Spinal/Epidural Headache

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

BLADEMDA

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
22,315
Reaction score
8,964
26 year old female status post Epidural for Labor. Healthy. Just delivered an hour ago. Bertelman (just teasting him a bit) got a "wet tap" putting her Epidural in about 7 hours ago. He went to another level and the insertion was uneventful.

Now, this 26 year old Jehovah's Witness has a bad headache. She wants it "fixed" prior to discharge and prefers NO BLOOD products including her own.

What is your plan Slim?

Members don't see this ad.
 
don't you treat it the same as you would a regular HA at first. ibuprofen, maybe caffeine. then put her in some trend to help to relieve the stretching of the dura, but relief would be positional.

isn't there like synthetic fibrin that's used by surgeons and it's liquid and they just pour that stuff on the oozing area and bam! no more oozing. so couldn't we theoretically use the same stuff instead of blood products to patch up her dura? blood patch first works by creating tamponade and then by making a fibrin clot...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Offer to do it with her blood remaining in circuit with her body entire time. Place "large bore IV" with sterile tubing handed to touhy holding mofo. Allow 10-20 cc to go into space with help of gravity (arm in air?). We have had a number of jehovah's allow cell saver if the blood remains in a circuit that is always in continuity with pt's vascular system. If she says no, IVF, caffeine, bed rest> sorry can't do anything else.


26 year old female status post Epidural for Labor. Healthy. Just delivered an hour ago. Bertelman (just teasting him a bit) got a "wet tap" putting her Epidural in about 7 hours ago. He went to another level and the insertion was uneventful.

Now, this 26 year old Jehovah's Witness has a bad headache. She wants it "fixed" prior to discharge and prefers NO BLOOD products including her own.

No blood at all> discuss with expert about non-human 'glues"

What is your plan Slim?
 
Last edited:
Offer to do it with her blood remaining in circuit with her body entire time. Place "large bore IV" with sterile tubing handed to touhy holding mofo. Allow 10-20 cc to go into space with help of gravity (arm in air?).

You serious? I never heard of that one. Have you tried it? It doesn't seem like there would be enough pressure generated. It would be cool though...
 
I would do my best Dr. House impersonation and tell her I'm religious tolerant and accept whatever made-up nonsense she wants to believe in, but I would then explain that if she puts aside her voodoo for a few minutes I could treat her headache. After that I would begin calling recruiters to preemptively have some work lined before I am told I need to start looking.
 
wait 24 hours post puncture. See if it resolves. Give her the whole conservative therapy and self resolution spiel. If that doesnt work try dextran, but tell her that it doesnt have the proven efficacy of a blood patch (i.e. decent chance it wont work).
 
I would do my best Dr. House impersonation and tell her I'm religious tolerant and accept whatever made-up nonsense she wants to believe in, but I would then explain that if she puts aside her voodoo for a few minutes I could treat her headache. After that I would begin calling recruiters to preemptively have some work lined before I am told I need to start looking.

Funny.

So far we have outlined the usual plan for a post-dural puncture headache:

1. Conservative treatment- Bedrest, Caffeine, fluids, etc.

2. Fibrin Glue

3. Dextran or Hextend/Hespan

4. Continuous Loop for her own blood


Anyone care to expound on the success rates for 1-4? Anyone want to add another "medication" option for choice 1?

What is the approach (type of drug and volume) for choice 2?

What is the approach for choice 3?

Please suggest a PRACTICAL method for choice 4 and describe your approach.
 
Conventional treatment or epidural blood patch for the treatment of different etiologies of post dural puncture headache.

Sandesc D, Lupei MI, Sirbu C, Plavat C, Bedreag O, Vernic C.
University County Hospital, Department of Anesthesia and Intensive Care, Victor Babes University of Medicine and Pharmacy, Timisoara, Romania. [email protected]
Post dural puncture headache (PDPH) represents a complication of anesthesia (with an increased incidence in obstetric patients) or as the consequence of a diagnostic lumbar puncture. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the efficacy of the epidural blood-patch (EBP) versus the conventional medical treatment of post-anesthetic headaches also including the PDPH following a diagnostic puncture, a category of patients rarely referred to the anesthesia consultation in our hospital because it was believed that they might have equal benefit from conventional measures due to the smaller size of needles used. We studied in a prospective, randomized, double-blinded manner 32 obstetric and non-obstetric patients with PDPH having the onset of the symptoms 24 hours before the inclusion in the study. The patients were randomly divided in two groups: group A (16 patients) receiving conventional treatment (oral and intravenous fluid replacement, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs--NSAIDs--, caffeine) and group B (16 patients) in whom an epidural blood-patch was performed. The intensity of the headache was evaluated using a visual analogue scale (VAS) from 0-10, before, 2 hours and 24 hours after the EBP. There were no statistical differences concerning the demographic data and the cause of PDPH between the groups (p > 0.05). The intensity of PDPH was similar before performing the EBP (p > 0.05), with a value on VAS of 8.2 +/- 1,4. in group A and 8,0 +/- 1.6 in group B. Two hours after the treatment, the intensity of headache on VAS diminished extremely significant (p < 0.0001): in group B the value was 1.0 +/- 0,18 versus 8.2 +/- 1.4 in group A. The difference recorded after 24 hours remained statistically significant (p < 0.0001): the VAS scores were 0.7 +/- 0,16 and 7.8 +/- 1.2 respectively. The epidural blood patch represents the first choice treatment of PDPH no matter the etiology, being significantly superior to the conventional treatment which did not affect pain scores. In severe PDPH there is no reason to delay the EBP more than 24 hours after the diagnosis as all except two patients of the conventional treatment group required blood patching following the study period.
 
Anesthesiology:
August 1999 - Volume 91 - Issue 2 - pp 576-577
Case Reports

Epidural Fibrin Glue Injection Stops Persistent Postdural Puncture Headache

Crul, Ben J. P. MD, PhD; Gerritse, Bastiaan M. MD; van Dongen, Robert T. M. MD, PhD; Schoonderwaldt, Hennie C. MD, PhD

Free Access




Article Outline
Author Information



(Crul) Professor of Pain Management, Institute for Anesthesiology.
(Gerritse) Staff Member in Anesthesiology, Institute for Anesthesiology.
(van Dongen) Staff Member in Pain Management, Institute for Anesthesiology.
(Schoonderwaldt) Staff Member, Department of Neurology.
Received from the University Hospital Nijmegen, Nijmegen, The Netherlands. Submitted for publication November 16, 1998. Accepted for publication April 6, 1999. Support was provided solely from institutional and/or departmental sources.
Address reprint requests to Prof. Dr. Crul: Institute for Anesthesiology, University Hospital Nijmegen, Geert Grooteplein 10, 6500 GM Nijmegen, The Netherlands. Address electronic mail to: [email protected]



RECENTLY we reported the successful treatment of persistent cerebrospinal fluid leak during long-term intrathecal catheterization with the epidural injection of fibrin glue (Tissucol, duo 500; Immuno AG, Vienna, Austria) in three patients with preterminal cancer who had severe pain. [1] In this case report, we describe the successful treatment of persistent postdural puncture headache in a woman after spinal anesthesia.

Back to Top | Article Outline
Case Report

A 29-yr-old woman was scheduled for ligament repair of the right knee and removal of osteosynthesis material in the right tibia under spinal anesthesia. After three attempts, lumbar puncture with a 25-gauge pencil-point needle was successful. Spinal anesthesia was instituted with 3.5 ml bupivacaine (plain), 0.5%. Anesthesia and surgery were uncomplicated. Six hours after surgery, the patient experienced a neck ache radiating into the occipital region accompanied by nausea and vomiting. Sitting up aggravated the symptoms. Because of these problems, the patient was kept in the hospital for one night. She was sent home the next and advised to remain in bed, drink fluids, and take acetaminophen orally.
Her headache did not subside, so it was decided on day 2 after surgery to administer an epidural injection of 10 ml autologous blood between spinal levels L3 and L4. During injection, the patient experienced severe back pain radiating to her left leg. After this therapy, the headache pain lessened. She tried to resume work 8 days after surgery. This resulted in a full recurrence of her pain, nausea, vomiting, and dizziness, forcing her to interrupt her work as a physical therapist. After another week at home, the patient had not improved, so she was referred to a neurologist, who could not identify any other causes of her symptoms and confirmed the diagnosis of postdural puncture headache. Because the patient was reluctant to have another epidural blood patch, full bed rest for 3 weeks and an ample fluid intake and acetaminophen (as needed) were again advised. Although the patient complied with this regimen, she continued to have posture-related headache, nausea, vomiting, and dizziness.
These problems were still present 5 weeks after surgery. She was readmitted to the hospital for clinical observation and treatment. Epidural blood patches were repeated twice, but with no improvement. Because of this situation, which was characterized as "desperate" by the patient and her treating physicians, neurosurgical repair by laminectomy and duraplasty was considered.
Our University Hospital Pain Clinic was asked for a consultation. Magnetic resonance imaging showed a small midline hernia of the intervertebral disc between the third and fourth lumbar vertebral, without compression of the contents of the dural sac. We advised the intravenous use of adrenocortropic hormone, [2] but that had no beneficial effect. Given the seriousness of the patient's problems, the imminence of a neurosurgical intervention, and the good results obtained with epidural injection of fibrin glue in patients with persistent leak of cerebrospinal fluid, an analogous approach in this patient was proposed.
She was informed about the scarce experience with the technique, and we emphasized the fact that no data were present about specific risks. After the patient gave her consent, an epidural injection between levels L3 and L4 was performed with 3 ml fibrin glue. To identify the epidural space, the loss-of-resistance technique was applied using a 19-gauge Tuohy needle. During the (slow) injection of fibrin glue, the patient was in the left recumbent position. Again, she experienced some backache with irradiation to her left leg.
During the first 24 h after injection, the patient remained in a horizontal recumbent position. She was asked to avoid coughing and Valsalva maneuvers during the first 24 h. A stool softener was administered orally.
After 24 h, the patient was mobilized. Her posture-related headache had disappeared fully. In addition, nausea and dizziness were absent. Gradually, she resumed her daily activities. No recurrence of postdural puncture headache-related complaints occurred. In a follow-up telephone call 7 months after surgery, she reported that her headache had not returned and she no complaints attributable to the injection of fibrin glue.

Back to Top | Article Outline
Discussion

Fibrin glue is a preparation of pooled human plasma obtained from plasmapheresis. It is prepared by mixing two solutions. The first one contains fibrinogen, factor XIII, fibronectin, aprotinin, and plasminogen; the second one contains thrombin and calcium. When these solutions are mixed, fibrinogen is converted to fibrin monomers, which aggregate and form a gel. [3] Fibrin glue has a high tensile strength and tolerates highly moist environments. The fibrin clot forms a temporary biological seal of the dura until healing occurs. [4] Fibrin glue is widely applied in otology and neurosurgery as a method to achieve a watertight dural closure. [5] It has proved to be a satisfactory technique for stopping cerebrospinal fluid leakage in a series of 20 consecutive craniofacial resections with dural defects. [6] Percutaneous fibrin sealing also has been applied successfully in cases of subcutaneous cerebrospinal fluid fistulae after operations to the brain and the spinal cord, [7] thereby obviating repeated operation. Fibrin glue clots do not retract, because of the lack of corpuscular blood components. The fibrin in the clot also has a special affinity for collagen fibers. There are no signs of an inflammatory response. Dural specimens examined after application of fibrin glue showed a clot adhering to the epidural side. [8]
Using a product of biological origin implies a potential risk of viral infection. However, no cases have been documented of viral transmission using fibrin glue (as manufactured by Immuno AG). The manufacturer uses a recombinant DNA technique to identify viral contamination, which allows detection of very low viral load. [9]
The routine treatment of cerebrospinal fluid leak after dural puncture consists of initial conservative symptomatic treatment with progression to epidural injection of autologous blood, which can be repeated if necessary. [10-12] Since the epidural blood patch was introduced, [13] it has been applied widely and safely. Further examination of the epidural fibrin glue injection technique is necessary to place this treatment within the therapeutic armamentarium.
 
Epidural dextran
Despite the paucity of evidence to support epidural saline, some observers have considered the epidural administration of Dextran 40.117 Those studies that recommend Dextran 40, either as an infusion or as a bolus, conclude that the high molecular weight and viscosity of Dextran 40 slows its removal from the epidural space. The sustained tamponade around the dural perforation allows spontaneous closure. However, it is unlikely that Dextran 40 will act any differently to saline in the epidural space. Any pressure rise within the subarachnoid space would, like saline, be only transient. Histological inspection of the epidural space after administration of Dextran 40,74 does not demonstrate any inflammatory response that would promote the healing process. The evidence for the administration of epidural Dextran to treat post-dural puncture headache is not proven and the theoretical argument to justify its use is poor.
Epidural, intrathecal and parenteral opioids
A number of authors have advocated the use of epidural,42 intrathecal20 or parenteral morphine;41 the majority of these reports are either case reports or inadequately controlled trials. Some of the studies used epidural morphine after the onset of headache, others used epidural or intrathecal morphine as prophylaxis or in combination with an intrathecal catheter.20 A controlled trial of intrathecal fentanyl as prophylaxis found no evidence of a reduction in the incidence of post-spinal headache after dural puncture with a 25-gauge spinal needle.31 Fibrin glue
Alternative agents to blood, such as fibrinous glue, have been proposed to repair spinal dural perforations.48 Cranial dural perforations are frequently repaired successfully with it. In the case of lumbar dural perforation, the fibrin glue may be placed blindly or using CT-guided percutaneous injection.92 There is, however, a risk of the development of aseptic meningitis with this procedure.111 In addition, manufacturers have recently warned against the application of some types of tissue glue where it may be exposed to nervous tissue.110
 
Simple
Bed rest has been shown to be of no benefit.118 Supportive therapy such as rehydration, acetaminophen, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, opioids, and antiemetics may control the symptoms and so reduce the need for more aggressive therapy,89 but do not provide complete relief.44


Duration
The largest follow-up of post-dural puncture headache is still that of Vandam and Dripps in 1956.132 They reported that 72% of headaches resolved within 7 days, and 87% had resolved in 6 months (Table 3). The duration of the headache has remained unchanged since that reported in 1956.26 In a minority of patients the headache can persist.133 Indeed, case reports have described the persistence of headache for as long as 1&#8211;8 yr after dural puncture.80 It is interesting to note that even post-dural puncture headaches of this duration have been successfully treated with an epidural blood patch.72


http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/91/5/718#AEG231C89
 
Last edited:
Funny.

So far we have outlined the usual plan for a post-dural puncture headache:

1. Conservative treatment- Bedrest, Caffeine, fluids, etc.

2. Fibrin Glue

3. Dextran or Hextend/Hespan

4. Continuous Loop for her own blood


Anyone care to expound on the success rates for 1-4? Anyone want to add another "medication" option for choice 1?

What is the approach (type of drug and volume) for choice 2?

What is the approach for choice 3?

Please suggest a PRACTICAL method for choice 4 and describe your approach.

I honestly don't know, i don't even know if it's used for that, I just made it up to be honest. but one would assume it stays in liquid form for at least a min or two so mix it up and fill a syringe with it. Since volume is the most important property of the substance used i would say use the same volume as with a blood patch, i.e. 20cc.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
just read the pasted articles.. i am kind of surprised my wacky idea works, lol. thanks for the article Blade.
 
just read the pasted articles.. i am kind of surprised my wacky idea works, lol. thanks for the article Blade.




Anesth Analg. 2002 Aug;95(2):423-9, table of contents. Links

The mechanisms of intracranial pressure modulation by epidural blood and other injectates in a postdural puncture rat model.

Kroin JS, Nagalla SK, Buvanendran A, McCarthy RJ, Tuman KJ, Ivankovich AD.
Department of Anesthesiology, Rush Medical College at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center, Chicago, Illinois 60612, USA. [email protected]
The epidural blood patch is considered effective in treating postdural puncture headache. We have developed a postdural puncture model in rats for quantitative evaluation of the magnitude and duration of changes in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) pressure in the cisterna magna in response to the administration of epidural blood or other moieties. This model was used to compare the efficacy of various methods of epidural injection for restoring and maintaining CSF pressure for up to 240 min. After lumbar dural puncture, CSF pressure declined 3.6 +/- 0.2 mm Hg. Epidural saline (100 microL) injected at the puncture site initially increased pressure by 7.2 +/- 0.7 mm Hg, but it rapidly (7.8 +/- 0.6 min) returned to postdural puncture baseline. A similar initial increase of CSF pressure was observed with equal volumes of all other epidural injectates, but the duration of pressure increase varied greatly. Hetastarch and dextran 40 produced results similar to saline. Only whole blood or fibrin glue consistently increased CSF pressure for the entire 240-min observation period. Whole blood mixed with anticoagulant or injected 20-mm cephalad to the puncture site did not sustain pressure. After laminectomy, direct application of blood or adhesive to the dural defect caused no pressure increase. Continuous infusion of saline after bolus could maintain pressure increase for 180 min, but within 60 min of stopping infusion, pressure returned to baseline. These results confirm the efficacy of the epidural administration of blood or fibrin glue to correct CSF hypotension after dural puncture and also provide insight into the mechanisms of intracranial pressure modulation. Sealing the dural defect does not effectively correct CSF pressure unless an epidural tamponade effect is also maintained. IMPLICATIONS: A rat model was developed to evaluate different drugs that may be injected epidurally to treat postdural puncture headache. Epidural injection of blood or fibrin glue was the most effective method of maintaining increased cerebrospinal fluid pressure after dural puncture. Sealing the dural defect does not effectively correct cerebrospinal fluid pressure unless an epidural tamponade effect is maintained.
 
26 year old female status post Epidural for Labor. Healthy. Just delivered an hour ago. Bertelman (just teasting him a bit) got a "wet tap" putting her Epidural in about 7 hours ago. He went to another level and the insertion was uneventful.

Now, this 26 year old Jehovah's Witness has a bad headache. She wants it "fixed" prior to discharge and prefers NO BLOOD products including her own.

What is your plan Slim?

I'm not committed to the diagnosis of PDPH a mere 7 hours post-puncture. Although 2/3 of patients will have onset within 24 hours, I don't believe many of those occur within 8 (just spent 20 minutes digging through my stack of articles looking for that reference but didn't find it). She gets a history and exam including vitals, then probably fluids and a NSAID. Tomorrow I'll entertain the possibility of a PDPH. Seems like most of the time these early onset "PDPH" complaints resolve after a big greasy hit of Taco Bell makes them not-NPO.


BLADEMDA said:
Anyone want to try some other types of medications besides caffeine?

Sumatriptan 6 mg SQ or ACTH infusion (1.5 mcg/kg infused over 30 min) have been described but I have no experience with them.

Theophylline has been mentioned as a methylxanthine alternative to caffeine ... do JW's refuse caffeine too?
 
If she agrees to continuity argument (which I have had two JW agree to this year) > Place a stopcock with a syringe on each end of IV tubing. 1st syringe : pull blood from AC, then push through tubing, chase with NS or dextran if you need a column of fluid> use stopcock at end with touhy to pull blood thru tubing then push into body. Never said it was easy. It might work and it satisfies some of them. Of course, I would maximize conservative Tx first. Focused on blood patch because that is the big deal here...

Funny.

So far we have outlined the usual plan for a post-dural puncture headache:

1. Conservative treatment- Bedrest, Caffeine, fluids, etc.

2. Fibrin Glue

3. Dextran or Hextend/Hespan

4. Continuous Loop for her own blood


Anyone care to expound on the success rates for 1-4? Anyone want to add another "medication" option for choice 1?

What is the approach (type of drug and volume) for choice 2?

What is the approach for choice 3?

Please suggest a PRACTICAL method for choice 4 and describe your approach.
 
I had a spinal headache this week. No, not my patient, I... me... had a spinal headache. The worst day was around day 3 or 4 after I had been up a lot, and it was gone around day 6. I did all of the conservative measures (hydration, indocin prescribed for the surgery, lying down, and about a gallon of Diet Coke q 24) and they worked, but I can't tell you specifically which had the greatest effect.

The lesson learned from this was if you see a deer in the headlights looking CA-1 in your OR and it's only September, DO NOT allow Versed in the room. I asked the fellow who was doing the blocks, and he said he (the fellow) was. The last words I remember hearing were "Here's some Versed... and here's some Fentanyl...." Fade to recovery.

So did I simply get a common complication that often occurs despite excellent technique, or did the CA-1 finally have success on his 14th pass with a 22G cutting needle? I'll never know.
 
Anybody ever notice that the easier the spinal placement is, the more likely the patient will get a PDP HA? I've done some spinals were it was smooth as silk with one attempt, and I truly mean one attempt with no redirecting of the needle whatsoever. The next day I go see them postop, low and behold, they have a headache. The ones that I struggle with and think to myself that they are sure going to have a headache tomorrow, don't usually have them.

My theory is that the more difficult and more attempts there are, more blood enters the area surrounding the dural puncture site and in a sense serves as a mini blood patch.

Anyone else has experienced this?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My theory is that the more difficult and more attempts there are, more blood enters the area surrounding the dural puncture site and in a sense serves as a mini blood patch.

Interesting theory. Sounds plausible enough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If she agrees to continuity argument (which I have had two JW agree to this year) > Place a stopcock with a syringe on each end of IV tubing. 1st syringe : pull blood from AC, then push through tubing, chase with NS or dextran if you need a column of fluid> use stopcock at end with touhy to pull blood thru tubing then push into body. Never said it was easy. It might work and it satisfies some of them. Of course, I would maximize conservative Tx first. Focused on blood patch because that is the big deal here...


So, I used an approach similar to yours. I talked her into a "continuous loop/circuit" of her arterial blood into her back.

I place an a-line and used tubing/stopcocks/syringes to keep the loop continuous once I started allowing blood to flow from the artery. I injected 24 ml's of blood into her lumbar space.
 
How much blood do you use? Why?

How many blood patches are you willing to do on this patient assuming the first one fails?

What is your quoted success rate for one patch? For the second patch?
 
Can anybody elaborate about the continuity issue? Why aren't JW simply allowing their own blood to be withdrawn and injected?
I've had an ICU patient who had autologous blood transfusions for his big abdominal surgery ( didn't help him, though) - obviously no continuous blood flow exists in 2 units of stored PRBCs.
 
So, I used an approach similar to yours. I talked her into a "continuous loop/circuit" of her arterial blood into her back.

I place an a-line and used tubing/stopcocks/syringes to keep the loop continuous once I started allowing blood to flow from the artery. I injected 24 ml's of blood into her lumbar space.

Why did you choose arterial blood?
 
Can anybody elaborate about the continuity issue? Why aren't JW simply allowing their own blood to be withdrawn and injected?
I've had an ICU patient who had autologous blood transfusions for his big abdominal surgery ( didn't help him, though) - obviously no continuous blood flow exists in 2 units of stored PRBCs.

Like any other religion, there is a spectrum of what they believe in, how they interpret the doctrines. Some believe that once it has left the body, it is prohibited. Others are OK as long as it is their own. Some accept cellsaver, others do not. It's a discussion that has to be clarified before the operation.
 
Like any other religion, there is a spectrum of what they believe in, how they interpret the doctrines. Some believe that once it has left the body, it is prohibited. Others are OK as long as it is their own. Some accept cellsaver, others do not. It's a discussion that has to be clarified before the operation.

I know, I do not question the religious taboos - I was just surprised that people of the same religion have different approach - since I have never heard before that in order to get even your own blood you need to have it in the continuous flow - like my patient who refused to have any blood transfusions later and died in the SICU ( actually was a withdrawal of care) but donated his own blood so it can be transfused during his abdominal surgery ( was not enough at all).

Since I may encounter a JW with a PDPH as well who will refuse to have a blood patch - I would like to find out WHY actually they refuse it and how to approach the issue of proposing the continuous flow without any hint of paternalism or criticism.
 
Last edited:
Since I may encounter a JW with a PDPH as well who will refuse to have a blood patch - I would like to find out WHY actually they refuse it and how to approach the issue of proposing the continuous flow without any hint of paternalism or criticism.


As I understand it, their preferences for refusal of such a procedure relies on the interpretation of dogma by their leader, or guiding voice, or whatever it may be called. Thus, there is often little bargaining to be had with the patient. If they refuse, and you feel strongly that the b.p. will help, I would involve their religious elder.

Another example is when this involves peds cases. The JW adult denies transfusions for their child. If it is determined that this life-saving intervention is required, we will frequently obtain a court order to transfuse. From what I have been told, these families are often relieved that the court order was obtained, because it saves their child's life without losing respect in the eyes of the religious leaders. From that example, I would say that you have little hope of "convincing" a JW that your continuous b.p. complies with their religious belief. You may just have to consult with their leader.

As for sounding paternalistic, you should learn to avoid that regardless of what the conversation is about. That has more to do with how you speak than what knowledge you possess.
 
JW patients routinely undergo CABG with CPB. This invloves a "continuous loop" as it is necessary to do the case. Thus, precedent has been established that most JW religous leaders agree with the loop.
 
JW patients routinely undergo CABG with CPB. This invloves a "continuous loop" as it is necessary to do the case. Thus, precedent has been established that most JW religous leaders agree with the loop.

How very convenient.
 
JW patients routinely undergo CABG with CPB. This invloves a "continuous loop" as it is necessary to do the case. Thus, precedent has been established that most JW religous leaders agree with the loop.

Hmmm, not to be too cynical, but sounds to me like maybe the first religious leader to interpret this doctrine had Coronary Artery Disease.
 
I agree, but if you are going to go there, be prepared to be asked why your religion isn't irrational?

The last thing I want to do is derail this thread into a trainwreck of a religious debate, but for the record, I'm an atheist. I'm quite comfortable dismissing their superstitions as irrational - at least, I am on a semi-anonymous online forum. In person I'm polite. And my lack of superstition is the very definition of "not irrational" ...

Provided there's no public health issue involved (eg a patient with MDR TB), it really doesn't matter why patients refuse treatment. Whether they refuse because Suzanne Somers said medicine is poison or because their holy person of choice said they'd burn in hell, all you can do is inform them. If they're (legally) competent adults, they can choose to die by refusing treatment. If the patient is a minor and mom and dad favor a clean death over an impure life, you call the hospital ethics committee and let them release the houn^H^H^H^Hlawyers.
 
How much blood do you use? Why?

How many blood patches are you willing to do on this patient assuming the first one fails?

What is your quoted success rate for one patch? For the second patch?


Any Fellows/Residents/Superstars care to answer the above "Oral Board" question?

How many blood patches are you willing to perform for a PDPH? What is your quoted "success rate' after one patch? After two? After three???:eek:
 
BLADEMDA said:
How much blood do you use? Why?

My target is 20 mL but I stop when patient complains of pain. Most of the more recent studies I've seen have had mean volumes in the 15 mL range.

The first patches were done with only a few cc. Chestnut references one old study showing relief after 10 mL in 41 of 45 patients but goes on to say that another study with 20 mL had greater success rates.

I rarely get all 20 mL in before stopping because of patient discomfort. Most of my patients get 10-15 and it works. I think most would agree that you should stop when it hurts and that there are diminishing returns beyond 15-20 mL.

BLADEMDA said:
How many blood patches are you willing to do on this patient assuming the first one fails?

If I was certain of the diagnosis, I'd do a second one 24h later (of course after a re-exam of the patient).

I would not do a 3rd; at this point you're looking at ~1% (10% of 10%) of the patient population that has a persistent headache (at least 48h total) after two patches. I would not continue to assume the cause of her pain was just a hole in the dura. Such a patient would get a workup & treatment plan from somebody who's not me.

BLADEMDA said:
What is your quoted success rate for one patch? For the second patch?

The most often quoted figures are 90% for the first, and if it fails, a 2nd patch 24h later also has a 90% success rate.

Although we should consider that the 90% success rate may be a bit optimistic as anesthesiologists tend to not be the most meticulous people when it comes to follow-up. These guys mailed out questionnaires and found only a 61% permanent cure despite initial resolution of symptoms in 88-96%. It seems likely that a lot of people out there have a recurrence and don't come back to the people who already drove two needles into their backs. Meanwhile, we're sitting around feeling good about ourselves for curing their headaches.
 
Epidural blood patch was performed after a median delay of 4 days (range, 1-53 days) after dural puncture. The vertebral space where the EBP was performed is depicted in figure 2. The mean volume of blood injected was 23 ± 5 ml. Discomfort occurred in 391 cases (78%) after administration of a blood volume of 19 ± 5 ml. Pain occurred in 274 cases (54%) after administration of a blood volume of 21 ± 5 ml and was always preceded by discomfort, which was noted after administration of a blood volume of 18 ± 5 ml. Patients who experienced discomfort received a lower blood volume (22 ± 5 vs. 25 ± 4 ml;P < 0.001) as well as those who experienced pain (21 ± 4 vs. 24 ± 4 ml;P < 0.001). Only one variable was an independent risk factor for pain during EBP: age less than 35 yr (odds ratio, 2.00; 95% CI, 1.55-2.58;P < 0.001). The correlation between the height of the patients and the epidural injected blood volume inducing lumbar discomfort or pain is depicted in figure 3.



In our study, the mean blood volume injected in the lumbar epidural space was not significantly different in groups of patients with success or failure of the EBP. This suggests that the volume of blood injected does not appear to influence significantly the success of the treatment. The optimal recommended volume of blood that should be injected during an EBP is also controversial and has tended to increase over time. Gormley 11 initially injected 2 or 3 ml of blood in the epidural space and reported a success in all seven of his patients. Other studies have reported an increase incidence of failure rate or relapse of the symptoms when EBPs were performed using a volume lower than 10 ml. 24,25 Taivainen et al.27 compared different volumes (10-15 ml) of blood and could not detect any advantage of larger volumes. Using a blood volume of 20 ml, Crawford 26 observed a 96% success rate. Although there is no consensus about the optimal EBP volume to inject, the tendency is to use approximately 20 ml. According to proposed EBP mechanisms of action, its efficiency might increase as the amount of blood injected increases, a small volume being unable to cover the dura mater opening or restore CSF pressure. In our study, the mean volume of blood injected during EBP was effective in the treatment of PDPH. It was a little larger than those reported in the literature and did not explain the cases of EBP failure observed in our patients. Further studies are required to determine if lower volumes are associated with such a high level of success.


http://journals.lww.com/anesthesiol...veness_of_Epidural_Blood_Patch_in_the.12.aspx
 
In a series of 504 patients, we confirmed that EBP is an effective treatment for symptoms of CSF leak after dura mater puncture, with 75% showing complete relief of symptoms and only 7% failure. Moreover, we observed that the increasing diameter of the needle causing the dural puncture and the decreasing delay between dural puncture and EBP realization were the two predictive factors of failure of EBP.
The effectiveness of a first EBP to treat PDPH was high in our study when both complete and incomplete relief of symptoms (93%) were considered as a success, as previously reported. 2,25,26 When only complete relief was considered, the success rate of the EBP was of 75% in our series, in accordance with findings reported by Vercauteren et al. 10 The reported EBP effectiveness in the literature remains highly variable because some investigators consider only total relief from symptoms as success, whereas others include incomplete relief of symptoms. Otherwise, the populations of patients and the EBP methods used are different between the studies, and these points can explain different results.


In conclusion, lumbar EBP was an effective treatment of severe PDPH, leading to the relief of symptoms in 93% of the patients after one EBP and in 97% of cases after a second EBP. A large diameter (< 20 gauge) of the needle causing dural puncture was a predictive factor of failure of EBP in treating PDPH. In deliberate dural puncture, it is important to use a needle of small diameter to decrease PDPH 1 and potentially EBP effectiveness if the technique is needed.
 
So, I used an approach similar to yours. I talked her into a "continuous loop/circuit" of her arterial blood into her back.

I place an a-line and used tubing/stopcocks/syringes to keep the loop continuous once I started allowing blood to flow from the artery. I injected 24 ml's of blood into her lumbar space.

Had a resident friend use a similar approach recently. 18ga PIV with a-line extension tubing, stopcock and more tubing, placed epidural, withdrew through stopcock and then injected keeping a continuous circuit. Pt. received great relief and had no objection to the set-up since it was a continuous circuit.
 
26 year old female status post Epidural for Labor. Healthy. Just delivered an hour ago. Bertelman (just teasting him a bit) got a "wet tap" putting her Epidural in about 7 hours ago. He went to another level and the insertion was uneventful.

Now, this 26 year old Jehovah's Witness has a bad headache. She wants it "fixed" prior to discharge and prefers NO BLOOD products including her own.

What is your plan Slim?



IV caffeine, ACTH, fioricet, and send home.........
 
Top