Stand Your Ground Law

[Dwindlin]

I can't wrap my head around the fact that you're so quick to affirm Martin's escalation of the situation while being so quick to condemn Zimmerman for his escalation of the situation.

You've made it pretty clear that

1. You haven't been following the case and don't know many of the facts.
2. You feel race is the larger issue at hand.
3. You continue to bring in a metaphorical strawman argument that had race been reversed, Zimmerman would be convicted regardless of evidence.
4. Because of 3, they should convict Zimmerman without question (despite your admission of #1).

Fess up dude, either you're being intentionally obtuse in order to troll this thread or you have some deep seeded racial anger issues.

Number 1 may be true. But he's right about 2 - 4. Arguing on this forum is all fine and dandy, but the real world is much closer to Telekinesis's beliefs. Not saying it's right, or the way it should be. But it is. This case (as all jury cases are) will be decided by a group of people who are by nature emotional beings, and in all likely hood will not separate emotion and feeling from their decisions.

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[Telekinesis]

I can't wrap my head around the fact that you're so quick to affirm Martin's escalation of the situation while being so quick to condemn Zimmerman for his escalation of the situation.

You've made it pretty clear that

1. You haven't been following the case and don't know many of the facts.
2. You feel race is the larger issue at hand.
3. You continue to bring in a metaphorical strawman argument that had race been reversed, Zimmerman would be convicted regardless of evidence.
4. Because of 3, they should convict Zimmerman without question (despite your admission of #1).

Fess up dude, either you're being intentionally obtuse in order to troll this thread or you have some deep seeded racial anger issues.

Read the whole thread before you pass judgement. I agreed with someone earlier.

I don't have race issues I just know what's it's like living as a black man in the south and I'm adopted with white parents. I still get prejudged constantly with my shirt tucked in and my clean cut haircut. So until you can understand what it is to be black don't say I have anger issues.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Read the whole thread before you pass judgement. I agreed with someone earlier.

I don't have race issues I just know what's it's like living as a black man in the south and I'm adopted with white parents. I still get prejudged constantly with my shirt tucked in and my clean cut haircut. So until you can understand what it is to be black don't say I have anger issues.

I agree with you. White people are either scared of blacks or just don't like them way too often. I've seen it first hand here in the South. While I don't agree wth it people can and do judge based on race.

But, your shirt tucked in, regular dental work and a nice hair cut certainly helps a lot of borderline white people feel more comfortable (again this refers to strangers who don't know you).

But, the vast majority of Southerners value all human life and wouldn't take a person's life easily. GZ looks Hispanic/Mexican and would not be viewed as a white guy by most People.
GZ likely experienced some discrimination in his life as well although not likely to the degree of a Black American.

Being Back in America has a lot of negatives but society has progressed significantly in terms of racial justice and equality. There is more work to be done but the progress since MLK has been astonishing.

We need a color blind society but right now all we have is a color blind Judicial system where everyone is equal under the law.

That is why the jury must acquit GZ.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Some are speculating on a hung jury based on the Mansaughter charge. Jury will likely acquit GZ of second degree murder but the Manslaughter charge may end up with a divided verdict.

Would the state retry GZ on manslaughter only?

 

[Telekinesis]

I agree with you. White people are either scared of blacks or just don't like them way too often. I've seen it first hand here in the South. While I don't agree wth it people can and do judge based on race.

But, your shirt tucked in, regular dental work and a nice hair cut certainly helps a lot of borderline white people feel more comfortable (again this refers to strangers who don't know you).

But, the vast majority of Southerners value all human life and wouldn't take a person's life easily. GZ looks Hispanic/Mexican and would not be viewed as a white guy by most People.
GZ likely experienced some discrimination in his life as well although not likely to the degree of a Black American.

Being Back in America has a lot of negatives but society has progressed significantly in terms of racial justice and equality. There is more work to be done but the progress since MLK has been astonishing.

We need a color blind society but right now all we have is a color blind Judicial system where everyone is equal under the law.

That is why the jury must acquit GZ.

I agree whole heartedly with everything you said. I'm big on appearance and was raised that way. But do you honestly believe the justice system is color blind? I mean it's the best in the world I give you that but it's not without it's faults.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I agree whole heartedly with everything you said. I'm big on appearance and was raised that way. But do you honestly believe the justice system is color blind? I mean it's the best in the world I give you that but it's not without it's faults.

I believe that a good lawyer can help select an impartial jury who will weigh the evidence fairly. If anything too many criminals (white mostly) get away with heinous crimes due to a solid defense team. The only reason more Black Americas don't get away with crimes is that they can't afford the legal defense necessary to inject doubt into the case. But, when wealthy Blacks get tried for crimes they walk just as often as white people.

Remember: "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit"?

 

[Telekinesis]

I believe that a good lawyer can help select an impartial jury who will weigh the evidence fairly. If anything too many criminals (white mostly) get away with heinous crimes due to a solid defense team. The only reason more Black Americas don't get away with crimes is that they can't afford the legal defense necessary to inject doubt into the case. But, when wealthy Blacks get tried for crimes they walk just as often as white people.

Remember: "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit"?

I agree with this as well.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I agree with this as well.

The color that matters most these days is Green.

 

[periopdoc]

I mean it's the best in the world I give you that but it's not without it's faults.

I prefer to think of it as the worst system in the world, except for all the others.


- pod

 

[loveoforganic2]

I believe that a good lawyer can help select an impartial jury who will weigh the evidence fairly. If anything too many criminals (white mostly) get away with heinous crimes due to a solid defense team. The only reason more Black Americas don't get away with crimes is that they can't afford the legal defense necessary to inject doubt into the case. But, when wealthy Blacks get tried for crimes they walk just as often as white people.

Remember: "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit"?

I'm not up on the research, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if there's a source of discrimination at the LEO and DA level (where an individual is more or less in control and his/her biases are relatively unchecked).

I prefer to think of it as the worst system in the world, except for all the others.


- pod

I like this

While we're on a tangent, as someone who generally leans on the side of less government, I think privatized prison systems are a major source of soooooooo many problems

 

[FiremedicMike]

Read the whole thread before you pass judgement. I agreed with someone earlier.

I don't have race issues I just know what's it's like living as a black man in the south and I'm adopted with white parents. I still get prejudged constantly with my shirt tucked in and my clean cut haircut. So until you can understand what it is to be black don't say I have anger issues.

No judgement passed necessarily, but you still didn't answer my question. Why are you so quick to affirm Martin's escalation of the scenario and so quick to condemn Zimmerman's escalation?

 

[Telekinesis]

No judgement passed necessarily, but you still didn't answer my question. Why are you so quick to affirm Martin's escalation of the scenario and so quick to condemn Zimmerman's escalation?

If Martin escalated legally he would be wrong. Martin should have phoned 911 if he felt threatened.

 

[FiremedicMike]

If Martin escalated legally he would be wrong. Martin should have phoned 911 if he felt threatened.

.. Or Martin escalated so rapidly that Zimmerman felt he needed to take deadly force and that fine motor skills such as dialing 911 on a cell phone were not possible?

 

[periopdoc]

If Martin escalated legally he would be wrong. Martin should have phoned 911 if he felt threatened.

I disagree.

If Martin felt threatened he most certainly was legally within his rights to escalate to the level of violence necessary to terminate a reasonably perceived threat by Zimmerman. Certainly a 911 call would have been a better option, but he wasn't legally required to take that option in the face of an immenent threat.

Zimmerman's story is that M went beyond this and continued to batter Z after any possibility of threat from Z was terminated. Unfortunately Martin isn't here to tell his side of the story. The evidence does not dispute Z's account beyond reasonable doubt.

Ok that is not precisely Z's story, but if one wanted to claim that Z was the aggressor and M was defending himself (as allowed under Florida law) then there is a point at which the Z narrative takes over and he becomes the one defending himself. Confusing scenario which is probably why the defense never presented that hypothetical situation to the jury.

-pod

 

[Medicinewoman85]

I don't believe him either. This doesn't negate a self defense claim and neither did the prosecution.

I think he actually was trying to keep Martin in sight until the police arrived so that he could guide them there. I don't think that he left the car with the intention of confronting Martin personally. I am not sure who confronted who or surprised who.

However, what you and I think doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is did the prosecution prove that Zimmerman did not have a reasonable fear for his life when he killed Martin.

- pod

I have to admit I agree

 

[pgg]

I can't wrap my head around the fact that you're so quick to affirm Martin's escalation of the situation while being so quick to condemn Zimmerman for his escalation of the situation.

You've made it pretty clear that

1. You haven't been following the case and don't know many of the facts.
2. You feel race is the larger issue at hand.
3. You continue to bring in a metaphorical strawman argument that had race been reversed, Zimmerman would be convicted regardless of evidence.
4. Because of 3, they should convict Zimmerman without question (despite your admission of #1).

Fess up dude, either you're being intentionally obtuse in order to troll this thread or you have some deep seeded racial anger issues.

Well, 700+ posts into a thread that started well over a year ago, with opinions on both sides, some strong, some mild, some informed, some uninformed, mostly civil ... and the guy most fixated on race to the exclusion of everything else is the guy with the Boondocks avatar.


Yes, I avatar profile.

No, I'm not an angry maladjusted clown plotting revenge, why would you think that?

 

[pgg]

The only reason more Black Americas don't get away with crimes is that they can't afford the legal defense necessary to inject doubt into the case.

That's pretty clearly not correct, I think.

There is a huge prosecutorial bias against minorities, especially black people. Their high incarceration rate is not JUST that they tend to be poorer and unable to afford aggressive lawyers.

It's that the police tend to hang out in their neighborhoods more, arrest them more, they get charged with crimes more, and THEN their poor background comes into play in the form of ignorance of options, public defenders, bad plea bargains.

Whereas the non-minority in the quiet affluent suburb is a lot less likely to encounter cops in the first place. If he happens to get caught selling some weed to his friends the DA is far less likely to throw the book at him. If he gets in a fight after school it's more likely to be viewed as youthful shenanigans.


400 posts ago you were telling us this is no longer a racist nation because we elected a black guy, but I still disagree.

 

[etudiante04]

That's pretty clearly not correct, I think.

There is a huge prosecutorial bias against minorities, especially black people. Their high incarceration rate is not JUST that they tend to be poorer and unable to afford aggressive lawyers.

It's that the police tend to hang out in their neighborhoods more, arrest them more, they get charged with crimes more, and THEN their poor background comes into play in the form of ignorance of options, public defenders, bad plea bargains.

Whereas the non-minority in the quiet affluent suburb is a lot less likely to encounter cops in the first place. If he happens to get caught selling some weed to his friends the DA is far less likely to throw the book at him. If he gets in a fight after school it's more likely to be viewed as youthful shenanigans.


400 posts ago you were telling us this is no longer a racist nation because we elected a black guy, but I still disagree.

 

[periopdoc]

Appropriate to this thread is the rundown of what the jury must find given by Omara. A summary of which I am quoting from Andrew Branca at Legal Insurrection

In the context of self-defense he noted that the State must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that George Zimmerman did NOT act in self-defense. If the jury concluded that self-defense was likely in this case, their verdict must be not guilty. If they decided self defense was unlikely, but might have been? Not guilty. If they found self-defense was less than likely? Not guilty. Even if they decided that self-defense was highly unlikely in this case, but they retained a reasonable doubt–not guilty.

In terms of the criminal charge the State has to prove guilt to the exclusion of any reasonable doubt whatever. Only then may the jury return a verdict of guilty. Only then.

Emphasis added.

Branca has had the best coverage/analysis of the trial. I have enjoyed his daily run down of the whole spectacle.

- pod

 

[shibby1111]

my fear is still this jury of women will not make a distinction between defending against significant injury (which Zimmerman clearly didn't have) and threat of significant bodily harm or death (which was certainly present).

 

[BLADEMDA]

That's pretty clearly not correct, I think.

There is a huge prosecutorial bias against minorities, especially black people. Their high incarceration rate is not JUST that they tend to be poorer and unable to afford aggressive lawyers.

It's that the police tend to hang out in their neighborhoods more, arrest them more, they get charged with crimes more, and THEN their poor background comes into play in the form of ignorance of options, public defenders, bad plea bargains.

Whereas the non-minority in the quiet affluent suburb is a lot less likely to encounter cops in the first place. If he happens to get caught selling some weed to his friends the DA is far less likely to throw the book at him. If he gets in a fight after school it's more likely to be viewed as youthful shenanigans.


400 posts ago you were telling us this is no longer a racist nation because we elected a black guy, but I still disagree.

The are racist people in the USA both Black and White. But, we are no longer a racist nation. In fact, one of the worst things you can call someone these days is a bigot or racist.

I also don't believe our justice system is biased against blacks as much as it is biased against the poor and uneducated.

 

[BLADEMDA]

my fear is still this jury of women will not make a distinction between defending against significant injury (which Zimmerman clearly didn't have) and threat of significant bodily harm or death (which was certainly present).

Watch out for the Manslaughter charge. I think there could be a hung jury on that lesser charge.

 

[acceptmeplease]

I think there's a good chance at a mistrial if he does get manslaughter.. How is that a jury of his peers when there's not a single Y chromosome in the jury?

 

[BLADEMDA]

Trayvon Martin:

The teen was suspended from school three times
He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue
Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry
Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness

 

[Dwindlin]

I think there's a good chance at a mistrial if he does get manslaughter.. How is that a jury of his peers when there's not a single Y chromosome in the jury?

The human race is your peers in the eyes of the court. We argue the same thing when it comes to malpractice cases that go to jury trial. You think there is ever a physician in those juries?

 

[periopdoc]

I think there's a good chance at a mistrial if he does get manslaughter.. How is that a jury of his peers when there's not a single Y chromosome in the jury?

There were multiple reversible issues in this trial. This was not one of them.

In fact, this was the jury that the defense wanted. They even brought in Robert Hirschhorn (an expert in jury selection) to help with the process. The defense specifically blocked a move by the state to serially strike 6 women during voir dire when the state was unable to produce a gender neutral argument for striking these jurors. Had the defense allowed the state to proceed with the strikes, there almost certainly would have been a Y chromosome on the jury.

There were two males in the 4 member alternate jury pool, 1 of whom was dismissed part way through the proceedings for reasons unrelated to the proceedings.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Trayvon Martin:

The teen was suspended from school three times
He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue
Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry
Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness

None of that was admissible evidence. If the jurors didn't know those details before the trial, they wouldn't know them now, so what's your point?

I think there's a good chance at a mistrial if he does get manslaughter.. How is that a jury of his peers when there's not a single Y chromosome in the jury?

What's the defense going to say? "Uh, yeah, that jury we selected and signed off on, uh, wasn't a jury of our client's peers." It's not like the prosecution picked the jury in a vacuum.

 

[shibby1111]

The fact that the jury is still deliberating means there is at least one person who doesn't understand what self defense is.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Manslaughter conviction is the issue right now for GZ. The jury is hashing it out about whether he is not guilty on that manslaughter charge.

 

[deleted307836]

I feel bad for this jury. It's my understanding that the names of all jurors are released eventually as a matter of public record (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that).

With the tensions present with this case, they certainly have reason to fear for their personal safety, and will most likely be harassed through the mail, phone calls, or worse no matter what conclusion they reach. I'd be scared if I were one of them - it's an incredibly unfortunate situation to be involved with a trial as public as this one.

 

[loveoforganic2]

I feel bad for this jury. It's my understanding that the names of all jurors are released eventually as a matter of public record (someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that).

With the tensions present with this case, they certainly have reason to fear for their personal safety, and will most likely be harassed through the mail, phone calls, or worse no matter what conclusion they reach. I'd be scared if I were one of them - it's an incredibly unfortunate situation to be involved with a trial as public as this one.

I was under the impression the names aren't shared, but I'm not sure how that works with FOIA

 

[deleted307836]

I was under the impression the names aren't shared, but I'm not sure how that works with FOIA

They were released in the Casey Anthony trial which led me to believe the names are always released, though I don't know for sure. To me, the Anthony trial would be a prime example of a time NOT to release the names if such an opportunity exists.

 

[loveoforganic2]

They were released in the Casey Anthony trial which led me to believe the names are always released, though I don't know for sure. To me, the Anthony trial would be a prime example of a time NOT to release the names if such an opportunity exists.

I agree - I think it would be perfectly reasonable to keep identities of jurors anonymous in every trial. IANAL and haven't looked into it, I had just gathered that impression from another forum

 

[periopdoc]

The judge has yet to rule on if/when the names of the jurors will be released. The defense requested anonymity for the jurors for 6 months following the trial. Lawyers for The Orlando Sentinel have mailed the judge requesting that she hold a hearing on the issue before deciding. Media lawyers in general are claiming that a delay in identification subverts the open judicial process.

If I were a juror, I would not have returned a verdict yet, even though I am convinced that not guilty is the correct verdict. I would stall by requesting to look at the evidence and deliberate slowly. I believe a rapid verdict would make repercussions more likely.

Of note, there are only four possible outcomes of this trial at this point... Not guilty, guilty of murder two, guilty of manslaughter or mistrial/ hung jury. Some have been questioning whether he can be acquitted of murder 2 and have a hung jury on manslaughter. This is not a possible outcome. If the jury hangs on manslaughter then it is a mistrial and Zimmerman faces a retrial on all charges.

-pod

 

[loveoforganic2]

Some have been questioning whether he can be acquitted of murder 2 and have a hung jury on manslaughter. This is not a possible outcome. If the jury hangs on manslaughter then it is a mistrial and Zimmerman faces a retrial on all charges.

Laws are weird. Seems like double jeopardy

 

[periopdoc]

I agree - I think it would be perfectly reasonable to keep identities of jurors anonymous in every trial. IANAL and haven't looked into it, I had just gathered that impression from another forum

Federal and most* state courts disagree. Except in certain limited circumstances where there is a high likelihood of jury tampering or threat (think organized crime trial) jurors have no expectation of privacy once empaneled. The legal theory is that the small personal risk conferred upon the jurors is outweighed by the benefit of an open trial process to maintain public confidence in the process and the appearance of fairness.

* I say most because someone is going to challenge me and name a state where disclosure of juror names is not routine. I don't know of any states where that is the case, but perhaps there are one or two. Most do disclose juror info.

- pod

 

[loveoforganic2]

Thanks, didn't think of that rationale, but makes sense

 

[periopdoc]

Jurors have a question about manslaughter. My guess "is punching someone in the face or bashing their head into concrete a felony?" Or something along those lines.



-pod

 

[24858]

That's pretty clearly not correct, I think.

There is a huge prosecutorial bias against minorities, especially black people. Their high incarceration rate is not JUST that they tend to be poorer and unable to afford aggressive lawyers.

It's that the police tend to hang out in their neighborhoods more, arrest them more, they get charged with crimes more, and THEN their poor background comes into play in the form of ignorance of options, public defenders, bad plea bargains.

Whereas the non-minority in the quiet affluent suburb is a lot less likely to encounter cops in the first place. If he happens to get caught selling some weed to his friends the DA is far less likely to throw the book at him. If he gets in a fight after school it's more likely to be viewed as youthful shenanigans.


400 posts ago you were telling us this is no longer a racist nation because we elected a black guy, but I still disagree.

This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with crime rates. Where are most murders committed? White or black neighborhoods? The police go where the crimes are committed. If the police were continually in white neighborhoods while crime went rampant in the black neighborhoods people would be bitching and moaning that white America was letting crime be committed in poor neighborhoods. Seriously if you are white or a cop in this country you can't win you are always looked at as a racist or an *******.
I hate these types of arguments because the truth is never told and if it is you are automatically labeled as a racist. Sociological problems are never solved because analytics and reason are never used, the mob mentality of emotionality and frank blatant pity, excusism, and sycophantic double talk is the standard bearer. Good luck with this bull**** thread.

 

[TexasDoc2388]

Trayvon Martin:

The teen was suspended from school three times
He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue
Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry
Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness

Florida's criteria to be killed: must be black, must have had school problems, must have smoked marijuana. Wonderful policy.

 

[periopdoc]

So my lawyer buddies are having a Twitter bit¨ch slap fest on whether acquittal on murder 2 and hung on manslaughter can result in Zim being retried on both charges or whether it is double jeopardy and whether case law from a different circuit court of appeals is applicable to the courts in Florida. Kind of reminds me of some of the epic battles here, but without the pages of cut and paste (thank you 140 character limit.)


For now I guess I will have to retract my statement that the jury cannot acquit on M2 and hang on the lesser charge until the lawyers hash it out a bit better.

- pod

 

[periopdoc]

We have a verdict.

- pod

 

[BLADEMDA]

Florida's criteria to be killed: must be black, must have had school problems, must have smoked marijuana. Wonderful policy.

Please add pulverizing a person's head on the concrete. When you add it all up it becomes clear GZ was defending himself.

 

[periopdoc]

I thought he pulverized his head with Skittles... and Arizona um Tea, no Drink, no (can't say watermelon or I will be viewed as racist)

Isn't that what the prosecution claimed? His only weapons were Skittles and Arizona Tea.

- pod

 

[BLADEMDA]

Florida's criteria to be killed: must be black, must have had school problems, must have smoked marijuana. Wonderful policy.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[periopdoc]

Not guilty

-pod

 

[Medicinewoman85]

Trayvon Martin:

The teen was suspended from school three times
He was on suspension when he was shot in February, after officials caught him with a 'marijuana pipe' and a baggie with drug residue
Trayvon was kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry
Officials also suspended him once for skipping school and tardiness

This is irrelevant.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Brandon Zeth was White:


Brandon Zeth was 24 years old, a mechanic and outdoorsman in Altoona, Pennsylvania. In early 2012, he was inebriated and tried to return to his girlfriend's house late at night, but accidentally ended up on the back porch of the nearly identical house next door, pounding on the window of a stranger rather than his girlfriend, according to WTAJ News.

The homeowner Timothy Lepore, who is in his early sixties, reportedly shot him five times, twice in the arms and three times in the chest, with a 22 caliber gun. Police report there is no evidence that Zeth tried to break in to the house.

"We don't know if he is going to live or if he is going to die, just because this man shot him outside on his porch," Zeth's father Don told WTAJ News, who said he wanted everyone to see, "what he did to that boy for being at the wrong place at the wrong time." Zeth later died of complications from the gun shot wounds after spending a month at a Pittsburgh hospital, according to the Associated Press.

Lepore's attorney, Steve Passarello, told WTAJ News that "his client was legally in the right to shoot him to keep him out of his home according to the new Castle Doctrine." The Blair County District Attorney's office announced June 13 that it will not press charges against Lepore because "it is legally prohibited" from doing so by the "current State of Pennsylvania law," even though Lepore's actions were "regrettable."

 

[G0S2]

Its in:Not guilty