Statistically speaking

[crusintillaug]

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First please try not to flame. I don't know why you would...but I think you might. Anyways, after reading a lot of posts about how MD's statistically speaking have a higher chance of getting into more competitive residencies because there are simply more spots per number of applicants and even though DO's can do MD residencies, the numbers still say that MD's have a slight advantage. This I believe, is a general consensus with most and after thinking about this for a long time, I finally decided to post to hear what others thought.

Given that the average GPA and mcat score for matriculates into MD schools are roughly .1-.2 and 2-3 points higher respectively, has any tried to equate the difficulty of getting into a competitive residency as both a DO and MD when these initial stats are considered? Basically (and here are where the flames coming shooting out) because most DO students have lower grades/mcat scores in undergrad than MD students, someone who goes the DO route theoretically has, simply based on past experience, less competition academically speaking, if for no other reason than Do's may not be as good at taking standardized tests than MD's and thus making it easier to get a higher percentile on the step 1 and step 2 scores than if you were a MD?

Again, please try not to flame too hard, I am actually really curious about this but have never heard it mentioned really anywhere. My guess is that even though DO's have lower matriculation stats it doesn't matter in med school. On the other hand, what better way to gauge how academically competitive classmates will be by what their last few years of grades were in school? I would be very curious in seeing some type of study regarding these differences to see if they correlate with difficulty of getting into competitive residencies with DO's an MD's.

 

[aSagacious]

Assuming that DOs only applied to DO residencies, you proved the point already. There are simply more DO residency positions per applicant than MD (or so you claim, I was too lazy to verify/disprove this fact) and therefore they are less competitive.

If DOs applied to MD residencies (as many do), your theory can go out the window because after taking the USMLEs, everyone is compared by the same measuring stick.

As far as undergrad grades go, they count as much for residency as your high school grades counted for med school admissions.

 

[LesBois88]

Protip: you're overanalyzing.

With hard work you can enter the field of your choice either way.

 

[crusintillaug]

Protip: you're overanalyzing.

With hard work you can enter the field of your choice either way.

I definitely agree with you there. But I am currently just working a 7-5 mindless job while waiting for school to start, so I have to entertain myself somehow...And I thought it was just an interesting matter since I have seen a lot of threads regarding difficulty of getting into specialties with DO vs MD.

 

[driftking]

There may very well be a lot of truth in what you are saying. The only reasonable comparison between MD vs DO can come from an analysis of match rates into ACGME residencies. The Osteopathic USMLE average is slightly lower than the Allopathic USMLE average. As a result, it is unknown if it is truly any lingering "DO Bias" that is causing a lower specialization rate for DOs or simply lower board scores. More than likely, it is a mix of the two.

As stated above, if you get the scores, you get the spot, whether DO or MD.

 

[LesBois88]

As stated above, if you get the scores, you get the spot, whether DO or MD.

Not really- the process of getting your desired residency is a cumulative effort on your part, and USMLE and/or COMLEX performance is just one part. Countless others influence your success, some of them with equal or more weight.

 

[driftking]

Not really- the process of getting your desired residency is a cumulative effort on your part, and USMLE and/or COMLEX performance is just one part. Countless others influence your success, some of them with equal or more weight.

Look at the extreme - FMGs matching surg/anesth/neurosurg who have everything working against them - not US citizens, no US clinicals, no US connections. Some score 99/245+ on step1, and still only land prelim spots, yet they might do research/demonstrate proficiency, and find a way to get into their desired categorical spots.

The majority of DO students these days don't feel this 'underdog' mentality, and lack that tenacity to chase after competitive ACGME spots. Many don't take the USMLE. It truly takes guts to skip over the AOA match, and risk scrambling for an ACGME residency.

The DO Bias is largely gone. If a DO student takes the risk, and has the board scores, he/she can realistically achieve anything they want.

What is giving this perception of a lingering DO-bias is the fact that many DO students are perfectly content with AOA programs, as opposed to doing the prelim route for ACGME (which is what many FMGs do - and gives the perception that they have access to programs that DOs don't). I don't fault DO students one bit for this approach either.

AOA neurosurg = ACGME neurosurg for all intents and purposes.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Altogether .... things like MCAT, ugrad GPA, raking yourself based upon how well you did in o-chem, etc, just fly out the window once you enter medical school.

It's just a different game, and you may find that the 4.0/35 gunner is dead average, and the #1 person in your class may not have been such an undergraduate superstar. Granted, I'm sure there are some primal correlations here - people who work hard and put a big emphasis on doing well will continue to do so, but altogether ... just a different game.

The fact of the matter is that these competitive spots are absurdly competitive from either side of the coin. 1 out of ever 4 US MD students who apply to ACGME Ortho residencies (keep in mind too that these are the people who have already self-selected themselves into the ranks of Ortho gunner) don't get a spot. That sucks.

Because of this, you shouldn't spend your time worrying about correlations, how you could manipulate the system (which I don't think pans out logically regardless), etc, and focus on getting into the best school possible (pay attention to factors that will help you succeed - location, proximity to loved ones, "fit," etc) and doing well. After you've done that, worry about residency; WAY down the road, worry about these correlations and share your knowledge with the next generation.

 

[munchymanRX]

First please try not to flame. I don't know why you would...but I think you might. Anyways, after reading a lot of posts about how MD's statistically speaking have a higher chance of getting into more competitive residencies because there are simply more spots per number of applicants and even though DO's can do MD residencies, the numbers still say that MD's have a slight advantage. This I believe, is a general consensus with most and after thinking about this for a long time, I finally decided to post to hear what others thought.

Given that the average GPA and mcat score for matriculates into MD schools are roughly .1-.2 and 2-3 points higher respectively, has any tried to equate the difficulty of getting into a competitive residency as both a DO and MD when these initial stats are considered? Basically (and here are where the flames coming shooting out) because most DO students have lower grades/mcat scores in undergrad than MD students, someone who goes the DO route theoretically has, simply based on past experience, less competition academically speaking, if for no other reason than Do's may not be as good at taking standardized tests than MD's and thus making it easier to get a higher percentile on the step 1 and step 2 scores than if you were a MD?

Again, please try not to flame too hard, I am actually really curious about this but have never heard it mentioned really anywhere. My guess is that even though DO's have lower matriculation stats it doesn't matter in med school. On the other hand, what better way to gauge how academically competitive classmates will be by what their last few years of grades were in school? I would be very curious in seeing some type of study regarding these differences to see if they correlate with difficulty of getting into competitive residencies with DO's an MD's.

I wouldn't worry about it. You'll rise (or fall) to the level of competition in medical school, wherever you end up.
Also, such studies have been done: http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/104/8/332

There's some fuzzy math in there, but it's something to look over. Worry about being the best physician you can be right now and remember that the specialty you're gunning for is almost certainly going to change. You may fall in love with family practice-who knows?

 

[Brachyury]

Look at the extreme - FMGs matching surg/anesth/neurosurg who have everything working against them - not US citizens, no US clinicals, no US connections. Some score 99/245+ on step1, and still only land prelim spots, yet they might do research/demonstrate proficiency, and find a way to get into their desired categorical spots.

The majority of DO students these days don't feel this 'underdog' mentality, and lack that tenacity to chase after competitive ACGME spots. Many don't take the USMLE. It truly takes guts to skip over the AOA match, and risk scrambling for an ACGME residency.

The DO Bias is largely gone. If a DO student takes the risk, and has the board scores, he/she can realistically achieve anything they want.

What is giving this perception of a lingering DO-bias is the fact that many DO students are perfectly content with AOA programs, as opposed to doing the prelim route for ACGME (which is what many FMGs do - and gives the perception that they have access to programs that DOs don't). I don't fault DO students one bit for this approach either.

AOA neurosurg = ACGME neurosurg for all intents and purposes.

I hope you're joking; if not, I might need a drink

 

[munchymanRX]

Look at the extreme - FMGs matching surg/anesth/neurosurg who have everything working against them - not US citizens, no US clinicals, no US connections. Some score 99/245+ on step1, and still only land prelim spots, yet they might do research/demonstrate proficiency, and find a way to get into their desired categorical spots.

The majority of DO students these days don't feel this 'underdog' mentality, and lack that tenacity to chase after competitive ACGME spots. Many don't take the USMLE. It truly takes guts to skip over the AOA match, and risk scrambling for an ACGME residency.

The DO Bias is largely gone. If a DO student takes the risk, and has the board scores, he/she can realistically achieve anything they want.

What is giving this perception of a lingering DO-bias is the fact that many DO students are perfectly content with AOA programs, as opposed to doing the prelim route for ACGME (which is what many FMGs do - and gives the perception that they have access to programs that DOs don't). I don't fault DO students one bit for this approach either.

AOA neurosurg = ACGME neurosurg for all intents and purposes.

Lol wut? This just patently isn't true. Try matching derm or being an interventional radiologist with a DO. Won't matter if you have better USMLE scores than your MD counterparts.

 

[NYEMMED]

Lol wut? This just patently isn't true. Try matching derm or being an interventional radiologist with a DO. Won't matter if you have better USMLE scores than your MD counterparts.

LOL like them?

Dr. Robert M. Morley practices interventional radiology & vascular radiology and diagnostic radiology in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Dr. Morley graduated with a DO 15 years ago.
Specialties:
Interventional Radiology & Vascular Radiology - Board Certified
Diagnostic Radiology - Board Certified
State License:
Michigan
Years Since Graduation: 15

Robert J. Signore, D.O., P.C
Dermatology
17730 S. Oak Park Avenue, Suite C
Tinley Park, Illinois 60477
(708) 429-2992

(I only posted the first 1 of each specialty from google, as I really dont care to copy and paste thousands of names....)

 

[jinobi]

LOL like them?

(I only posted the first 1 of each specialty from google, as I really dont care to copy and paste thousands of names....)

To go off your neurosurgery example: again, you can find DO neurosurgeons anywhere. But it's a fact that matching to a given ACGME neurosurgery program as a DO will be harder than as a MD.

• There are simply more qualified MD applicants than DO applicants. This will be exacerbated by the increasing class sizes and new medical schools in the future, while Medicare-funded residency programs are not likely to expand.
• There are more ACGME neurosurgery residency positions than AOA neurosurgery positions.
• DO students often don't have abundant research opportunities at their home campuses. They have to work harder to gain research projects at other established campuses, especially if they are aiming for competitive residencies.

The best resource to look at is Charting the Outcomes from the AAMC. (https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62400/data/chartingoutcomes.pdf). Independent applicants (IMGs and DOs) are far less likely to successfully match into neurosurgery even if they have equivalent or higher USMLE scores to their MD counterparts. You might as well check out the different fields as well.

Can you match into neurosurgery as a DO? Yes.
Will it be more of an uphill battle to match into neurosurgery as a DO rather than as a MD? Yes.

 

[LesBois88]

To go off your neurosurgery example: again, you can find DO neurosurgeons anywhere. But it's a fact that matching to a given ACGME neurosurgery program as a DO will be harder than as a MD.

• There are simply more qualified MD applicants than DO applicants. This will be exacerbated by the increasing class sizes and new medical schools in the future, while Medicare-funded residency programs are not likely to expand.
• There are more ACGME neurosurgery residency positions than AOA neurosurgery positions.
• DO students often don't have abundant research opportunities at their home campuses. They have to work harder to gain research projects at other established campuses, especially if they are aiming for competitive residencies.

The best resource to look at is Charting the Outcomes from the AAMC. (https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62400/data/chartingoutcomes.pdf). Independent applicants (IMGs and DOs) are far less likely to successfully match into neurosurgery even if they have equivalent or higher USMLE scores to their MD counterparts. You might as well check out the different fields as well.

Can you match into neurosurgery as a DO? Yes.
Will it be more of an uphill battle to match into neurosurgery as a DO rather than as a MD? Yes.

Possibly the least informed post in this thread (which is really saying something).

You're missing the big point- the OP isn't trying to gauge his options as an ACGME trained physician, but as a physician. Of course it is absurdly difficult for an osteopathic student to match into an allopathic neurosurgery spot. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that. But we don't have to- we have our own neurosurgery spots.
In most fields, if you examine the options available to osteopathic students your chances are roughly equivalent.

 

[scpod]

....Try matching derm or being an interventional radiologist with a DO. Won't matter if you have better USMLE scores than your MD counterparts.

The thing so many people fail to realize is that most people DON'T want to do derm or interventional radiology. I can't think of anything worse than dealing with derm patients all day. I hate rashes and practically anything that involves the disrupted anatomy or physiology of the skin.

Most people also DON'T want to do Ortho, or Optho or any other of those "competitve" specialties out there. Lot's of people, however, do want to do IM, and Peds, and FM... but everyone seems to conveniently forget that fact.

Nor do MOST people give a rat's ass how competitive their residency is. They want to go somewhere where they have a somewhat peaceful existence and find a little happiness in the hectic, fast-paced, sleep-deprived environment that residency typically has.

You can argue about statistics until you are blue in the face, but it the end it means nothing.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Lol wut? This just patently isn't true. Try matching derm or being an interventional radiologist with a DO. Won't matter if you have better USMLE scores than your MD counterparts.

I'm not going to sit here and argue that it's equal footing for US MDs and DOs in ACGME programs (it's not, and frankly, because DOs have exclusive AOA residencies ... I don't lose any sleep over it). However, to say that you can't be an interventional radiologist or derm as a DO is a silly, SDN pre-med myth. Like someone else said, do a 2.2 second google search and see that despite the fact that it's an uphill battle ... people do it every year. Hell, last year AZCOM had ACGME rad-onc and ACGME derm (at Mayo clinic) in the same class.

Furthermore, are you aware that, statistically speaking, you will probably fail to rise to the ranks of IR and derm as well??? Even with the MD behind your name? People sometimes make the mistake of assuming that the US MD is a free ticket into ACGME ROAD specialties ... it's not. It may be a 'leg up,' but it's far, far from a free ride. Ask all of the ACGME superstar ortho, derm, integrated PRS, etc, applicants who don't match each year.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I <3 pre-medical students ... how would any of us know how the world of medical school, residency, and practice works without them???

 

[aSagacious]

I <3 pre-medical students ... how would any of us know how the world of medical school, residency, and practice works without them???

It kind of reminds me of congressmen passing multi-billion dollar legislation on issues like:
- Global climate change
- Mid-term abortions
- Alternative energy

... since they objectively understand the obviously simple truths that seems to elude the rest of us.

 

[marke]

rock your USMLE and you'll be able to get into any specialty you want! (it might not be the program you want, but that's just life)

i know an ACGME program that traditionally are not DO friendly but there's a DO resident there... that program don't usually interview DOs... but she scored like 98 percentile or something like that on her USMLE.. she had no trouble getting a residency spot there...

there are also a DO resident in a nearby ACGME neurosurgery program..

work your butt off and you'll be where you want to be!

just my 2 cents

 

[LesBois88]

rock your USMLE and you'll be able to get into any specialty you want! (it might not be the program you want, but that's just life)

Again, because this is SDN I feel the need to say that this isn't necessarily true.

Clerkship grades and your ability to not be a douchebag play a huge role.