STATS ARE NOT EVERYTHING | GET MY APPLICATION!

[jbarnett2020]

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SDN Community,

My name is Jordan Barnett and I am currently a D1 at the University of the Pacific, Arthur A. Dugoni School of Dentistry in San Francisco, CA. I haven't been on here in a while and to no surprise, I was quickly overwhelmed with all of the bad advice and information that is littered on this platform.

I know that a new cycle is upon us and that a lot of you may be like I was way back when are nervous about your chances getting into dental school - believe me when I say that you are not alone. What I am hoping that you can get out of this post is a breath of fresh air and a look at my application that was by all intensive purposes "mediocre at best" when talking purely statistics (GPA+DAT):

3.38 cumulative GPA VS. my class average (3.6)
3.31 science GPA VS. my class average (3.59)
20 AA (18bio, 21genchem, 22ochem, 19TS, 20rc, 21qr, 16 PAT) VS. my class averages 22.1 AA (21bio, 23genchem, 23ochem, 22TS, 22rc, 21qr, 23 PAT)

I applied to 15 schools very late (October 14) and received 4 interviews: UOP, UPENN, NYU, Boston University (BU).

So why does this matter? It matters because wasting your time making "Chance Me" threads and taking advice from students that have not successfully gained acceptance to a DDS/DMD program is not worth your time. Moreover, seeing school averages is NOT the answer to "Will I get an in?!?!" because numbers are numbers. A score or a grade does not define the person that is applying - YOU DO. Whether you think so or not, each school wants the best and the brightest, but they also want to genuinely like the people that will be at their school 3-4 years, so show them exactly what they will get - YOU. Only you can do that.

I have had the amazing opportunity to learn both with and from some incredible classmates and I do not want applicants, like yourself, feeling discouraged or that they will never get that opportunity because they think that they are not good enough. YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH.

Attached below is my actual application with personal information blocked out. Use it, critique it, laugh at it, feel better about yourself, learn from it, do whatever you would like with it. Whatever you chose to do with it, just know that this was GOOD ENOUGH. Which in the end of the day, isn't that what we all want?

You can do it and I cannot wait to read about all of your interviews and acceptances. Be patient and good luck, Doctors.

 

[SmileGoals]

Love this! Thank you!! I heard UoP loves Davis grads😉, maybe see y’all next year!

 

[Stanelz]

Stats are not everything if you want to play russian roulette with your application and have an extremely decreased chance at going to a school that doesnt have a double mortgage tuition.

Lets go ahead and hand out participation medals while we're at it.

SDN is a place for realistic advice and expectation, if you have a decreased chance I am going to tell you because I care about you and want to increase your chances at a good school that is advantageous to your current and future lifestyle.

 

[jbarnett2020]

Love this! Thank you!! I heard UoP loves Davis grads😉, maybe see y’all next year!

They do! I believe we have 6 or 7 in my class. The guy that sits right next to me is a Davis alum! Best of luck! I hope to be able to meet you.

 

[jbarnett2020]

Stats are not everything if you want to play russian roulette with your application and have an extremely decreased chance at going to a school that doesnt have a double mortgage tuition.

Lets go ahead and hand out participation medals while we're at it.

SDN is a place for realistic advice and expectation, if you have a decreased chance I am going to tell you because I care about you and want to increase your chances at a good school that is advantageous to your current and future lifestyle.

Hey Stanelz,
By "decreased chance at going to a school that doesn't have a double mortgage tuition" is the implication that cheaper schools are easier to get into stats wise than expensive schools?

I appreciate the fact that you care about people and their success in applying to dental school - me too! Yet, I challenge the idea that only looking at stats gives you, me, or even an admissions staff member the ability to say if someone will make it or not because by SDN and class statistics standards had no chance. What I hope people can understand is that other parts of the application, ec's, volunteering, work experience, personal statement, etc. can be equally as important and I am willing to share my personal application to show that.

I believe your signature to be 100% true, "With God all things are possible" Mathew 19:26. Applying to dental school is no different.

 

[Stanelz]

Hey Stanelz,
By "decreased chance at going to a school that doesn't have a double mortgage tuition" is the implication that cheaper schools are easier to get into stats wise than expensive schools?

I appreciate the fact that you care about people and their success in applying to dental school - me too! Yet, I challenge the idea that only looking at stats gives you, me, or even an admissions staff member the ability to say if someone will make it or not because by SDN and class statistics standards had no chance. What I hope people can understand is that other parts of the application, ec's, volunteering, work experience, personal statement, etc. can be equally as important and I am willing to share my personal application to show that.

I believe your signature to be 100% true, "With God all things are possible" Mathew 19:26. Applying to dental school is no different.

Well In regards to cost it is not uncommon for schools with higher than average tuition to seemingly autoreject individuals with higher stats as we have seen that trend over and over. Even within the schools that you interviewed at, apart from BU, the other schools are well over 450k COA.

All im saying is that with posts like these you should really give a disclaimer to be reasonable. EC's are no where close to being near equal to GPA and DAT I dont know if I could agree with that. They are important once you get your foot in the door i.e GPA and DAT. An 18AA is borderline, I think we could both agree that if it was one point lower the chances would drop significantly right? No matter what the EC's are. Looking at your stats I would have said that you have a chance but not a super likely one and I would have advised you retake your DAT. Is that bad advice? No I believe it is logical advice given the nature of this website and the statistics of acceptance. You got in and I am happy for you but if you hadn't what would you have to show for it if you werent working to improve your application? Nothing is guaranteed

If someone tells me that they have an 18AA and a 3.3GPA a logical response would NOT be to say that they have a good chance because they have tons of EC's. The logical response would be to prepare to retake your DAT because when the cycle ends and you have done nothing but hope for an interview, you have significantly decreased your chances as a re-app but if you have been preparing to retake your DAT or have been taking courses, you have something to show for your year off.

Lastly, in regard to my sig. Yes all things are possible with God but that is not an excuse to stay stagnant. God will bless your efforts but not if you wait around for him to do something.

Bottom line, everyone has a chance. The guy with a 25AA has a chance and the guy with a 17AA technically also has a chance because I am sure there are a few people in the country that have gotten in with a 17AA. But if you come to me and tell me you have a 17AA I am not going to tell you to just pray and have faith. I am going to give you concrete advice in case it is not God's plan for you to get in this cycle.

I love your attitude man you remind me of myself and I think there is definitely a need for it on SDN and once again I am happy for your success and I wish I could tell everyone with those stats that they will get in with good EC's because I love to encourage people but if people are looking for practical advice on how to improve their application this is a great place and sometimes we have to be a little harsh to make sure people are not getting too comfortable. If you want a self-esteem boost this might not be the best website

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

By "decreased chance at going to a school that doesn't have a double mortgage tuition" is the implication that cheaper schools are easier to get into stats wise than expensive schools?

Cheaper schools are harder to get into. Harvard, Columbia, and UPenn are where gunners rationalize paying the increased tuition.

Big Hoss

 

[Life of Pablo]

Cheaper schools are harder to get into. Harvard, Columbia, and UPenn are where gunners rationalize paying the increased tuition.

Big Hoss

Can't speak about Columbia and Harvard, but Penn is very generous with scholarships they give out. You'd be surprised how many students are paying tuition similar to (or even less than) what they'd pay at their state school.

 

[DMikes]

Love this! Thank you!! I heard UoP loves Davis grads😉, maybe see y’all next year!

Actually, I think they love UW-Madison grads the best. In fact, it's probably a 100% acceptance rate. 1/1 baaabbbyyyyy.
*Disclaimer: I have no idea how many of my fellow Badgers may have applied to UoP and been accepted/rejected*

Well In regards to cost it is not uncommon for schools with higher than average tuition to seemingly autoreject individuals with higher stats as we have seen that trend over and over.

Not so sure about this. Frankly, this is the second time I've ever even heard this theory mentioned.



The impression that SDN tends to give off to most prospective applicants is:

"In order to get into dental school you must cure all forms of cancer, dunk on Dikembe Mutombo, be canonized (and somehow be alive), run a sub four minute mile, and be a straight A student with a 25+ DAT"

Sadly, often times it's the accepted students creating such impressions as an inconspicuous ego-boost or pat on the back: "Yeah, dental school's almost impossible to get into--I would know, I got in" (Not pointing any fingers; speaking broadly)


At the end of the day nearly everybody has a chance. Do some have a better chance than others? Obviously! But to effectively write somebody off just for having a slightly below average DAT or GPA is shortsighted and not how admissions works. Unless you've read their application you have no idea what they've accomplished or what might make them stand out to an admissions committee.

It's not often we see a genuine evaluation of things that extend beyond objective test scores as factors of admission and certainly this is because they're unquantifiable, subjective and subsequently almost impossible to evaluate. But is it something we should just ignore and not even consider when giving advice? Again, I certainly don't think so.

A good conversation; and an important one.

 

[applegrape1]

Well In regards to cost it is not uncommon for schools with higher than average tuition to seemingly autoreject individuals with higher stats as we have seen that trend over and over. Even within the schools that you interviewed at, apart from BU, the other schools are well over 450k COA.

All im saying is that with posts like these you should really give a disclaimer to be reasonable. EC's are no where close to being near equal to GPA and DAT I dont know if I could agree with that. They are important once you get your foot in the door i.e GPA and DAT. An 18AA is borderline, I think we could both agree that if it was one point lower the chances would drop significantly right? No matter what the EC's are. Looking at your stats I would have said that you have a chance but not a super likely one and I would have advised you retake your DAT. Is that bad advice? No I believe it is logical advice given the nature of this website and the statistics of acceptance. You got in and I am happy for you but if you hadn't what would you have to show for it if you werent working to improve your application? Nothing is guaranteed

If someone tells me that they have an 18AA and a 3.3GPA a logical response would NOT be to say that they have a good chance because they have tons of EC's. The logical response would be to prepare to retake your DAT because when the cycle ends and you have done nothing but hope for an interview, you have significantly decreased your chances as a re-app but if you have been preparing to retake your DAT or have been taking courses, you have something to show for your year off.

Lastly, in regard to my sig. Yes all things are possible with God but that is not an excuse to stay stagnant. God will bless your efforts but not if you wait around for him to do something.

Bottom line, everyone has a chance. The guy with a 25AA has a chance and the guy with a 17AA technically also has a chance because I am sure there are a few people in the country that have gotten in with a 17AA. But if you come to me and tell me you have a 17AA I am not going to tell you to just pray and have faith. I am going to give you concrete advice in case it is not God's plan for you to get in this cycle.

I love your attitude man you remind me of myself and I think there is definitely a need for it on SDN and once again I am happy for your success and I wish I could tell everyone with those stats that they will get in with good EC's because I love to encourage people but if people are looking for practical advice on how to improve their application this is a great place and sometimes we have to be a little harsh to make sure people are not getting too comfortable. If you want a self-esteem boost this might not be the best website

Everyone, please listen to this. Everything this person said is solid.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Can't speak about Columbia and Harvard, but Penn is very generous with scholarships they give out. You'd be surprised how many students are paying tuition similar to (or even less than) what they'd pay at their state school.

I know a graduate from Ohio State who got a full tuition scholarship. Apparently, they give one out to every class. That person is the real winner.

Big Hoss

 

[SnozzBerry]

Step 1: Be a poor applicant
Step 2: Go to dental school for $500k+
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Depression

 

[helloboys]

Yeah, I agree with most people on here. Don't take this person with any sort of authority. He just got lucky getting accepted to 1 out of 15 schools. Plus the school he got accepted to is 100k a year. There are schools out there 25k a year.

 

[DMikes]

Yeah, I agree with most people on here. Don't take this person with any sort of authority. He just got lucky getting accepted to 1 out of 15 schools. Plus the school he got accepted to is 100k a year. There are schools out there 25k a year.

Could you elaborate some more? Exactly by what "authority" did you determine that his acceptance was strictly "luck?"

I don't think Jordan ever claimed any authority. He's simply showing that what he did was good enough. And that's indisputable and unequivocal.

You should finish your application and get accepted to a dental school before claiming to know any more than Jordan does.


Also, please point me in the direction of the multitude of dental schools that are 25K a year for OOS students

I believe there's a quote that goes something like... "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." If that's your definition of "luck" then sure, I agree, Jordan got lucky.

 

[helloboys]

Could you elaborate some more? Exactly by what "authority" did you determine that his acceptance was strictly "luck?"

I don't think Jordan ever claimed any authority. He's simply showing that what he did was good enough. And that's indisputable and unequivocal.

You should finish your application and get accepted to a dental school before claiming to know any more than Jordan does.


Also, please point me in the direction of the multitude of dental schools that are 25K a year for OOS students

I believe there's a quote that goes something like... "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." If that's your definition of "luck" then sure, I agree, Jordan got lucky.

I meant as in authority figure. Like you shouldn't hold what he said any more than what another person on here says.

I never said there are 25k schools for oos. I said if you work hard, you could have gotten into ucla instead of another cali school that is 4x expensive. Or if your state doesn't a dental school, you could apply to a school that offers instate tution after your 1st year.

 

[DMikes]

I meant as in authority figure. Like you shouldn't hold what he said any more than what another person on here says.

I never said there are 25k schools for oos. I said if you work hard, you could have gotten into ucla instead of another cali school that is 4x expensive. Or if your state doesn't a dental school, you could apply to a school that offers instate tution after your 1st year.

You're overestimating the number of schools that cost 25k a year especially considering the "cheaper" options are typically reserved for in-state residents. You can't be in-state everywhere!

"I said if you work hard, you could have gotten into ucla instead of another cali school that is 4x expensive."

You said nothing about working hard in your post and that's a massive assumption... and an implication that people who don't get in to UCLA don't work hard?

I'm not sure UoP is 4x more expensive than UCLA. Have you seen those fees . In fact I'm pretty sure it works out to UCLA being about ~$139,000 cheaper. (The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread)

Sure, UCLA is objectively cheaper. Now go ahead and weigh infinitely more factors, the most obvious ones being UoP's 3 year curriculum and excellent clinical reputation, and decide where you'd like to go!

 

[Blueshirts]

You're overestimating the number of schools that cost 25k a year especially considering the "cheaper" options are typically reserved for in-state residents. You can't be in-state everywhere!

"I said if you work hard, you could have gotten into ucla instead of another cali school that is 4x expensive."

You said nothing about working hard in your post and that's a massive assumption... and an implication that people who don't get in to UCLA don't work hard?

I'm not sure UoP is 4x more expensive than UCLA. Have you seen those fees . In fact I'm pretty sure it works out to UCLA being about ~$139,000 cheaper. (The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread)

Sure, UCLA is objectively cheaper. Now go ahead and weigh infinitely more factors, the most obvious ones being UoP's 3 year curriculum and excellent clinical reputation, and decide where you'd like to go!

Difference in price should be less once you also factor in that UCLA has loan accrual over a 4 year period, while UoP for only 3, plus another major factor that people should consider is that 3 years means working during what would be UCLA's 4th year, I'm not going to do the numbers for this, but realistically the cost of attendance is about equal when opportunity cost is also accounted for. That just makes your point even juicer once all things are considered. 🙂

 

[Dr.BiriyaniBaddie]

Congrats on getting into dental school! I was wondering how you managed to get an A in orgo from C in chem? I just finished chem and struggled with it a great deal so I'm really worried about orgo. Do you have any tips on how to study for the class?

 

[Blueshirts]

Congrats on getting into dental school! I was wondering how you managed to get an A in orgo from C in chem? I just finished chem and struggled with it a great deal so I'm really worried about orgo. Do you have any tips on how to study for the class?

Treat orgo like a math class and repeat problems over and over, it isn't enough to just know things conceptually

 

[TherealnorthOMFS]

Sure, UCLA is objectively cheaper. Now go ahead and weigh infinitely more factors, the most obvious ones being UoP's 3 year curriculum and excellent clinical reputation, and decide where you'd like to go!

Time is money. Adding that extra year to your prime time salary 10 years down the road probably makes UoP a better gig price wise imo. @helloboys needs to focus on applying and getting into school before pointing fingers at others.

 

[Stanelz]

The impression that SDN tends to give off to most prospective applicants is:

"In order to get into dental school you must cure all forms of cancer, dunk on Dikembe Mutombo, be canonized (and somehow be alive), run a sub four minute mile, and be a straight A student with a 25+ DAT"

This is not true, it is a fallacy that people generalize from hearsay so they can justify posts like this. Most people with any sort of credibility here will give statistically accurate advice. I am not telling you to listen to the guy who opened his account yesterday with 4 total posts, listen to the one with hundreds of posts and has an acceptance. Show me the guy who told you ridiculous statements like that. Most of what I see are people stating to have a good chance you need a 20-21AA and a 3.4-3.7 GPA which is not unreasonable.

Would you rather I take a look at an 18AA and 3.3 GPA and tell you to do nothing because you have an excellent chance due to your 10,000 hours of shadowing?

This will be my last post, I do not wish to make anyone feel some type of way. Just trying to give back to the website that helped me get into dental school after I personally got rejected year 1.

 

[DreamChaser01]

Cheaper schools are harder to get into. Harvard, Columbia, and UPenn are where gunners rationalize paying the increased tuition.

Big Hoss

Cheaper schools are the one that everybody want to get into, which are more competitive than the overpriced OOS and private schools.