Navy Stay in or get out - looking for advice

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flightdoc09

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5+ Year Member
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Looking for some advice/experiences from those that have made similar decisions in the past.

My time commitment with the Navy is up in 1 year. I'll be at 10 years of active service as a former flight surgeon, FMF, now emergency medicine attending, enrolled in BRS for 9.5 years -maxing it out. I'm a bit (or more than a bit) frustrated with the bureaucracy and time wastage I have to go through as an adult (leave paperwork, back in the saddle training, 101 days of summer don't be stupid training, random urinalysis, etc). But I do enjoy doing the cool stuff. And 10 years is halfway to retirement. But I also feel like it has taken away from my ability to focus on family.

I'm thinking about going off active duty and joining the Navy reserves, Air National Guard, or Army National Guard/reserves. Has anyone gone from active duty to one of these as either EM, or flight surgeon? What's it like? I know it'll be a lot of PHAs and other admin stuff much of the time, but on occasion will get to do cool stuff, CCATT, etc.

I believe you can still get HPSP credit in the Navy for completing 20 years, and I have heard the other services will give you a half year of credit for HPSP time in the reserves.

Also want to add that I'm hoping to have a kid in the next 18 months, and I think in order to give them my GI bill, I'll need to commit to 4 years - which I believe can be in the reserves.

But yeah, 1 year, so trying to figure out my options before it sneaks up on me.
 
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Don't forget the VA! You can stay on track for retirement. The bureaucracy will be different in type, but similar in amount. Also very friendly to reserves.
 
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What does the civilian job market look like for EM these days?

If (10 years civilian EM) > (10 more years military EM) + (cash value of all-or-nothing retirement benefit at 20 yrs) + (cash value of Tricare benefit) then don't stay on active duty unless you genuinely don't mind literally paying for the privilege of service and the occasional fun field trip.


The reserves + VA retirement buy-in / double dipping can be an excellent deal and a way to not just walk away from all the years of service credit you have. Depends on how you feel about possibly getting called up and deployed for 7 or 12 or 18 months. That kind of absence can be the death of some specialties' practices, but shift work fields like EM, anesthesia, radiology, etc are in good shape there.


If you're feeling burned out with the bureaucracy and other BS now all I can say is you aren't going to feel better about that side of military medicine 5 or 9 years from now.
 
The VA can accommodate military leave with minimal disruption to patient flow, be it deployment or training. It is built into the whole system's redundancy (down to the timecards) and expected. Hiring managers must generally hire qualified veterans over non-veterans for a given position and a heck of a lot of veterans are in the reserves.
 
Looking for some advice/experiences from those that have made similar decisions in the past.

Been in now for 25 years: 8 non-medical + 17 medical (MS/PGYX/GMO/Staff, etc). I'm actually thinking about gunning for 30, maybe even beyond. It actually gets a little easier as you get older, kids get out of the house, etc.

But here's (I think) how you do this, and maintain your sanity:
  1. Do your job well, concentrate on your local space, control what you can reasonably control. Don't fret so much about DHA/MHS, the Pentagon, etc.
  2. Do the military stuff correctly (mostly to stay out of trouble). Wear the uniform correctly, be respectful, pass the UDS, pass the fitness requirements, mind your genitals.
  3. Moonlight. Your earning potential is too high, and your best years are being waste away, you're probably not practicing great medicine. You're definitely not practicing at the civilian equivalency. The only way to rectify this is to moonlight . . . not a 'civilian partnership' half-baked by the MTF, not a volunteer arrangement . . . just moonlight. You're enjoy the extra $$$ too.
  4. Ignore everything else. Turn your blinders on, ignore the bureaucracy, ignore the politics. Do the BS things (CBT, mano training) etc you have to do (see rule #2), but just ignore all of the chatter.
  5. Have a significant civilian life. Spend time with family, significant others, take leave, travel, engage in hobbies (golf, guitar, skiing, occasional whiskey).
If you can follow these 5 rules, you can stay active duty as long as you'd like. If you can't (especially #4 and #5, then it's time to GTFO.
 
I'll make a note of one more thing that helped preserve my sanity as I crept toward the 20 year finish line -

I decided I would leave an O5, and make zero effort to pin on O6. Being a terminal O5 opens a huge world of nah-I'm-not-doing-that possibilities. Get nudged by someone to take over as a director or department chair? Nah, I don't want that headache. Just give me a P on my fitrep, give the EP to someone else. Hey don't you want to take on a significant collateral duty? Nah, I'll just do clinical work and go home.

The best rank in the Navy is Termander.
 
Looking for some advice/experiences from those that have made similar decisions in the past.
Reasons why I left after 15 years toward retirement in 2005...in retrospect.

This year marks 21 years since I decided to leave the USAF after 15 years toward retirement (as y'all know, the 4 years I spent in uniform on active duty under the UCMJ at USU did not count thanks to DOPMA, which was designed to coerce military physicians to stay in an extra four years to catch the brass ring of retirement at 20 years total AD, not including USU).

Looking back, here are the main reasons that stick out for why I decided to resign my regular commission as a LtCol and walk away without any retirement benefits at all.

1) It was not about the money for me.
--I had a very nice house, three vehicles, and all the amenities of modern living I needed on my military salary. Financial issues did not enter into my decision to walk away.

2) I could not stand being commanded by idiots who thought they could tell me how to do my job.
--As I have said, having an RN commander order me to assume the front leaning rest position at 0300 in front of her office as punishment would not have bothered me. Endangering the lives of patients for political reasons did bother me.

3) I could not stand being commanded by non-physicians who merely had date of rank on me.
--I offered to stay in if the USAF would PCA me to USU from Andrews in a teaching position (which I already had as a voluntary extra duty for years by that time), which would have cost the government zero dollars. In response, they said: "No, we are PCSing you to [the worst possible Air Force medical center] to be commanded by a LtCol CRNA with date of rank on you." The lack of actual choice you have in assignments, given that the "needs of the service" always outweigh your and your family's needs, can be devastating to your quality of life.

4) I had a very bad feeling about the place they were planning to send me.
--I had taken leave months in advance before every single hurricane and major tropical storm that hit Maryland during my time on active duty (and for years thereafter). Something about being at that place in the summer of 2005 gave me very bad vibes that I couldn't rationally explain. In retrospect, I would have lost all of my earthly belongings, and possibly the lives of my family and myself, if I had ignored my nightmarish misgivings. See: Katrina.

5) I refused to lose my marriage (at the time) by being transferred to the most racist state in the USA (still true in 2026), because my (then) wife would be forced to close her solo medical practice we had spent years investing in if she packed up the kids and followed me to that hellhole.
--I knew my (then) wife would initiate divorce and keep her practice, the house, and our Chinese-Welsh-German-Italian kids in our far-more-integrated U.S. state the moment I got orders to go there. The only way you can have a hope of a chance at stability in where you live is to leave the military.

6) I objected on moral grounds to the war of choice in Iraq that was based on false claims of non-existent WMDs that my flight commander's famous husband spent years not finding despite thorough attempts, and that was in fact used to enrich private companies connected to the administration at the expense of American and Iraqi lives, the health of our soon-to-be vets, and trillions of taxpayer dollars.
--Now replace "Iraq" with Iran, Cuba, Greenland, Canada, Mexico, or who knows where else, and you have the situation in 2026 and beyond. I joined the military in 1981 to support and defend the Constitution against dire external threats like the communist dictatorships in the USSR and PRC...not some random goatherders 6,000 miles away who posed zero threat to our homeland, but who had the misfortune of living on ancestral land that harbored natural resources that could be exploited for money by multinational corporations. Now replace "goatherders" with "aboriginal subsistance fishermen"...

7) As I was looking for civilian jobs before the end of my terminal leave, one of the first questions they all asked me was "How likely is it that you will be recalled to active duty and leave our practice at unpredictable intervals for unknown periods of time?"
--I knew that retired military officers can be recalled to active duty involuntarily for the rest of their natural lives, as an 86-year-old psychologist found out during Operation Iraqi Liberation (sic). I didn't want to be that guy in the year 2049.

8) Military interns and residents have work hour restrictions. Attendings don't.
--When, due to sheer poor planning, destruction of anesthesiology residency slots at WHMC, and lack of retention, we went from 11 anesthesiologists at Andrews to 2 (plus a useless Colonel who only did pain management a few days per year, when she wasn't at home watching her children during supposed duty hours on the taxpayer dime), I was forced to take every other night call for three months in a row to maintain the same surgical and OB ops tempo with two anesthesiologists that we had needed ten (useful) ones to accomplish over many years prior, including during my internship there in 1990-1991. I don't think I ever recovered from this, mainly due to the unfairness of it all, in addition to the toxic effects of sleep deprivation. If I had been civilian, I could have quit. As active duty, one cannot quit, no matter how soul-crushing the job becomes (this is not even counting working during a deployment, which usually [historically] risks death through boredom and erosion of clinical skills, rather than overwork per se).

9) I was told independently by both my (nice) Squadron Commander (who replaced the evil one in my final months on active duty) and my (useless) Flight Commander that AFPC did not believe that I would walk away after 15 years. They both told me that the Air Force thought that I was lying about my intentions, possibly to get a better assignment than they planned for me, because almost no one left with so few years until retirement.
--You can question my intelligence, competence, judgment, clothes, and smell all day long. "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man", to quote the sage. The moment the U.S. military questioned my honor after all those years in uniform since age 17: that was it.

See this page for a curated collection of SDN posts on this subject from me and others over many years:
Reasons not to join or stay in military medicine

Best of luck as you make your decision.
 
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2) I could not stand being commanded by idiots who thought they could tell me how to do my job.
3) I could not stand being commanded by non-physicians who merely had date of rank on me.
... interns and residents have work hour restrictions. Attendings don't.

All of these things are true in the civilian world too, FWIW. True, easier to walk away from a civilian job.
 
What does the civilian job market look like for EM these days?
Yeah, depending on where I work, and how hard I work, I could triple my income (estimating for base pay and BAH differences). But probably more so double.

I've got a pretty good moonlighting gig set up that I'm going to take advantage of over the next few months and see what it's like. Might convince me to get out. Or go reserves. Or maybe do some combination of VA, reserves, and locums.

A few good possibilities

Reasons why I left after 15 years toward retirement in 2005...in retrospect.[/B

6) I objected on moral grounds to the war of choice in Iraq that was based on false claims of non-existent WMDs ...


Thanks for your insights. Certainly stuff I need to consider. But also, things come full circle. Didn't want to make this a political post, but since you brought it up, I do have concerns about how our military is currently being used.
 
Being in the reserves and having Tricare definitely gives you an edge to walk away from a bad civilian job. It also opens up more 1099 work since your healthcare is a nonissue.

No idea what the deployment op tempo is like for ER docs, but the shift work nature of the speciality is probably among the most congruent with reserve obligations. The bigger the group, the better.

Plan on saving an extra 800k+ for retirement to equal a reserve retirement.
 
The bad news is that you should have transferred your GI bill to your spouse after 6 years in. The four years is concurrent, but can be transferred between dependents, and it’s a shame no one told you how to access your well deserved benefit.

I will be at 14 and a similar situation. I had AI model my retirement, and the reduced BRS pension always wins in the long run despite the increase in income as a civilian.

So, if you are making the decision, it has to be about your mental well-being. I’ve heard of people dropping dead on year 20, so it’s not worth dying over.

If you are a saver, you can still have a very comfortable retirement, and don’t listen to people who say otherwise. There are plenty of retirement calculators that show you how much you need to save annually, and it is totally obtainable if you live within your means. Don’t listen to people that say it’s impossible because I know a lot of happy working and retired civilians, so it obviously is the norm, and we are all being fed a pension psyop.
Looking for some advice/experiences from those that have made similar decisions in the past.

My time commitment with the Navy is up in 1 year. I'll be at 10 years of active service as a former flight surgeon, FMF, now emergency medicine attending, enrolled in BRS for 9.5 years -maxing it out. I'm a bit (or more than a bit) frustrated with the bureaucracy and time wastage I have to go through as an adult (leave paperwork, back in the saddle training, 101 days of summer don't be stupid training, random urinalysis, etc). But I do enjoy doing the cool stuff. And 10 years is halfway to retirement. But I also feel like it has taken away from my ability to focus on family.

I'm thinking about going off active duty and joining the Navy reserves, Air National Guard, or Army National Guard/reserves. Has anyone gone from active duty to one of these as either EM, or flight surgeon? What's it like? I know it'll be a lot of PHAs and other admin stuff much of the time, but on occasion will get to do cool stuff, CCATT, etc.

I believe you can still get HPSP credit in the Navy for completing 20 years, and I have heard the other services will give you a half year of credit for HPSP time in the reserves.

Also want to add that I'm hoping to have a kid in the next 18 months, and I think in order to give them my GI bill, I'll need to commit to 4 years - which I believe can be in the reserves.

But yeah, 1 year, so trying to figure out my options before it sneaks up on me.
 
The bad news is that you should have transferred your GI bill to your spouse after 6 years in. The four years is concurrent, but can be transferred between dependents, and it’s a shame no one told you how to access your well deserved benefit.

I will be at 14 and a similar situation. I had AI model my retirement, and the reduced BRS pension always wins in the long run despite the increase in income as a civilian.

So, if you are making the decision, it has to be about your mental well-being. I’ve heard of people dropping dead on year 20, so it’s not worth dying over.

If you are a saver, you can still have a very comfortable retirement, and don’t listen to people who say otherwise. There are plenty of retirement calculators that show you how much you need to save annually, and it is totally obtainable if you live within your means. Don’t listen to people that say it’s impossible because I know a lot of happy working and retired civilians, so it obviously is the norm, and we are all being fed a pension psyop.
Thanks for that information. Unfortunately not currently married, but that is good to know, and I will try and let others know about that. I definitely live well under my means and save a lot (especially being single).

And I agree, everything is a psyop. Appreciate the advice.
 
I had approx 12 years TIS between prior enlisted and O time. I was also HPSP. Got totally out to do residency and fellowship. Started to get a little restless, you know how it is...realized that it might be a good idea to finish out my 20years in the reserves. Joined back up, Navy Reserves and got a FS billet (best kept secret in Navy reserves). As I was finishing up my 20, Navy decided to promote me. So took another set of orders to get the three years I needed at rank. Now retired!!

Dude, I was limping along at the end. The credentialing requirements were getting much more stringent. Maybe for EM/FS not so bad, but Anes/FS...I was having trouble with FS case numbers--PHA and pre-deployment screens do not cut it. I don't think I would have re-credentialed as a GMO as I wasn't seeing those types of patients, without significant life impact. Unfunded mandates, struggles with the active duty clinic who don't understand the reserves...it goes on and on.

The travel was getting to me, every month/other month drilling with my squadron. Heavy op tempo. Had deployed with them twice already. All while juggling as a civilian private practice anesthesiologist. Most groups really don't understand and there were some difficulties.

Overall, I am glad I returned and finished. The retirement will be great addition to my overall portfolio. TRICARE insurance. Access to bases and other benefits. Worth it in my opinion.