Staying in Europe

[Megalofyia]

Do you know anyone who went to medical school in Ireland or England and ended up taking perminant residence in Europe, thus not returning to the states?

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[Miklos]

I have friends that graduated from Irish med schools. They enjoyed their time in Ireland, but they all returned.

Principally, they felt that they could do much better in North America, especially as they had large loans to repay and they felt that opportunities for them in the UK and Ireland were limited.

 

[BellKicker]

You may make more money by crossing the channel but then there's the issue of learning a whole new language (unless you already know one).

Then there's the visa issue, which is mission impossible in some areas.

 

[sloneczko]

there has got to be a way. I believe that if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to do it. You need a work permit, first and foremost. to get that, you need to get some connections with physicians in charge at training hospitals in europe and they need to want to take you on.

if you can get some experience at hospitals abroad during medical school it could help!

Remember that non citizens immigrate into the US everday and they do it based on their own will and good immigration lawyers of course ( i know i work in an immigration law firm, and it is all just paperwork and connections). I'm sure they have immigration lawyers who do the same things in europe too.

 

[leorl]

I know people who've done it, but don't know the exact details of their situations. I'll try to ask. It's not impossible. While in the past people have focused on returning, and are still focusing on returning...things are starting to change. The way the dollar is REALLY devaluating against the euro with no end in sight (EEEEPS!!!!), the working conditions we have to face as residents in the US and getting really crap pay for it (20,000 per year for surgery internship?!?!?! sorry, I'm not in medicine for the money, but that would really bother me when a medical lab technician can earn 35,000 starting of), the current situation with losing autonomy because of health insurance companies and lawyers, the outrageous overhead and insurance costs, and the loss of ability to practice where we want (now people are losing jobs if they refuse to go rural)... all these things are making staying in Europe so much more attractive. Especially since as residents you make a ton load more money...might not make as much as a specialist in the US, but still...there's good money over here.

When I first started med school, I really was just focused on going home and I'm still going to do everything I need for it. But I have to say, I am really considering trying to stay in Europe or going to the UK.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by sloneczko
there has got to be a way. I believe that if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to do it. You need a work permit, first and foremost. to get that, you need to get some connections with physicians in charge at training hospitals in europe and they need to want to take you on.

if you can get some experience at hospitals abroad during medical school it could help!

Remember that non citizens immigrate into the US everday and they do it based on their own will and good immigration lawyers of course ( i know i work in an immigration law firm, and it is all just paperwork and connections). I'm sure they have immigration lawyers who do the same things in europe too.

I'm with BK on this issue. Depending on the country, getting a work permit can be a near mission impossible. Unlike the US, most of continental Europe is pretty much closed to immigration. While the US takes in something like 1m immigrants each year, legal, cultural and language barriers keep immigrants out of Europe.

Note that all EU countries except the UK and Ireland recently imposed restrictions on most of the new accession countries, thereby denying the free movement of labor.

I'm not saying it is impossible. It is just very difficult.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by leorl
I know people who've done it, but don't know the exact details of their situations. I'll try to ask. It's not impossible. While in the past people have focused on returning, and are still focusing on returning...things are starting to change. The way the dollar is REALLY devaluating against the euro with no end in sight (EEEEPS!!!!), the working conditions we have to face as residents in the US and getting really crap pay for it (20,000 per year for surgery internship?!?!?! sorry, I'm not in medicine for the money, but that would really bother me when a medical lab technician can earn 35,000 starting of), the current situation with losing autonomy because of health insurance companies and lawyers, the outrageous overhead and insurance costs, and the loss of ability to practice where we want (now people are losing jobs if they refuse to go rural)... all these things are making staying in Europe so much more attractive. Especially since as residents you make a ton load more money...might not make as much as a specialist in the US, but still...there's good money over here.

When I first started med school, I really was just focused on going home and I'm still going to do everything I need for it. But I have to say, I am really considering trying to stay in Europe or going to the UK.

Where are you getting the USD20k figure for PGY1?

 

[leorl]

Unfortunately, word of mouth. I have an acquaintance who graduated from Univ. of Cincinnati and is now doing internship in Cleveland (probably just general surgery). I'm not sure exactly where, I'm hoping it's not at the Cleveland Clinic. But she's only making 20 grand.

 

[neilc]

Originally posted by leorl
Unfortunately, word of mouth. I have an acquaintance who graduated from Univ. of Cincinnati and is now doing internship in Cleveland (probably just general surgery). I'm not sure exactly where, I'm hoping it's not at the Cleveland Clinic. But she's only making 20 grand.

i find that really, really tough to believe. if this is true it is far below what i have seen quoted by programs on the websites, and would be an deviation from the norm. the average seems to be middle thirties for a salary. but, i have seen several in the mid to high forties, and a few in the low thirties. the absolute lowest that i remember seeing was 29k for a PGY1.

best advice is to check out some program websites that you are interested in. they typically have a page for resident benefits that give you a salary breakdown by PGYear, as well as a listing of whatever else they will give you.

 

[leorl]

Yeah, that's why I was like . So I'm hoping that's not the norm...or not indicative of some sort of trend. I thought interns made at least 30k starting off.

 

[tlew12778]

As long as you have a degree issued from a school within the European Union (and both Ireland and England are in the EU), ALL EU countries MUST recognise the degree. It's required by EU law.

That said, you still have to have the degree officially "recognised" which can be a long process. A friend of mine (who is Dutch) is trying to do her residency in Italy and it took her 4 months to get the degree officially recognised, then another year of post grad-"interning" in order to cut through serious Italian red tape. She will take the exam to enter into a residency program this April. No guarantee that she will be admitted though as there simply are not enough spots here.

The visa thing is something to consider but once you are in the EU, it should be relatively easy to convert your student visa into a work visa.

 

[sloneczko]

Well, let's just wait and see what happens with the dollar. We will know in a few years, especially after these ten new member states join the EU. (Not to mention after the 2004 election.) Then we will truly know whether it will be easier to pay our loans back with euros or dollars.

 

[researchprof]

The US doesn't get 1 million immigrants a year. That is not credible; cite your sources Miklos.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by researchprof
The US doesn't get 1 million immigrants a year. That is not credible; cite your sources Miklos.

Au contraire, "researchprof":

Please see http://www.cis.org/topics/currentnumbers.html

During the 1990s, an average of more than 1.3 million immigrants ? legal and illegal ? settled in the United States each year. Between January 2000 and March 2002, 3.3 million additional immigrants have arrived. In less than 50 years, the U.S. Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 288 million to more than 400 million.

The foreign-born population of the United States is currently 33.1 million, equal to 11.5 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Census Bureau estimates 8-9 million are illegal immigrants. Other estimates indicate a considerably higher number of illegal immigrants.

Approximately 1 million people receive permanent residency annually. In addition, the Census Bureau estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually.

The present level of immigration is significantly higher than the average historical level of immigration. This flow may be attributed, in part, to the extraordinary broadening of U.S. immigration policy in 1965. Since 1970, more than 30 million legal and illegal immigrants have settled in the U.S., representing more than one-third of all people ever to come to America's shores.

At the peak of the Great Wave of immigration in 1910, the number of immigrants living in the U.S. was less than half of what it is today, though the percentage of the population was slightly higher. The annual arrival of 1.5 million legal and illegal immigrants, coupled with 750,000 annual births to immigrant women, is the determinate factor? or three-fourths? of all U.S. population growth.

 

[researchprof]

Wow, that's lots of numbers Miklos.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Practicing medicine in Europe is not easy by any means whatsoever. Miklos is correct that although it is not impossible, it is very difficult. There are huge legal difficulties in living in Europe, unless you marry a citizen of the country in which you wish to live in, you will not be able to get the PR to be able to legally live and work in that particular country. Only Britain has recently developed a skilled migrant program but compared to Australia or Canada, Britain's program is highly restrictive. In addition to legal obstacles you have to get over the language and cultural barriers. Not to discourage you but most European doctors make extremely modest incomes compared to their US counterparts. Don't expect to be earning an income that can finance a Mercedes and luxury vacations on the Riviera. Also taxes are much higher in Europe than in the USA and with student loans this can be a big burden.

 

[Megalofyia]

I guess it might make answers different to know that I am already an EU citizen, however I was curious to know about being only an American too.

 

[NewGuyBob]

originally posted by tlew12778
As long as you have a degree issued from a school within the European Union (and both Ireland and England are in the EU), ALL EU countries MUST recognise the degree. It's required by EU law.

Currently I am in my last year in Poland, and all the Brits, Irish and Scandinavians students at my school are getting paid training positions in the UK. No PLAB, IELTS or any exams at ALL The only qualifications required to apply for a training position in the UK are: 1) A medical diploma from a EU member state (including Poland, Hungary, Czech Rep.), and 2) E.U. CITIZENSHIP.
For example, I have an american passport. That means that even though I'll graduate the same Polish program as my European classmates, I must take the PLAB and IELTS before applying to these positions.
Also, right now there is a major physician shortage in the UK. They are recruiting practicing physicians all over the world. Through this recruiting program physicians can go to England and get ALL of their medical education and post graduate training automatically validated. Some of the countries they are recruiting from include New Zealand, E.U. (including new members), India, China etc. But I have no idea if this recruiting program applies to the US.

 

[Allred]

Marry a local. That's how I lived in Sweden.

Now ask me if I was happy there. I'll yell no.

There are many reasons. Living and working are different animals from going to school.

I am glad to be back in the USA. Still married to Swedish lady. Guess how she got into the USA.

 

[Miklos]

originally posted by tlew12778
As long as you have a degree issued from a school within the European Union (and both Ireland and England are in the EU), ALL EU countries MUST recognise the degree. It's required by EU law.

Currently I am in my last year in Poland, and all the Brits, Irish and Scandinavians students at my school are getting paid training positions in the UK. No PLAB, IELTS or any exams at ALL The only qualifications required to apply for a training position in the UK are: 1) A medical diploma from a EU member state (including Poland, Hungary, Czech Rep.), and 2) E.U. CITIZENSHIP.
For example, I have an american passport. That means that even though I'll graduate the same Polish program as my European classmates, I must take the PLAB and IELTS before applying to these positions.
Also, right now there is a major physician shortage in the UK. They are recruiting practicing physicians all over the world. Through this recruiting program physicians can go to England and get ALL of their medical education and post graduate training automatically validated. Some of the countries they are recruiting from include New Zealand, E.U. (including new members), India, China etc. But I have no idea if this recruiting program applies to the US.

Just out of curiousity, how are the Brits/Irish/Scandinavians getting their internships? Are they applying directly to the NHS trusts or is there a program that "recruits" them? I'd be grateful if you could shed any light on this.

Miklos

 

[NewGuyBob]

As far as I know they apply directly to hospitals, they find ads for these positions in some journals or the like, and go to interview. Many of them come back from the interview with an offer. I'll ask what else there is to this process and keep you posted.

 

[Miklos]

Thanks. I appreciate it.

 

[Newquagmire]

While the US takes in something like 1m immigrants each year, legal, cultural and language barriers keep immigrants out of Europe.

Are you saying that immigrants to the US dont face the same barriers??

Britain's program is highly restrictive.

Word. When I came to the UK as a lab tech, the first visa application by my employer got denied. Apparently, the standard for non-EU citizens is to prove that "no one else in the EU can fulfill the job requirements." Thankfully, the appeal eventually went through.

 

[NewGuyBob]

Originally Posted by Newquagmire:
the standard for non-EU citizens is to prove that "no one else in the EU can fulfill the job requirements.

Actually, in theory, residency programs in the US must "prove" that there were no qualified citizens or permanent residents to do the job. They do it every time they sponsor a foreigner for one of those J1 or H1 visas. But apparently it isone of those laws...

Check out this article, funny stuff:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2989959.stm

 

[Miklos]

Are you saying that immigrants to the US dont face the same barriers??



Word. When I came to the UK as a lab tech, the first visa application by my employer got denied. Apparently, the standard for non-EU citizens is to prove that "no one else in the EU can fulfill the job requirements." Thankfully, the appeal eventually went through.

I'm saying that the US is much more open to immigration than Europe for principally political reasons. Immigrants in the US are (if not always) welcomed as new arrivals. Many countries in Europe are 'psychologically' closed to immigration (the UK may be an exception to this). Regarding language, English is a universal language, whereas speaking only English will not allow you to integrate into countries other than the UK and Ireland. With regard to culture, immigrants to the US will almost invariably find fellow immigrant communities that help them integrate, this is not necessarily the case in Europe, especially in small countries.

Regardless of my opinion, look at the numbers. I don't have them on hand, but I read a survey somewhere that showed Europe taking a much smaller number than the US, despite its larger population base leading to demographic problems down the road.

 

[leorl]

A little bit off topic, but I think things will get even harder for non-EU people to immigrate, as the European Union are trying to focus on keeping the "brains" within the EU. ie. retaining scientists, researchers, medics so they don't all rush off to the US for the lifestyle and more money.