Step 2 required for elite programs?

[Adcadet]

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Hey all,
I was planning on taking Step 2 CK in mid-February, as that's when it fits into my schedule and I'd prefer to just let my Step 1 score do the talking. However, I've been hearing rumors that some elite places (MGH, BWH, UCSF, Penn, Duke, Hopkins, etc) highly encourage applicants to have Step 2 scores available in time to interview or by the time ROLs are due. Mayo in particular has this to say:

Selection Criteria

All applicants are required to provide a USMLE transcript in the ERAS application in order to be considered for interview. While we have no minimum requirement for USMLE score, performance on steps 1 and 2 is evaluated carefully, and is one of the most important criteria used to evaluate an applicant. Most candidates selected to interview have a score of 220 or better. The score on step 2 (clinical) is considered to be more predictive of future clinical performance than step 1 (basic science). USMLE web site: http://www.usmle.org/.

Mayo is a participant in the NRMP match, therefore, we must require that all of our candidates be able to sit for the Step 2 CK and CS PRIOR to December 31st, 2006 in order to be considered for a position at Mayo for 2007 .


I find the wording a bit odd - they require that "all of our candidates be able to sit for Step 2"...does this just mean that they require that I'm qualified and cleared by my school and NBME to take it before Dec 31, or that I actually take it?

Do other programs require Step 2? Do other programs heavily encourage applicants to have it available? Or is it just something PDs would like to see but realistically can't and won't on most applicants?

Thanks,
Adcadet

 

[Adcadet]

Bueller? . . . Bueller? . . . Bueller? . . . Bueller?

 

[gutonc]

I'm not aware of any programs that require you to have taken Step 2 if you're an AMG but I may be wrong. Looking at the Mayo site (which I never did when I was applying because I couldn't imagine living in Rochester) there's nothing I found that states you must take Step 2, only that they consider it more highly than Step 1. I did find it interesting however that they require AMGs to complete Step 3 by the end of their R1 year. Not that it's a bad idea or anything, just that it seems like a lot of extra stress for your intern year.

So in a nutshell, I don't think they require Step 2 but if you really want to go there (and you think you can rock Step 2) it might be worth the trouble.

Also, and you didn't ask, if it's not clear yet, nobody gives a **** about Step 2 CS except for the people cashing the checks at NBME so don't worry about having taken that one. Worry about the real Step 2.

Good luck,
BE (now PE)

 

[BigBadBix]

FWIW, I never heard anything of the sort, and I knew many people who didn't take Step 2 until after ROL were due and matched at great places. As long as you have a solid Step 1 score I wouldn't sweat it. You should, of course, check the websites of all the programs to which you're applying to make sure you aren't required to take it.

-BBB

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Hey all,
I was planning on taking Step 2 CK in mid-February, as that's when it fits into my schedule and I'd prefer to just let my Step 1 score do the talking. However, I've been hearing rumors that some elite places (MGH, BWH, UCSF, Penn, Duke, Hopkins, etc) highly encourage applicants to have Step 2 scores available in time to interview or by the time ROLs are due. Mayo in particular has this to say:

Selection Criteria

All applicants are required to provide a USMLE transcript in the ERAS application in order to be considered for interview. While we have no minimum requirement for USMLE score, performance on steps 1 and 2 is evaluated carefully, and is one of the most important criteria used to evaluate an applicant. Most candidates selected to interview have a score of 220 or better. The score on step 2 (clinical) is considered to be more predictive of future clinical performance than step 1 (basic science). USMLE web site: http://www.usmle.org/.

Mayo is a participant in the NRMP match, therefore, we must require that all of our candidates be able to sit for the Step 2 CK and CS PRIOR to December 31st, 2006 in order to be considered for a position at Mayo for 2007 .


I find the wording a bit odd - they require that "all of our candidates be able to sit for Step 2"...does this just mean that they require that I'm qualified and cleared by my school and NBME to take it before Dec 31, or that I actually take it?

Do other programs require Step 2? Do other programs heavily encourage applicants to have it available? Or is it just something PDs would like to see but realistically can't and won't on most applicants?

Thanks,
Adcadet

Is this a new thing or has Mayo always encouraged a Step 2 score before ROL?? While on the topic of Mayo.....do you know when they send out interviews?

 

[48 hours]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but does anyone know if this Mayo thing is for Internal Medicine? Has anyone seen anything similar on any other websites?

Damn it ... I guess I better get to researching programs.

It's absolutely astounding how I can sit at my computer all day and still get nothing done. 🙄

 

[DRDARIA]

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but does anyone know if this Mayo thing is for Internal Medicine? Has anyone seen anything similar on any other websites?

Damn it ... I guess I better get to researching programs.

It's absolutely astounding how I can sit at my computer all day and still get nothing done. 🙄

I don't know if this is any help or not, but I got interviews to good places without Step II, but after my Step II score came back, I got interviews at my top choices, which were top 10-15 programs (but I didn't apply to Hopkins or MGH as I had previously lived on the East coast and refused to do it again). I had a solid, well above average Step I, but much better Step II. Remember, you can always elect not to immediately release your Step II, and then if you like it, release it.

 

[halogen]

How are programs notified that your step 2 is in/released? since they already downloaded step 1....is there a separate email notification?

 

[Mumpu]

Taking Step 2CK early and doing well on it can be very advantageous if you are applying for competitive programs.

They should be able to figure out if you speek Inglish good during the interviews, the $1500 "Certificate of Inglish-speeking" is a formality. My med school required everyone to take Step 2CK and CS by December 31 but this was to make sure we had time for a re-do in case of brain failure.

 

[bobg504]

Hey all,
I was planning on taking Step 2 CK in mid-February, as that's when it fits into my schedule and I'd prefer to just let my Step 1 score do the talking. However, I've been hearing rumors that some elite places (MGH, BWH, UCSF, Penn, Duke, Hopkins, etc) highly encourage applicants to have Step 2 scores available in time to interview or by the time ROLs are due. Mayo in particular has this to say:

Selection Criteria

All applicants are required to provide a USMLE transcript in the ERAS application in order to be considered for interview. While we have no minimum requirement for USMLE score, performance on steps 1 and 2 is evaluated carefully, and is one of the most important criteria used to evaluate an applicant. Most candidates selected to interview have a score of 220 or better. The score on step 2 (clinical) is considered to be more predictive of future clinical performance than step 1 (basic science). USMLE web site: http://www.usmle.org/.

Mayo is a participant in the NRMP match, therefore, we must require that all of our candidates be able to sit for the Step 2 CK and CS PRIOR to December 31st, 2006 in order to be considered for a position at Mayo for 2007 .


I find the wording a bit odd - they require that "all of our candidates be able to sit for Step 2"...does this just mean that they require that I'm qualified and cleared by my school and NBME to take it before Dec 31, or that I actually take it?

Do other programs require Step 2? Do other programs heavily encourage applicants to have it available? Or is it just something PDs would like to see but realistically can't and won't on most applicants?

Thanks,
Adcadet

Hi,

I am wondering where you got this from? I have looked at all 3 IM Residency websites: http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/internalmed-rch-admission.html , http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/im-jax-application.html , http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/internalmed-sct.html
I have not seen the info on any of the sites. Can you post the link?

 

[DRDARIA]

How are programs notified that your step 2 is in/released? since they already downloaded step 1....is there a separate email notification?

I think when you release the info, the next time they do a download from ERAS they get that. Whether or not it catches their attention or not is another question. Same as if you're adding LORs after their initial download of your app, I guess. They do get it if you release it though. I promise 🙂

 

[48 hours]

How are programs notified that your step 2 is in/released? since they already downloaded step 1....is there a separate email notification?

Exactly. Whenever you make any changes or additions to your ERAS, the programs are notified. Then they can go to the ERAS site and download the new info. like say, an updated USMLE transcript, perhaps.... Plus, I think all programs definitely download your MSPE in Nov, so they'll for sure get all other new info with that download I would think.

I don't have my step 2 scores back yet, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to keep them a secret as long as I can. 😳

Anyone know how much AOA status plays into top IM programs?

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Exactly. Whenever you make any changes or additions to your ERAS, the programs are notified. Then they can go to the ERAS site and download the new info. like say, an updated USMLE transcript, perhaps.... Plus, I think all programs definitely download your MSPE in Nov, so they'll for sure get all other new info with that download I would think.

I don't have my step 2 scores back yet, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to keep them a secret as long as I can. 😳

Anyone know how much AOA status plays into top IM programs?

In the 2005 match for Internal Medicine......around 15% of matched applicants had AOA status.....versus in Derm around 50% had it.

Hope that helps...

 

[Adcadet]

FWIW, of the cat IM residents I spoke to at Mayo, few had taken Step II in time for interviews and ROLs.

 

[48 hours]

Anyone have advice on what's a good enough Step 2 CK score that you would choose to re-release your USMLE transcript?

I just got my scores back, so I'm curious about whether or not I should check that second box on ERAS.

In case anyone cares... (At least on my sheet) ..usmle reports a mean of 221 (w/ SD of 24) w/ most scores falling between 140 and 260.

So, would you think anything above avg is good? Or anything above your Step 1 score, though I could have sworn the mean on my step 1 was lower than that....

 

[Analyzethis]

When I got my step 1 and 2 scores back the mean was right at 216 so I believe it changes from test to test.

And for those who were saying they would not ever ocnsider mayo because they dont want to live in rochester-may I remind you they have a beautiful and I mean BEAUTIFUL campus here in scottsdale-a beautiful city, warm and a great place to train. Also one in florida but have never been there. If I were doing IM-which I am not but was interested so checked out a bunch of programs and rotated at the mayo here-it was an amazing place to train

 

[ucla2usc]

In the 2005 match for Internal Medicine......around 15% of matched applicants had AOA status.....versus in Derm around 50% had it.

Hope that helps...

That stat is misleading because there is a huge variation in competitiveness for various im programs, but all of Derm is uniformily really competitive.
i.e. lower tier programs generally don't always fill and often will have zero AOA residents, whereas programs like UCSF about 80-90% of the residents will be AOA because they only interview the "top 10%" of applicants. This is also skewed because there are a lot more lower tier programs than top ones.

 

[Mumpu]

Logic would suggest your step 2 should be no worse than your step 1.

 

[Analyzethis]

Well that is a silly comment-you can say the same for derm at UCSF-100 percent of people are AOA, or any other top derm program I am sure 95 percent are AOA so really the 50 percent is a low number in comparison-you cant go by the top schools-you go by averages to compare-and that is what those figures are-averages are just that-MOST people fall within the average rather than the extremes

 

[ucla2usc]

1

 

[ucla2usc]

Well that is a silly comment-you can say the same for derm at UCSF-100 percent of people are AOA, or any other top derm program I am sure 95 percent are AOA so really the 50 percent is a low number in comparison-you cant go by the top schools-you go by averages to compare-and that is what those figures are-averages are just that-MOST people fall within the average rather than the extremes

In the 2005 match for Internal Medicine......around 15% of matched applicants had AOA status.....versus in Derm around 50% had it.

Hope that helps...

THese stats are referring to ALL of IM and the question was about stats for TOP IM programs. Therefore the stats are very misleading because top IM programs are extremely selective and far more than 15% of residents were AOA.

 

[48 hours]

Logic would suggest your step 2 should be no worse than your step 1.

Yes, I understand that, but I guess I am asking if anyone knows if they can be directly compared? I mean, is a score of X on step 1 considered the same as a score of X on Step 2?

Sorry, I might be reading a little too much into this. So, the consensus is Step 2 > Step 1, then automatically release Step 2 scores?

 

[braindrain78]

I was told to only take step 2 if you didn't do too well on step 1. and your goal for CK at that point is to do very well. which means at least 2 std dev's over mean in order to help out your step 1 score

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

THese stats are referring to ALL of IM and the question was about stats for TOP IM programs. Therefore the stats are very misleading because top IM programs are extremely selective and far more than 15% of residents were AOA.

At the top IM programs do you think nearly 50% are AOA members?

 

[dukeblue01]

At the very top programs it is more like 80-90% of the selected interns are AOA (or would be, schools like Harvard do not have AOA).

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

At the very top programs it is more like 80-90% of the selected interns are AOA (or would be, schools like Harvard do not have AOA).

That sucks! If your school has no AOA....you are screwed...no matter what you do!

 

[ekydrd]

... I did find it interesting however that they require AMGs to complete Step 3 by the end of their R1 year. Not that it's a bad idea or anything, just that it seems like a lot of extra stress for your intern year...

I am at a mid tier school and we require Step 3 during the intern year in order to receive your state license for your PGY-2 year and beyond (interns are not licensed in Kentucky). This is pretty much the norm across the board, but some programs (or at least the states they are in) don't care about step 3 as long as it is taken and passed prior to applying for a permanent license.