Still a chance for high-tier IM programs? What could I do /now/ to help match back where my SO lives?

[JeremiahJohnson]

I go to a no-name school in the midwest, in the top 5% of my class, 95th+ percentile on all my shelf exams, and about to start dedicated for Step 2 in 3 weeks. I know it's not a score in hand, but I took a FL practice exam that had me at 268 and given my Shelf scores I imagine getting a 260+ is quite doable. I've got some better-than-normal ECs I'd say as well, and have gotten awards and acknowledgments for them.

I'm shooting for high-tier IM programs in the Northeast. I've got ties to the region, and my SO's career is in NYC so I honestly want to be there as this distance has just been miserable and given her career she can't really move nor does she have the desire to anyways. Why top tier? Well why not. I'm not gonna be bummed if I don't match at one of them, but I do like to have choices. Plus, all the "quality" programs in NYC seem to be top tier.

My only issue is I've got zero research. I've done two posters and I've got nothing else to my name unfortunately.

Should I be doing aways to try and get my foot in the door? Should I get into research, if so how and what can I do to get something out there before September? Any tips/guides on doing this efficiently and effectively as someone with minimal research know-how?

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[Putkernerinthehall]

What specialty ?

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

What specialty ?

Can't believe I forgot to add that:

IM

 

[imidazzle92]

I have heard mixed things about IM aways, but mostly that they don't help a ton and you run the risk of them hurting your chances.

Ask your school to see who has done aways vs. how many of them matched at the places they did aways; also how many matched at top programs who didn't do aways. This sort of school-specific data may help you decide on aways.

Post Step 2 - could probably get on a quick project or two and at least have a submitted publication. Just be upfront with attendings and say you want to get something quick.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I have heard mixed things about IM aways, but mostly that they don't help a ton and you run the risk of them hurting your chances.

I've heard this is mostly an issue of personality. But good advice, I'll reach out to my school about that data.

Post Step 2 - could probably get on a quick project or two and at least have a submitted publication. Just be upfront with attendings and say you want to get something quick.

Sounds good, I'll reach out to productive M4s and see if they have any suggestions for attendings to work with

 

[obiwan]

I think the best thing that you can do to help solidify your profile is having an early solid sub-I month with strong LORs and then taking Step 2 with a good score. Sure you can do an away rotation but in reality, there can be challenges in getting acclimated to a new hospital system and potentially having to learn a new EMR system so could take time before you start performing on all cylinders to impress.

FWIW, I went to a school that is the furthest thing from being a brand name with minimal research and was able to snag an interview from one of the top tier NYC programs

 

[GoSpursGo]

If you really get 260+ I think you have a solid shot at very good IM programs. But yes, try to get something research wise. Speak with a mentor in IM and see what advice they have for you—we could make something up, but really you need the name of some high quantity PIs at your home school, and that’s going to take insider info

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I think the best thing that you can do to help solidify your profile is having an early solid sub-I month with strong LORs and then taking Step 2 with a good score. Sure you can do an away rotation but in reality, there can be challenges in getting acclimated to a new hospital system and potentially having to learn a new EMR system so could take time before you start performing on all cylinders to impress.

FWIW, I went to a school that is the furthest thing from being a brand name with minimal research and was able to snag an interview from one of the top tier NYC programs

If you really get 260+ I think you have a solid shot at very good IM programs. But yes, try to get something research wise. Speak with a mentor in IM and see what advice they have for you—we could make something up, but really you need the name of some high quantity PIs at your home school, and that’s going to take insider info

Thanks for the advice.

Outside of knocking Step 2 out, seems it'd be most prudent to just straight up message our research dean and be like "hey, my application seems competitive in every aspect but research anyone you can connect me to who is productive that can help me just get a few whatever pubs before ERAS?"

 

[GoSpursGo]

Thanks for the advice.

Outside of knocking Step 2 out, seems it'd be most prudent to just straight up message our research dean and be like "hey, my application seems competitive in every aspect but research anyone you can connect me to who is productive that can help me just get a few whatever pubs before ERAS?"

It may be more productive if you have a personal mentor who can direct you more specifically to projects which might be appropriate. If not, then the research dean makes as much sense as anyone. But the key is you need to get started soon.

 

[obiwan]

Thanks for the advice.

Outside of knocking Step 2 out, seems it'd be most prudent to just straight up message our research dean and be like "hey, my application seems competitive in every aspect but research anyone you can connect me to who is productive that can help me just get a few whatever pubs before ERAS?"

It doesn't hurt to ask but realize that it won't be too long before you start submitting your application and it really does take time to get anything productive for research especially getting a publication which takes much longer than a few months from start to finish. Also, not sure how research heavy your institution is, its one thing if you go to Hopkins where they have research funding in the magnitude of hundreds of millions of dollars where everyone is trying publish so lots of opportunities to find someone to link up to vs not. But as above, you need to start NOW

 

[PathNeuroIMorFM]

95th+ percentile on all my shelf exams I took a FL practice exam that had me at 268

I gotta ask, how in the world are you studying for shelves and Step 2 to get such insane scores?

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I gotta ask, how in the world are you studying for shelves and Step 2 to get such insane scores?

I'll be honest I can't help much here. I've just been doing a pass of the UWorld questions related to the block I'm on. I've always been a good exam taker (1600 SAT, 526 MCAT, etc).

Don't worry I've got my deficits in plenty of other areas that my peers excel in and who I constantly learn from haha

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

School prestige is very important for IM so I would keep that in mind when making list

 

[lacrossegirl420]

Lol you don’t have to justify why you want to go to a top tier. Anyways you should be fine

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Lol you don’t have to justify why you want to go to a top tier. Anyways you should be fine

Lol, ofc, just wanted to avoid the "why do you even wanna go to a top tier program anyways" that I see come up consistently

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Some programs only look at stats and don't bother to interview. Some programs put value on auditions. I have always felt auditions were important as your performance might push you over top on their match list. Seek out upper classemen and grads who currently attend or audition programs on your list. Seek out grads from your school who have matched at top programs. Programs who have had positive experience with grads from you school may be inclined to look at you too. Also, seek out Dept Chairs from your home program,target program or who would be known by the program for LORs. Competitive programs receive competitive applications, so yours should be one too. Agree with the above advice on getting some research. You will need many boxes checked to be accepted, so focus on what you can affect. Some say auditions don't matter much for IM, but shining during an audition has to have value.
Above all..
Watch your top knot Jeremiah Johnson....

Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Tenk]

You seem like a pretty good student. Try to find someone at your home program who knows someone back east and have them reach out/vouch for you. That goes a lot further than you’d think. Residencies want good students who work hard and don’t cause drama. When you have someone you already like vouching for another person, it’s worth more than a good letter or a research project.

 

[acapnial]

Some programs only look at stats and don't bother to interview. Some programs put value on auditions. I have always felt auditions were important as your performance might push you over top on their match list. Seek out upper classemen and grads who currently attend or audition programs on your list. Seek out grads from your school who have matched at top programs. Programs who have had positive experience with grads from you school may be inclined to look at you too. Also, seek out Dept Chairs from your home program,target program or who would be known by the program for LORs. Competitive programs receive competitive applications, so yours should be one too. Agree with the above advice on getting some research. You will need many boxes checked to be accepted, so focus on what you can affect. Some say auditions don't matter much for IM, but shining during an audition has to have value.
Above all..
Watch your top knot Jeremiah Johnson....

Good luck and best wishes!

When I was a resident I was told our positive opinions on rotating students (and the attending's opinions) could potentially move you up the rank list somewhat, but would never turn a non-interview into an interview

 

[deleted1095841]

What about taking an extra year for research? Does your school allow it?

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

What about taking an extra year for research? Does your school allow it?

Lol that's possible but no way am I taking a whole year just to increase my odds to match at places that I'd already stand a chance at right now

 

[deleted1095841]

Lol that's possible but no way am I taking a whole year just to increase my odds to match at places that I'd already stand a chance at right now

Fair. It's just that the goal of nearly every top-tier programs is to train academic physicians, which means they really really like research. I hear that sometimes it's even more important than clinical grades.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You definitely need at least a few case reports

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Fair. It's just that the goal of nearly every top-tier programs is to train academic physicians, which means they really really like research. I hear that sometimes it's even more important than clinical grades.

That seems to be the case for some of those programs for sure, and those are ones I'm uninterested in as they don't align with my goals, but there are others that have two tracks - research vs clinical, and folks from my school have matched in these programs with ~2 pubs

 

[deleted1095841]

That seems to be the case for some of those programs for sure, and those are ones I'm uninterested in as they don't align with my goals, but there are others that have two tracks - research vs clinical, and folks from my school have matched in these programs with ~2 pubs

Cool, makes sense. Are you talking about Mt. Sinai?

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Cool, makes sense. Are you talking about Mt. Sinai?

That's one of them yea. My school for the top IM programs has had a decent amount of folks match to Sinai, UPenn, BIDMS, UCLA, who've I've reached out to who had less than 2-3pubs / limited research experience.

 

[Niwrad]

I remember some friends from high school and colleges who literally aced all their exams.

One thing I’d say is you lose a lot on other skills to reach the 100th percentile rank on standardized exams. I’d love to see some research into whether or not something can be measured to demonstrate what domains are loss as a result.

One guess would be creativity - standardization literally is to reduce originality. I think unless your first attempt is already at the 90th-100th percentile, any additional cognitive effort towards exam prep is detrimental towards future career prospects. That same friend I know who scored at the 100th percentile failed to get into any “top tier” colleges and everyone in our class already knows why.



Also NE programs understand you need research to be competitive, but also consider your school’s relative abundance of research opportunities. Therefore you should only need whatever resources your school provides.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I remember some friends from high school and colleges who literally aced all their exams.

One thing I’d say is you lose a lot on other skills to reach the 100th percentile rank on standardized exams. I’d love to see some research into whether or not something can be measured to demonstrate what domains are loss as a result.

One guess would be creativity - standardization literally is to reduce originality. I think unless your first attempt is already at the 90th-100th percentile, any additional cognitive effort towards exam prep is detrimental towards future career prospects. That same friend I know who scored at the 100th percentile failed to get into any “top tier” colleges and everyone in our class already knows why.



Also NE programs understand you need research to be competitive, but also consider your school’s relative abundance of research opportunities. Therefore you should only need whatever resources your school provides.

I study far less than my peers so I wouldn't say I'm milking out those last percentiles so to speak, I'm just a great test taker. My free time is spent on hobbies and personal projects/ECs/work. I'd say I'm quite creative 😅, but I'm bias


And the latter point makes sense ty

EDIT: just messaged some old chief residents, got on three case reports woo.

 

[Niwrad]

I study far less than my peers so I wouldn't say I'm milking out those last percentiles so to speak, I'm just a great test taker. My free time is spent on hobbies and personal projects/ECs/work. I'd say I'm quite creative 😅, but I'm bias


And the latter point makes sense ty

EDIT: just messaged some old chief residents, got on three case reports woo.

Hmm… then your peers must study a lot!!