militarymd

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So I'm in one of the other forums...having this raging debate over Affirmative Action with someone on the admission committee of some medical school...

Anyways, in the end, I brought up a point which she won't answer/address...her silence is deafening....IMHO....

So, I figure I'll stir some stuff up here in our forum with all the folks that I know (at least in cyberspace)

So AA or no AA?
 
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militarymd

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Her point. URMs are just as qualified as everyone else.


My question. Why do URMs have difficulty in passing USMLE and ultimately becoming Board Certified.

Her answer....she won't respond.
 

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Would you really care to hear the possible answers? Truly? What's the point.. Speculation with no evidence doesn't mean much...

URMs don't do as well on the boards because the boards are time based that require verbal skill. That's my true crack at it. If the boards were not time based (take as much time on a question as you want) you would see less of a difference in URM performance but even then they would be at a disadvantage because URM are not exposed to verbally complicated education with English words as much as the caucasian... (If the majority of you family barely got through high school, then you probably wont be exposed to complex verbal phrases.) If I had to bet on something, I'd bet that the English-Verbal background you come from is a better predictor of USMLE scores. Hence hte big emphasis on Verbal in the MCATs.

(I remember one guy once, very sharp guy, was telling me his frustration on how he missed a question because he didn't know the meaning of the word Obtunded. It's not a word commonly used but many people born and raised in the US know it.)

There is a second reason but minor. URMs are usually less money supported and can afford luxuries less and less. They can't afford the special 5000 dollar course kaplan and are more likely to go for the books only and q-bank or something like that, giving them less practice (apply same concept to the MCAT really). (Heh, I can't imagine paying 3000 dollars for a special kaplan course for Step 2 but I am sure it happens out there.) I claim this to be a minor reason because loans are usually generous towards courses but infact loans don't cover everyone equally (I know for a fact cause my wife had maxed her loans out after third year, coming into med school with huge loans from undergrad and grad.) I wont dive how URM are more likely to have bad credit and less likely to get the mini loans for courses accepted.

There are a couple of other reasons but why bother.... speculation right?
 

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I guess every time I start to think about this issue in the medical field, I ask myself if I want to be cared for, when I'm really sick/fixin to die, by the person that got in with lower scores on their tests but were a URM, or by the person that simply got high scores (URM or not). I think most people would opt for the latter if given the choice.
 

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Faebinder said:
Would you really care to hear the possible answers? Truly? What's the point.. Speculation with no evidence doesn't mean much...

URMs don't do as well on the boards because the boards are time based that require verbal skill. That's my true crack at it. If the boards were not time based (take as much time on a question as you want) you would see less of a difference in URM performance but even then they would be at a disadvantage because URM are not exposed to verbally complicated education with English words as much as the caucasian... (If the majority of you family barely got through high school, then you probably wont be exposed to complex verbal phrases.) If I had to bet on something, I'd bet that the English-Verbal background you come from is a better predictor of USMLE scores. Hence hte big emphasis on Verbal in the MCATs.

(I remember one guy once, very sharp guy, was telling me his frustration on how he missed a question because he didn't know the meaning of the word Obtunded. It's not a word commonly used but many people born and raised in the US know it.)

There is a second reason but minor. URMs are usually less money supported and can afford luxuries less and less. They can't afford the special 5000 dollar course kaplan and are more likely to go for the books only and q-bank or something like that, giving them less practice (apply same concept to the MCAT really). (Heh, I can't imagine paying 3000 dollars for a special kaplan course for Step 2 but I am sure it happens out there.) I claim this to be a minor reason because loans are usually generous towards courses but infact loans don't cover everyone equally (I know for a fact cause my wife had maxed her loans out after third year, coming into med school with huge loans from undergrad and grad.) I wont dive how URM are more likely to have bad credit and less likely to get the mini loans for courses accepted.

There are a couple of other reasons but why bother.... speculation right?
I used to buy in to the access to resources argument. We can all agree how expensive test prep can be etc. That's a fact.

But, this summer, while arriving early for an undergrad histo course I'm taking (start MS1 is 2 weeks!) I strolled into a room on the same floor as our lab is located. The room had a bunch of computers in it, but as soon as I walked into the room, I was asked "can I help you?" in this not-so-nice tone. As it turns out, the room was dedicated to URMs only, and I then noticed signs posted above each of the tubes, "MCAT", "DAT", "KAPLAN", "LSAT"..........
I was told that the room was only "for certain students", but when I looked around, it was obvious that those "certain students" were all minorities.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about a level playing field. And resources (such as a limited # of computers) are finite, so tough decisions are necessary in order to make sure those resources go to those most in need. However, just because someone is an URM does not necessarily mean they are most in need of that kind of over and above assistance, that is off limits to non-URMs.

Also, many official post-bacc programs (versus just registering as a general post-bacc student in order to take any variety of classes) that are affiliated with many med schools are restricted to disadvantaged status applicants, and most of those are URM only. So, I'm not sure I'm buying the access to resources stuff anymore.

Regarding the language barrier thing, perhaps that's an argument for English only, and the discouragement of using slang in our school systems. The hippop culture seen in many urban districts is completely detrimental to success in mainstream society. And no, that doesn't mean "white" society. But, we all need to play by the same rules. Just my two cents.
 

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Seriouly, if URM's are just as qualified as everyone else why do they have to state that they are a URM? They wouldn't have trouble getting in on their own in the first place.
 

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militarymd said:
My question. Why do URMs have difficulty in passing USMLE and ultimately becoming Board Certified.

.
do they?

at my hospital there are plenty of black and hispanic physicians who are board certified.. which means i think they passed usmle

take this back to the forum that it was meant for
 

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I don't understand how anyone could claim that URM are as qualified as everyone else. They obviously are not based on all objective measurements of qualifications. Basically, people can just put their heads in the sand and believe whatever the heck they want despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Sometimes the truth hurts so just ignore it.
 

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militarymd said:
Her point. URMs are just as qualified as everyone else.


My question. Why do URMs have difficulty in passing USMLE and ultimately becoming Board Certified.

Her answer....she won't respond.
I will venture cautiously here since it is not a drug related topic....so - you can all disregard anything I say completely!

In my field.....which is not representative of medicine, surely, but - it is very much dependepent upon communication. Verbal communication is a key element to the accuracy of pharmacists (this has been documented in studies). My state - CA, has many URM's - not only as residents, but also as immigrants who qualify to enter pharmacy school. These folks are very smart and capable in test scores and on paper, but their verbal language skills are not sufficient to communicate effectively with prescribers (or their support staff) and patients - which is what my field does - communicate!

So...about 8-10 years ago (I can't remember exactly), my state instituted a verbal qualifying examination to successfully graduate from a CA pharmacy school and for those applying for a license who are foreign graduates. The idea being that by the time the student has finished his/her graduate studies, he/she should have enough working usage of the language to be able to pass the licensing examination. (In other words - know what obtunded means....) If the student doesn't pass the exam, the student doesn't graduate until he/she does - a great motivator to learn the language!

Now...the major differences in our fields is your examinations are not only earlier (Step 1 is before rotations, I think????), but they are more frequent. We have one - unless it is for a board certified residency...then there is another in the speciality.

I have my own opinion, but it is irrelevant.....just thought I'd "communicate" the experience that pharmacy has had with the situation, for what its worth.....hmmmm....nothing! ;)
 

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seattledoc said:
I guess every time I start to think about this issue in the medical field, I ask myself if I want to be cared for, when I'm really sick/fixin to die, by the person that got in with lower scores on their tests but were a URM, or by the person that simply got high scores (URM or not). I think most people would opt for the latter if given the choice.
So I guess you would rather have the relatively new attending with 99 on all his boards and 5 years of experience vs the attending with low/mediocre scores and 25 years of experience?

Err... heh. No thank you, give me the guy who has been around the block 25 years.
 

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Faebinder said:
So I guess you would rather have the relatively new attending with 99 on all his boards and 5 years of experience vs the attending with low/mediocre scores and 25 years of experience?

Err... heh. No thank you, give me the guy who has been around the block 25 years.
It really depends HOW sick you are. Simple flu. The 25 year experienced URM. Anything else. The 5 year non-URM bad ass gunner.
 

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AA in college admissions and beyond is the biggest scam since the inception of 'liberal arts' education. It's simply not just policy.

You can't compare two people using two different standards and be considered anything but unjust. Veer from a screening process that is based on performance and who people are as human beings and you get a system that will not only decrease the quality of your class but will also do well to demean the entire population for which you've offered the lower standard.

That said, I am all about diversity and if it can be had while maintaining a uniform standard--be diverse!
 

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hudsontc said:
AA in college admissions and beyond is the biggest scam since the inception of 'liberal arts' education. It's simply not just policy.

You can't compare two people using two different standards and be considered anything but unjust. Veer from a screening process that is based on performance and who people are as human beings and you get a system that will not only decrease the quality of your class but will also do well to demean the entire population for which you've offered the lower standard.

That said, I am all about diversity and if it can be had while maintaining a uniform standard--be diverse!
Your totally my new hero. Very, very nicely said. Bravo.
 

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Non-URM physicians generally do not practice in URM communities without massive incentives. URM physicians don't flock to URM communities either but are more likely to set up shop there than their white or asian colleagues. So if your goal is to provide physician manpower to URM patients, AA is a viable strategy. A doctor with lower board scores is better than no doc at all.

We all know specialty board certification is correlated with improved outcomes in the case of anesthesia. I was unaware that URMs have a lower board certification rate than non-URMs, or that there was any correlation between USMLE performance and future performance as a mature practitioner. It would be great to see a reference. I have seen studies showing SAT performance is predictive of performance on future standardized tests, but not of college GPA.

If your goal is to provide admissions "fairness" to all whiny upper middle class premeds, the value of AA is dubious. I attended medical school in NYC, one of the most diverse places in the world. My class had one woman from Puerto Rico and two blacks who entered in 3rd year through a city program. The rest were white or asian. At least 70% of my class was from Long Island, NY, Westchester County NY, Bergen County NJ, Fairfax VA, and Montgomery County MD. In my class of 130 students, we had 7 guys named David and 7 named Scott. Talk about lack of diversity. We all grew up with the admissions system which was set up by and for people like us. We were insiders playing an insiders game. Too bad for the URMs with their clueless parents who couldn't move them into a decent school district.

Both racism and AA are realities of our society. To me a non-URM who blames AA for their personal failure = URM who blames racism for theirs. Mil, would you want an AA whiner to be your partner?
 

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sdn1977 said:
I will venture cautiously here since it is not a drug related topic....so - you can all disregard anything I say completely!

In my field.....which is not representative of medicine, surely, but - it is very much dependepent upon communication. Verbal communication is a key element to the accuracy of pharmacists (this has been documented in studies). My state - CA, has many URM's - not only as residents, but also as immigrants who qualify to enter pharmacy school. These folks are very smart and capable in test scores and on paper, but their verbal language skills are not sufficient to communicate effectively with prescribers (or their support staff) and patients - which is what my field does - communicate!

So...about 8-10 years ago (I can't remember exactly), my state instituted a verbal qualifying examination to successfully graduate from a CA pharmacy school and for those applying for a license who are foreign graduates. The idea being that by the time the student has finished his/her graduate studies, he/she should have enough working usage of the language to be able to pass the licensing examination. (In other words - know what obtunded means....) If the student doesn't pass the exam, the student doesn't graduate until he/she does - a great motivator to learn the language!

Now...the major differences in our fields is your examinations are not only earlier (Step 1 is before rotations, I think????), but they are more frequent. We have one - unless it is for a board certified residency...then there is another in the speciality.

I have my own opinion, but it is irrelevant.....just thought I'd "communicate" the experience that pharmacy has had with the situation, for what its worth.....hmmmm....nothing! ;)

Great post. Although a significant number of my patients are Spanish speaking, my Spanish is shamefully bad. Even if I can glean the necessary clinical information through our preop questionaire and an interpreter, I cannot develop the same level of trust and reassurance that I can with my English speaking patients. In that sense I fail them. Back to the CDs for me.
 
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militarymd

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Faebinder said:
So I guess you would rather have the relatively new attending with 99 on all his boards and 5 years of experience vs the attending with low/mediocre scores and 25 years of experience?

Err... heh. No thank you, give me the guy who has been around the block 25 years.


That is the CRNA argument....CRNAs don't take offense...you guys know where I stand.
 
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militarymd

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nimbus said:
Mil, would you want an AA whiner to be your partner?
All of my partners are high performing "AA whiners".

Uhhh...and I'm referring to US born URMs.
 

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nrut88 said:
It really depends HOW sick you are. Simple flu. The 25 year experienced URM. Anything else. The 5 year non-URM bad ass gunner.
I weigh in carefully, but I will say this. There is often a broad gulf between book knowledge and the ability to apply said knowledge practically. There are plenty of people with 99% boards who are the "gunners" you speak so highly of, but don't know their arm from their anus in the OR. If I'm the patient, give me somebody who has both, but preferrably somebody who won't kill me in the OR while mentally masturbating about esoterica and patting themselves on the back for being in the top percentile while I desat because they forgot to turn the ventilator on.

PMMD
 

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nimbus said:
Non-URM physicians generally do not practice in URM communities without massive incentives. URM physicians don't flock to URM communities either but are more likely to set up shop there than their white or asian colleagues. So if your goal is to provide physician manpower to URM patients, AA is a viable strategy. A doctor with lower board scores is better than no doc at all.
Exactly. Many minorities want to visit a physician of their race due to preference, comfort, better cultural undrestanding, etc. If no minorities are trained then the URM dominated areas will be even more underserved adn teh minorities may not get any care at all (due to discomfort with the race/culture/whatever of the physician that may be available). Kinda like in OB/GYN, some women prefer female GYN docs, some prefer male, and some really don't care as along they are comfortable. Some URMs will prefer someone they feel they can relate to better, others may be happy with Mass Gen's finest regardless of the race.

That being said, is it fair for a candidate with better credentials to be passed over for a URM. No. But life isn't always fair.
 
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militarymd

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nimbus said:
We all know specialty board certification is correlated with improved outcomes in the case of anesthesia. I was unaware that URMs have a lower board certification rate than non-URMs, or that there was any correlation between USMLE performance and future performance as a mature practitioner. It would be great to see a reference. I have seen studies showing SAT performance is predictive of performance on future standardized tests, but not of college GPA.
I had the data in 1997 when I finished residency and started preparing for the Oral Boards.....since then, I think the data has been "buried"

Here is a link to a single institution experience on USMLE and medical school graduation.

I believe that medical school performance ultimately predicts residency and post-residency performance.

For those who don't believe that, then we just have differences in opinion/observation....and there is nothing else to discuss.
 

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Faebinder said:
So I guess you would rather have the relatively new attending with 99 on all his boards and 5 years of experience vs the attending with low/mediocre scores and 25 years of experience?

Err... heh. No thank you, give me the guy who has been around the block 25 years.
My initial point should have been prefaced by, all other things being equal...yes experience does count for something but your arguement is weak and transparent in sidestepping the issue brought up by my original concern.
 

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I only read the initial message and read some of the responses. Since we are in the business of posting what is on our minds "and stirring up stuff" I think the original poster is an idiot. Keep this crap to yourself. You are clearly one of many of the arrogant people that I have met in my career in medicine. You have absolutely no idea how it feels walking in the shoes of an underrepresented minority in the United States, especially in a white man's career. You have no clue. You could not handle being a black man, not for one day. Imagine being a black female, a double minority. You have absolutely no idea what has been said to me during my medical career, what my husband has to go through in his business, the fact that prejudice STILL exists despite your lies to yourself that it no longer does.

I'm not even going to address the scores, the abilities of minorities, etc. Just keep your comments to yourself. And please, no responses about how what I said has nothing to do with AA, or that you know prejudice exists, etc. Save it.
 

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by the way, this is the last you will hear from me, so don't arrogantly mistake my silence for something it is not. It does not mean that you are right or that you "shut me up."
 

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FutureStork said:
You have absolutely no idea how it feels walking in the shoes of an underrepresented minority in the United States, especially in a white man's career. You have no clue
Uhhhhhhh,

I think he does.
 

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there is no doubt in my mind that prejudice exists still. Nobody is arguing that point. We are having a discussion about how it's being addressed.
Women in medicine were underrepresented 30yrs ago, this is no longer the case. To my knowledge, the bar wasn't lowered when they entered "the man's world" of medicine. I think (not sure though) that women represent >50% admission in some medical schools.
Minorities in medicine are still underrepresented in medicine, how that is being addressed is the problem that many people are having.
If you can't see the other side of this issue, then you are as blind as you're accusing others of being.
 

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FutureStork said:
I think the original poster is an idiot. Keep this crap to yourself. You have absolutely no idea how it feels walking in the shoes of an underrepresented minority in the United States, especially in a white man's career. You have no clue. You have absolutely no idea.....
Interesting response.

The OP is not an idiot, but rather one of the most educated MDs (anesth / CCM) on this board. Perhaps you should research people before shooting off at the oral cavity.

And he IS a minority. He just hacks it better than you.
 

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seattledoc said:
I guess every time I start to think about this issue in the medical field, I ask myself if I want to be cared for, when I'm really sick/fixin to die, by the person that got in with lower scores on their tests but were a URM, or by the person that simply got high scores (URM or not). I think most people would opt for the latter if given the choice.

Getting high scores on tests means nothing. The best test-takers can be the worst clinicians. So, you know how to figure out what the test writer is going for, but in the end, the actual working world (a.k.a residency) determines if you are the best or not. From getting into medical school to graduating, it consists of 2 things: kissing people's a$$ to get you somewhere and let's see how much you can memorize (starting with MCAT to USMLE 1 and beyond).
 

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FutureStork said:
I only read the initial message and read some of the responses. Since we are in the business of posting what is on our minds "and stirring up stuff" I think the original poster is an idiot. Keep this crap to yourself. You are clearly one of many of the arrogant people that I have met in my career in medicine. You have absolutely no idea how it feels walking in the shoes of an underrepresented minority in the United States, especially in a white man's career. You have no clue. You could not handle being a black man, not for one day. Imagine being a black female, a double minority. You have absolutely no idea what has been said to me during my medical career, what my husband has to go through in his business, the fact that prejudice STILL exists despite your lies to yourself that it no longer does.

I'm not even going to address the scores, the abilities of minorities, etc. Just keep your comments to yourself. And please, no responses about how what I said has nothing to do with AA, or that you know prejudice exists, etc. Save it.
I know what it is like to be discriminated against because of race. I had to go to Ireland for medical school despite having a higher GPA and MCAT than 90% of "URMs" in my state schools. That cost me an extra $120000 and an extra year to finish medical school only to be discriminated against again as an FMG-residency applicant who was better than a large portion of US grads in the first place.
I could handle being a black man. I could have gone out instead of studying, I could have studied for the MCAT for 2 days instead of 2 months, and I still would have easily met the ridiculously low black admissions requirements. Maybe if you actually could gain admissions competitively, people wouldn't think less of you and make negative comments. What did they say to you, "You're lucky you're black cause with your GPA & scores you'd be a lab tech if you were white."? Mean yes, but true.
 

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I could handle being a black man.

Maybe if you actually could gain admissions competitively, people wouldn't think less of you and make negative comments. What did they say to you, "You're lucky you're black cause with your GPA & scores you'd be a lab tech if you were white."? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Mean yes, but true.[/QUOTE]

1- 36 MCAT
2- 258 Step I
3- the above indicates that prejudice does exist- by YOU in this case. You assume that my standards are lower than yours. Thanks for proving my point.
4- You COULD NOT handle being a black man. At least you can come back to the U.S. Can't take off your skin.
 

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FutureStork said:
I think the original poster is an idiot.

I agree with the above statement 103 percent.


Moderators please move this discussion to the appropriate forum.
 

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entourage said:
I agree with the above statement 103 percent.


Moderators please move this discussion to the appropriate forum.
Your opinion wouldn't happen to be related to a certain septic patient with a-fib that Mil. told you would be stupid to wait for a consult on...would it?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it is. So you're telling us that everyone that disagrees with your clinical judgement is an idiot--103%. Sweet, fancy moses. I hope I'm wrong on this.
 

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FutureStork said:
1- 36 MCAT
2- 258 Step I
3- the above indicates that prejudice does exist- by YOU in this case. You assume that my standards are lower than yours. Thanks for proving my point.
4- You COULD NOT handle being a black man. At least you can come back to the U.S. Can't take off your skin.
Congrats on your great scores, but I think you're proving his point. He assumes the standards are lower for URMs because they are. Since you are a URM I would think you of all people would be against the lower standards because it lumps you into the group that got a free pass on low scores and GPA.
 

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hudsontc said:
Your opinion wouldn't happen to be related to a certain septic patient with a-fib that Mil. told you would be stupid to wait for a consult on...would it?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it is. So you're telling us that everyone that disagrees with your clinical judgement is an idiot--103%. Sweet, fancy moses. I hope I'm wrong on this.

nope it has nothing to do with that.. or the fact he can treat afib better than a cardiologist. I just happen to agree with that post 103 percent..
 

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FutureStork said:
I could handle being a black man.

Maybe if you actually could gain admissions competitively, people wouldn't think less of you and make negative comments. What did they say to you, "You're lucky you're black cause with your GPA & scores you'd be a lab tech if you were white."? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Mean yes, but true.
1- 36 MCAT
2- 258 Step I
3- the above indicates that prejudice does exist- by YOU in this case. You assume that my standards are lower than yours. Thanks for proving my point.
4- You COULD NOT handle being a black man. At least you can come back to the U.S. Can't take off your skin.[/QUOTE]

First, let me say those are great scores, and that you are obviously NOT underqualified. However, by setting lower standards we merely propagate the discrimination that you have been exposed to your whole life. I dont think I need to explain that statement to most of you, but I will give you my take on it.
Racial discrimination by definition is "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life"

That is from the United Nations definition on wikipedia, they definitely said it better than I could have. The problem with AA especially in a field like medicine is that it allows people to look at you and say "oh look, a (minority) physician, he/she must have had lower scores than me." The more enlightened individual realizes that you must have had some serious intestinal fortitude to overcome the obstacles that you faced, but it provides the racist individual with the ammo to prejudge. I know you dont want to have to tattoo your scores on your forehead so that everyone realizes you were not underqualified at all.

I hope no one takes offense at this.
 

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I could definitely handle being a "black man"

I'm black from the waist down and haven't had one negative or racist complaint yet! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

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nrut88 said:
I could definitely handle being a "black man"

I'm black from the waist down and haven't had one negative or racist complaint yet! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
You are so crazy. Is this Fredrick? That is something my friend Fredrick says.
 
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militarymd

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FutureStork said:
1- 36 MCAT
2- 258 Step I
3- the above indicates that prejudice does exist- by YOU in this case. You assume that my standards are lower than yours. Thanks for proving my point.
4- You COULD NOT handle being a black man. At least you can come back to the U.S. Can't take off your skin.
You have impressive stats. AA or no AA....it doesn't matter, you will get into (and you did) medical school....and likely do VERY well in medical school.

Sooooo.....as a URM who DERSERVES to be anything you want to be......why would you want to be associated with a group of people (AA beneficiaries) who perform much lower than you and use their skin color to get something they otherwise would not get.....sort of like nepotism.

Oh...and BTW......AA advocates say the AA URMs will more likely go into primary care and serve URM communities in providing basic, often neglected healthcare......

It is not lost on me....that you are posting on the ANESTHESIA forum....a specialty where the folks make BIG money and work short hours......I believe that's why you're interested per your first posts here????

The IRONY is sooooo thick.
 

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militarymd said:
You have impressive stats. AA or no AA....it doesn't matter, you will get into (and you did) medical school....and likely do VERY well in medical school.

Sooooo.....as a URM who DERSERVES to be anything you want to be......why would you want to be associated with a group of people (AA beneficiaries) who perform much lower than you and use their skin color to get something they otherwise would not get.....sort of like nepotism.

Oh...and BTW......AA advocates say the AA URMs will more likely go into primary care and serve URM communities in providing basic, often neglected healthcare......

It is not lost on me....that you are posting on the ANESTHESIA forum....a specialty where the folks make BIG money and work short hours......I believe that's why you're interested per your first posts here????

The IRONY is sooooo thick.
DUDE,

Let it go..

I am a staunch republican and a wasp and I see the the reasoning behind AA
arent you a chinaman? go back to china if you dont like AA, or better yet teach your chinese counterparts to speak english

close this freakin thread before it gets ugly..
 
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militarymd

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entourage said:
DUDE,

Let it go..

I am a staunch republican and a wasp and I see the the reasoning behind AA
arent you a chinaman? go back to china if you dont like AA, or better yet teach your chinese counterparts to speak english

close this freakin thread before it gets ugly..
what was your previous username?
 

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hey military

i was at the gym today .. lot of chinese people go there .. why is it that they give off this stench .?. It is i mean it is the most foul thing... they all smell like that. its like rotten fried rice or something.. I was on the treadmill i had to get off that thing. it was awful.. and its not the first time.. its in the skin... damn it stinks..
 

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entourage said:
hey military

i was at the gym today .. lot of chinese people go there .. why is it that they give off this stench .?. It is i mean it is the most foul thing... they all smell like that. its like rotten fried rice or something.. I was on the treadmill i had to get off that thing. it was awful.. and its not the first time.. its in the skin... damn it stinks..
That's messed up. I'm white and think that's messed up. We really dont need any of that, entourage.
 

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nrut88 said:
That's messed up. I'm white and think that's messed up. We really dont need any of that, entourage.

dude im white too.. and i am totally offended by this stench.. iw as wondering if military could tell me what it is.. is it the diet? its terrible... I could not finish my 40 minute run on the tread mill.. I had to put an end to it.. otherwise I would have passed out.


just giving him a taste of his own medicine..
 

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entourage said:
dude im white too.. and i am totally offended by this stench.. iw as wondering if military could tell me what it is.. is it the diet? its terrible... I could not finish my 40 minute run on the tread mill.. I had to put an end to it.. otherwise I would have passed out.


just giving him a taste of his own medicine..

Wow. Useful thread.

The gung ho pro "scores mean all" blah blah blah folks get to say how great they are.

followed by the:

"If you grow up in the ghetto, you are entitled to everything possible in the world despite not being capable to follow through with it."

which then brings about the:

"You have a small penis"
"You stink"
"You're a dork"

useful crap.

What is this thread trying to prove?

The whack job fanatics on either end aren't going to be convinced of anything.

Of course as a moderate I believe that maybe, all things being equal, the guy/gal who had to study and achieve an MCAT of 34 while coming from a single parent family and put themselves through Harvard just might be more appropriate for the medical school slot than the ivy league, silver spooner who had his way paid through the best prep schools, had his MCAT course paid for and never really worked a day in his/her life prior to score an MCAT of 34. But really, whats the use of actually looking at the whole person in making a decision?

I guess, this thread is meant to provide some mild amusement with the penis/stink/you suck/no you suck posts to read and allow those who like to feel they are entitled but are victimized by whatever (on both sides) to vent their feelings. rolleyes:
 
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militarymd

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I wonder why reason/fact based discussions are not possible when it comes to topics like this.


Read each of my posts....no name calling, no racial slurring....just simple observations and questions about a practice which doesn't make sense to me.


I wonder why people who advocate this policy cannot respond in kind with reason/facts, but feel the need to call names and make fun of people....and overall resort to emotional type grandstanding.
 

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entourage said:
hey military

i was at the gym today .. lot of chinese people go there .. why is it that they give off this stench .?. It is i mean it is the most foul thing... they all smell like that. its like rotten fried rice or something.. I was on the treadmill i had to get off that thing. it was awful.. and its not the first time.. its in the skin... damn it stinks..
This thread was fairly civil (heated, but civil) until you chimed in and demanded its closure because you personally didn't like the topic. The above statement is nothing more than an attempt to get the thread closed by the mods so you can "get your way" and have the thread closed.

So juvenile. You probably don't even have the social skills to be embarrassed by this.

If the mods are reading why not have this handle placed on teh 24 hour probation thing that Jet got nailed by rather than have it just closed. Some of this has been worthwhile to think about.
 

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entourage said:
DUDE,

Let it go..

I am a staunch republican and a wasp and I see the the reasoning behind AA
arent you a chinaman? go back to china if you dont like AA, or better yet teach your chinese counterparts to speak english

close this freakin thread before it gets ugly..
Sorry, I don't see the reasoning behind AA.

Asking to close this thread while concominantly calling my buddy a chinaman is fightin' words in my book.

Wanna make it personal with Mil?

You just made it personal with me.
 

entourage

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I dont have a problem with anybody.

military started the thread by saying he was having an argument with someone else in another forum about this issue.. And he felt he wanted to bring it in here.. Keep it over there.. Thats where it belongs.. why bring it in the anesthesia forum..and certainly a discussion with an admissions dean would be more enlightening then in here where none of us really deal with the intricacies of this issue on a daily basis.. But of course military know best.. he even knows who should be admitted to medical school and who shouldnt.. i apologize if he was offended by being called a chinaman. This thread should be closed and kept where it originated.. if military wants to be contentious let him go over there..
 
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militarymd

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entourage said:
I dont have a problem with anybody.

military started the thread by saying he was having an argument with someone else in another forum about this issue.. And he felt he wanted to bring it in here.. Keep it over there.. Thats where it belongs.. why bring it in the anesthesia forum..and certainly a discussion with an admissions dean would be more enlightening then in here where none of us really deal with the intricacies of this issue on a daily basis.. But of course military know best.. he even knows who should be admitted to medical school and who shouldnt.. i apologize if he was offended by being called a chinaman. This thread should be closed and kept where it originated.. if military wants to be contentious let him go over there..
militarymd said:
So I'm in one of the other forums...having this raging debate over Affirmative Action with someone on the admission committee of some medical school...

Anyways, in the end, I brought up a point which she won't answer/address...her silence is deafening....IMHO....

So, I figure I'll stir some stuff up here in our forum with all the folks that I know (at least in cyberspace)

So AA or no AA?
I am asking for opinions from people who I KNOW, and whose opinions I respect (even if I don't agree).....entourage, you are no one to me....you started posting here this month....and your posts show that you are relatively inexperienced in regards to anesthesia.....and your inability to keep a civil debate shows inexperience in life.