Story About The Carribean

[exPCM]

Excerpts:
And though Ross is 1,500 miles from the mainland, U.S. residents who attend the school, and about two dozen other offshore medical schools, qualify for federal student loans.

That's meant more than $150 million a year in government-guaranteed aid for Ross, which has about 3,500 students, double the biggest U.S. medical school.

...............................

But federal regulators are taking a closer look at evidence suggesting taxpayers and students may be getting shortchanged by foreign medical schools.

• At Ross, fewer than one-third of the students finish in four years, compared to nearly 100 percent at U.S. medical schools.

• Since Ross, like other Caribbean medical schools, doesn't have a teaching hospital, it pays hospitals stateside for students' clinical training, with wide variations in quality.

• Students of foreign medical schools like Ross graduate with higher average debt, $235,000 compared to the average $158,000 owed by graduates of U.S. medical schools, according to an August report to Congress by regulators.

• About 20 percent of Ross graduates fail to land a residency, the key to a license to practice in the United States. If they cannot pay their student debts, taxpayers are left holding the bag.

Steven Moxley, a former Navy corpsman, graduated from Ross in 2005 but can't get a residency due to low test scores. Now 54, with $250,000 in unpaid loans, Moxley is working construction jobs in the Washington, D.C., area and renting a room from his son.

"I'm living hand-to-mouth," he said. "I've got debt out the ying-yang."

Started in a motel

Robert Ross, a commodities trader in New York, opened his medical school in 1978 in a motel in Dominica's capital at the suggestion of an employee whose son couldn't get into medical training in the States. By 2000, Ross had sold majority interest in both the medical school and an affiliated veterinary school in St. Kitts to a group of New York investors. Three years later, both schools were acquired by DeVry for $310 million.

Ross is the only offshore medical school owned by a publicly traded corporation, which must disclose more financial data than privately owned schools.

Last year, DeVry, better known for its tech training schools, reported $165.7 million in net income after taxes. But the company also reported an additional $140 million in tax-free income from the Ross operations.

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But Dr. Peter Fabri, former dean of graduate medical education at USF College of Medicine, said his school has had a different experience.

"The quality of clinical education Ross students get is very, very unpredictable," said Fabri, a professor of surgery who retired as dean in September. "We've had some Ross students whom I'm told are superb, but we've also had a number from Ross who ended up being dismissed because they just didn't have it. And it's rare that any residents are dismissed."

More schools coming

Fabri, who has served on national commissions on graduate medical education, said students from foreign medical schools are going to be at a growing disadvantage.

Five new U.S. medical schools, including University of Central Florida and Florida International University, have begun enrolling students in the past few years and four more schools are in the permitting process. Those new graduates will make it tougher to get residency slots, which have not increased.

"I have not encouraged our program directors to take students from Caribbean schools," Fabri said. "And now that the competition is greater, I'm telling them to be very, very thoughtful."

In a report to Congress in August, the group that accredits offshore medical colleges recommended that the schools raise their standards and improve reporting on everything from test scores to graduation rates to total cost.


Full story here: http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

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[dragonfly99]

Thanks for posting.
That is a very interesting article.
It kind of singles out Ross and make them look a little bad...people think they are saving time and maybe some money going down there, but it looks like it definitely costs more money. And I'm surprised that only 30% graduate in 4 years...it seems like it negates most of the "time saved" element in some peoples' decisions to go down there. However, on the flip side 80% of their grads do get a residency, so for those who are hopeful but never going to get into a US school, this represents an option for them to realize their dreams of becoming a physician. I have to say I'm shocked they take people with a 17 MCAT though. I'd have serious doubts about someone with a 17 MCAT score having the academic chops to get through med school and the USMLE's. Mid to high 20's and motivated, yes, but a 17? That's actually kind of scary. Also, it looks like multiple people in that article who ended up not making it were over 50...it's not really that hard to believe because med school and residency is kind of a young person's game...I mean honestly the hours are brutal and I think it would be really hard to work the 30 hours in a row intern nights at age 52 or so...I can't really imagine it.

 

[relaxedMD]

....I have to say I'm shocked they take people with a 17 MCAT though. I'd have serious doubts about someone with a 17 MCAT score having the academic chops to get through med school and the USMLE's. Mid to high 20's and motivated, yes, but a 17? That's actually kind of scary. Also, it looks like multiple people in that article who ended up not making it were over 50...it's not really that hard to believe because med school and residency is kind of a young person's game...I mean honestly the hours are brutal and I think it would be really hard to work the 30 hours in a row intern nights at age 52 or so...I can't really imagine it.

I agree with dragonfly99, an MCAT score of 24 or above seems like a reasonable cut off point for potential success at med school; NOT guaranteed success though.

In the instance where someone scored a 17 on MCAT and applied and subsequently the admission committee looked at it and thought it was satisfactory for admission. THEN shame on that admission committee. If the committee asked him to enter a few pre-med level courses before beginning the med school courses I could understand their rationale. We shall never know I suppose.

One of the BIG 3 graduated a near 60 year old gentleman recently. He was a JD that had practiced for 25 years. His only interest was to graduate from medical school so that he may practice malpractice law. No residency required. No long hours as an intern. LUCKY.

rlxdmd

 

[futIDdoc]

One of the BIG 3 graduated a near 60 year old gentleman recently. He was a JD that had practiced for 25 years. His only interest was to graduate from medical school so that he may practice malpractice law. No residency required. No long hours as an intern. LUCKY.

rlxdmd

Wow, it would be a shame if introduced himself as an MD with a Carib degree and no intention on doing a residency.

 

[RussianJoo]

Wow, it would be a shame if introduced himself as an MD with a Carib degree and no intention on doing a residency.

why would it be a shame? i am sure he introduce himself as Dr. Smith Esquire....i.e. he's both an md and a lawyer. i don't see any shame in that, plenty of people do it every year.

 

[medicinesux]

Going to Ross is a gamble. Ross does enable some to become licensed physicians, however you are truly playing Russian roulette if you are considering going to Ross and have a GPA under 3.0 and MCAT scores in the low 20's and under. Forget about getting a residency, how are you going to ever pass your courses and the USMLE's? One must keep in mind that the stakes are only going to be ratcheted higher in the future as allopathic and D.O schools ramp up their own enrollments while residency slots are limited. As more 0's and 00's are added to the roulette wheel in the near future, there are going to be WAY MORE stories like those depicted in the Tampa Bay article. Some will make it through but more and more will be left financially ruined for life. This is a crisis in the making.

 

[dragonfly99]

My advice to someone with that low of an MCAT score and grades would be to stay in the states a year or so taking some hard, upper level undergrad science courses and make sure you can ace these, and then get some medical volunteering hours to make darned sure you want to be a physician. Also, raise your MCAT score well into the 20's. If you can't make a decent MCAT score, and aren't willing to put in volunteer hours in a hospital and ace some undergrad courses, I'm worried that you won't have the wherewithal to pass med school and the USMLE tests that you'll HAVE To pass to get any residency...regardless of the competition from US trained MD or DO grads and how they factor in to future residency competitiveness. Just because some med school will admit you and take your money does NOT mean you should go to med school right now.

 

[JonathanMD]

The following appeared as a comment directed at the same story, published on thedominican.net

To the Editor:

In response to your Dec. 27 posting, “US Congress told Ross University may be shortchanging taxpayers and students” PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE IS NOT NOW, NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN any “evidence presented to Congress suggesting Ross Medical School on Dominica may be shortchanging U.S. taxpayers and students” as your posting suggests. The newspaper article, from which you draw these conclusions, presented a one-sided, negative point of view of Ross University that did not take into account the thousands of successful doctors who have graduated from our University over the past 31 years.

Ross University has a proven record of providing outstanding education to all of our students. Our results speak for themselves:

• A first-time, United States Medical Licensing Exam Step 1 exam pass rate of 93.3 percent, comparable with the 94 percent at U.S.-based medical schools.
• Nearly two-thirds of our students enter primary care, filling an enormous unmet need in the U.S.
• Ross University places more graduates into U.S. residencies than any other medical school in the world.

There were also many mischaracterizations in the article, including:

• Students who attend international schools are not doing so because they are unqualified to enter U.S-based medical schools; there are 42,000 applicants for 19,000 seats in U.S. medical schools. The people who attend Ross are talented students who just miss entrance into U.S. schools, not because of their ability, but rather by the shortage of seats at U.S. medical schools.
• Only 80 percent of Ross students gain residencies; this does not take into account that international students have an advantage over their U.S. peers in the ability to “pre-Match” for their residency. Ross students can, and often do, sign a contract for a residency prior to the residency Match, something unavailable to students at U.S. medical schools. When Ross combines pre-Match students with our residency Match students, OUR RESIDENCY PLACEMENT RATES ARE ON PAR WITH U.S MEDICAL SCHOOLS.
• Ross students’ debt; it is comparing apples to oranges to compare total debt for students who attend U.S. public colleges with students who attend private or market-funded schools like Ross University. While our students will generally have more debt than students who have attended an in-state, U.S. public school, Ross students do not graduate with more debt than their peers at private or public out-of-state medical schools.
• Student loan repayment; the United States Department of Education’s most recent report shows that 0.2% -- just 1 out of every 400 Ross graduates -- default on their federally-subsidized student loans.

We are proud of our students, our residents, and of our graduates. The more than 7,000 Ross alumni across the United States are serving their communities and healing tens-of -thousands of patients on a yearly basis. We should celebrate the success of these physicians who are providing the medical care our towns, cities, states, and country so desperately need.


Sincerely,

Thomas Shepherd, DHA
President
Ross University
630 US Highway 1
North Brunswick, NJ 08902
Phone: 732-509-4600

Feel free to disagree.

In related news, today is my 3rd day on Dominica. The first day of class is on January 11th.

 

[howelljolly]

Wow, it would be a shame if introduced himself as an MD with a Carib degree and no intention on doing a residency.

Plenty of people get an MD with no intention of doing a residency. He just did it in the Caribbean.

Ive met someone who was a PharmD and was doing an MD simply to advance their pharmacology career. People in biotech and biomedical engeneering do it as well.

People also go for a JD without the intention to practice law, or a PhD without the intention of being a scientist.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

One of the BIG 3 graduated a near 60 year old gentleman recently. He was a JD that had practiced for 25 years. His only interest was to graduate from medical school so that he may practice malpractice law. No residency required. No long hours as an intern. LUCKY.

Seems like a waste. You don't need an MD to be a successful malpractice lawyer - all the guy did was waste 4 years of earning potential as a practicing lawyer and pay 6 figures worth of tuition.

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't see how a PharmD would advance his career either by getting the MD and then not doing residency. I don't see how it would help, and certainly takes a huge amount of time and money.

 

[slight365]

Going to Ross is a gamble. Ross does enable some to become licensed physicians, however you are truly playing Russian roulette if you are considering going to Ross and have a GPA under 3.0 and MCAT scores in the low 20's and under. Forget about getting a residency, how are you going to ever pass your courses and the USMLE's? One must keep in mind that the stakes are only going to be ratcheted higher in the future as allopathic and D.O schools ramp up their own enrollments while residency slots are limited. As more 0's and 00's are added to the roulette wheel in the near future, there are going to be WAY MORE stories like those depicted in the Tampa Bay article. Some will make it through but more and more will be left financially ruined for life. This is a crisis in the making.

I agree with this. I know more than a half dozen who went to Ross, only ONE made it, and I still doubt her qualifications, due to past history.

Another former friend, I lost contact with him sometime after he started at Ross. My guess is that he failed out, as I checked, can't find him, and still can't find a license listing for him, some 5 years after he was to finish. Another mutual friend who started with him is nowhere to be found, either.

 

[howelljolly]

I don't see how a PharmD would advance his career either by getting the MD and then not doing residency. I don't see how it would help, and certainly takes a huge amount of time and money.

Clinical trials? I dont know either. They went to NYMC, so it was a pretty good school too. In the Carribean I went to school with a couple of guys with PhDs, and neither of them went for residency.

 

[futIDdoc]

+1 for Wagy. And people obtaining MDs to further their non-clinical careers is either the ultimate expression of vanity or evidence of insanity. Could you imagine interviewing at a US school and saying that you were getting an MD to further your law career? You'd be laughed out of the building. I realize that not all US students go into a residency, but all students at least start out with the intention of practicing medicine, and that is an important difference.

 

[elwademd]

+1 for Wagy. And people obtaining MDs to further their non-clinical careers is either the ultimate expression of vanity or evidence of insanity. Could you imagine interviewing at a US school and saying that you were getting an MD to further your law career? You'd be laughed out of the building. I realize that not all US students go into a residency, but all students at least start out with the intention of practicing medicine, and that is an important difference.

start asking your classmates who wants to go on and practice medicine, you might be surprised.

i can think of two people i graduated with (emory '05) that did not want to go on and practice medicine, and knew this well before fourth year.

yes, that's not a great n, but you really might be surprised by what you find out.

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with many of wagy's points.
Ross needs to tell the actual number of people who attend/attended Ross who default ont he student loans, not just the GRADS who default on their loans. And I don't believe that their board pass rate is 93%...that's the number of people who pass Ross's own "internal exams" to allow them to take the boards who then actually pass. My understanding is they make their students take a test in order to be ALLOWED to take the boards...so they weed out the students who are likely to fail. Even after doing that, only 93% pass...it's not so good. The USMLE is a hard test but just PASSING should really not be hard for the vast majority of med students.

Having said all this, I do know of people who have gone to Ross and gone on to do well. Many of these were children of physicians...such as a daughter of a foreign-born doc in my small Midwestern town...usually it's people who just missed the MCAT cutoffs for US schools by a little. But they were people with good GPA's and a back ground of studying science in the US in undergrad. But keep in mind that such people I've know of went into residencies like fp, physical med/rehab, IM at less competitive residencies. Also, having a physician parent is undeniablyl helpful in med school as far as getting through successfully and getting good grades...my classmates who did always seemed to have a leg up on the rest of us, particularly during 3rd year, as they understood hospital culture and what would be expected of a medical student without having to learn that by experience.

 

[howelljolly]

I agree with many of wagy's points.
Ross needs to tell the actual number of people who attend/attended Ross who default ont he student loans, not just the GRADS who default on their loans. And I don't believe that their board pass rate is 93%...that's the number of people who pass Ross's own "internal exams" to allow them to take the boards who then actually pass. My understanding is they make their students take a test in order to be ALLOWED to take the boards...so they weed out the students who are likely to fail. Even after doing that, only 93% pass...it's not so good. The USMLE is a hard test but just PASSING should really not be hard for the vast majority of med students.

.

I think the pass rate for the internal exam is much lower than this.

But true, given that the US-IMG or Carib (I forget which) first pass rate is around 50%, and that Ross represents the largest group of Carib test takers,,, I'd expect it to be less.

I'd initially expected the statistical slight-of-hand to be that 93% was the ultimate pass rate rather than first attempt... but they addressed that directly.

Maybe its accurate, I dunno.

 

[exPCM]

I have gotten an email from an SDN administrator that it is not appropriate to post volatile topics and this thread has been classified as a volatile topic so I will signoff on this thread.
Good luck to those who are undergoing the long journey to becoming a physician.

 

[RussianJoo]

I have gotten an email from an SDN administrator that it is not appropriate to post volatile topics and this thread has been classified as a volatile topic so I will signoff on this thread.
Good luck to those who are undergoing the long journey to becoming a physician.

volatile? like the middle east? or the somalian government?


sounds exciting.

 

[slight365]

I'm amazed, as I think this thread has been actually constructive.

It's based in analysis and clarification, which, I believe even Caribbean students would be appreciative of.

 

[Ariee]

volatile? like the middle east? or the somalian government?


sounds exciting.

hahaa

 

[Taurus]

I have gotten an email from an SDN administrator that it is not appropriate to post volatile topics and this thread has been classified as a volatile topic so I will signoff on this thread.
Good luck to those who are undergoing the long journey to becoming a physician.

I don't see how posting excepts from a newspaper article and the link to it is volatile. Unless the mod is trying to censor information. This is critical information that people need to know before making such a risky decision as attending an offshore school.

For example, most people, including Ross folks themselves, were unaware of these facts:

- Four-year graduation rate: 30.6 percent
- Six-year graduation rate: 66 percent
- Percent of graduates who secure residency training: 80 percent (2006-07)
- Students of foreign medical schools like Ross graduate with higher average debt, $235,000 compared to the average $158,000 owed by graduates of U.S. medical schools

If Ross is one of the "Big 4" Carib programs, what does this say about other Carib programs, especially the ones that are not in the top 4? People need to know these facts and weigh them very carefully before making a decision.

 

[Moose A Moose]

One of the BIG 3 graduated a near 60 year old gentleman recently. He was a JD that had practiced for 25 years. His only interest was to graduate from medical school so that he may practice malpractice law.

Uh, what? Since when do you need an MD/JD to practice malpractice law. I was under the thought that once you finish law school, if its been in your interest, you can pursue any firm-type that you'd want.

 

[howelljolly]

Uh, what? Since when do you need an MD/JD to practice malpractice law. I was under the thought that once you finish law school, if its been in your interest, you can pursue any firm-type that you'd want.

Uh what? You can't persue anything you want. You can work on small claims cases, traffic violations, and that sort of thing if you like. You can send your resume out until you're blue in the face. Nobody is going to hire you unless you can prove yourself. Its like that in medicine too, you know. You can't graduate med school and just walk in to a dermatology residency.

You dont NEED an MD/JD to do malpractice law. Law is cutthroat and competitive. You can't "pursue any firm-type that you want". If you want to specialize in a certain type of law, practice in a high-profile selective firm, or practice for huge corporations or for the government you need to be very qualified.

My lawyer friends tell me that if you go to a low/third tier law school, you might never see the inside of a courtroom, and be stuck as a counselor or practicing contract law. And thats the beginning of the rat race. Once you get out of law school, you need to build your career, and many do so by going for more school.

If you want to specialize in one of the more "interesting" fields and not litigate traffic violations all day, its in your interest to build up your resume with other advanced degrees (MD, PhD, MBA). By "interesting", I mean things like corporate law, medical malpractice, intellectual property law, etc. You can't just walk into an intellectual property law firm and say "I can haz job?"

I know of two people that have a JD/PhD - one of them is doing intellectual property in a high-profile firm. I know of a few people that have a JD plus an MD or EMT-P, who do medical malpractice or work for the government. I dont know the details of law, but perhaps a JD/MD is allowed to use their medical opinion in their decision making where otherwise they are required to use expert testimony only. Oneof the things about law is that for any "gray area", the court decides on an interpretation. The judge gets to decide the interpretation of the law, and everyone else has to apply the law as the judge interprets it. So maybe medical stuff gets to be strictly interpreted by the expert witness, unless the lawyer.... but I digress.

Of course most of the lawyers who do medmal don't have an MD. So what that guy did... going to Ross.... was a good move. He's got a leg up on the other medical malpractice lawyers. Maybe he's getting old and wants to branch out into consulting and expert-witnessing so that he can cut down his long hours in his medmal practice.

Gosh, give the guy the benefit of doubt.... maybe he knows what he's doing.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Ah, thank you. In regards to my statement, I thought I was right.

 

[howelljolly]

Ah, thank you. In regards to my statement, I thought I was right.

well were you?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Of course most of the lawyers who do medmal don't have an MD. So what that guy did... going to Ross.... was a good move. He's got a leg up on the other medical malpractice lawyers. Maybe he's getting old and wants to branch out into consulting and expert-witnessing so that he can cut down his long hours in his medmal practice.

Gosh, give the guy the benefit of doubt.... maybe he knows what he's doing.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't have enough info to know. It still sounds very odd to me. I could be convinced of the utility of an MD/JD going into med mal law straight out of school - but this is a 60 yo with 25 years of practice experience. To me that makes the MD a very expensive investment (~200,000) with only limited returns (since the guy will work for what - ten, fifteen more years tops). When you add on that you are not only paying for med school, but also taking away four years of prime earning potential...hard to see that paying off financially.

 

[howelljolly]

Maybe, maybe not. We don't have enough info to know. It still sounds very odd to me. I could be convinced of the utility of an MD/JD going into med mal law straight out of school - but this is a 60 yo with 25 years of practice experience. To me that makes the MD a very expensive investment (~200,000) with only limited returns (since the guy will work for what - ten, fifteen more years tops). When you add on that you are not only paying for med school, but also taking away four years of prime earning potential...hard to see that paying off financially.

For this particular guy, I dont see it paying off financially. Maybe its a personal edification thing. Maybe after 35 years of making lawyer money, and being 60 years old, financial incentive is nothing to him. He gave up his earnings for about 4 years, blew 200 grand of it, and lived in a third world country for 2 years... I'm willing to bet the farm that earning more money (or breaking even, for that matter) has nothing to do with his motivation.

 

[Bart Clarridge]

The getting an MD without doing a residency is a waste of a spot. If a lawyer is not going to do a residency, his "medical" opinion/reasoning should be worthless in court. And if he brings his MD up the opposing lawyer should be able to call him out.

BTW, exPMC is a good muckraker

 

[howelljolly]

The getting an MD without doing a residency is a waste of a spot. If a lawyer is not going to do a residency, his "medical" opinion/reasoning should be worthless in court. And if he brings his MD up the opposing lawyer should be able to call him out.

BTW, exPMC is a good muckraker

If its in the Caribbean, its not that much of a waste.... as it might be in the US.

No, his medical opinion shouldn't be "worthless" in court. You need a residency to know enough to PRACTICE medicine... Med school is adequate to the theory behind it. Lawyers have to take all sorts of highly technical crash-courses all the time in order to intelligently litigate cases with a technical twist. I know one that had to tag along with a physicist for a week because he was working on a manufacture-recall type case.

So, no the other lawyer won't call him out on his medical knowledge, because the other lawyer probably took a month long crash-course, rather than 4 years of med school.

What planet are you people on? In NYC you can throw a rubber chicken, and it will probably hit someone with a JD/MD or PharmD/MD or MD/PhD or something. And nobody here bats an eye when they hear that someone is using an MD to further their career in law, pharmacology, or basic science.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Uh what? You can't persue anything you want. You can work on small claims cases, traffic violations, and that sort of thing if you like. You can send your resume out until you're blue in the face. Nobody is going to hire you unless you can prove yourself. Its like that in medicine too, you know. You can't graduate med school and just walk in to a dermatology residency.

You dont NEED an MD/JD to do malpractice law. Law is cutthroat and competitive. You can't "pursue any firm-type that you want". If you want to specialize in a certain type of law, practice in a high-profile selective firm, or practice for huge corporations or for the government you need to be very qualified.

My lawyer friends tell me that if you go to a low/third tier law school, you might never see the inside of a courtroom, and be stuck as a counselor or practicing contract law. And thats the beginning of the rat race. Once you get out of law school, you need to build your career, and many do so by going for more school.

If you want to specialize in one of the more "interesting" fields and not litigate traffic violations all day, its in your interest to build up your resume with other advanced degrees (MD, PhD, MBA). By "interesting", I mean things like corporate law, medical malpractice, intellectual property law, etc. You can't just walk into an intellectual property law firm and say "I can haz job?"

I know of two people that have a JD/PhD - one of them is doing intellectual property in a high-profile firm. I know of a few people that have a JD plus an MD or EMT-P, who do medical malpractice or work for the government. I dont know the details of law, but perhaps a JD/MD is allowed to use their medical opinion in their decision making where otherwise they are required to use expert testimony only. Oneof the things about law is that for any "gray area", the court decides on an interpretation. The judge gets to decide the interpretation of the law, and everyone else has to apply the law as the judge interprets it. So maybe medical stuff gets to be strictly interpreted by the expert witness, unless the lawyer.... but I digress.

Of course most of the lawyers who do medmal don't have an MD. So what that guy did... going to Ross.... was a good move. He's got a leg up on the other medical malpractice lawyers. Maybe he's getting old and wants to branch out into consulting and expert-witnessing so that he can cut down his long hours in his medmal practice.

Gosh, give the guy the benefit of doubt.... maybe he knows what he's doing.

Some minor corrections. Low tier law grads might be more likely to see the inside of a courtroom than higher tier grads because things like criminal law and family law are open to everyone. Med mal is pretty open, too. Graduating from a top tier law firm makes it easier to get a job at a big firm, and lots of those guys are doing things like contract law. Litigating versus not litigating and going to court versus not going to court has very little to do with pay or prestige.

As for a JD/MD, if you're working as a JD, no, I don't think you could use your extra medical knowledge in court. My understanding is that the big market is for expert witnesses, so then actually doing a residency would be useful. It might make you stand out a little more in the legal job market and make you look smarter/harder working/whatever, but I really doubt the benefit is worth 4 years of medical school. Honestly, most of the MD/JD folks I know are career changers.

 

[Bart Clarridge]

If its in the Caribbean, its not that much of a waste.... as it might be in the US.
...

I guess my point is that picking up an MD at a US school and not doing a residency is a waste and picking up an MD from an off-shore school is not impressive (unless you do a residency and prove you are a "real" doctor). And I'm not picking on the off-shore folks, but the admission standards aren't the same.

If people getting the MD/JD want a career like Cyril Wecht, that's different.

 

[dragonfly99]

I don't see why this thread is too controversial to post. Yes, the newspaper article makes Ross look kind of bad, but I think the statistics don't really lie. It should just make people more cautious, not necessarily decide not to go to the Caribbean, but just beware of what they are getting into.

 

[Skip Intro]

This is not a controversial post. It is a newspiece that paints one picture. And, therein is a response by a Ross official that paints another picture.

That's all.

What this is really about, folks, is money. That's it. Money.

A lot of federal tax dollars, in terms of subsidized FFEL loans, are going to this school. This is to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars over the past few years. Yes, Ross is a cash cow.

It's about delivering. When you pay a lot of money to someone, you expect results. This is federal oversight. And, that's good thing.

The gist of the article, if you read again, is really about high-stakes broken promises and accountability. Truth be told, Ross actually does charge a LOT of money compared to its overhead for what it gives. There is a HUGE profit margin going on there. Just look at the numbers posted in the article.

Now, couple that with the fact that there's no real accountability going on in terms of what's actually reported back to the people supplying those loans; that the U.S. government is essentially writing a blank check in terms of the FFEL program. You can begin to see how certain people in Washington might believe that their citizens are being hoodwinked. Citizens in the terms of students. Citizens in terms of people giving up their tax dollars to fund, throught the FFEL, a "have now, pay me later" promise that, in many cases, is defaulted upon.

That doesn't take away anything that Dr. Shepard has said in his response. I'm sure that's all factually correct. There are many doctors, myself included, who made and are paying back their loans.

But, the fact is that Ross (and DeVry, Inc.) likes the status quo just the way it is now. They are making a ton of money. And, why shouldn't they? They make no bones about giving people the opportunity to pursue their dream. It's up to them after that. What this really about is telegraphing the fact that they want to cut the FFEL program to these schools. They are putting Ross between the proverbial rock and hard place.

This brings me full circle to what I've always said about Ross ever since I started participating on this forum: know what you're getting yourself into before you go.

Don't be one of those students who fails out. Be honest with yourself. If you aren't 100% certain you can make it, or are shaky educationally, chances are you're going to blow it big time down there too. And, you're going to be an a lot of debt - debt you can't possibly fathom right now. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

Take this article as a cautionary tale. That's how it's meant for someone at your level. Don't worry about the details, if you've already committed to the program. Focus on yourself. You want to end up like me, a winner. Not like the multitude of broken losers who are flipping burgers and wondering how they let their dream get away. Studying medicine is a marathon, not a sprint. If you're not prepared to go the distance, don't go. Trust me. You'll lose.

-Skip Intro
Ross Univ 2005 Graduate with Honors

 

[howelljolly]

This brings me full circle to what I've always said about Ross ever since I started participating on this forum: know what you're getting yourself into before you go.

Don't be one of those students who fails out. Be honest with yourself. If you aren't 100% certain you can make it, or are shaky educationally, chances are you're going to blow it big time down there too. And, you're going to be an a lot of debt - debt you can't possibly fathom right now. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

Take this article as a cautionary tale. That's how it's meant for someone at your level. Don't worry about the details, if you've already committed to the program. Focus on yourself. You want to end up like me, a winner. Not like the multitude of broken losers who are flipping burgers and wondering how they let their dream get away. Studying medicine is a marathon, not a sprint. If you're not prepared to go the distance, don't go. Trust me. You'll lose.

-Skip Intro
Ross Univ 2005 Graduate with Honors

Well said.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I don't see why this thread is too controversial to post.

It's not. The OP got a PM from the mods about something (we don't know what, but Winged Scapula said it wasn't what exPCM made it sound like) and then threw a hissy fit and posted this same thing on every thread he/she had contributed to or started.

 

[exPCM]

I don't see why this thread is too controversial to post. Yes, the newspaper article makes Ross look kind of bad, but I think the statistics don't really lie. It should just make people more cautious, not necessarily decide not to go to the Caribbean, but just beware of what they are getting into.

Agree with you dragonfly but the censors don't apparently.

It's not. The OP got a PM from the mods about something (we don't know what, but Winged Scapula said it wasn't what exPCM made it sound like) and then threw a hissy fit and posted this same thing on every thread he/she had contributed to or started.

SouthernIM,
I am glad you have got it all down.

Here is the email I received:
Dear exPCM,

You have received an infraction at Student Doctor Network Forums.

Reason: harassment/flaming
-------
We have received numerous complaints about multiple threads you have posted in multiple forums. In reviewing your recent threads, it appears that you have been posting threads in forums that are very negative about the members of those forums or volatile topics for those forums. Many of these are posted in the guise of "helpful information" for the members of those forums. Whatever your initial intent, posting volatile topics in multiple forums is not helpful and comes across as trolling to many of our members.

It is a violation of the Terms of Service of SDN to post in a forum in a manner to harass or deride the members of the forum.

[TOS]Harassment and Flaming
The Student Doctor Network members are not permitted to harass or "flame" other members. Please do not post or transmit any unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, profane, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable material of any kind, including, but not limited to, any material which encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, violate the rights of others, or otherwise violate any applicable local, state, national or international law. Please note that this also includes the posting of taunts on a forum solely for the purpose of deriding that forum's topic and/or members.[/quote]

I expect that this posting pattern will change. If you continue, you could end up with more infractions and could end up having your account banned.

I appreciate your understanding on this.

DrMom
SDN Administrator


Examples of threads that fit into this category include:
The coming residency bloodbath
exPCM
General Residency Issues

Osteopathic Schools Ranked by MCAT
exPCM
Pre-Medical Osteopathic [ DO ]

Possible threat to FP
exPCM
Clinicians [ RN / NP / PA ]

Why Ophthalmology Has Lost Some Luster
exPCM
Ophthalmology: Eye Physicians & Surgeons

List of Programs That Terminate Residents
exPCM
General Residency Issues

Story About The Carribean
exPCM
Caribbean

2007 average annual crna salary: $178,084
exPCM
Midlevel Anesthesia Providers
-------

This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

All the best,
Student Doctor Network Forums

 

[RussianJoo]

wow some mods on here need to take a chill pill. that really sucks exPCM, I don't think any of these threads are flamming or harasment. just because someones eyes were opened to the issues at hand and their dreams were crushed a little doesn't mean they were harasment. people take things too personally sometimes on here. you were just posting the info you found and bringing up topics that are vital to these forums.. a forum that's just filled with fluffy positive stuff sucks, and is doing a dis-service to it's readers. we need to know every side and view point of these topics.

shame on you mods for not seeing this.

 

[Taurus]

There is an alternative to SDN without all the censorship.

MD Underground

 

[leorl]

not sure what the hubbub is about . Actually, I know a dozen or so Ross grads - I don't claim to know whole classes as I did not go there, but actually every single Ross grad I've met anyway have been pretty good workers and fairly good clinicians. Maybe I'm just seeing a particularly motivated subset of Ross students? But from what they say, their attitudes and ambition are the norm.

 

[unimaginative]

The moderator is way off here. DrMom, did even read this thread or just take peoples complaints as evidence that something terrible happened?