Straw-Man fallacy and SDN

[buttercup12]

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I think you're implying that white people put in place a system to help minorities because ultimately it helps them?
Is that what you're saying?

Ehhhhh, not really. I actually want to give a good reply to this but I have a final to go take right now. I'll explain it later unless someone else wants to chime in?

 

[Patassa]

Ehhhhh, not really. I actually want to give a good reply to this but I have a final to go take right now. I'll explain it later unless someone else wants to chime in?

N/M

I need to bow out of this one. Thanks for the discussion though, it was interesting.

 

[listener23]

Weren't you saying something about an Asain doctor that could "barely speak English?" You literally just spelled grammar incorrectly. Language is an arbitrary invention of human imagination, but the science that your doc learned in med school transcends language barriers fyi.

Ahhhh the irony, now stay on topic.

 

[Aerus]

So really what this boils down to for you is the majority = power holders, right? Do you want a strictly proportional division of power based on demographics to make things "fair?" Why should a minority have power over a majority, or equal weight given to their opinions?



What do you mean there is no power that Blacks can hold over Whites? You are generalizing this issue to the largest possible degree, while I'm focusing on more practical, individual instances that can affect the individual tremendously. There are PLENTY of minorities that hold a position of power (Surgeons, professors, judges, law enforcement, etc etc etc) that are in a position to abuse their power and favor specific individuals over others based on their skin color.

Again, you haven't taken a Sociology class. You are using a completely different definition of power. Your "power" is something you can abuse. I'm talking about Societal power. You are completely oversimplifying the situation if you're just looking for examples of minorities in powerful positions.

Let me ask you this then: Why are the demographics so skewed in these positions of power? Surgeons, professors, judges, President, etc. And if you say "because African Americans don't want to be those" then we are done talking 😛

 

[Aerus]

If you're asking me, I have no idea. It could be as soon as the next one for all I know. Herman Cain was doing exceptionally well on the Republican ticket before some of his past caught up to him.
But if you're asking the question as if it's rhetorical, why is this your position?



I'm asking specifically in the context of the "how do we know when it's over"? You've made references to "equal numbers" of presidents, and what timeline you pick would certainly mean very different things.

Good question. When I talk about equal numbers, I mean a on a consistent timeline. Basically, we should examine this as far back as when African Americans were allowed to run for president. Very few African Americans have made it to the point where they can be considered a presidential candidate. Why is this? It's definitely not because African Americans inherently do not want to run for presidency. 😛

 

[Aerus]

Nevertheless, "the system" is benefiting others besides white people. Minority students and their communities are benefiting from a program put into place by "the system".

I can answer this question for buttercup.

Because of the way racism works in a society, by saying that "Admissions should be done strictly on a meritocracy and that race should not be considered" makes the whole process inherently NOT equal.

White people do not face racial discrimination in American society. There is no historical institutional ideology against them. African Americans, on the other hand, do have this. This cripples their success and potential greatly. Discrimination against them still exists to a great extent. By ignoring this factor in college admissions, we are essentially putting them at a DISadvantage rather than a neutral standing.

Why do African Americans and people of Hispanic heritage, on average, get significantly lower SAT scores and high school GPA's than their White counterparts? Again, they are not inherently dumber or lazier. THAT is the power of institutional ideology. If we don't account for this racism in college admissions, it ISN'T equal. Remember, even WITH affirmative action, African Americans are still underrepresented. That means that the power of this ideology is INCREDIBLY powerful.

Rather than thinking of AA as a "benefit for minorities", think of it as a "way to ATTEMPT to correct hundreds of years of institutional, dominant ideology". It's by no means a perfect system, but its intent isn't wrongfully founded.

I have a final coming up, so I can't spend more time being comprehensive with my reply, but I do hope I helped bring some thoughts to the table for you.

 

[Reckoner]

Wait guys why are we even discussing this?

Racism is already a thing of the past:

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Wait guys why are we even discussing this?

Racism is already a thing of the past:

I'm a country fan, but this was a weird song.

 

[Reckoner]

I'm a country fan, but this was a weird song.

I hope you didn't listen all the way through. No one should have to suffer like that.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

I hope you didn't listen all the way through. No one should have to suffer like that.

I had to see if it would get better. It did not. Not even a little.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Because of the way racism works in a society, by saying that "Admissions should be done strictly on a meritocracy and that race should not be considered" makes the whole process inherently NOT equal.

White people do not face racial discrimination in American society. There is no historical institutional ideology against them. African Americans, on the other hand, do have this. This cripples their success and potential greatly. Discrimination against them still exists to a great extent. By ignoring this factor in college admissions, we are essentially putting them at a DISadvantage rather than a neutral standing.

Why do African Americans and people of Hispanic heritage, on average, get significantly lower SAT scores and high school GPA's than their White counterparts? Again, they are not inherently dumber or lazier. THAT is the power of institutional ideology. If we don't account for this racism in college admissions, it ISN'T equal. Remember, even WITH affirmative action, African Americans are still underrepresented. That means that the power of this ideology is INCREDIBLY powerful.

Rather than thinking of AA as a "benefit for minorities", think of it as a "way to ATTEMPT to correct hundreds of years of institutional, dominant ideology". It's by no means a perfect system, but its intent isn't wrongfully founded.

So where do Asians fit into this?
1- Discriminated against to roughly the same level as hispanics (I would guess?)
2- Score higher than Whites on avg (and much higher than hispanics)
3- Worst political power I have ever seen (as an Asian, I am even inclined to say this is our own fault due to cultural upbringing)
4- Dinged in affirmative action

 

[Lucca]

I think you're implying that white people put in place a system to help minorities because ultimately it helps them?
Is that what you're saying?

Because ultimately it helps everyone.

 

[Aerus]

So where do Asians fit into this?
1- Discriminated against to roughly the same level as hispanics (I would guess?)
2- Score higher than Whites on avg (and much higher than hispanics)
3- Worst political power I have ever seen (as an Asian, I am even inclined to say this is our own fault due to cultural upbringing)
4- Dinged in affirmative action

Great question! As an Asian American myself, I always wondered this as I was learning all these concepts. If these phenomena truly existed, why is there a greater over-representation of Asians in higher education than even people of Anglo-Saxon ancestry?

In my eyes, there are THREE main factors that explain this trend:

-Culture
-Racism
-History of Power Dynamics

Asian culture HIGHLY emphasizes academic performance. This cultural influence affects a lot of things, from why you see a greater amount of Asians in "prestigious professions" to why Eating Disorders (a biologically based mental disorder) afflicts a lower percentage of culturally acclimated Asian Americans.

But the second reason, racism, has an even greater effect. Have you ever heard of the "Model Minority" Myth? It's a myth that states, because Asians have achieved so much in their time here, they are the "example" of what a minority SHOULD be. This racist stereotype is sort of a "high expectations" guidelines for Asian Americans. This obviously would not impede performance, but rather acts as a "pseudo-positive" racial stereotype.

The third reason is the most significant of the three. Asians came to American as these "hard working foreign aliens". Blacks came into this country as slaves. Hispanic Americans came into this country because their land was taken away (and partly because they were being used as labor). Of the three, African Americans had the worst foundation in this power structure. Hispanics are second and Asians have it the best. While Asian Americans face A LOT of discrimination in society (I personally understand this), these three factors TOGETHER explains why they do so well in school. And since a lot of success is based off of how well you perform in school, THAT explains why Asian Americans have experienced moderate success, despite the racial power imbalance against them.

Regarding your Affirmative Action question, Affirmative Action seeks to even out the academic playing field, not the playing field in society as a whole, so that's a bit of a separate reason.

 

[ChemEngMD]

So where do Asians fit into this?
1- Discriminated against to roughly the same level as hispanics (I would guess?)
2- Score higher than Whites on avg (and much higher than hispanics)
3- Worst political power I have ever seen (as an Asian, I am even inclined to say this is our own fault due to cultural upbringing)
4- Dinged in affirmative action

I agree with all of your points except for #1...you can't really equate types of discrimination. Historically this country has done some really messed up stuff to both groups, but trying to compare and say who has had it worse is going down a rabbit hole.

 

[Womb Raider]

Wow! Two people having to take a break from posting due to finals in one thread!

Again, you haven't taken a Sociology class. You are using a completely different definition of power. Your "power" is something you can abuse. I'm talking about Societal power. You are completely oversimplifying the situation if you're just looking for examples of minorities in powerful positions.

Let me ask you this then: Why are the demographics so skewed in these positions of power? Surgeons, professors, judges, President, etc. And if you say "because African Americans don't want to be those" then we are done talking😛

Semantics again... sweet. Give me some concrete examples of how societal power is currently hindering the progression of blacks. I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm trying to better understand your argument.

Let me ask you this then: Why are the demographics so skewed in these positions of power? Surgeons, professors, judges, President, etc. And if you say "because African Americans don't want to be those" then we are done talking😛

How are they skewed? This is a serious question. You never answered my question about how you interpret equality.

Rather than thinking of AA as a "benefit for minorities", think of it as a "way to ATTEMPT to correct hundreds of years of institutional, dominant ideology". It's by no means a perfect system, but its intent isn't wrongfully founded.

I have a final coming up

This method of correcting the aforementioned atrocities is not the optimal way of fixing things, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Namely:

1. This method of correction actually harms another group of people, which only serves to...
2. ...perpetuate the problem & racism by giving the *majority* another reason to have misgivings about the minorities in question.
3. The people you are punishing in this method are not of the same generation as the people that actually committed the crimes (institutional racism). (Kind of like prison sentences in North Korea transferring to son, grandson, etc..).
4. Minorities will never truly be thought of / treated as equals if they receive these free handouts. This idea of "leveling the playing field" is a fallacy. When have the majority and minority EVER been equal?

 

[Lucca]

So where do Asians fit into this?
1- Discriminated against to roughly the same level as hispanics (I would guess?)
2- Score higher than Whites on avg (and much higher than hispanics)
3- Worst political power I have ever seen (as an Asian, I am even inclined to say this is our own fault due to cultural upbringing)
4- Dinged in affirmative action

They are the most successful group in this country while simultaneously being the only a group a large portion of the population feels is "OK" to stereotype because they are largely successful, wealthy, and mild-mannered. I wouldn't say they are discriminated against to the same level as hispanics - there aren't several groups built for the sole purpose of curbing or even halting Asian immigration to the US (though those groups do exist, they are at least not backed by any major political machines) or making it harder for Asians to participate in democracy (even though Asians are predominantly Democrats like the other minority groups).

We've had this discussion before but I disagree that they are dinged in affirmative action (to a degree that is significant).

 

[sourdoughllama]

I agree with all of your points except for #1...you can't really equate types of discrimination. Historically this country has done some really messed up stuff to both groups, but trying to compare and say who has had it worse is going down a rabbit hole.

My bad. That was only to exclude african americans from my question (as in neither hispanics nor asians were slaves)

 

[Lucca]

My bad. That was only to exclude african americans from my question (as in neither hispanics nor asians were slaves)

Well there was that whole Japanese internment camp business during the second world war....not exactly slavery.

Also Chinese railroad workers before that, Asian immigrant quotas, etc. Most of it is history now but Asians did have their horror-stories in this country too.

 

[Aerus]

Semantics again... sweet. Give me some concrete examples of how societal power is currently hindering the progression of blacks. I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm trying to better understand your argument.

I apologize for not making my post clear. I'll try my best to explain. 😛

I've given examples of statistics in this thread. I'll state some of them again.

-Why do we see a huge overrepresentation of White people in higher education compared to people of African and Hispanic ancestry? They aren't dumber.

-Why are Black and Hispanic people MUCH more likely to be incarcerated for crimes when crime rates between them and White people do not differ significantly in poorer communities?

-Why is the wealth distribution so skewed towards White people in society? This is a class issue, but since race and class frequently interact, it's a valid concern.

How are they skewed? This is a serious question. You never answered my question about how you interpret equality.

Skewed means that there are X% of white people in America and Y% of black people in America. Why do we not see that same % in terms of those positions? If racism was truly gone, this "interest" for positions like surgeon, justice, president should be completely random and we would see similar percentages in those positions. That is clearly not the case. It's heavily skewed towards White people compared to Blacks and Hispanics.

This method of correcting the aforementioned atrocities is not the optimal way of fixing things, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Namely:

1. This method of correction actually harms another group of people, which only serves to...
2. ...perpetuate the problem & racism by giving the *majority* another reason to have misgivings about the minorities in question.
3. The people you are punishing in this method are not of the same generation as the people that actually committed the crimes (institutional racism). (Kind of like prison sentences in North Korea transferring to son, grandson, etc..).
4. Minorities will never truly be thought of / treated as equals if they receive these free handouts. This idea of "leveling the playing field" is a fallacy.

I definitely agree that Affirmative Action is NOT the perfect solution, but that's the huge issue with Affirmative Action. How else can we attempt to correct this imbalance in the academic field? If we COMPLETELY get rid of Affirmative Action, basically every college will see huge demographics of Asians and Whites and very little, if at all, Blacks, Hispanics, etc.

Diversity helps the community understand their circumstances. If we have a large black and hispanic presence on campus, their own experiences can be shared with the Whites on campus. If everyone on campus was White and/or Asian, how will we ever move forward? I am Asian American myself so I am saying this from a neutral perspective, since Affirmative Action was something I dealt with during my college admissions as well.

 

[sourdoughllama]

They are the most successful group in this country while simultaneously being the only a group a large portion of the population feels is "OK" to stereotype because they are largely successful, wealthy, and mild-mannered. I wouldn't say they are discriminated against to the same level as hispanics - there aren't several groups built for the sole purpose of curbing or even halting Asian immigration to the US (though those groups do exist, they are at least not backed by any major political machines) or making it harder for Asians to participate in democracy (even though Asians are predominantly Democrats like the other minority groups).

We've had this discussion before but I disagree that they are dinged in affirmative action (to a degree that is significant).

There's a history of anti-asian immigration (chinese exclusion act, immigration act of 1924, asiatic barred zone act). I'm not familiar with immigration laws at all, but I am under the impression that hispanic immigration laws seek to limit illegal immigration, not legal immigration? I could totally be wrong on this though. But that was my bad on not explaining what I meant by that. Compared to African american slavery, hispanics and asians faced similar levels of discrimination on a basic level (more than white, less than african americans).

With regards to affirmative action, for med school, yes I agree it's not a big difference (maybe 1 mcat point and less than 0.1 gpa), but for undergrad there is a larger SAT margin. But regardless of significance or not, I am against it. If I have to pay $1.01 for a candy bar when someone else has to pay $1.00, I'm going to have a problem based on principle, not because I think the 1 cent is significant.

 

[Lucca]

There's a history of anti-asian immigration (chinese exclusion act, immigration act of 1924, asiatic barred zone act). I'm not familiar with immigration laws at all, but I am under the impression that hispanic immigration laws seek to limit illegal immigration, not legal immigration? I could totally be wrong on this though. But that was my bad on not explaining what I meant by that. Compared to African american slavery, hispanics and asians faced similar levels of discrimination on a basic level (more than white, less than african americans).

With regards to affirmative action, for med school, yes I agree it's not a big difference (maybe 1 mcat point and less than 0.1 gpa), but for undergrad there is a larger SAT margin. But regardless of significance or not, I am against it. If I have to pay $1.01 for a candy bar when someone else has to pay $1.00, I'm going to have a problem based on principle, not because I think the 1 cent is significant.

I have a problem with undergrad race-based AA as well and I don't like it. SES AA for undergrad is fine though because it can lift entire family groups out of poverty in one fell swoop and actually adds value to the community/college class.

 

[ChemEngMD]

There's a history of anti-asian immigration (chinese exclusion act, immigration act of 1924, asiatic barred zone act). I'm not familiar with immigration laws at all, but I am under the impression that hispanic immigration laws seek to limit illegal immigration, not legal immigration? I could totally be wrong on this though. But that was my bad on not explaining what I meant by that. Compared to African american slavery, hispanics and asians faced similar levels of discrimination on a basic level (more than white, less than african americans).

With regards to affirmative action, for med school, yes I agree it's not a big difference (maybe 1 mcat point and less than 0.1 gpa), but for undergrad there is a larger SAT margin. But regardless of significance or not, I am against it. If I have to pay $1.01 for a candy bar when someone else has to pay $1.00, I'm going to have a problem based on principle, not because I think the 1 cent is significant.

Hispanics actually faced a lot of the same issues as Native Americans...being invaded and having their land taken from them. Not to mention the stuff the United States did in Puerto Rico with human medical testing (very similar to what they did to African Americans in Tuskegee).

 

[chenzt]

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[chenzt]

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[sourdoughllama]

Hispanics actually faced a lot of the same issues as Native Americans...being invaded and having their land taken from them. Not to mention the stuff the United States did in Puerto Rico with human medical testing (very similar to what they did to African Americans in Tuskegee).

That's fair. (I'm just going to upfront about this, I don't know much about the history of Hispanics in America, and the best I can come up with is current developments). My point of posting that is that Asians have had a history of discrimination in this country; regardless of whether it's less or more than Hispanics, it's more than Whites. Yet Asians outscore and out perform Whites in academics. I just find all those arguments too conveniently forgetting that there is a group that has both faced (and still faces) discrimination and performs above average academically. Following Aerus' logic, Asians should be right below Whites in terms of everything since Asians are a minority "who does not hold the power to create the notion of race."

 

[Aerus]

At what point do you leave institutional racism and chalk it up to personal responsibility? You said in a later post, culture is part of the reason why we see how successful Asians are. If Asians are more likely to live in a culture that values education while AA/hispanics do not, and succeed because of it, that's not institutional racism.

That is a very small factor. Power dynamics have a much larger implication on success than culture. There are bound to be people of hispanic and black ancestry who highly value education and work very hard. Why are they so rare in higher education? Most of the black people we see in the Ivy Leagues came from economically well off families (that is a class issue, not a racial one!) Racism is different for African Americans than it is for Asians because their historical institutional ideologies are completely different.


But again, education is one facet of society. As I've said, incarceration shows us significant evidence of racism. The treatment of minority patients versus white patients shows us significant evidence of racism. I can think of more if you wish, but to avoid sounding redundant, I sincerely hope you aren't implying that racism (or rather discrimination against minorities for those who define racism differently) is largely gone today.

 

[Aerus]

I'll agree with the first two parts, but Asians (chinese railroad worker) first came not as "hard working foreign aliens", they probably were on the same social status as black/hispanics back then.

Slaves does not equate to hard working social worker, in my eyes. I certainly hope it isn't in your eyes either. While both went through unspeakable horrors throughout their history in this country, the social perception of these two roles is undoubtedly different.

 

[chenzt]

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[Aerus]

I don't think you can argue that they are similar in proportion compared to Asians.

True, but as I said, culture has a very small impact. I listed it as a reason for explaining the success of Asian Americans in higher education only because it IS a factor, albeit a comparatively small one.

Nope, it's alive and well. But Asians succeed in spite of racism while Hispanics and AA are negatively affected by it.

That is the Model Minority Myth LOL. "Asians succeeded despite racism. Thus, all races should be expected to do this." This is part of the reason why Asians succeed. This racism is "pseudo-positive". I say psuedo because it is largely negative for both sides. What about the Asians who do not succeed academically? They suffer from this stereotype. So please don't say "Asians did it, so the other minorities can do it too."

That's perpetuating a stereotype that Asians are a model for every minority when in fact Asians faced different challenges from African Americans and Hispanic Americans, so they ARE NOT a model. They were never slaves. Their land did not become a part of the United States.

 

[chenzt]

Slaves does not equate to hard working social worker, in my eyes. I certainly hope it isn't in your eyes either. While both went through unspeakable horrors throughout their history in this country, the social perception of these two roles is undoubtedly different.

Social worker?

 

[487806]

True, but as I said, culture has a very small impact. I listed it as a reason for explaining the success of Asian Americans in higher education only because it IS a factor, albeit a comparatively small one.

Maybe I'm taking this out-of-context since I didn't read this rehashed debate, but that quote sounds odd

 

[Aerus]

Social worker?

Bad word choice, but you get the idea. They were perceived as labor when they came to the United States, instead of property.

 

[Aerus]

Maybe I'm taking this out-of-context since I didn't read this rehashed debate, but that quote sounds odd

It's odd indeed. Many perceive culture, and thus hard work, solely to be the reason. And that is why the Model Minority myth still perpetuates today. It's a huge presence in our society. Heck, my parents believe in this myth as well. ASIANS are perpetuating this racist myth.

 

[chenzt]

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[Aerus]

Current AA were never slaves either. Current Hispanics did not have their lands taken either. When it comes to education, this doesn't really stand as an argument?

This is the hard to understand part of Sociology. It's a common question.

"How do historical institutional ideologies affect people today? Technically, because that African American man was never a slave in his lifetime, he is equal to that White man who was never a slave."

It's hard to grasp, but the history of a certain race has LARGE implications and effects on how they are perceived in society as a whole. This is why history is a large, important part of the social sciences. These effects are hard to see with the untrained eye, so the best I can explain is using the statistical questions I posed to you earlier. To fully explain and delve into these phenomena would force me to write a whole essay for you and that would not even cover everything. There is a whole major for this stuff, I mean! 😛

 

[sourdoughllama]

It's odd indeed. Many perceive culture, and thus hard work, solely to be the reason. And that is why the Model Minority myth still perpetuates today. It's a huge presence in our society. Heck, my parents believe in this myth as well. ASIANS are perpetuating this racist myth.

Your points sound convincing. But I have to ask, where is the data to back all your claims for the past few pages? I mean, it sounds reasonable, yet it also sounds like it is highly opinion based. Can you really prove to us that African American representation in higher education is a reflection of their past struggles? Can you prove to us that Hispanics face a higher level of discrimination than Asians because their territory was annexed? This is one of the big reasons I did not major in the social sciences. Because the leading opinion of a few respected academics dominates, and becomes the basis for further conclusions in those fields.

My question to you is:
1- Can you tell me with certainty it is the historical context from which minorities (AA, Hispanics) come from that shapes their current level of success?
2- Is it possible that due to current social dynamics, studies were formed to look into the past to explain the present? Granted, the evidence is pretty good, how can you be sure had Asians been slaves that the outcome would've been the same?

Bottom line is that all these cultures have different standards, and what they value. I am Brazilian, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you moved Brazilians over to America given Asian conditions of the past, the outcome would not be the same because different cultures value different things.

 

[Aerus]

Your points sound convincing. But I have to ask, where is the data to back all your claims for the past few pages? I mean, it sounds reasonable, yet it also sounds like it is highly opinion based. Can you really prove to us that African American representation in higher education is a reflection of their past struggles? Can you prove to us that Hispanics face a higher level of discrimination than Asians because their territory was annexed? This is one of the big reasons I did not major in the social sciences. Because the leading opinion of a few respected academics dominates, and becomes the basis for further conclusions in those fields.

My question to you is:
1- Can you tell me with certainty it is the historical context from which minorities (AA, Hispanics) come from that shapes their current level of success?
2- Is it possible that due to current social dynamics, studies were formed to look into the past to explain the present? Granted, the evidence is pretty good, how can you be sure had Asians been slaves that the outcome would've been the same?

Bottom line is that all these cultures have different standards, and what they value. I am Brazilian, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you moved Brazilians over to America given Asian conditions of the past, the outcome would not be the same because different cultures value different things.

This is why the Social Sciences are considered a field based on critical arguments and evidence. There is a major area of sociology where people debate how large of an effect these have. I can look up statistical evidence online if you want, but I don't think my lack of providing it on this forum is the reason for your questions.

Can we be FOR SURE this is why the education gap between race is so large? Of course not. We can never be sure of anything in this world. But my question for all of this is, if it's not the historical implications of race, then what can it be? We know that money isn't the reason for this, since how do you explain the huge economic gap? There is no genetic difference between a black man and a white man. Education is important but White people don't value it 7x more than Black people do. So why do we see such huge discrepancies? You went to UCLA right? Why is it, that without Affirmative Action in the UCs, the black presence on campus is so low? California has A LOT of African Americans.

 

[Womb Raider]

There is no genetic difference between a black man and a white man.

Bold claim my friend, unfortunately I have to disagree with you.

Genetics is everything. Look at the average height charts by country - they vary tremendously. Look at professional sports (this is not solely a product of blacks placing a larger emphasis on sports than others).

We don't know the first thing about genetics and how it affects human intelligence. I'm not saying that one race is genetically smarter, or has more potential than another (although this is probably the case, as with other attributes), but to say that everyone is equal is just silly. It would be naive to think that genetics does not affect intelligence.

People are not created equal.

 

[Aerus]

Bold claim my friend, unfortunately I have to disagree with you.

Genetics is everything. Look at the average height charts by country - they vary tremendously. Look at professional sports (this is not solely a product of blacks placing a larger emphasis on sports than others).

We don't know the first thing about genetics and how it affects human intelligence. I'm not saying that one race is genetically smarter (or has more potential) than another, but to say that everyone is equal is just silly. It would be naive not think that genetics does not affect intelligence.

People are not created equal.

Fine, let me clarify. No person's genetic make up is identical other than twins. Heck, twins have epigenetic differences as well, so they're not exactly the same.

When I say genetics, I mean to say, is the difference between a black man and a white man SO DIFFERENT that we can explain the HUGE gaps in education between them, the HUGE gaps in incarceration between them, the HUGE gaps in medical treatment between them, the HUGE gaps in attaining powerful positions in American Society between them, etc.. Genetics affect intelligence, but is the intelligence difference, genetically, between races that large? I highly highly doubt it and if you are somewhat informed in the sciences (I'm pretty sure you are since you're on SDN), that you should doubt it too.

 

[sourdoughllama]

This is why the Social Sciences are considered a field based on critical arguments and evidence. There is a major area of sociology where people debate how large of an effect these have. I can look up statistical evidence online if you want, but I don't think my lack of providing it on this forum is the reason for your questions.

Can we be FOR SURE this is why the education gap between race is so large? Of course not. We can never be sure of anything in this world. But my question for all of this is, if it's not the historical implications of race, then what can it be? We know that money isn't the reason for this, since how do you explain the huge economic gap? There is no genetic difference between a black man and a white man. Education is important but White people don't value it 7x more than Black people do. So why do we see such huge discrepancies? You went to UCLA right? Why is it, that without Affirmative Action in the UCs, the black presence on campus is so low? California has A LOT of African Americans.

We can be a lot more sure about lot of things. All the arguments you've talked about have been well thought out and presented, they're just nowhere as concrete as I'd like to take your word for it. And yes you're right, it's a field based on critical argument and evidence (but not scientific proof). Thus the interpretations and conclusions drawn from such a field is convincing at best.

If it's not the historical implications of race, then it is what I suggested: different cultures value different things.
Example: Rap and basketball. These are things that are highly interwoven into the African American community, thus you see a high level of achievement in those areas from that particular demographic.

Example: Entertainment (TV). Hispanics and Latinos value entertainment (I know because I've lived there). Hence the huge success of Hispanics in entertainment, and especially the film industry.

Example: Piano and Violin. Asians believe these are the only real instruments to be played - hence a huge over representation in these instruments vs. other instruments.

Yes, these are generalizations, but also true at the population level. Different groups value different things, and you will see them over represented accordingly.

These are not random conglomerations of ethnicities due to historical implications. It is a mixture of what the culture values, and their place within modern society.

The ban in Affirmative Action sees less black people because they score lower? I'm not exactly sure what that's asking. UCs operate on a meritocratic system (technically), so highest qualifications get in.

 

[Aerus]

We can be a lot more sure about lot of things. All the arguments you've talked about have been well thought out and presented, they're just nowhere as concrete as I'd like to take your word for it. And yes you're right, it's a field based on critical argument and evidence (but not scientific proof). Thus the interpretations and conclusions drawn from such a field is convincing at best.

If it's not the historical implications of race, then it is what I suggested: different cultures value different things.
Example: Rap and basketball. These are things that are highly interwoven into the African American community, thus you see a high level of achievement in those areas from that particular demographic.

Example: Entertainment (TV). Hispanics and Latinos value entertainment (I know because I've lived there). Hence the huge success of Hispanics in entertainment, and especially the film industry.

Example: Piano and Violin. Asians believe these are the only real instruments to be played - hence a huge over representation in these instruments vs. other instruments.

Yes, these are generalizations, but also true at the population level. Different groups value different things, and you will see them over represented accordingly.

These are not random conglomerations of ethnicities due to historical implications. It is a mixture of what the culture values, and their place within modern society.

Agreed. That's why I said culture DOES have an effect on education and academics. How much in ratio compared with power dynamics? We can debate between that forever. But that still doesn't explain the LACK of educational achievement. I'll refer to that below.

The ban in Affirmative Action sees less black people because they score lower? I'm not exactly sure what that's asking. UCs operate on a meritocratic system (technically), so highest qualifications get in.

Why do they score so much lower as a whole group compared to White people, whose culture does not emphasize education much more than Black culture? The discrepancy compared to Asians, we can bring up culture as ONE factor (compared to others). Not between White and Black culture, especially since there is a huge gap.

 

[sourdoughllama]

Agreed. That's why I said culture DOES have an effect on education and academics. How much in ratio compared with power dynamics? We can debate between that forever. But that still doesn't explain the LACK of educational achievement. I'll refer to that below.

Why do they score so much lower as a whole group compared to White people, whose culture does not emphasize education much more than Black culture? The discrepancy compared to Asians, we can bring up culture as ONE factor (compared to others). Not between White and Black culture, especially since there is a huge gap.

That is debatable. But assuming they are not different, it comes down to SES. Wealthier people are on average going to score better than poorer people. A larger population of minorities are of low SES compared to whites. So the question comes back to what causes this discrepancy in the first place, and we can point to a number of things. Yes, historical context probably plays a role. But again, so does what each culture values most. I am certain if every African American put in as much time and excessive behavior into getting into colleges as Asians, there would be a higher percentage of them in higher education. Just like I am certain if every Asian Americans put in as much time into networking instead of studying and obsessing over academics, they would be much better represented in media and government.

 

[masaraksh]

You're assuming the white applicant is middle class and the Mexican doesn't have support and had to work hard for his 3.5. That is the problem with race-based affirmative action. Or I should say, with people who are proponents of it. Because people assume things even though the original hypothetical merely said "white applicant with 3.7" and "Mexican immigrant with 3.5." In fact, the hypothetical said age 3, which is not a huge deal. I came to America at 12 (and my family is still poor), but I have very competitive stats and I don't whine about my struggles. I sucked it up and performed as well as my native born counterparts.

"assumption is the mother of all F8@(-ups." - Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

 

[buttercup12]

At what point do you leave institutional racism and chalk it up to personal responsibility? You said in a later post, culture is part of the reason why we see how successful Asians are. If Asians are more likely to live in a culture that values education while AA/hispanics do not, and succeed because of it, that's not institutional racism.

I don't understand what you're saying? I can't speak to Hispanics, but as an African-American it's kind of hard to know what your culture is when it wasn't passed down to you because it was beaten out of your great-grandparents. It's why you see such high levels of achievement in Africans compared to AAs.

 

[buttercup12]

Your points sound convincing. But I have to ask, where is the data to back all your claims for the past few pages? I mean, it sounds reasonable, yet it also sounds like it is highly opinion based. Can you really prove to us that African American representation in higher education is a reflection of their past struggles? Can you prove to us that Hispanics face a higher level of discrimination than Asians because their territory was annexed? This is one of the big reasons I did not major in the social sciences. Because the leading opinion of a few respected academics dominates, and becomes the basis for further conclusions in those fields.

My question to you is:
1- Can you tell me with certainty it is the historical context from which minorities (AA, Hispanics) come from that shapes their current level of success?
2- Is it possible that due to current social dynamics, studies were formed to look into the past to explain the present? Granted, the evidence is pretty good, how can you be sure had Asians been slaves that the outcome would've been the same?

Bottom line is that all these cultures have different standards, and what they value. I am Brazilian, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you moved Brazilians over to America given Asian conditions of the past, the outcome would not be the same because different cultures value different things.

1. Yes. Well this is just history, but a big part of slavery was to not educate the black man. Slaves who were found to be in pursuit of education such as just learning how to read were often brutally beaten, amputated, and even killed. I believe it was after the Reconstruction Era, now that they were "free" many AAs looked to educate themselves such as building schools and colleges (I think this was right about the time that Howard was founded). However, the same mentality of not letting blacks become educated was still high and many schools were burned down and students/teachers severely beaten. And even as AAs slowly became able to find means to educate themselves it was still in segregated environments. I'm sure you're aware of Brown v. Board of Education, and how fairly recently, black people have been receiving the same education as whites but there's still wariness that surrounds this from the black community. I've done a lot of work with minorities (specifically AAs) in middle and high school and it's evident that this wariness of them pursuing education is passed down. And this is also compounded with their supposed educators who are supposed to build them up pushing them away from going to college and becoming a lawyer/doctor/engineer/whatever and it's a travesty.

2. I don't know, this isn't something you can really take and apply to another group. But I don't think studies were actually formed to look into the past and explain the present. I think it pretty clearly explains itself.

 

[chenzt]

.

 

[sourdoughllama]

1. Yes. Well this is just history, but a big part of slavery was to not educate the black man. Slaves who were found to be in pursuit of education such as just learning how to read were often brutally beaten, amputated, and even killed. I believe it was after the Reconstruction Era, now that they were "free" many AAs looked to educate themselves such as building schools and colleges (I think this was right about the time that Howard was founded). However, the same mentality of not letting blacks become educated was still high and many schools were burned down and students/teachers severely beaten. And even as AAs slowly became able to find means to educate themselves it was still in segregated environments. I'm sure you're aware of Brown v. Board of Education, and how fairly recently, black people have been receiving the same education as whites but there's still wariness that surrounds this from the black community. I've done a lot of work with minorities (specifically AAs) in middle and high school and it's evident that this wariness of them pursuing education is passed down. And this is also compounded with their supposed educators who are supposed to build them up pushing them away from going to college and becoming a lawyer/doctor/engineer/whatever and it's a travesty.

2. I don't know, this isn't something you can really take and apply to another group. But I don't think studies were actually formed to look into the past and explain the present. I think it pretty clearly explains itself.

1- No. Those are just historical facts that may have or may have not shaped the current level of success. You're most likely right, but you can't be sure. That is the reason history is not a science. You cannot be sure.

2- You are being naive and unscientific if you think that studies based on observations with already known results introduces bias.

Those were not hard questions, and were more hypothetical questions than not. And there is a right answer to those questions. And the answer is "no, you cannot be sure"

 

[Apollo1]

"Never waste your time explaining yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - dream hampton

"It is unbecoming for young men to utter maxims." - Aristotle

 

[chenzt]

.

 

[Womb Raider]

So I think a lot of it has to do with environment when it comes to higher education too, but some is also their own personal responsibility.

Good luck getting these people to admit personal responsibility ever plays a factor. There's always an excuse. It's just pity pity pity... Let's not expect anything from these people and then expect them to magically decide to start working hard. Wait, if I can receive welfare and sub-par admissions rates without working hard, why would I?