Straw-Man fallacy and SDN

[chenzt]

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[Womb Raider]

You're taking it way too far. And undermines any legitimate arguments you had.

If you were AA and had a sufficient GPA and made a 29 on your MCAT, would you retake it?

 

[NontradCA]

If you were AA and had a sufficient GPA and made a 29 on your MCAT, would you retake it?

No and I didn't. Got into 3 schools. Have a diversity scholarship. Government paying all my tuition, books, fees, computers plus housing allowance (your taxes btw).

 

[chenzt]

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[sliceofbread136]

29 MCAT = 72 percentile. That's not "not expect anything" that you mentioned earlier, is it? Even I would think long and hard about a retake.

Let's not kid ourselves, in today's climate a 29 MCAT is not very good

 

[NontradCA]

Let's not kid ourselves, in today's climate a 29 MCAT is not very good

Was good enough for me, and the schools I was accepted at.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Was good enough for me, and the schools I was accepted at.

Yes because you are URM. It's more than good enough for you as you already pointed out.

A non-URM in cali would likely be a very different story.

 

[Womb Raider]

No and I didn't. Got into 3 schools. Have a diversity scholarship. Government paying all my tuition, books, fees, computers plus housing allowance (your taxes btw).

And yet... you use Tom Cruise. Congrats on the acceptance though.

 

[NontradCA]

Yes because you are URM. It's more than good enough for you as you already pointed out.

A non-URM in cali would likely be a very different story.

Well, if a non-URM was like me they'd do whatever it takes.

 

[NontradCA]

And yet... you use Tom Cruise. Congrats on the acceptance though.

Why wouldn't I use Tom Cruise? I love Top Gun.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Why wouldn't I use Tom Cruise? I love Top Gun.

Never said you wouldn't. Congrats on your acceptances btw

 

[ChemEngMD]

Good luck getting these people to admit personal responsibility ever plays a factor. There's always an excuse. It's just pity pity pity... Let's not expect anything from these people and then expect them to magically decide to start working hard. Wait, if I can receive welfare and sub-par admissions rates without working hard, why would I?

C'mon bro - you've never gone full troll on us.

You're better than this.

 

[Lucca]

Let's not kid ourselves, in today's climate a 29 MCAT is not very good

In today's SDN climate a 29 mcat is not very good. It's still fine for like 30% of accepted applicants.

If we start telling ourselves that you need 99th percentile scores to get into any medical school then we will be no better than college confidential.

 

[listener23]

"It is unbecoming for young men to utter maxims." - Aristotle

Unbecoming in who's eyes? Never conform to societies status quo.

“It's weird not to be weird.” - John Lennon

 

[Womb Raider]

Unbecoming in who's eyes? Never conform to societies status quo.

Aristotle's, apparently.

 

[sliceofbread136]

In today's SDN climate a 29 mcat is not very good. It's still fine for like 30% of accepted applicants.

If we start telling ourselves that you need 99th percentile scores to get into any medical school then we will be no better than college confidential.

If you want to gamble a year of your life and the cost/effort of applying on those odds, then yes a 29 is fine.

Personally, I would retake and aim for around a 32.

 

[midnight0il]

FWIW, reading through both sides of the argument, I think the truth always lies somewhere in between. Does institutional racism play a role in the success of one group over another? Of course. Culture? Yes. Personal responsibility (which I think is too often overlooked)? Check. I think we're arguing the degree to which these factors influence success, which is of course, highly debatable (supported by the fact that I'm on page 6 of 6, on thread 1 of 1,945,742,477 that relate to URM advantage).

Affirmative action and URM advantage by nature is not fair, but it seems to be the solution du jour to a problem that is inherently based on a lack of fairness. I'm sure other better initiatives will eventually supersede it to the point where it no longer becomes an issue. That seems to be the course of progress in this country and the best thing we can hope for. Time heals.

 

[Lucca]

If you want to gamble a year of your life and the cost/effort of applying on those odds, then yes a 29 is fine.

Personally, I would retake and aim for around a 32.

Well yah, I would do the same. I'm just saying it's not the end of the world.

 

[buttercup12]

Well, w/e. I've got finals to study for so I'm gonna leave this discussion but I'm glad this was at least a fairly civil discussion!

 

[Augstartcodon]

Ahhhh the Irony, now stay on topic.

Did you have to look up the word irony to use it? Also you capitalized a word in the middle of a sentence...

 

[No Limits]

Good luck getting these people to admit personal responsibility ever plays a factor. There's always an excuse. It's just pity pity pity... Let's not expect anything from these people and then expect them to magically decide to start working hard. Wait, if I can receive welfare and sub-par admissions rates without working hard, why would I?

Was this a joke?

 

[kingjameslbj]

Good luck getting these people to admit personal responsibility ever plays a factor. There's always an excuse. It's just pity pity pity... Let's not expect anything from these people and then expect them to magically decide to start working hard. Wait, if I can receive welfare and sub-par admissions rates without working hard, why would I?

Good job summing up your racism.

 

[kingjameslbj]

Was this a joke?

Highly doubtful. Its how he @sourdoughllama and @Patassa view minorities.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Highly doubtful. Its how he sourdoughllama and Patassa view minorities.

For the record, sourdoughllama is an Asian-Brazilian

 

[kingjameslbj]

For the record, sourdoughllama is an Asian-Brazilian

SO? An Asian Brazilian that changed his last name? Why is he so worried about getting a Hispanic boost when he is Hispanic? He should write a novel.

 

[No Limits]

Highly doubtful. Its how he @sourdoughllama and @Patassa view minorities.

idk, @sourdoughllama has raised some good points while actually being surprisingly respectful. I like it... and can appreciate his arguments to this thread even if I don't agree with many of the things he said. Never thought I would ever say that yet here we are lol.

All jokes aside I think many of us would agree that socioeconomic status of all races should be taken into consideration.

 

[No Limits]

SO? An Asian Brazilian that changed his last name? Why is he so worried about getting a Hispanic boost when he is Hispanic? He should write a novel.

Brazilians are not considered URM I believe.

 

[sourdoughllama]

SO? An Asian Brazilian that changed his last name? Why is he so worried about getting a Hispanic boost when he is Hispanic? He should write a novel.

Dude my trolling in that thread clearly went over your head lol.

 

[kingjameslbj]

idk, @sourdoughllama has raised some good points while actually being surprisingly respectful. I like it... and can appreciate his arguments to this thread even if I don't agree with many of the things he said. Never thought I would ever say that yet here we are lol.

All jokes aside I think many of us would agree that socioeconomic status of all races should be taken into consideration.

I agree with some as well but most are just like

 

[kingjameslbj]

Dude my trolling in that thread clearly went over your head lol. Also Brazilians are not Hispanic, we are latino

Good job trolling, you sure had me going. Every time i saw your damn aviator, i had to say to myself what a jackass.

 

[Patassa]

Highly doubtful. Its how he @sourdoughllama and @Patassa view minorities.

I have no idea why you're picking a fight with me, here. However, let's talk about your view of the majority.

Thats ok. We have to catch up, since my great grandparents were building the white house and picking cotton while yours were starting a business making millions off my grandparents hard work. Tit for tat.

My ancestors were relocated here after an ethnic cleansing. Thanks for the stereotype though, keeping it below the belt and improving race relations.

 

[kingjameslbj]

I have no idea why you're picking a fight with me, here. However, let's talk about your view of the majority.


My ancestors were relocated here after an ethnic cleansing. Thanks for the stereotype though, keeping it below the belt and improving race relations.

Lmao this guy goes back to a thread from a week ago. I wont bother posting your ignorant remarks from that thread because your ignorance is bliss. Just thought you should know.

 

[Patassa]

Lmao this guy goes back to a thread from a week ago. I wont bother posting your ignorant remarks from that thread because your ignorance is bliss. Just thought you should know.

As is yours, it seems.

I'm aware that I've got some gaping holes in my understanding of minority social issues. That's why I started asking questions over the last several pages.

 

[kingjameslbj]

As is yours, it seems.

I'm aware that I've got some gaping holes in my understanding of minority social issues. That's why I started asking questions over the last several pages.

No. You started asking questions because your a hole was being ripped apart by other members introduced to your ignorance. I got a good laugh out of it.

 

[Patassa]

No. You started asking questions because your a hole was being ripped apart by other members introduced to your ignorance. I got a good laugh out of it.

Believe what you want.
Your own ignorance and bigotry could use some work.

 

[No Limits]

Current AA were never slaves either. Current Hispanics did not have their lands taken either. When it comes to education, this doesn't really stand as an argument?

It's deeper than that.

So it is their culture/wariness. If we opened the door for them and they are unwilling to enter it, well... that's just poor decision making.

This is not entirely true.

Slavery ended almost 150 years ago but segregation ended just 50 years ago, in 1964. The effects of both are still felt today. During segregation (before Brown v. Board in 1954), students at colored schools were in dangerously filthy, dilapidated, overcrowded buildings that often had one unqualified teacher with little to no books on site. This is equal footing compared to white students who were in generously funded buildings, equipped with the latest up to date books and resources, with many qualified teachers on site?

Furthermore, African American males who were “educated” or skilled in labor still got paid on average 48% less than white American males or were just discriminated against getting high paying jobs. Thus, creating the need to pull their kids out of school to work and help and support the family. However, once you pull that child out of that poor excuse of a school, they now are even more screwed and so are their future families. It’s kind of a vicious circle.

Even after segregation ended or when “the doors were opened”, minorities were still paid less and still discriminated against for high paying jobs, remember laws can change quickly but attitudes will take longer. Under these conditions, is it really a shocker that minority neighborhoods are twice as poor as the average white ones? That’s not to say Caucasians and Asians can’t be poor it’s just ludicrous to say that minorities are entirely responsible for their own demise in education or that they don’t value it. Some people who were in segregated schools are still alive today... it wasn’t that long ago.

Things have improved indeed, the conditions and opportunities that exist today for minorities are far greater than it ever was. The number of college grads for African Americans have quintupled since 1970 and it expected to grow even higher in another 40 years. Will we still think African American’s don’t culturally value education then? Things are rough right now but it will take some time to get better. However, we have got to stop looking at schools recruiting more URM’s as a way to give a hand out or affirmative action when the real reason is provide equal access to health care to groups who are geographically and culturally isolated from accessing health care.

Edit: Sorry I made this so long

 

[kingjameslbj]

Believe what you want.
Your own ignorance and bigotry could use some work.

Lol good response, i guess you couldn't come up with much more. No need to believe, just read. BTW @No Limits just posted something for your ignorant mind. Read up. It answers lots of your ignorant comments. One being "Its not my fault an AA cant move up in life, they have the same opportunity i have"

 

[Patassa]

One being "Its not my fault an AA cant move up in life, they have the same opportunity i have"

I don't recall saying that. Can you show me where I said that?

Even if I did, like I said I'm aware that I'm not well versed in the struggles of minorities.

From my perspective, having been raised with minorities going to the same schools, under the same teachers, riding the same bus, living in the same neighborhood, playing the same sports, taking the same tests, going to the same parties etc, the opportunities presented to us were in fact the same. Namely, relatively open admissions to several state schools with either loans or grants to pay for it. Were the circumstances for each of us different? Of course, this can be said about any two people.

 

[Womb Raider]

Was this a joke?

Lol is today national Smallville fans unite day or something?

Good job summing up your racism.

Haha here we go again. It never ceases to amaze me how quick you guys are to pull the racism card and wave it in my face every chance you get.

A) I'm not racist.
B) I'm upset with the system, not the people who benefit from it. I don't think it's ethical and I certainly don't think it's the right way to go about solving these problems.
C) There are probably more white people living off disability and welfare than all the minorities combined (I have no idea). My feelings towards these people are EXACTLY the same as I feel about minorities living off the government.

Good job trolling, you sure had me going. Every time i saw your damn aviator, i had to say to myself what a jackass.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Seriously though, you know you need to take a break when you start with the personal attacks. Go have a beer or something.

 

[kingjameslbj]

Lol is today national Smallville fans unite day or something?



Sorry, couldn't help myself. Seriously though, you know you need to take a break when you start with the personal attacks. Go have a beer or something.

Agreed, but i wont sit back and let someone call me a bigot to a particular race when im engaged to a Caucasian, i speak fluent Spanish and my best friend is a white Cuban. Going for beer now. Dueces.

 

[Patassa]

Lol is today national Smallville fans unite day or something?



Haha here we go again. It never ceases to amaze me how quick you guys are to pull the racism card and wave it in my face every chance you get.

A) I'm not racist.
B) I'm upset with the system, not the people who benefit from it. I don't think it's ethical and I certainly don't think it's the right way to go about solving these problems.
C) There are probably more white people living off disability and welfare than all the minorities combined (I have no idea). My feelings towards these people are EXACTLY the same as I feel about minorities living off the government.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Seriously though, you know you need to take a break when you start with the personal attacks. Go have a beer or something.

Name calling is easy and requires minimal effort. It's obvious that many do not understand the difference between attacking the position and attacking the person.
When pointing this out, they then justify why the person SHOULD be attacked. Which is really just more personal attacks.
Open minds have no place here.

 

[metview]

OP is a d-bag and a troll. He got what he wanted; 6 pages. Someone should have posted this earlier.

 

[<3Medicine<3]

So where do Asians fit into this?
1- Discriminated against to roughly the same level as hispanics (I would guess?)
2- Score higher than Whites on avg (and much higher than hispanics)
3- Worst political power I have ever seen (as an Asian, I am even inclined to say this is our own fault due to cultural upbringing)
4- Dinged in affirmative action

This is a fantastic point, but the problem is the likely answer to these questions is not politically correct. Right now there's a general belief that "all groups share the same cognitive abilities" even if there's an overwhelming amount of evidence (IMHO) which shows otherwise.

Here's a link to the study "30 year of research on race differences in cognitive ability," a study done by one professor from UC Berkeley and another from Western Ontario -------------- http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic185351.files/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf

Obviously, the belief that not all races are the same in cognitive ability is going to be extremely controversial no matter how much evidence there is. Most people, myself included, would agree it's much more comforting to believe every group has the same athletic/intellectual/etc abilities regardless of their skin color. Unfortunately, if this study is correct, the average East Asian has an IQ of 106, the average White has an IQ of 102, and the average Black has an IQ of 85. This difference is seen in the American population as well. Furthermore, if this study is indeed accurate, it makes sense why Asians are such high achievers despite being subject to so much racism throughout American history as they're overall the most intelligent group (other than a few smaller groups, such as Jews, who also are incredibly high achieving and also faced discrimination in college admissions not too long ago...).

This of course doesn't mean the playing field is level and certain groups haven't faced extreme racism because of their skin. It just does shed some light on why Asians have likely been so successful, as well as stresses the point that achievement gaps are not likely due solely to discrimination (exactly how much of it is due to discrimination and how much of it due to differences in cognitive ability will of course always be unknowable and subject to debate).

 

[Euxox]

This is a fantastic point, but the problem is the likely answer to these questions is not politically correct. Right now there's a general belief that "all groups share the same cognitive abilities" even if there's an overwhelming amount of evidence (IMHO) which shows otherwise.

Here's a link to the study "30 year of research on race differences in cognitive ability," a study done by one professor from UC Berkeley and another from Western Ontario -------------- http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic185351.files/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf

Obviously, the belief that not all races are the same in cognitive ability is going to be extremely controversial no matter how much evidence there is. Most people, myself included, would agree it's much more comforting to believe every group has the same athletic/intellectual/etc abilities regardless of their skin color. Unfortunately, if this study is correct, the average East Asian has an IQ of 106, the average White has an IQ of 102, and the average Black has an IQ of 85. This difference is seen in the American population as well. Furthermore, if this study is indeed accurate, it makes sense why Asians are such high achievers despite being subject to so much racism throughout American history as they're overall the most intelligent group (other than a few smaller groups, such as Jews, who also are incredibly high achieving and also faced discrimination in college admissions not too long ago...).

This of course doesn't mean the playing field is level and certain groups haven't faced extreme racism because of their skin. It just does shed some light on why Asians have likely been so successful, as well as stresses the point that achievement gaps are not likely due solely to discrimination (exactly how much of it is due to discrimination and how much of it due to differences in cognitive ability will of course always be unknowable and subject to debate).

That's Social Darwinist pseudoscience. It's been established for a very long time that IQ tests are a terrible measure of innate intelligence. Literally from the very beginning. Alfred Binet, the man who created the first IQ test, wanted to identify children in a particular public school who had learning disabilities. He designed the IQ test to determine which children were learning more slowly, and he explicitly said that the test did not measure innate intelligence. The important thing is that all of the students Binet studied went to the same school. That isn't true in the study that you linked to. Guess what? If you take a test that is measuring how much you got out of school and you attended a crappy school, then you obviously aren't going to do well on said test as kids who went to good schools, and in the US, whites and Asians attend (on average) much better schools than African Americans and Hispanics.

For proof that IQ is terrible at measuring innate intelligence, you need look no farther than the Flynn effect. The Flynn effect is the slow rise in raw IQ scores that has been occurring since the 1930s. IQ scores are normalized such that the median is always 100, but the raw score corresponding to 100 has been going up every year. So much so that in the Netherlands, the average IQ effectively went up 21 points in 30 years. Short of eugenics, there is no way that the gene pool of the Netherlands could have changed so drastically in such a short period of time.

And if you still don't believe me, chew on this:

During the 1960s, when some Virginia counties closed their public schools to avoid racial integration, compensatory private schooling was available only for Caucasian children. On average, the scores of African-American children who did not receive formal education during that period decreased at a rate of about six IQ points per year.

Further reading (always my favorite part of the post 😛)
Flynn effect
Academic Racist J. Philippe Rushton Dead at 68 --> This is the "researcher" that wrote the paper you cited
Dissecting the IQ Debate
IQ tests are 'fundamentally flawed' and using them alone to measure intelligence is a 'fallacy', study finds
The Truth About IQ
IQ Tests 'do not reflect intelligence'

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

Homonym Bandit strikes again.

I think you mean homophone.

 

[VitaminVater]

I love reading threads like these while away on interviews, where in 5 of the 6 I've been to so far I have been the only URM applicant (as far as I can tell, and its MD-PhD so its more apparent there).