Strip Clubs and Professionalism

[seelee]

So we had a Lecture on professionalism and a case study was given that sparked some interesting discussion and I wanted to see what other people thought.

A M3 is a good student, maintains his work load, has made good grades, etc. He regularly (weekly) goes to a strip bar and drinks 4 or 5 nights a week. He has occasionally missed a few shifts and shown up late.

Is his behavior unprofessional, yes or no?

I maintained that his absence and tardiness were unprofessional and while they were caused by his off hours behavior, the behavior in and of itself was not unprofessional because he was keeping it private. In other words, if the student was frequenting a strip club and drinking, but otherwise made all of his shifts, and was not tardy, then it should not be an issue.

Your thoughts?

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[unsung]

Color me biased, but I don't know that if I were a patient, I'd want to go see a doc that frequents a strip club with that degree of regularity. I mean... 4-5 times a week? THAT is his EC activity/entertainment?

I'd kind of question the things going on in his life that led to such behavior... and wonder whether those things (whatever they may be) may affect his abilities as a physician.

Yeah, yeah, biases, stereotyping, whatever. Still.

I guess to me if the behavior of a physician may potentially make a patient trust him/her less, I'd question the professionalism of that behavior. Just tossing out a thought that occurred to me. Feel free to disagree with that assertion, as it's not a completely thought out one at this point.

 

[ZagDoc]

I maintained that his absence and tardiness were unprofessional and while they were caused by his off hours behavior, the behavior in and of itself was not unprofessional because he was keeping it private. In other words, if the student was frequenting a strip club and drinking, but otherwise made all of his shifts, and was not tardy, then it should not be an issue.

Your thoughts?

Depends on how much he is drinking. If he's missing work or arriving late due his drinking, he's a poster case for alcoholism. But its still possible to be a functional alcoholic while having his drinking affect his level of care. Which is not acceptable, IMHO. If he's spending so much money at the strip club he is in financial distress and the worry revolving around it affects his work, its not acceptable IMHO.

The strip club behavior, while a red flag, I don't have any direct qualms with. He's an adult and allowed to do legal, adult things outside of his work. It's activities that are illegal, or which bleed over into his work as a physician, which I would classify as "unprofessional" (to say the least).

 

[seelee]

I am not suggesting that such behavior is unhealthy and that he shouldn't be encouraged to find help by his friends/loved ones etc. What I am saying is that should frequenting a strip club or drinking excessively should not in and of itself be grounds for disciplinary action.

 

[penguin24]

I am not suggesting that such behavior is unhealthy and that he shouldn't be encouraged to find help by his friends/loved ones etc. What I am saying is that should frequenting a strip club or drinking excessively should not in and of itself be grounds for disciplinary action.

Strip clubs are legal, so I don't understand what this has to do w/ 'professionalism'. There's nothing wrong w/ a young girl grinding herself on you for a couple of bucks, showing you her goods, isn't that what strip clubs are for???

The drinking, by itself is not a problem. If he is missing work b/c of drinking, then the tardiness is a problem.

 

[sindadel]

Of course it's unprofessional. Unprofessional enough to be sanctioned? Likely not. But it's clearly to a level where it's interfering with work. Professionalism has little to do with legality. It's not illegal to miss work, be rude, be late etc.

Is that fair? Not particularly. Just consider if he would want his photo getting a lap dance on the local news. If not, it's probably not a good idea.

 

[seelee]

Of course it's unprofessional. Unprofessional enough to be sanctioned? Likely not. But it's clearly to a level where it's interfering with work. Professionalism has little to do with legality. It's not illegal to miss work, be rude, be late etc.

Is that fair? Not particularly. Just consider if he would want his photo getting a lap dance on the local news. If not, it's probably not a good idea.

I think that professionalism is restricted to behavior in the work place. I think we all agree that tardiness and absence is unprofessional. Do you think that to frequent a strip club at all is unprofessional if it is kept discrete?

If so then what is your basis for unprofessionalism? Is it doing anything that may be considered immoral even if it is legal and in your private life?

 

[crx7]

You're only making this an issue b/c of the strip club, there are plenty of med school kids that party it up and drink regularly and show up late. They are all unprofessional, don't single out this guy just because his sex life is pathetic and you don't approve.

Me = So Happy I never got off the waitlist at A&M.

 

[45408]

Is that fair? Not particularly. Just consider if he would want his photo getting a lap dance on the local news. If not, it's probably not a good idea.

It would never happen, because I'm pretty sure they don't allow news crews with video cameras inside strip clubs. Just a guess.

And yes, of course, you can always be seen in public by people you know, so act accordingly. It would probably scare away more patients/families if they saw their local pediatrician hanging out with a bunch of party animals, as opposed to the local radiologist, but it's not really about professionalism, IMO.

Showing up late and missing shifts? That's really bad.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I think that professionalism is restricted to behavior in the work place. I think we all agree that tardiness and absence is unprofessional. Do you think that to frequent a strip club at all is unprofessional if it is kept discrete?

If so then what is your basis for unprofessionalism? Is it doing anything that may be considered immoral even if it is legal and in your private life?

Yes.

 

[Rendar5]

yes, his drinking and strip club attendance is unprofessional because it is directly intertwined with his professional life. Same as if his spare time were helping out at the local senior center all of his nights and coming in late and missing a few shifts because of it. A behavior is unprofessional when it interferes with your work duties and your duties to your patients and reflects badly on your institution and your career.

If he drank every night and were never late to work and never missed a shift and never had a patient's care affected by his drinking, then it wouldnt' be unprofessional, but in this scenario there is no way you can concievably disconnect his strip club/drinking behavior from his work. Honeslty, you can't look at his drinking in a vacuum.

EDIT: oh and if he was a serial killer whose side habit never interfered with his work, I still don't think he would be unprofessional 🙂

 

[Knicks]

Of course it's unprofessional. Unprofessional enough to be sanctioned? Likely not. But it's clearly to a level where it's interfering with work. Professionalism has little to do with legality. It's not illegal to miss work, be rude, be late etc.

Is that fair? Not particularly. Just consider if he would want his photo getting a lap dance on the local news. If not, it's probably not a good idea.

Exactly.

How can this even be a discussion. Of course it's unprofessional if it affects his "attendance",, even if it made him show up to work 1 minute late.


pfft..

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Exactly.

How can this even be a discussion. Of course it's unprofessional if it affects his "attendance",, even if it made him show up to work 1 minute late.


pfft..

The OP stated that he agrees with that, but if it did not affect his attendance, it would not be unprofessional.

I think many people would go with Justice Stewart on this one, and say that it would still be unprofessional even if it didn't affect his work.

 

[halekulani]

not unprofessional if it doesn't affect his work.

 

[Knicks]

The OP stated that he agrees with that, but if it did not affect his attendance, it would not be unprofessional.

I think many people would go with Justice Stewart on this one, and say that it would still be unprofessional even if it didn't affect his work.

The OP said:

.....He has occasionally missed a few shifts and shown up late......

So my point still stands, that that is and always will be considered unprofessional, whatever occupation it may be.

 

[seelee]

You're only making this an issue b/c of the strip club, there are plenty of med school kids that party it up and drink regularly and show up late. They are all unprofessional, don't single out this guy just because his sex life is pathetic and you don't approve.

Me = So Happy I never got off the waitlist at A&M.

What the crap is that supposed to mean?

 

[seelee]

I think that professionalism is restricted to behavior in the work place. I think we all agree that tardiness and absence is unprofessional. Do you think that to frequent a strip club at all is unprofessional if it is kept discrete?

If so then what is your basis for unprofessionalism? Is it doing anything that may be considered immoral even if it is legal and in your private life?

Yes.

So is a doctor who goes on vacation to Vegas to gamble being unprofessional?

What about a doctor who hunts in his spare time?

What about a doctor who is a homosexual?

What about a doctor who attends a fundamentalist christian church.

There are alot of activities that are perfectly legal, yet are considered immoral by significant segments of the population. How is going to a strip club unprofessional in and of itself?

Once again I maintain that the unprofessional act is the lateness and absences and that the after hours behavior is only a problem because it is what is causing the unprofessional behavior.

If a doctor was frequenting a strip club and it was not affecting his work performance then he would not be unprofessional.

 

[Taurus]

Going to strip clubs is legal. If he shows up on time and performs his duties, then there are no issues. If he's late and does a poor job, it's unprofessional, no matter what the cause is. You're treading on thin ice if you call someone "unprofessional" because it has wide implications. Many state and hospital rules have some kind of "unprofessional" clause and you could be reprimanded, dismissed, or lose your license for your behavior. If you were the hospital or state board, are you going to strip someone of their livelihood for going to strip clubs? If you are, then you're risking a lawsuit that you will certainly lose.

 

[njbmd]

The problem isn't really the strip club as it's a legal activity. The problem is the 4 to 5 drinks especially if he drives (BAC might be over the legal limit). If you are caught with a BAC over the legal limit there goes your licence and it's a b--ch to get it back. (I sit on that committee for the State Board of Medicine and we haven't reinstated a single license since I went on that committee). State medical boards are extremely serious about any substance abuse period.

Arriving late with this behavior is likely not good. The alcohol is the real problem here with this frequency coupled with being late. His absence and lateness may be for other reasons (car troubles etc) but coupled with 4 to 5 nights of drinking and clubbing, he may have a problem here.

You could make the argument that he could sit at home, watch strip movies and drink 4 or 5 drinks and still be late/miss shifts but that doesn't create a public impression unless he drives intoxicated. The problem is that unless he's 250 pounds or more, 4 or 5 drinks over a 4 or 5 hour period is going to get him over the legal driving limit. Being late and missing shifts are a problem for any reason except personal emergency/illness.

Believe it or not, there is a place on your license for comments about your "moral" character and professionalism from others. This is not the time to test this one out.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

The OP said:

.....He has occasionally missed a few shifts and shown up late......

So my point still stands, that that is and always will be considered unprofessional, whatever occupation it may be.

That's odd. The version of the OP's post which I can see has about 4 or 5 more sentences after that one, such as:

I maintained that his absence and tardiness were unprofessional and while they were caused by his off hours behavior, the behavior in and of itself was not unprofessional because he was keeping it private. In other words, if the student was frequenting a strip club and drinking, but otherwise made all of his shifts, and was not tardy, then it should not be an issue.

Is that on your internet as well?

 

[MossPoh]

You could make the argument that he could sit at home, watch strip movies and drink 4 or 5 drinks and still be late/miss shifts but that doesn't create a public impression unless he drives intoxicated. The problem is that unless he's 250 pounds or more, 4 or 5 drinks over a 4 or 5 hour period is going to get him over the legal driving limit. Being late and missing shifts are a problem for any reason except personal emergency/illness.

I was about to say 4 or 5 isn't THAT much, but then I realized I'm about 260 pounds and have an obnoxiously high tolerance that screwed up research experiences.

I don't care what anyone does in their spare time as long as it is within legal bounds. Showing up late just irritates the hell out of me though. Is one supposed to assume that the showing up late is tied to the going out, or could they just be independent events of douchebaggery?

 

[RegularNihilist]

So basically, being professional means being a boy scout. Why would anybody wanna be professional, then? The question isn't what is professional or legal, but what will get you into trouble, and whether it is worth the risk or not.

 

[AggieSean]

You're only making this an issue b/c of the strip club, there are plenty of med school kids that party it up and drink regularly and show up late. They are all unprofessional, don't single out this guy just because his sex life is pathetic and you don't approve.

Me = So Happy I never got off the waitlist at A&M.

Was that really necessary?

You're putting words in the OP's mouth. He's not singling him out, it's a presentation done every year for the M1s and the M2s. As long as it doesn't affect our performance (showing up drunk, being late, etc.) I don't see how it is any of the school's business what I do in my free time.

Some people have mentioned that they wouldn't go see a physician who frequents such establishments, and that is well within their right and we have to accept such as a consequence of our behavior. Similarly, there may be patients who would be offended at my regular attendance at church, or that I have the occasional beer when out at a restaurant, or whatever. I don't think it's possible for us to account for all of those possibilities in our private lives.

 

[AggieSean]

.

 

[njbmd]

Unfortunately as a physician, I can't do things that others are able to do (even legal things like frequenting strip clubs) because of professionalism. Again, because of my profession, I am held to a different standard. That's one of the (sic) "perks" of being in this profession.

To ignore the professionalism and do what you want as long as it's legal can get your hospital privileges removed, your license to practice medicine revoked and other things that will make your professional life difficult. Is it fair for physicians/medical students to be held to different standards than the rest of society? That's not something that I spend time worrying about or fighting about. In short, there are professional conduct standards for physicians and violating them can have repercussions in terms of your practice even if you are not doing anything illegal.

I can tell you that State medical boards, local medical societies and other professional organizations take this "professionalism" seriously. Medicine tends to be conservative (and in some case backward) but the thing "is what it is". If I was a member of the clergy, I would be held to different standards than the public at large.

When I elected to enter this profession, I knew what I was in for. If I couldn't meet the professionalism standards, then I would leave it. Certainly, there are other things out these that I could do where I wouldn't have to be as concerned about public scrutiny.

 

[RegularNihilist]

Are there any career options for docs not wanting to be bound by medical boards, both legal and illegal, that can prove economically beneficial? US and non-US? 😕

 

[penguin24]

Bottom line: going to strip clubs has nothing to do w/ professionalism. This should not even be part of the OP's question. This is simply a matter of alcohol abuse. The OP has the title of the tread "Strip clubs & professionalism", but the real problem is this guy's drinking. I think the title should be changed to "Alcohol abuse & professionalism"

Even if the med student was reading the bible while drinking, then shows up late for clerkships, it is unprofessional.

If a patient sees me at a strip club, I don't think he would care b/c he is at the club too. If somebody thinks strip clubs are immoral, they would never go, and so would never see me there. Simple as that. BTW, I don't go to strip clubs, this is a hypothetical scenario. Every girl on the stage dancing, you know, that's somebody's daughter, have you ever considered that?

 

[J ROD]

I am cool with the strip club. Not the best idea but you have to have a hobby!!

Drinking and missing work, etc. That's a problem!!

The only unprofessional thing I see is that his drinking is causing work "red flags". I think he should be in rehab....then get his own reality show on
VH1!!😀

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Believe it or not, there is a place on your license for comments about your "moral" character and professionalism from others.

I think you guys should really take note of this. Whether something should be or is (in your own view) professional or not is irrelevant when it comes down to anything other than the mental masturbation we do here on these internet forums. In the real world 'professionalism' is pretty ambiguous and can really be whatever people want it to be. You want to always be aware of your choices and the situations you put yourself into and how they might be viewed in a public light. One day you'll be sued, we all will. You were making it rain the night before the incident and, Murphy's Law holding true, the judge will be the most puritanical SOB in the state. Just sayin'

 

[KeyzerSoze]

If a patient sees me at a strip club, I don't think he would care b/c he is at the club too.

Except that patients have higher standards for their doctors than for themselves.

 

[unsung]

Except that patients have higher standards for their doctors than for themselves.

This. 👍

Ever consider why it's such hot news when say a celeb or politician is spotted somewhere seedy? Obviously not 'cuz the general populace does not frequent such establishments.

But if Obama were photographed getting a lap dance, obviously he would be decried.

Not to equate physicians with politicians or celebs... but you get the point.

 

[Knicks]

That's odd. The version of the OP's post which I can see has about 4 or 5 more sentences after that one, such as:



Is that on your internet as well?

Hey, I was reading/posting in the weeeee hours of the morning. 😴

Cut me some slack. 😳

 

[bcat85]

So we had a Lecture on professionalism and a case study was given that sparked some interesting discussion and I wanted to see what other people thought.

A M3 is a good student, maintains his work load, has made good grades, etc. He regularly (weekly) goes to a strip bar and drinks 4 or 5 nights a week. He has occasionally missed a few shifts and shown up late.

Is his behavior unprofessional, yes or no?

I maintained that his absence and tardiness were unprofessional and while they were caused by his off hours behavior, the behavior in and of itself was not unprofessional because he was keeping it private. In other words, if the student was frequenting a strip club and drinking, but otherwise made all of his shifts, and was not tardy, then it should not be an issue.

Your thoughts?

The tardiness is definitely unprofessional... but we're not priests..