Strong CP?

[Napoleon1801]

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Where are the strongest programs for CP training? (Yes, I know subjective, but I'm curious what the group thoughts are on the subject and why)

And, what aspects would constitute a "strong CP" experience?

 

[Doctor Zaius]

When a program tells you they have "strong CP," I take that to mean that your CP rotations will be fleshed out by lots of busy work and pointless presentations that will eat up a lot of your time and in the end generally have minimal educational value.

"Weak CP" means they send you off to read Henry's for a month on your CP rotations.

I would tend to prefer a program with "weak CP" because in the end you'll end up having to read Henry's and cram for boards anyways. And at least you can use your time on CP to read henry's, study for boards (better), or study surg path (best).

Strong heme is definitely an asset for a program, but other than that, I don't see "strong CP" as a selling point unless you're CP only for some reason.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I agree with the previous post re: strong vs weak CP. CP training sucks everywhere (with the exception of probably heme). Most of it could easily be completed in a year rather than 18 months. Not sure why I need to do 16 weeks of Micro to be "proficient." Really no amount of time will make me a master of medical microbiology. All you need is some exposure to how real life practice works and time to read-- and I would argue that that could be accomplished in 8 weeks. If a program tells you they have good CP, they are lying unless they say something like "you will have no call, you will have ample time to sit at the bench with the techs and learn something practical, plenty of time to read and prep for boards, and you won't be doing talks." Thats the place you want to be at.

 

[Sean2tall]

Surprisingly most programs told me that they realize that CP is usually weak and that everybody says, "Our CP is as strong as our AP," which is rarely true.

I was told that a few places actually are strong for CP - I think it was Minnesota? If you're interested in that.

Otherwise I agree with above that I would like to be well enough prepared for the CP issues that I encounter in my career, but I'm not sure if "giving presentations to the techs" is necessarily that helpful. It reminds me of applying to medical school, when I thought that volunteer clinics and interviewing fake patients were super cool. When the time came to do that stuff I was irritated because I needed to either get my work done or relax.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Otherwise I agree with above that I would like to be well enough prepared for the CP issues that I encounter in my career, but I'm not sure if "giving presentations to the techs" is necessarily that helpful. It reminds me of applying to medical school, when I thought that volunteer clinics and interviewing fake patients were super cool. When the time came to do that stuff I was irritated because I needed to either get my work done or relax.

You've hit the nail on the head. Most of the stuff that I deal with on a daily actually keeps me from learning anything, most notably send out test approvals. I like working with the clinical teams, but its a rarity with the exception of hem-onc that they actually ever come down to the lab-- some of the most fun that I had was when I was showing peripheral smears or bone marrows. I like being consulted, I just hate all the insignificant work that you are given so that you are made to look "busy."

I am definitely an advocate of a "CP in 12 months" curriculum.

 

[mlw03]

among the places i interviewed, i thought the strongest CP training was at U Washington and U New Mexico. at UWash it's because lab medicine is its own department with dedicated faculty and it just seemed to me that they took the CP training more serious than anyone else. UNM has the TriCore reference lab, which is an excellent resource. there i got the impression that most every test available can be done there, and that they are often involved in developing and studying new tests as well.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

among the places i interviewed, i thought the strongest CP training was at U Washington and U New Mexico. at UWash it's because lab medicine is its own department with dedicated faculty and it just seemed to me that they took the CP training more serious than anyone else. UNM has the TriCore reference lab, which is an excellent resource. there i got the impression that most every test available can be done there, and that they are often involved in developing and studying new tests as well.

What was nice at UW, for me anyway, was that they gave you a chance to actually learn some useful CP before you had any real responsibility via a lecture-based curriculum that they had set up for like 4-6 weeks at the start of your CP training. I could be mistaken re: the length though.

 

[clancy81]

among the places i interviewed, i thought the strongest CP training was at U Washington and U New Mexico. at UWash it's because lab medicine is its own department with dedicated faculty and it just seemed to me that they took the CP training more serious than anyone else. UNM has the TriCore reference lab, which is an excellent resource. there i got the impression that most every test available can be done there, and that they are often involved in developing and studying new tests as well.

I agree with mlw on this one. Of all the programs I went to, these two stood out to me as well. I believe the CP curriculum at UW was for ~10 weeks, and the residents seemed happy with it.

At UNM the residents told me they got a lot of time working with the techs at the bench at both the VA and TriCore. They also seemed to think the "CP Hotseat" rotation was very good because it allowed them to actually go to rounds with clinicians and spend time answering their questions. The TriCore facilities were the best I saw anywhere. Heme is also especially strong at UNM with Dr. Foucar being there. I was very impressed with CP at UNM.

 

[Doctor Zaius]

I agree with mlw on this one. Of all the programs I went to, these two stood out to me as well. I believe the CP curriculum at UW was for ~10 weeks, and the residents seemed happy with it.

At UNM the residents told me they got a lot of time working with the techs at the bench at both the VA and TriCore. They also seemed to think the "CP Hotseat" rotation was very good because it allowed them to actually go to rounds with clinicians and spend time answering their questions. The TriCore facilities were the best I saw anywhere. Heme is also especially strong at UNM with Dr. Foucar being there. I was very impressed with CP at UNM.

You probably won't appreciate this until you start residency, but
1) spending time working with techs gets old very very fast. And it won't teach you how to a direct a lab, it will teach you what to do if a tech calls in sick.
2) That reference lab is great, but guess who is going to be hunting down outside cliniclans and calling back critical values all over New Mexico in the middle of the night.
3) Rounding with clinicians is no fun once you get more than 6 months removed from med school. They really don't have that many questions for you and will mostly just stare at you and wonder what the hell pathology residents do all day if they have hours to spare to round with other services. They'll also laugh when you have to run off to report an urgent potassium value from your reference lab.

Seriously, you're better off reading Henry's in the library. Again, just my 2 cents. Learning heme from Foucar must be great though, I hear she's a very nice woman.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

1) spending time working with techs gets old very very fast. And it won't teach you how to a direct a lab, it will teach you what to do if a tech calls in sick.

At least from a micro standpoint, I've found it very helpful sitting at the bench a couple hours per morning seeing when and how they work up isolates. Its one of those practical things that you just cannot get from reading a book (at least any that I've read so far).

I would argue that the bulk of our training has nothing to do with preparing us for how to actually practice pathology in a community setting. I doubt that many residency programs in any field of medicine actually prepare you to "run" anything (a practice, a lab, etc). This isn't something unique to CP.

 

[docbiohazard]

From places I interviewed, definitely Penn and UWash... and another place or too that I'm having trouble remembering the details - possibly Emory. They have very strong faculty in molecular and transfusion medicine. I'd have to review my notes to be certain. Other applicants I know have said Yale has good CP, and possibly Utah (ARUP connection)... but those two are second hand info.

BH

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

In my opinion, strong CP meant a stuctured lecture schedule for each module, ample free time for reading, and a large enough laboratory to scratch any CP itch should it arise.

The best I interviewed at were Utah and New Mexico. However, I do wonder as has been previously mentioned, how much extra scut one would have to put up with as a result of going to such large laboratories.

Now that I'm actually a resident I look back upon all my interviews and feel quite foolish at the number of questions I asked about CP. I imagine the residents who answered me felt as I did when I lead undergraduates on medical school tours and they consistently asked questions about how much PBL was integrated into the curriculum. The fact remains that the information is there to be consumed and memorized and there is no system I know of that can magically put it in your head.

 

[jux]

CP is diverse, and programs are unlikely to be strong in all aspects. If you are interested in a specific area/fellowship, that could help your hunt. For what it's worth, I've also heard positive things about Yale of the programs I interviewed at. I would also look into places that offer CP-only through the match as they are likely to have an organized curriculum for these candidates.

If you're going to be a surgical pathologist and also want good CP training, don't sweat it too hard.

Also, I agree with this mostly from the previous poster:

"In my opinion, strong CP meant a stuctured lecture schedule for each module, ample free time for reading, and a large enough laboratory to scratch any CP itch should it arise."

 

[Sean2tall]

I imagine the residents who answered me felt as I did when I lead undergraduates on medical school tours and they consistently asked questions about how much PBL was integrated into the curriculum.

So true. I imagine this is hard to avoid at any stage of the system, despite how much you might be aware of it. Luckily our 3rd/4th year set up turned out to be decent, although I didn't ask a single question about it when applying.

Anyhow, for residency, I am trying focus a lot on organization of the surg path system, preview time and sign out in differentiating programs. Hopefully I will feel like that was reasonable in a few years, but maybe not.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

"In my opinion, strong CP meant a stuctured lecture schedule for each module, ample free time for reading, and a large enough laboratory to scratch any CP itch should it arise."

Well then, add UCSF to your list of "strong CP."

Our curriculum is structured with lecture-based didactics twice per week for 1.5 hrs, then supplemented with conferences put on by faculty at the different sites. These are all recorded using Camtasia and posted on our department's internal website so that residents can access them at anytime (if I wanted to review a lecture on leukemias that we had in September I could do that from the comfort of my couch right now). All the AP lectures (given Mon-Wed-Fri) are also posted on the site for use anytime.

Good amount of time to do some reading at the VA and SFGH, less so at Moffitt.

Obviously the research opportunities here go without saying. They are bringing up a lot of new molecular tests as well.

 

[docbiohazard]

These are all recorded using Camtasia and posted on our department's internal website so that residents can access them at anytime (if I wanted to review a lecture on leukemias that we had in September I could do that from the comfort of my couch right now). All the AP lectures (given Mon-Wed-Fri) are also posted on the site for use anytime.

I just wanted to add that this was one of the coolest didactic "fringe benefits" I saw at any institution. I definitely saw a few that had videoconferencing for their off-site (ie. VA) residents, but UCSF was the only place that had lectures recorded and available online for streaming. Very cool. 👍

BH

 

[cytoborg]

Well then, add UCSF to your list of "strong CP."

Our curriculum is structured with lecture-based didactics twice per week for 1.5 hrs, then supplemented with conferences put on by faculty at the different sites. These are all recorded using Camtasia and posted on our department's internal website so that residents can access them at anytime (if I wanted to review a lecture on leukemias that we had in September I could do that from the comfort of my couch right now). All the AP lectures (given Mon-Wed-Fri) are also posted on the site for use anytime.

Good amount of time to do some reading at the VA and SFGH, less so at Moffitt.

Obviously the research opportunities here go without saying. They are bringing up a lot of new molecular tests as well.

Yeah the camtasia is awesome. I tend to zone out during lecture so I go back and watch them at home frequently with the book open, can stop whenever I need to and rewind...definitely get more out of them that way.