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Student debt relief option: Instant gain, distant pain
Started by VET 2008
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Tl;dr
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Aw, you pre-vets are soooo cute and clever!
You'll wish you had read it when you're looking at your debt after four years of school. When someone takes the time to post something extremely relevant like this, and something currently being discussed at all levels of the profession, posts like this just display ignorance.
I'm just saying that wasn't the other post almost just like this??? I DID in fact read that. And it was stuff I already knew.
I think they are helpful but when its being posted twice in different formats, than that's annoying.
I think they are helpful but when its being posted twice in different formats, than that's annoying.
Then why the did you feel the need to make a snarky comment if it's stuff you already knew?
I'm sorry. Didn't mean it to sound snarky. It is extremely long though and I don't understand why the poster needed to put up two similar articles twice.
And what I MEANT is it's stuff I knew after reading the OPs other article. If that justifies anything. Sorry again for sounding snarky.
And what I MEANT is it's stuff I knew after reading the OPs other article. If that justifies anything. Sorry again for sounding snarky.
Aww, you vets are adorable speaking on behalf of one another and being condescending at the same time!!! How would us wee wittle premies get by without your sagely guidance. You clearly have quite a bit of time on your hands. Maybe you should try using it more productively than educating naive kids.
White House Offers Sneak Peak Its 10-Year Budget
Longer-Term Investments: Affordability programs for education, $140.8 billion for research and development, $476 billion for surface transportation, paid for largely with savings from winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and an infrastructure investment bank.
Hopefully there is something in there for professional students. I hope those that troll pre-vet message boards are also actively pressuring their representatives to push for and pass such legislation.
Longer-Term Investments: Affordability programs for education, $140.8 billion for research and development, $476 billion for surface transportation, paid for largely with savings from winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and an infrastructure investment bank.
Hopefully there is something in there for professional students. I hope those that troll pre-vet message boards are also actively pressuring their representatives to push for and pass such legislation.
On this same note, I didn't just wander into prevet with my head up my butt. I think this topic has been fairly discussed and that calling us ignorant is just harsh. I think anyone can look up an article about what vets owe and make and trying to "help" us by scaring is with some VIN article is unhelpful.
For me it's the context and the delivery. In another thread, the same poster was generously explaining to an applicant that received his or her 3rd rejection in so many years that they were wasting their time and should move on to something else. After all, he elucidated, veterinary medicine is a profession in GRAVE condition. Please... how timely of a service as so many of us are dealing with the application process after years of hard work.
I educate kids all the time. It's called my job. Some are more naive than others.
For those of you that already know everything, there may be others that don't and would appreciate the information. As someone who will probably do IBR, I found this article really enlightening. Now I know that I will have to save up for that tax payoff.
If you have nothing to be scared of financially, then this shouldn't bother you.
Or maybe it is just too scary for someone to rain on the parade a little?
If you have nothing to be scared of financially, then this shouldn't bother you.
Or maybe it is just too scary for someone to rain on the parade a little?
For me it's the context and the delivery. In another thread, the same poster was generously explaining to an applicant that received his or her 3rd rejection in so many years that they were wasting their time and should move on to something else. After all, he elucidated, veterinary medicine is a profession in GRAVE condition. Please... how timely of a service as so many of us are dealing with the application process after years of hard work.
I can agree with you on that count. I may be harsh in some of my posts on the subject, but I do not purposefully try to dissuade people from the profession.
No I don't know everything. I was just mildly annoyed that this poster keeps posting topics on new threads and doesn't respond to their own threads. It is an interesting topic but can't that OP do it in a more constructive manner? Like "debt advice articles".
But I was more annoyed by being called naive. I'm not all bright eyed and bushy tail about the prospect of being poor my whole life. But the OP keeps making this seem like the absolute worse decision of my life.
But I was more annoyed by being called naive. I'm not all bright eyed and bushy tail about the prospect of being poor my whole life. But the OP keeps making this seem like the absolute worse decision of my life.
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Was I speaking directly to you and calling you naive? No. My comment was with regards to the tl;dr business.
I will follow your lead with mutual civility and apologize for my sarcastic tone. I am sure we all want the same thing and I look forward to calling you a peer someday in the not-to-distant-future. Have a great weekend. I'm goin' to go celebrate my application successes now.
Well I was more annoyed that vet 2008 had yet to put out another article about student debt without really responding to others. I AM quite worried about student debt. But journal article after journal article (which this one went on and on) in one day takes its toll. Again I really meant it was too long. And I didn't read it.
I will follow your lead with mutual civility and apologize for my sarcastic tone. I am sure we all want the same thing and I look forward to calling you a peer someday in the not-to-distant-future. Have a great weekend. I'm goin' to go celebrate my application successes now.
I'm going to follow AugustWest's footsteps. I'm make a lousy lion and be best a mouse. At least this took my mind off Davis. Enjoy your weekend WTF. No hard feelings.
I will follow your lead with mutual civility and apologize for my sarcastic tone. I am sure we all want the same thing and I look forward to calling you a peer someday in the not-to-distant-future. Have a great weekend. I'm goin' to go celebrate my application successes now.
Sounds good. I tip my hat in congenial apology to both of you as well. This topic can be very heated, and yes, I go get supremely annoyed, perhaps overly so, when I hear things that sound dismissive from the very people that I would like to call colleagues someday. Some of it is due to my own situation, the rest comes from all of the fourth years I teach, hearing constantly about their debt problems and difficulty finding jobs. When you are surrounded by it, you take it seriously, perhaps overly so. Now, back to eating my Ramen in my cardboard box 😉 Weekend? Poo, I am on call this weekend. Call the interns and tell them not to let anything die. I want to sleep in
The way I see it is we all have to get jobs at some point and I feel like anything worth doing isn't easy. I think most individuals going into vet med are aware of the job market and the rising costs of tuition...you'd have to be staring at the ceiling or completely clueless to miss that purple-polka dot 3-legged elephant juggling flaming batons in the room. The fact is that the job market is poor all the way around. Sure some fields are easier to get into than others, but in general available jobs in all fields are significantly limited at the moment.
I appreciate that you are trying to come here and educate pre-vets about the horrible job market and costs associated with vet med, but that its a little bit like commenting that the sky is blue or that oxygen and water are necessary for life.
I appreciate that you are trying to come here and educate pre-vets about the horrible job market and costs associated with vet med, but that its a little bit like commenting that the sky is blue or that oxygen and water are necessary for life.
Hey WTF, thought of you when I was talking to the head of pathology (or some such title) at Penn. He said that 4 years ago there were 10 job offers for every 1 pathology resident graduating. This past year there was 1 job offer for every graduate. In this case, it is the pharmaceuticals who used to poach a lot of the path grads. I think that isn't so bad for you, since pharmaceuticals are not likely to be in a LT funk, so they will probably start sopping up path residents soon (even if you don't want to work for big pharma, it helps supply / demand).Sounds good. I tip my hat in congenial apology to both of you as well. This topic can be very heated, and yes, I go get supremely annoyed, perhaps overly so, when I hear things that sound dismissive from the very people that I would like to call colleagues someday. Some of it is due to my own situation, the rest comes from all of the fourth years I teach, hearing constantly about their debt problems and difficulty finding jobs. When you are surrounded by it, you take it seriously, perhaps overly so. Now, back to eating my Ramen in my cardboard box 😉 Weekend? Poo, I am on call this weekend. Call the interns and tell them not to let anything die. I want to sleep in
I am sure you have heard this all already, but hey WTF, WTF.
I never call you naive either. Not everyone out there is as well versed about vet med as you are. A lot of people look at these sites and they are all starting with a different knowledge base.
I was definitely cranky when I responded to the reapplicant and could have been more diplomatic. However, I do think she should think about other career options that will make her happy.
But do you know people aren't getting jobs? They are unemployed or they are doing very intermittent relief work, working at the Gap or Eddie Bauer, in their previous careers or working as vet techs? These are real examples.
True, MANY areas are affected right now, but if you would be happy in another field, perhaps one that is more stable, you might want to consider that field. No everyone who goes to vet school is interested in only vet med.
they were all different and had different information so I thought it was relevant.
Also sorry I can't respond right away although I have posted everyday.
I find this interesting because this isn't what I am seeing. Maybe Penn grads do better? Are they required to do a PhD as well? Most pharm companies want tox path experience and a PhD before they hire so they don't often hire straight out of a residency. Maybe I am wrong though. Would love to hear more if anyone knows more.
Fair enough. As I only thought this present article was a doom and gloom about IBR I didn't read it. I will in the future, just not right after the other doom and gloom article.
As a 4th year, I can tell you that jobs and money will be the main thing on your mind this time of 4th year. As far away as it seems as a pre-vet or years 1-3, it's a huge and daunting part of your reality in 4th year. All those loans that you took out feel crushing as you realize you may have no way to pay them back, or live a comfortable life. I've witnessed a few meltdowns re: jobs lately.
I know that most everyone goes in well educated about the debt load. But until you see what it does to your friends and colleagues, watching them grow scared and even desperate for a job in 4th year, it seems easy to compartmentalize as something to deal with in the future.
It's just one of those things where knowing about it and experiencing it are a little different. I'm not trying to scare anyone, and I don't think any upper classmen are. We're just in the trenches right now and want to let people know what the war is really like before you sign up 🙂
And since things are in the gloom and doom direction, here are some happy stories.
Many people got matched to their internships this week! Classmates are going all over the country in the next year.
One of my friends was offered a job in the clinic he's worked at for years (helps to have connections!) He was also offered the option of buying the practice in 2-3 years as the owner retires. Congrats to him!
Another classmate is relocating to a different state. She took a week off, passed out a ton a resumes, got almost solidly all "we're not hiring right now." She did get an interview at one large clinic and was offered a job this week. She'll be making a base of 60k with production on top of that as she gets faster in a few months.
I got a job offer (also at a clinic I used to work at) but I'm turning it down for much needed time off and relocation to a different state. I got my best friend an interview there next week. Unfortunately, other than that she only has 1 other job prospect. So I'm hoping it works out.
The job market is very bad, but not hopeless. Going in, you should know what you may very well graduate without any job offers and large chunk of debt. I think many people understand the debt, but are less well informed about the potential difficulties of finding a job.
I'm getting tired of the doom and gloom, but mostly because I'm in it now, and I'm definitely not turning back partway through and $18k in debt with nothing to show for it. I hope I can get a residency in 3 1/2 years, and I will do everything I can to make connections and present myself as an ideal applicant. If that works out, I will enter the job market in 6 1/2 years... hopefully some things may have stabilized by then. If not, hopefully I am specialized enough that someone wants me for a role somewhere - big pharma, diagnostic services, I dun care. Or I may seek a PhD too, which means that there are nearly 10 years for the economy to turn around a bit... who knows, who knows. But I plod along. At least I know that $60k debt can be paid off while making closer to $40k a year without going into the point where it's impossible (just unpleasant).
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http://www.indeed.com/q-Veterinarian-l-California-jobs.html
I am seeing ample open positions for veterinarians from this site alone being listed even in just the last month. Yet, many on here are portraying the job market to be extremely bleak. How do you reconcile such a disconnect? Is the problem more region-specific?
You don't know much about the job market.
There are millions of jobs advertised, why doesn't everyone get a job?
The most important indicator of a job market is not how many jobs are advertised, but how many applicants there are for each job listed. Most larger companies are required by policy to place an ad.
In addition, most of these positions have experience requirements (3 years or more for several) or are only part-time (at least 2 listed),
Out of 10 listings on the first page for example there I believe 2 are for full time vets with little experience. And I guarantee you they are getting a lot more than 2 applicants.
Perhaps because there are 13 million unemployed candidates. And most will not be qualified for the jobs you are referring to?
I have no way of knowing how many applicants there are for each of these job listings. Although I agree that such statistics would make for an important indicator of the market.
It's just one website. And after going through many of these listings, I would agree and disagree. Lots of corporate ads for Banfield and VCA. But many that are not. For new grads and more experienced professionals alike. Just curious about what the job market is really like for veterinarians after reading some pretty sobering articles. thanks.
I checked several job listings sites that are frequented by veterinary hospitals and veterinarians when I was looking for jobs last year. The most popular site is avma.org/jobs. Nationwide, there are currently 307 jobs on that site for veterinarians (not vet techs or hospital managers). You have to choose a state to get licensed in when you take the NAVLE (or states). I chose 2 states to look in and there were less than 10 jobs available. Every single job I applied for last year had AT LEAST 10 applicants. I broadened my scope to include the midwest and was still disappointed. Many had more experience than I did (I was not just competing against new grads). Some had upwards of 50 applicants.
When I last checked, at least 10-20% of my class now works for Banfield - because they are hiring and they are very accepting of new grads. Some classmates that found private practices are very unhappy - many of these jobs were open for a reason.
Hopefully that gives you some numbers.
I don't feel the need to start an entire new thread to post this article, but it's content does support my perspective on how this issue is not as black and white as some seem to be making it out to be:
Labor Department maintains rosy outlook for veterinarians
February 1, 2012
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service
Job projections released today by government analysts place veterinarians on a list of 30 occupations in America expected to enjoy the highest rate of growth over the decade to 2020 — an assessment that contradicts the observations and experiences of many practitioners and raises eyebrows among leaders of the profession.
The new projections by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics are similar to the agency's last job forecast for veterinarians developed in 2008, which predicted a 33 percent increase in employment from 2008 to 2018. That forecast led to the frequently cited conclusion that "excellent job opportunities are expected."
The article goes on to provide reactions and comments from both sides of the discussion, including those that see a shrinking market with decreasing salaries as well.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=21389
Labor Department maintains rosy outlook for veterinarians
February 1, 2012
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service
Job projections released today by government analysts place veterinarians on a list of 30 occupations in America expected to enjoy the highest rate of growth over the decade to 2020 — an assessment that contradicts the observations and experiences of many practitioners and raises eyebrows among leaders of the profession.
The new projections by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics are similar to the agency's last job forecast for veterinarians developed in 2008, which predicted a 33 percent increase in employment from 2008 to 2018. That forecast led to the frequently cited conclusion that "excellent job opportunities are expected."
The article goes on to provide reactions and comments from both sides of the discussion, including those that see a shrinking market with decreasing salaries as well.
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=21389
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Thanks for the feedback. Is it possible that the market varies substantially from one region to the next? Did you happen to look at opportunities in California, or limited your search to the two states mentioned above? Assuming one was Florida, what was the other?
I originally limited my search to Florida and Georgia (states I had licenses in). I then broadened my search to include pretty much everywhere but CA. Their cost of living (in areas I saw jobs) is way too high. I made phone calls and sent my resume at least once a day while I was actively job searching. There were a total of 400 vet jobs available at that time on the AVMA's job site. I checked Vin's, too, but that has even less and most overlap.
Hypothetically, let's say you can't find a job in the states you are licensed in, and you decide to look elsewhere, how long would it take to get licensed in another state?
Depends on the state. Each state typically has a laws and rules test or mini quiz or something that you have to have in addition to the NAVLE. For some states, its not a challenge. Other states that is not the case - FL for instance. Many vets I spoke to had to retake their tests. That can take time to take the test and then get the results/license. Also, you have to send transcripts out to the state. It typically takes a couple of weeks to a month, but can take longer.
Sweet.
Two threads about the exact same thing. It will fit in nicely with the 15 other threads in the top two pages.
I'm assuming the extra content is because this topic has not been adequately discussed in the past 2 years.
Luckily, this incarnation of the thread has extra condescension.
Two threads about the exact same thing. It will fit in nicely with the 15 other threads in the top two pages.
I'm assuming the extra content is because this topic has not been adequately discussed in the past 2 years.
Luckily, this incarnation of the thread has extra condescension.
Would you be willing to share any information on how long it took you to land the job you currently have and what the process of securing this job entailed? There seems to be a pretty large disconnect between the experiences of actual graduating vet students and the rosy growth picture that the media purports regarding the future of the profession. Most of the latter sounds something along the lines of this:
Career Outlook:
Employment opportunities for veterinarians should be excellent over the next decade. The U.S. Department of Labor expects an increase of 21% - 35% in the number of job openings through the year 2012. The need to replace veterinarians who retire or leave the profession for other reasons will create as many jobs as the overall growth in the job market. Pet owners are also becoming more aware of advanced care, such as preventative dental care and intensive care, and are more willing to take advantage of such nontraditional services. The largest growth in the job market will be for small animals and household pets because the demand for large animal veterinarians has declined over the past several years.
http://www.mshealthcareers.com/careers/veterinarian.htm
How can two such immensely polarized perspectives be founded in reality?
Actually I think Dyachei is providing some interesting color from the "front lines".
Me, yes I am guilty of condescension. Mea Culpa.
Yeah I know they each require a test, I just wasn't sure whether it took 6 months or 1. Thanks! I had a friend that failed the NAVLE and she had to wait another 6 months until it was offered again. 🙁
Agreed. dsmoody seems to suffer from a compulsory behavior syndrome. He could not resist clicking on the thread even though it offended his delicate sensibilities and there are countless others that should have suited his propensities just fine.
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And yet you and I could not resist clicking and contributing...
I've been good.
I didn't touch any of the other 14.
Not even the one with this:
It took me from about October through to the end of April to land a job. I had multiple interviews with many places (at least a phone interview at most).
If you fail the NAVLE, you have to wait a few months to take it again, so thats different.
Your sentiments are safe in here, my friend. No way Chickenlittle and her Fendi handbag find you in here. 😀
Agreed. dsmoody seems to suffer from a compulsory behavior syndrome. He could not resist clicking on the thread even though it offended his delicate sensibilities and there are countless others that should have suited his propensities just fine.
You're a perfect fit for this conversation.
