Student debt relief option: Instant gain, distant pain

[dyachei]

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As to what it actually took:
I applied to at least 1 job a day before I took boards in Nov (I chose one of the earlier slots to get it out of the way). After that, I stepped up my game and applied to at least 3-4 jobs if available. I applied to jobs pretty much everywhere. I even applied to jobs that were looking for people with more than a year of experience in hopes that I could talk them into taking a new grad. I really broadened my search outside of GA and FL pretty quickly - those two were my top because I would have family nearby (or my husband's family). I would check my e-mail at every chance so that if there were any replies or queries from interviewers, I could make sure to get back to them promptly. A lot of jobs set up phone interviews. I asked many of them how many applicants there were (which is how I'm able to give you that info).

I did not receive one interview in person - well, actually, I did. But they must have gone with someone else because they didn't return my phone calls when I tried to set it up with them as requested.

By the time the end of Feb rolled around, I was getting desperate and applied with a veterinary job placement agency. I repeatedly told them I ideally wanted GA or FL but was willing to move ANYWHERE. They were unable to place me - and actually had a very limited selection of jobs as well. I then turned to corporate medicine - and have since found a job with Banfield. I interviewed over the phone in January, had an in person interview in February but didn't actually land the job until almost May. Other friends of mine turned down jobs with this particular corporation because of their reputation - they were afraid that if they tried to find a job in a private practice, they would be turned down.

 

[psilovethomas]

So, I understand the point of these threads, but in reality, what is the actual point? Now I am contemplating whether or not I should go to vet school this fall. Med school looks more and more appealing everyday. Maybe I should go buy an MCAT prep book..

 

[dyachei]

So, I understand the point of these threads, but in reality, what is the actual point? Now I am contemplating whether or not I should go to vet school this fall. Med school looks more and more appealing everyday. Maybe I should go buy an MCAT prep book..

The better informed you are, the better your decisions are. It's up to you if this is something you can live with or not. When I was applying to vet school, we didn't get this kind of information. All I had heard was that it was harder to get into than med school and that there was always demand.

 

[twelvetigers]

The better informed you are, the better your decisions are. It's up to you if this is something you can live with or not. When I was applying to vet school, we didn't get this kind of information. All I had heard was that it was harder to get into than med school and that there was always demand.

At that point, that was the truth. Who could have seen the economy crapfest coming? I'm not sure anyone did - at least not to this extent.

It sucks.

 

[dyachei]

At that point, that was the truth. Who could have seen the economy crapfest coming? I'm not sure anyone did - at least not to this extent.

It sucks.

I'm sure it was. But there wasn't very much information to be found on the subject. Everyone pretty much said not to worry about that part of it.

 

[August West]

So, I understand the point of these threads, but in reality, what is the actual point? Now I am contemplating whether or not I should go to vet school this fall. Med school looks more and more appealing everyday. Maybe I should go buy an MCAT prep book..

I plan on building my own practice upon graduation and funding it with advertising revenue from the reality show documenting my endeavors. Your mileage from my situation may vary...

 

[VET 2008]

http://www.indeed.com/q-Veterinarian-l-California-jobs.html

I am seeing ample open positions for veterinarians from this site alone being listed even in just the last month. Yet, many on here are portraying the job market to be extremely bleak. How do you reconcile such a disconnect? Is the problem more region-specific?

There are more vets looking for jobs than there are jobs. There is probably some location issues with some areas being better or worse off.

 

[lailanni]

Also keep in mind you'll have to shell out some cash to become licensed in a state. (Not all states, but the ones I've looked at are from $150 to $400 dollars).

 

[August West]

There are more vets looking for jobs than there are jobs. There is probably some location issues with some areas being better or worse off.

And employment opportunities will surely increase if and when the economy stabilizes and improves.

"What people have to keep in mind is that, although the current job situation might not be that favorable, these are 10-year forecasts. We're not saying that there's going to be a healthy demand for veterinarians every year for 10 years," he said. "... We're anticipating a bounce back (in the greater economy) over the next half-decade to decade, and veterinarians will benefit from that."

Kasper noted that occupational employment surveys conducted by the Labor Department show that wage-paying jobs for veterinarians (not including positions held by self-employed practitioners) did not decline and usually increased in every year from 2002 to 2010, right through the recession.

"They did not take a hit," Kasper said. "These are actual positions. So based on historical trends, we are expecting that over the next decade, (jobs for) veterinarians will continue to grow at a very similar rate as in the past decade."

Jobs held by self-employed veterinarians are assessed through a different survey and are included in the Bureau of Labor Statistics' tally of total number of jobs filled by veterinarians, which came to 61,400 in 2010. The bureau projects the number of jobs to reach 83,400 in 2020, an increase of 35.9 percent.

Another source that suggested to labor analysts that veterinary medicine will enjoy a robust future was information from the American Pet Products Association on consumer expenditures on pets, which includes veterinary services.

"If you look at the expenditures through the recession (2007 through 2009), it has increased consistently every year," Kasper said. "... You cannot say the same about retail sales. ... That, to me, shows that even during hard times, people are still going to spend money on their pets."

.........................................

Also, job projections in a given occupation are measured relative to other occupations. So veterinarians may feel that they've taken a blow in recent years, but they've done well compared with other lines of work, Kasper said: "Veterinarians relative to many other occupations, particularly those in housing ... have taken nowhere near as bad a hit."

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=21389

 

[VET 2008]

I don't feel the need to start an entire new thread to post this article, but it's content does support my perspective on how this issue is not as black and white as some seem to be making it out to be:

Labor Department maintains rosy outlook for veterinarians

February 1, 2012
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service

Job projections released today by government analysts place veterinarians on a list of 30 occupations in America expected to enjoy the highest rate of growth over the decade to 2020 — an assessment that contradicts the observations and experiences of many practitioners and raises eyebrows among leaders of the profession.

The new projections by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics are similar to the agency’s last job forecast for veterinarians developed in 2008, which predicted a 33 percent increase in employment from 2008 to 2018. That forecast led to the frequently cited conclusion that “excellent job opportunities are expected.”

The article goes on to provide reactions and comments from both sides of the discussion, including those that see a shrinking market with decreasing salaries as well.

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=21389

Unfortunately, these forecasts are from 2008. According to the 2008 forecast, 2013 was suppose to be the peak demand for vet pathologists but there is no way that is going to happen. They couldn't predict the recession would last so long and impact vet med so much. I agree, things might get better; however, I am very worried because I see articles about new vet schools (Utah, Tennessee) and class sizes are already increasing.

 

[VET 2008]

Actually I think Dyachei is providing some interesting color from the "front lines".

Me, yes I am guilty of condescension. Mea Culpa.

Me too! Thanks Dyachei!!!

 

[August West]

Unfortunately, these forecasts are from 2008.

Actually, according to the article, they are new projections from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

 

[VET 2008]

Actually, according to the article, they are new projections from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Let's hope it gets better then and hope that the increase in class size won't eat up all the jobs. All I know is that the class of 2011 has a very high unemployment rate, I have friends with experience who can't find jobs, I can't find a job and that the class of 2012 is worried. Slowly, the economy has been turning around. I just need to be more patient.

 

[VET 2008]

Actually, according to the article, they are new projections from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

OK, so they are from 2009. But still lets hope things get better.

 

[August West]

Let's hope it gets better then and hope that the increase in class size won't eat up all the jobs. All I know is that the class of 2011 has a very high unemployment rate, I have friends with experience who can't find jobs, I can't find a job and that the class of 2012 is worried. Slowly, the economy has been turning around. I just need to be more patient.

The increased class sizes and even more so, the mounting debt ratios, concern me as well. We need to keep presenting our case to the government arguing that veterinarians provide an indispensable service to the community and that the current financial formulation is not sustainable. I still can't believe that they removed subsidized federal loans for professional students in the middle of a recession. If we do not advocate on our behalf, no one else will do it for us. Keep spreading awareness of these issues and apply pressure to those that can help alleviate such burdens. And like you said, lets hope the economy continues to improve. Particularly in time for me to graduate, break ground and begin construction on my reality-tv funded multi-million dollar practice. 😀

 

[chickenlittle]

Your sentiments are safe in here, my friend. No way Chickenlittle and her Fendi handbag find you in here. 😀

Hate to let you down, but I wouldn't know a Fendi handbag if it hit me in the face.... I imagine it must be something expensive, but I wouldn't know because I'm currently carrying a Fossil purse bought several years ago at Ross for about twenty bucks. So sorry to disappoint.

 

[August West]

OK, so they are from 2009. But still lets hope things get better.

I do not see where you are getting that these projections are several years old:

February 1, 2012
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service

Job projections released today by government analysts place veterinarians on a list of 30 occupations in America expected to enjoy the highest rate of growth over the decade to 2020 — an assessment that contradicts the observations and experiences of many practitioners and raises eyebrows among leaders of the profession.

 

[August West]

Hate to let you down, but I wouldn't know a Fendi handbag if it hit me in the face.... I imagine it must be something expensive, but I wouldn't know because I'm currently carrying a Fossil purse bought several years ago at Ross for about twenty bucks. So sorry to disappoint.

I was being sarcastic in response to dsmoody's comment. I found his or her behavior to be a bit comical and felt that it warranted such a response. Sorry if that was unclear.

 

[chickenlittle]

I was being sarcastic in response to dsmoody's comment. I found his or her behavior to be a bit comical and felt that it warranted such a response. Sorry if that was unclear.

Gotcha... sorry about that. I learned a long time ago to ignore anything posted by dsmoody, but assumed that perhaps he had found a partner in his hateful snarkiness. Apologies if that was an incorrect assumption 🙂

 

[VET 2008]

I do not see where you are getting that these projections are several years old:

February 1, 2012
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service

Job projections released today by government analysts place veterinarians on a list of 30 occupations in America expected to enjoy the highest rate of growth over the decade to 2020 — an assessment that contradicts the observations and experiences of many practitioners and raises eyebrows among leaders of the profession.

Got it! I read it quickly and missed that is said the projections were similar to 2008 forecast and then I clicked on the link which was last updated in 2009. Thanks!!!!!

 

[Dsmoody23]

Gotcha... sorry about that. I learned a long time ago to ignore anything posted by dsmoody, but assumed that perhaps he had found a partner in his hateful snarkiness. Apologies if that was an incorrect assumption 🙂

I know, right?

The hate and the snark just seem to boil out with wild abandon. Sometimes it's hard to get through the day without kicking a homeless person to death or stealing multiple sclerosis collection jars off the counters of convenience stores.

But my original question remains.

We have mods that police the forum for duplicate topics, swooping down like hawks on redundant topics and posters who fail to use the search function to identify an already existing topic of discussion. Just curious why this topic receives a pass when it shows up in one of it's endless, identical permutations?

 

[twelvetigers]

Mods don't police similar topics, they police duplicate posts. And spam, and medical advice, and inappropriate comments or behavior. Otherwise, they don't touch it. It's not their job to interpret what sort of content is or isn't acceptable (outside of the aforementioned things) and delete or police threads...

 

[Dsmoody23]

Mods don't police similar topics, they police duplicate posts. And spam, and medical advice, and inappropriate comments or behavior. Otherwise, they don't touch it. It's not their job to interpret what sort of content is or isn't acceptable (outside of the aforementioned things) and delete or police threads...

Two topics, with the same content, by the same poster, on the the same day.

Doom and gloom dividing by mitosis.

 

[breenie]

Two topics, with the same content, by the same poster, on the the same day.

Doom and gloom dividing by mitosis.

Well at least it's not making gametes.

 

[August West]

Two topics, with the same content, by the same poster, on the the same day.

Doom and gloom dividing by mitosis.

You really want to promote increased moderation? There are many other alternatives one might embrace to counter what you characterize as excessive. I choose to respond by offering evidence of a less bleak future for the veterinary profession and by suggesting ideas for proactive ways we might combat some of the challenges we face. I could also create additional threads full of sunshine and singing birds, stories of lives saved and rescued pups and kitties I've fostered to help dilute all negativity if that is the message I feel inclined to convey. Or perhaps another reasonable alternative would be to neither read nor contribute to the two threads that you deem unnecessary. There are countless other topics available for discussion. I still don't understand what your criticism of chickenlittle's comment was about nor do I comprehend your inability to simply ignore these types of threads if you find them so unpleasant and excessive. Yet, I still believe there are more pragmatic and effective solutions than increased moderation. In fact, every time someone responds within this thread it gets bounced back to the top of the list, effectively promoting what it is about. If no one cares about its content, the post would sink to the bottom and slide down the drain. You, my friend, are like a plunger, rescuing what you deem as a turdly message back to the surface of the bowl. 🙄

 

[Dsmoody23]

You really want to promote increased moderation? There are many other alternatives one might embrace to counter what you characterize as excessive. I choose to respond by offering evidence of a less bleak future for the veterinary profession and by suggesting ideas for proactive ways we might combat some of the challenges we face. I could also create additional threads full of sunshine and singing birds, stories of lives saved and rescued pups and kitties I've fostered to help dilute all negativity if that is the message I feel inclined to convey. Or perhaps another reasonable alternative would be to neither read nor contribute to the two threads that you deem unnecessary. There are countless other topics available for discussion. I still don't understand what your criticism of chickenlittle's comment was about nor do I comprehend your inability to simply ignore these types of threads if you find them so unpleasant and excessive. Yet, I still believe there are more pragmatic and effective solutions than increased moderation. In fact, every time someone responds within this thread it gets bounced back to the top of the list, effectively promoting what it is about. If no one cares about its content, the post would sink to the bottom and slide down the drain. You, my friend, are like a plunger, rescuing what you deem as a turdly message back to the surface of the bowl. 🙄

Yep. Wouldn't want to disturb the acoustics of the echo chamber.

These threads irritate me for the same reason they did last year, and all the times in between. So I'll use the same words.

"The undergrads here, hopefully, can add up the debt and cross reference it with the starting salaries. As a result of all the 'chicken little' hyperbole, you guys are doing a pretty grave disservice to (newly interested or) marginally committed prospective students. And you're bumming everyone else out. "

I added the post from chickenlittle in the other thread because it's an itemized break down of how a working vet spends a 103,000 dollar salary. The woman spends more on groceries than the average American takes home in a weekly paycheck. The debt to income ratio is working out OK in that situation, and seems like evidence for the opposite of the doom and gloom mindset.

Every month or two, we get a disgruntled vet, with an anonymous name like "IAMVET," or "VET1921" posting a new alarming article from VIN. Then someone, like you, posts actual labor department statistics. Then the discussion devolves into round-robin idiocy.

There needs to be push-back, because the kids come here (the freshman bio majors and the kids exploring their options,) and they see the thread count and leave with a bad taste in their mouth from misrepresented or inflated data and opinion. Happy vets, with good jobs and a decent financial situation, don't come here posting about it.

The doom and gloom has a very real, almost entirely unrepresented, counterpoint that isn't expressed here.

 

[August West]

Yep. Wouldn't want to disturb the acoustics of the echo chamber.

These threads irritate me for the same reason they did last year, and all the times in between. So I'll use the same words.

"The undergrads here, hopefully, can add up the debt and cross reference it with the starting salaries. As a result of all the 'chicken little' hyperbole, you guys are going a pretty grave disservice to (newly interested or) marginally committed prospective students. And you're bumming everyone else out. "

I added the post from chickenlittle in the other thread because it's an itemized break down of how a working vet spends a 103,000 dollar salary. The woman spends more on groceries than the average American takes home in a weekly paycheck. The debt to income ratio is working out OK in that situation, and seems like evidence for the opposite of the doom and gloom mindset.

Every month or two, we get a disgruntled vet, with an anonymous name like "IAMVET," or "VET1921" posting a new alarming article from VIN. Then someone, like you, posts actual labor department statistics. Then the discussion devolves into round-robin idiocy.

Thank you for the explanation. And I agree with much, if not all, of what you are saying. At the same time, I was not able to extract these ideas from your pithy, sarcastic posts. One of the drawbacks of message boards is the lack of context that accompanies such comments. Just another reason why we should try to restrict our arguments to more objective responses rather than getting bogged down in personal attacks, snark and hyperbole. I am very much guilty of disregarding my own advice and recently received a reprimanding from the board moderators for my intellectually lazy approach to discussion. 😉

 

[Dsmoody23]

Thank you for the explanation. And I agree with much, if not all, of what you are saying. At the same time, I was not able to extract these ideas from your pithy, sarcastic posts. One of the drawbacks of message boards is the lack of context that accompanies such comments. Just another reason why we should try to restrict our arguments to more objective responses rather than getting bogged down in personal attacks, snark and hyperbole. I am very much guilty of disregarding my own advice and recently received a reprimanding from the board moderators for my intellectually lazy approach to discussion. 😉

Objectivity ran out after the first 5 threads. There was a lot of very reasonable discussion about this issue when it first started popping up regularly.

The overwhelming consensus among pre-vets here was that we were scared enough already. The mistaken impression that everyone on this board was a naive 'rainbows and kittens' jacka*ss was dispelled in those threads.

When a 19 year old sophomore is quoting the labor department stats and presenting a complex, nuanced understanding of the debt issue, in the face of a practicing vet telling her she's going to be living in her car until she dies of scurvy, it makes you wonder if the vets who choose to post here are a real representation of the professional community.

As for trying to constantly remaining objective and avoiding snark, I try and maintain a 50/50 balance. Most of us come here for fun too. Every post doesn't need to be a perfect intellectual construct devoid of any humor or sarcasm. And I've also noticed that the folks who complain most about the tone of the forum are usually the first to go for the ad hominem in the shrillest voice possible.

 

[ursulamajor]

Did you happen to look at opportunities in California, or limited your search to the two states mentioned above? Assuming one was Florida, what was the other?

As a new graduate, I hunted for jobs in California (and Oregon and Washington) this year. After applying to all posted jobs on the AVMA career website, the CVMA, OVMA and WVMA websites that fit my skill level and didn't have any glaring red flags, I got very little interest. I heard that job postings in Northern California were getting 40 resumes in response to each ad. As a new graduate, it's hard to compete with experienced vets for jobs.

I changed tactics and I sent out 274 resumes and cover letters to almost every practice in the Bay Area. That yielded a great place that was interested, but didn't have any open positions. I volunteered there for quite awhile to keep learning new skills and keep my knowledge fresh. I had a couple of other places that were marginally interested but had only relief positions or were not a great fit (standard of care issues, mainly) so I didn't go out of my way to pursue them.

Then, just as I was about to give up on the Bay Area, I found a great job in the city. I need to emphasize that what I consider a great place to work would not be a good fit for everyone. For instance, the place I volunteered at was in the far reaches of the Bay Area in a town with a reputation (and not a good one), but was a well-equipped, newly-built clinic with clients who would do most things the vets recommended for their pets.

The employment whole process took several months (after graduation). A very nerve-wracking time.

Some of my classmates ended up scrambling into internships because they weren't able to find a job.

 

[August West]

Objectivity ran out after the first 5 threads. There was a lot of very reasonable discussion about this issue when it first started popping up regularly.

The overwhelming consensus among pre-vets here was that we were scared enough already. The mistaken impression that everyone on this board was a naive 'rainbows and kittens' jacka*ss was dispelled in those threads.

When a 19 year old sophomore is quoting the labor department stats and presenting a complex, nuanced understanding of the debt issue, in the face of a practicing vet telling her she's going to be living in her car until she dies of scurvy, it makes you wonder if the vets who choose to post here are a real representation of the professional community.

As for trying to constantly remaining objective and avoiding snark, I try and maintain a 50/50 balance. Most of us come here for fun too. Every post doesn't need to be a perfect intellectual construct devoid of any humor or sarcasm. And I've also noticed that the folks who complain most about the tone of the forum are usually the first to go for the ad hominem in the shrillest voice possible.

If I just use the provided emoticons going forward, I am confident that I can stay out of the penalty box.

 

[August West]

As a new graduate, I hunted for jobs in California (and Oregon and Washington) this year. After applying to all posted jobs on the AVMA career website, the CVMA, OVMA and WVMA websites that fit my skill level and didn't have any glaring red flags, I got very little interest. I heard that job postings in Northern California were getting 40 resumes in response to each ad. As a new graduate, it's hard to compete with experienced vets for jobs.

I changed tactics and I sent out 274 resumes and cover letters to almost every practice in the Bay Area. That yielded a great place that was interested, but didn't have any open positions. I volunteered there for quite awhile to keep learning new skills and keep my knowledge fresh. I had a couple of other places that were marginally interested but had only relief positions or were not a great fit (standard of care issues, mainly) so I didn't go out of my way to pursue them.

Then, just as I was about to give up on the Bay Area, I found a great job in the city. I need to emphasize that what I consider a great place to work would not be a good fit for everyone. For instance, the place I volunteered at was in the far reaches of the Bay Area in a town with a reputation (and not a good one), but was a well-equipped, newly-built clinic with clients who would do most things the vets recommended for their pets.

The employment whole process took several months (after graduation). A very nerve-wracking time.

Some of my classmates ended up scrambling into internships because they weren't able to find a job.

Appreciate the insights. Do you feel that these employment pressures are related more to the stagnant economy as a whole or the grave condition of the profession's future? My hope and perspective leans more towards the latter.

 

[ursulamajor]

Hypothetically, let's say you can't find a job in the states you are licensed in, and you decide to look elsewhere, how long would it take to get licensed in another state?

This depends on the state. Washington State is said to be quite straightforward -- there just may be some waiting for the wheels of bureaucracy to turn. On the other hand, Illinois only offers their licensing exam to non-IL grads a few times a year, so you may have to wait a several months. California is one of the biggest PITA as far as state licensing goes, but you don't need to wait for a scheduled exam, you can take the exams on your own time.

 

[skittles12]

I changed tactics and I sent out 274 resumes and cover letters to almost every practice in the Bay Area. That yielded a great place that was interested, but didn't have any open positions. I volunteered there for quite awhile to keep learning new skills and keep my knowledge fresh. I had a couple of other places that were marginally interested but had only relief positions or were not a great fit (standard of care issues, mainly) so I didn't go out of my way to pursue them.

I'm actually interested in how successful this method is. I would like to return home to southeast TN after graduation. There are quite a few practices there, but I rarely see open positions advertised. I do know that some of the hire new graduates, however. Do you know if sending out a lot of resumes to different practices is successful for most people? (Of course, ideally the vet that I've worked for will be willing to hire me at his mixed practice...a girl can dream, right? 😳)

 

[ursulamajor]

Appreciate the insights. Do you feel that these employment pressures are related more to the stagnant economy as a whole or the grave condition of the profession's future? My hope and perspective leans more towards the latter.

Well, San Francisco is really a boom-or-bust town, more so than the rest of the country. In boom years, it has always been easy to forget this and people spend money like there's no tomorrow. In bust years, people buckle down and tend to forget there is an economic cycle.

So I think things now are mostly due to the stagnant economy. That said, we don't really know if people will start spending the way they used to as the current economic climate shifts. If you think back to The Great Depression, that molded the way many people of that generation handled money (ie, they saved it for a rainy day rather than spending it on discretionary items). It was only WWII that saved this country's economy. On the other hand, more recently, people have started spending again as soon as this country has recovered from smaller recessions. It remains to be seen which way consumer behavior goes in the next 5-10 years. I tend to think they will be more conservative in spending, even in good times.

The other shift specific to veterinary medicine is the increase in vet school class sizes. More vets are graduating each year. In a boom economy, there may be enough jobs for everyone. Now, not so much. And the salary-to-debt ratio is insane. Without IBR, I would be sunk.

I'm not as gloom-and-doom as some, but I do think that vet school class sizes need to stop increasing, and something needs to be done about student debt.

 

[kakurubird]

Between this thread and some others, I really appreciate all of those who are sharing their job search stories. At least for me, it's one thing to read all these doom and gloom statistics, but hearing real stories from those who are currently job searching/just went through the process makes it much more real. (Though it's also really great to hear that it seems most are successful in the end, so congrats all recent grads on your jobs!)

 

[ursulamajor]

I'm actually interested in how successful this method is. I would like to return home to southeast TN after graduation. There are quite a few practices there, but I rarely see open positions advertised. I do know that some of the hire new graduates, however. Do you know if sending out a lot of resumes to different practices is successful for most people? (Of course, ideally the vet that I've worked for will be willing to hire me at his mixed practice...a girl can dream, right? 😳)

I can't tell you how it will work for everyone, but it did work for me 🙂 None of the practices who called me after I sent them cold-call resumes were advertising positions. So if you think about it, I was not competing with 39 other people for the same job (as I was when replying to posted job listings). I was competing with a smaller number of people who were also sending cold-call resumes.

It's probably easier to get discouraged sending unsolicited resumes to people (after all, there were 265+ practices who *weren't* interested in me), but it only takes one "Yes" to get a job.

If you know the exact geographic location you want to target, now is the time to start making connections. Volunteer for a few weeks at various places over the summers. See if there is a local vet association that has meetings you can attend. If there is a specialty practice in the area, see if they hold CE meetings for local practitioners, and ask if you can go. People who know you are much more likely to hire you -- even if they know you only a little bit 🙂

 

[pooter]

Some of my classmates ended up scrambling into internships because they weren't able to find a job.

How did this work out for them? Were the internships all private practice? I only ask because, from what I've worked out so far, academic internships are all done through the match and that has a fall application process iirc? And we're told that a lot of private practice internships are pushing their applications even earlier in hopes of snagging grads who otherwise might have matched. By the time the job searchers got discouraged, were there enough internships left for that to be a viable alternative?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

a practicing vet telling her she's going to be living in her car until she dies of scurvy, it makes you wonder if the vets who choose to post here are a real representation of the professional community.

🙄 I don't recall telling anyone that.

 

[dyachei]

🙄 I don't recall telling anyone that.

Pretty sure I didn't, either.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I don't even think JosephKnecht would have said that

 

[dyachei]

I don't even think JosephKnecht would have said that

 

[cowgirla]

Hey Dyachei (or others who have successfully mastered the evil NAVLE)

When you say the NAVLE makes you list states you want to be licensed in, what is that for? Do they forward your results to those states, and then you have to go through the app process with the individual states (like GRE scores and vet schools)? Is there a limit to how many states you can list on the NAVLE? My dream job is in NH, and my ideal location is right smack in the middle between Maine and Mass, so most vets around there are licensed in at least those three states.

 

[dyachei]

Hey Dyachei (or others who have successfully mastered the evil NAVLE)

When you say the NAVLE makes you list states you want to be licensed in, what is that for? Do they forward your results to those states, and then you have to go through the app process with the individual states (like GRE scores and vet schools)? Is there a limit to how many states you can list on the NAVLE? My dream job is in NH, and my ideal location is right smack in the middle between Maine and Mass, so most vets around there are licensed in at least those three states.

You apply for licensure in a state pre-NAVLE. You can do as many as you'd like, but they do get costly. You get your NAVLE scores through the state reporting for your veterinary license - some states have decided to let NAVLE publish the results online but not all of them. In your case, I would apply to the cheapest state and see where you get the job. You can always apply to more but you may be wasting money if you start with all of them

 

[August West]

Well, San Francisco is really a boom-or-bust town, more so than the rest of the country. In boom years, it has always been easy to forget this and people spend money like there's no tomorrow. In bust years, people buckle down and tend to forget there is an economic cycle.

So I think things now are mostly due to the stagnant economy. That said, we don't really know if people will start spending the way they used to as the current economic climate shifts. If you think back to The Great Depression, that molded the way many people of that generation handled money (ie, they saved it for a rainy day rather than spending it on discretionary items). It was only WWII that saved this country's economy. On the other hand, more recently, people have started spending again as soon as this country has recovered from smaller recessions. It remains to be seen which way consumer behavior goes in the next 5-10 years. I tend to think they will be more conservative in spending, even in good times.

The other shift specific to veterinary medicine is the increase in vet school class sizes. More vets are graduating each year. In a boom economy, there may be enough jobs for everyone. Now, not so much. And the salary-to-debt ratio is insane. Without IBR, I would be sunk.

I'm not as gloom-and-doom as some, but I do think that vet school class sizes need to stop increasing, and something needs to be done about student debt.

👍👍👍👍👍

Then there is this to consider:

Even from 2008 to 2010, years that saw nearly every sector of America’s retail economy crumble, pet spending was up by 11.9%.

..........................

For one thing, our pets now have us outnumbered. There are over 380 million pets in the U.S., compared to a mere 300 million of us mere humans. This represents 63% of all U.S. households, and 40% own more than one pet. In terms of dogs, there are over 78 million dogs living as treasured pets in the United States.9 These numbers continue to grow, in spite of economic hard times and setbacks in many other sectors.

http://www.zoomroomonline.com/pet-services.html

I think it is important for veterinarians to become savvy entrepreneurs with keener business instincts and knowledge in order to tap into more of this consumer spending.

After all, over 16 million dog owners report that they are more attached to their dogs than to their best friend, and 5.4 million are as attached to their dog as to their spouse.

Here are some other numbers from the survey

Pet owners reported that they:

• Give their pet a Christmas or Hanukkah present (100%)
• Consider their pet to have human-like personality traits (94%)
• Would be likely to risk their own life for their pet (93%)
• Provide daily exercise for their pet (80%)
• Include their pet in holiday celebrations (86%)
• Take their pet with them on vacations (67%)
• Sing or dance for a pet (65%)
• Celebrate a pet’s birthday (63%)
• Take time off from work to care for a sick pet (53%)
• Spend more on their pet now than three years ago (53%)
• Prepare special meals for a pet (52%)
• Bring home vacation souvenirs for a pet (44%)
• Take their pet to work (44%)
• Display a pet’s photograph at work (43%)
• Would select a dog over a human as their sole companion on a desert island (40%)

Yet we can't convince them to pay 10-20 bucks a month on preventative care for the health and well-being of these pets? When taking a holistic view of the future of veterinary medicine, it would be wise to look at how we can better market our services and communicate the importance of preventative care to pet owners.

 

[dyachei]

Even from 2008 to 2010, years that saw nearly every sector of America’s retail economy crumble, pet spending was up by 11.9%.




Yet we can't convince them to pay 10-20 bucks a month on preventative care for the health and well-being of these pets? When taking a holistic view of the future of veterinary medicine, it would be wise to look at how we can better market our services and communicate the importance of preventative care to pet owners.

You'd be surprised at what people see as elective versus what people see as necessary. They think we are overcharging them to spend 10-20/month. But they think that if they can avoid the vet they save money and can spend on toys/beds/pet food. So spending is up, but its usually on non-essentials

 

[ursulamajor]

How did this work out for them? Were the internships all private practice? I only ask because, from what I've worked out so far, academic internships are all done through the match and that has a fall application process iirc? And we're told that a lot of private practice internships are pushing their applications even earlier in hopes of snagging grads who otherwise might have matched. By the time the job searchers got discouraged, were there enough internships left for that to be a viable alternative?

There were 3 people who did it that I know of (my class had about 20 North American students total). All scrambled into private practice internships. One internship was well-known and well-regarded, and I was surprised they hadn't filled all their spots. The other 2 people scrambled into the same internship, and were the first internship class from that particular practice, so that was a bit of a gamble for them. We finish school in December, so they had a couple of months to look for jobs before deciding to scramble. I think the 2 who went to the same practice applied much later than match day.

(A few other students in our class went through VIRMP and matched the traditional way into academic and private practice internships.)

 

[ursulamajor]

You'd be surprised at what people see as elective versus what people see as necessary. They think we are overcharging them to spend 10-20/month. But they think that if they can avoid the vet they save money and can spend on toys/beds/pet food. So spending is up, but its usually on non-essentials

I heartily agree. We definitely have clients who buy expensive collars and leashes, pay for doggie day care and super-premium dog food, but who balk at our estimates. Buying expensive accessories for your dog is fun, spending money to fix your broken dog is not.

It's just like cars. You get a rush from buying a BMW and driving a BMW (or so people tell me). You don't get a rush from taking your BMW to the mechanic.

 

[August West]

You'd be surprised at what people see as elective versus what people see as necessary. They think we are overcharging them to spend 10-20/month. But they think that if they can avoid the vet they save money and can spend on toys/beds/pet food. So spending is up, but its usually on non-essentials

That was essentially my point. Even the worst used care salesman could convince a loving pet owner that early diagnostic screening is much more important than throwing a birthday party for Sparky or a new 200 dollar Coach carrier for Stella.

 

[cowgirla]

That was essentially my point. Even the worst used care salesman could convince a loving pet owner that early diagnostic screening is much more important than throwing a birthday party for Sparky or a new 200 dollar Coach carrier for Stella.

If that was a typo, it's a good one and I approve

 

[August West]

I heartily agree. We definitely have clients who buy expensive collars and leashes, pay for doggie day care and super-premium dog food, but who balk at our estimates. Buying expensive accessories for your dog is fun, spending money to fix your broken dog is not.

It's just like cars. You get a rush from buying a BMW and driving a BMW (or so people tell me). You don't get a rush from taking your BMW to the mechanic.

BMW sales include 4 years of free maintenance. That's smart business. And those are just cars, not living creatures. Can veterinarians come up with incentives for taking one's loved ones in for a tune-up or diagnostic screening? I think so.