Student entitlement

[Pragma]

I thought I would start a thread about this broad topic after recently seeing more references to our entitled youth in another thread.

My question is this - what is the nature of the entitlement that people observe? This could be in doctoral programs or the classes you are teaching.

My curiosity comes out of some experiences and thoughts I've had lately as a faculty member. For example, everyone always harps on the younger students entering college and talk about how lazy and entitled they are - and that sterotype has persisted with good reason. However, I've had some interesting experiences teaching master's-level students lately. Some of the most obnoxious students I have encountered are the "older" students. They are working full time, have kids, are coming back for a new career, etc - and basically list all of these as reasons for why my class is one of their lowest priorities. Disproportionately, some of these older students seek extensions, demand that I reconsider my grading, ask for "special consideration," etc.

Now, nontraditional students have historically been my favorite students. But after this year, I can't help but wonder if there is a different form of entitlement that we don't spend time talking about, as we're busy complaining about the youth of America. While I try to be as understanding as possible, I am not about to give anybody special treatment. The trend I saw this year (my first year in a TT job) within our master's programs was for most of the headaches to come from the older students. Maybe it will be different next year.

But does it reflect a broader sense of entitelement, perhaps among older adults who feel they have "paid their dues" and deserve their graduate degrees, or perhaps more broadly among working people? Someone always introduces themselves to me the first day and explains just how busy they are. What difference should that make to me? I hold everyone to the same standard - if you are too busy to do the work and do it on time, then don't take the class. Maybe taking a full load of classes ISN'T a good idea if you are so busy...right?

While I also support broadening access to education, I can't help but think that it goes too far sometimes. We shouldn't be catering our programs (and perhaps sacrificing standards as well) to the whims of people who want that degree and think they deserve it, whether they are a good candidate or not. I view the existence of doctoral programs that allow students to work full time as a direct result of this form of entitlement. It's the idea that they ought to be able to get this training despite their other major time commitments. Sure, lets sacrifice training instead of ask people to sacrifice their own time in order to get appropriate training.

I guess I view this form of entitlement as a little different than the "I paid for it" or the young spoiled brat entitlement images that usually get discussed. I'd be interested in other folks' thoughts. Do you see other forms of entitlement? Does anyone else have this kind of experience with some working older adults?

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[cara susanna]

I've definitely seen it in older students. I think that every generation likes to talk about how the younger one is worse than theirs.

Edit: In fact, here's an article about it: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/05/me-generation-time/65054/

 

[futureapppsy2]

I've definitely seen it in older students. I think that every generation likes to talk about how the younger one is worse than theirs.

Edit: In fact, here's an article from 1976 about the new "me" generation: http://nymag.com/news/features/45938/

Yeah, people have been saying that the current generation is filled with entitled brats who will doom us all since the times of ancient Greeks.

 

[Pragma]

I've definitely seen it in older students. I think that every generation likes to talk about how the younger one is worse than theirs.

Edit: In fact, here's an article about it: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/05/me-generation-time/65054/

Very good read, and I agree about the generational lack of insight.

However, I think there is something broader happening with how our education system is adapting with the times. Instead of promoting access, we are promoting convenience in many cases.

I feel that way particularly with doctoral degrees - it isn't just about the classes/quantity of time you need. But really - some programs seem to condense things in ways that probably are not ideal for learning/reflection. Don't tell me that doing a whole semester of a class is the same thing as condensing it into two weekend-long sessions. It isn't! Now that is a separate, structural issue from entitlement - but for me seems to be the result of the "my education ought to work conveniently for me" as opposed to a student making sacrifices in order to learn optimally.

Some of these students that are so busy ought to just go part time for longer rather than try to cram it all in and then expect special treatment.

 

[somedaypsych]

It comes across as if you are hostile towards those who have made a career switch. Unfortunately, not everyone chooses the right career for path themselves at the age of 22. Not to mention the fact that I am pretty confident I had a lot more to talk about at interviews than the average undergraduate...

I worked hard completing prereq courses while working a "day job", and never once asked for an extension or special treatment. I hope you do not let the few "problem students" influence how you approach older students in the future. Not all of us are trying to speed thru an online degree program to get it over with as you make it seem: Many of us are taking the same path as you, albeit a few years later.

 

[Pragma]

It comes across as if you are hostile towards those who have made a career switch. Unfortunately, not everyone chooses the right career for path themselves at the age of 22. Not to mention the fact that I am pretty confident I had a lot more to talk about at interviews than the average undergraduate...

I worked hard completing prereq courses while working a "day job", and never once asked for an extension or special treatment. I hope you do not let the few "problem students" influence how you approach older students in the future. Not all of us are trying to speed thru an online degree program to get it over with as you make it seem: Many of us are taking the same path as you, albeit a few years later.

Hostile? I am not hostile at all. Why would you say that?

I love older students and think career switchers are great. They are often the best students. But I hold all of my students to the same standard. I was commenting on my experiences this year with having more older working students asking for special consideration. We talk about the entitled younger students all the time and I was making a novel observation. I hope you didn't take it as a sweeping generalization.

Working and going to school is totally possible for many types of programs. But just because you are working shouldn't mean that you get (or expect) special treatment.

 

[somedaypsych]

Pragma, I could absolutely be misinterpreting your tone. I get jazzed up about this topic, being an older student and all...I would just hate to think that this is the dominating view of nontrads like myself, as there are many, many of us who are entering well-respected and established programs, not taking the easy way out.

 

[Pragma]

Pragma, I could absolutely be misinterpreting your tone. I get jazzed up about this topic, being an older student and all...I would just hate to think that this is the dominating view of nontrads like myself, as there are many, many of us who are entering well-respected and established programs, not taking the easy way out.

Most students I work with, traditional and nontraditional, are great students. I don't think it is a prevailing view...in fact, I brought it because I haven't heard people talk about it.

 

[Phipps]

I thought I would start a thread about this broad topic after recently seeing more references to our entitled youth in another thread.


My curiosity comes out of some experiences and thoughts I've had lately as a faculty member. For example, everyone always harps on the younger students entering college and talk about how lazy and entitled they are - and that sterotype has persisted with good reason. However, I've had some interesting experiences teaching master's-level students lately. Some of the most obnoxious students I have encountered are the "older" students. They are working full time, have kids, are coming back for a new career, etc - and basically list all of these as reasons for why my class is one of their lowest priorities. Disproportionately, some of these older students seek extensions, demand that I reconsider my grading, ask for "special consideration," etc.

Now, nontraditional students have historically been my favorite students. But after this year, I can't help but wonder if there is a different form of entitlement that we don't spend time talking about, as we're busy complaining about the youth of America. While I try to be as understanding as possible, I am not about to give anybody special treatment. The trend I saw this year (my first year in a TT job) within our master's programs was for most of the headaches to come from the older students. Maybe it will be different next year.

But does it reflect a broader sense of entitelement, perhaps among older adults who feel they have "paid their dues" and deserve their graduate degrees, or perhaps more broadly among working people? Someone always introduces themselves to me the first day and explains just how busy they are. What difference should that make to me? I hold everyone to the same standard - if you are too busy to do the work and do it on time, then don't take the class. Maybe taking a full load of classes ISN'T a good idea if you are so busy...right?

I view the existence of doctoral programs that allow students to work full time as a direct result of this form of entitlement. It's the idea that they ought to be able to get this training despite their other major time commitments. Sure, lets sacrifice training instead of ask people to sacrifice their own time in order to get appropriate training.

I perceive your post as stereotyping one particular group, based on age. You seem to generalize. This is how you feed into black/white, good/bad thinking. Sounds like splitting to me. I wonder whether you would also be willing to see the unique person independently of age etc., just as a unique young or older student?

I know younger and older peers from my cohort who would ask for an extension or who come across as arrogant, etc.
I personally am not a friend of labeling people as one or the other. Judging does not take you anywhere. Explore reasons for their behavior and you might find, it is not merely the age or the fact that they work FT. There are many reasons for asking for an extension, could be illness, extraordinary stressors, and some are better in pushing through; others, maybe, out of self care, allow themselves to ask for an extension as opposed to work deep into nights...

Weren't you yourself working FT and taking eve/night classes? I thought I remember this from one of your recent posts. I wonder where the anger against this group then comes from? (any transference here?)

 

[Psychadelic2012]

As another older student, I can see both sides--mostly because I've been in both places! When I was younger, the older students would annoy the heck out of me with their "know-it-all" and demanding attitudes. Now, I have a slightly different perspective. It kind of feels like the in-group/out-group thing that was discussed in another thread. It's easy to make generalizations. I do see how older students would feel more "entitled" (not even sure that's the right word) to certain things--in working life, you have to do a lot of negotiation, standing up for yourself, promoting yourself, etc. Meanwhile, a younger person just sucks it up, depends more on others, and suffers silently. I think this can be threatening to a faculty member who is used to a more submissive student body, but it's just something to adapt to. If you let an older student know what the rules are, firmly, and then learn to expect that they will try to push the boundaries, then I think that's the best approach. I think faculty just need to get used to the fact that undergrads and master's students, in particular, will be a significant presence in their classes/labs in the future.

 

[Pragma]

I perceive your post as stereotyping one particular group, based on age. You seem to generalize. This is how you feed into black/white, good/bad thinking. Sounds like splitting to me. I wonder whether you would also be willing to see the unique person independently of age etc., just as a unique young or older student?

Boy, I didn't expect to be accused of stereotyping. I simply made an observation about the types of students that asked me for extensions, etc. this year (which were disproportionately older working students). Anyone can act entitled - I just was applying the concept in this case to a subset of students.

I know younger and older peers from my cohort who would ask for an extension or who come across as arrogant, etc.

So do I. We talk about the young ones ad nauseum in our society. Forgive me for bringing up the idea that there may be some problematic behavior among other groups as well.

I personally am not a friend of labeling people as one or the other. Judging does not take you anywhere. Explore reasons for their behavior and you might find, it is not merely the age or the fact that they work FT. There are many reasons for asking for an extension, could be illness, extraordinary stressors, and some are better in pushing through; others, maybe, out of self care, allow themselves to ask for an extension as opposed to work deep into nights...

We're not labeling/judging an entire group. I'm talking about how entitlement comes up in more than just young people.

Also, I'm not talking about legitimate reasons for requesting an extension (e.g., illness). I'm talking about students who say they are too busy and don't turn something in but expect me to be flexible with them or complain if they don't get an A. This happened to involve more older, working students this past year than younger students. Do you have a problem with me commenting on that trend, which quite obviously does not mean that ALL older working students are this way?

Weren't you yourself working FT and taking eve/night classes? I thought I remember this from one of your recent posts. I wonder where the anger against this group then comes from? (any transference here?)

I'm splitting and transferencing all over the place...come on. This is a professional forum and I brought up student entitlement, which comes up for professional educators like myself. But go ahead and assume it has something to do with my unconscious. I'll do you a favor and not assume that your post reflects any form of transference.

If anyone else thinks I am somehow anti-nontraditional/older student, I'm not at all. I think older students are awesome - in fact, I had an 80-year old in my class last semester and it was one of the best class chemistry experiences I've had largely due to her insights and perspectives (and she never asked for an extension).

 

[Pragma]

Oops! double post

 

[Pragma]

As another older student, I can see both sides--mostly because I've been in both places! When I was younger, the older students would annoy the heck out of me with their "know-it-all" and demanding attitudes. Now, I have a slightly different perspective. It kind of feels like the in-group/out-group thing that was discussed in another thread. It's easy to make generalizations. I do see how older students would feel more "entitled" (not even sure that's the right word) to certain things--in working life, you have to do a lot of negotiation, standing up for yourself, promoting yourself, etc. Meanwhile, a younger person just sucks it up, depends more on others, and suffers silently. I think this can be threatening to a faculty member who is used to a more submissive student body, but it's just something to adapt to. If you let an older student know what the rules are, firmly, and then learn to expect that they will try to push the boundaries, then I think that's the best approach. I think faculty just need to get used to the fact that undergrads and master's students, in particular, will be a significant presence in their classes/labs in the future.

I think those are some good hypotheses.

Personally, I don't find students (young or old) intimidating and I don't mind them advocating for themselves at all. My classes generally give the students some power in terms of decision-making, too, including how deadlines will be structured. When we agree as a group, it is not really a power struggle. The last thing I want a student to do is be "submissive" - we just have rules and deadlines just like there are in the real world. Older students should be even more keenly aware of that, right?

 

[KillerDiller]

Boy, I didn't expect to be accused of stereotyping. I simply made an observation about the types of students that asked me for extensions, etc. this year (which were disproportionately older working students). Anyone can act entitled - I just was applying the concept in this case to a subset of students.

Well, I for one didn't take your post as stereotyping nontraditional students. I took it as evidence against the stereotyping of traditional undergrads. I'm kinda surprised at the reactions on here, tbh.

I dislike it when I hear that this generation of college students are more entitled than previous generations. I know this accusation was at least around when I was in college, and probably has existed for a lot longer than that. (I'll have to read that article that Cara posted). I've seen some entitled students as an instructor, but I'm not convinced it's an epidemic. As a counselor in a UCC, I also see many students--traditional and otherwise--who take on a lot more than their fair share of blame and responsibility.

I think that any shifts in entitlement that have occurred over time, are part of a broader cultural picture. The advent of online education has lead many higher ed institutions to promote education as something that doesn't need to be a priority--it can simply be slotted into your life wherever it needs to fit. So, some students come in expecting this to be the case and expecting that they'll never have to make tough choices between their families/social life, education, and their jobs. This clashes pretty firmly with traditional educational institutions. I mean, most colleges expect that a large chunk of their students will need to move onto campus. This alone represents that education is THE thing that you are supposed to be doing while there. So, if education is only a competing priority for some students, and they're not willing to give any ground on that, then that comes off as entitled.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

As a middle aged doctoral student, I have to say that people in mid-life are simply different than younger students. OLder students are in a different life stage than a 20 something. People in mid life are less tolerant of hierarchy than younger students. Mid life students are far less likely to view relationships with faculty as that of a passive learner versus active instructor. Older students are more likely to question institutions and to take a more active role in our learning. Having worked for 20 plus years in various organizational systems, we tend to see the educational process as one more system to navigate. Many of us have worked for decades in organizations that are flexible to the needs of their workers and staff. What you may be seeing is less entitlement than the result of years of socialization outside of academe where power relationships are different. It is also true that mid-life students are juggling a large array of pressures with families, aging parents, a mortgage, etc ... that a 20 something is not. Take myself for example, I started my doctoral program having two graduate degrees and 20 years of professional experience. I am in my late 40's. It can be a strange experience interacting with a faculty member young enough to be my child who has less life experience than me. I can respect that person, but I can't really look at them as an authority figure. Rather I see them as person with whom I can enter into a collaborative learning relationship. I am also juggling a million things like a house, mortgage, existing career, aging parents family responsibilities, acting as caretaker for a sick relative etc .... These are probably different stresses than many traditional students experience. Traditional aged students, even graduate students, have the enviable luxury of living only for their education. Older students do not have that luxury.

 

[Pragma]

I am in my late 40's. It can be a strange experience interacting with a faculty member young enough to be my child who has less life experience than me. I can respect that person, but I can't really look at them as an authority figure. Rather I see them as person with whom I can enter into a collaborative learning relationship.

Well, so far my approach as a younger professor has been a more collaborative one. But there are still basic things like deadlines, etc. that ought not be a major issue, and really do affect the integrity of the classroom. Despite my relative lack of life experience (although that is debatable...), I may know quite a bit more than them about what they are in class for - otherwise why not have them teach the class?

However, I ALWAYS bring the issue up in class from day 1, and talk about how much I value the experience of people who are there. I get a lot of older students in our master's courses, so it seems pragmatic to discuss it up front and keep communication about it open. I've never had a problem with this - but I've always been told I'm more mature than most people my age and have an "old soul," so perhaps students pick up on the mutual respect.

I am also juggling a million things like a house, mortgage, existing career, aging parents family responsibilities, acting as caretaker for a sick relative etc .... These are probably different stresses than many traditional students experience.

They probably are different, but what would make them more deserving of differential treatment? I know plenty of 20-somethings that juggle a crapload of things, have mortgages, take care of elderly parents, have their own children, etc.

I think it is hard to make the argument that their that stressors are quantitatively different. Maybe in a lot of cases, but not always.

 

[Goobernut]

Well, I for one didn't take your post as stereotyping nontraditional students. I took it as evidence against the stereotyping of traditional undergrads.

I think that any shifts in entitlement that have occurred over time, are part of a broader cultural picture. The advent of online education has lead many higher ed institutions to promote education as something that doesn't need to be a priority--it can simply be slotted into your life wherever it needs to fit. So, some students come in expecting this to be the case and expecting that they'll never have to make tough choices between their families/social life, education, and their jobs. This clashes pretty firmly with traditional educational institutions. I mean, most colleges expect that a large chunk of their students will need to move onto campus. This alone represents that education is THE thing that you are supposed to be doing while there. So, if education is only a competing priority for some students, and they're not willing to give any ground on that, then that comes off as entitled.

All of the above seconded. I think it's more student entitlement in general rather than by an age split.

Pragma, I was rather puzzled by the responses you got in this thread because they seem rather defensive. I'm an older student, and upon reading your post it made me sad to think that my peeps were poorly representing themselves this year I did not feel as if you were attacking or generalizing older students in general. In my opinion you made it very clear that in general you enjoy non-trad students.

In my opinion, the people who were most disruptive in class were older students. In general, they always told personal stories or "over shared." Also, they didn't seem to understand the fine line between trying to clarify a concept and grinding the class to a halt demanding something be explained to you. I got especially frustrated in statistics and research classes, despite the fact that I am an extremely patient person. My professor for research finally had to make a rule that if your story started out with, "My brother/sister/father/cousin/neighbor/cat..." You had to wait until after class.

I also would like to protest the idea that an older student would have a hard time seeing a younger professor as an authority figure. This older student recognizes that younger professors actually have more academic training than I do, and deserve to be treated as an authority figure regardless of how much life experience they have.

 

[JeyRo]

.... I think it's worth noting that Millenials are the ones who seem to be responding to the arguable bursting of the 'higher education bubble' (the inflation of which has seemed to go hand-in-hand with the "I deserve a doctorate!" crowd) by very significantly and studiously avoiding debt, to much greater degrees than their Gen-X and Boomer counterparts.... although not student debt it seems.....

I'd say Boomers and Gen-Xers (of which I am one) is probably a group of much more whiny, entitled types than those coming after them - largely, such an attitude worked for us. For Millenials such an entitled attitude (at least as regards higher education) shouldered them with mountains of debt, and even when the debt was "manageable," terrible job prospects.

My late Grandmother was absolutely, indelibly effected by her experiences during the Great Depression. She was frugal and cautious the rest of her life. I'd be interested to see what the twenty-somethings of today will be like twenty years from now or more.

 

[MBellows]

.... I think it's worth noting that Millenials are the ones who seem to be responding to the arguable bursting of the 'higher education bubble' (the inflation of which has seemed to go hand-in-hand with the "I deserve a doctorate!" crowd) by very significantly and studiously avoiding debt, to much greater degrees than their Gen-X and Boomer counterparts.... although not student debt it seems.....

I'd say Boomers and Gen-Xers (of which I am one) is probably a group of much more whiny, entitled types than those coming after them - largely, such an attitude worked for us. For Millenials such an entitled attitude (at least as regards higher education) shouldered them with mountains of debt, and even when the debt was "manageable," terrible job prospects.

My late Grandmother was absolutely, indelibly effected by her experiences during the Great Depression. She was frugal and cautious the rest of her life. I'd be interested to see what the twenty-somethings of today will be like twenty years from now or more.

Being a 20'something of today I can say that, from seeing the lifestyles of undergrads around me, you're not going to see that rise in frugality. Afterall, those 20'somethings are the same crowd that voted in a Chicago Democrat and (though to a lesser extent) went on to re-elect him. Though, that argument probably doesn't mean much other than the fact that the first time he ran a great campaign and both times he was put up against a band of clowns (no offense to any clowns out there).

My political party rant aside, what I've seen lately is an utter disregard for basic financial responsibility, a general support for other people taking care of them, and a rise in people who support rising group costs with a (modest) rise in services.

They also seem to be perfectly happy voicing their perpetually ignorant views on issues to the general public, whether it's the student socialist group that doesn't know how to bathe or the imbeciles who walk around with pictures of third trimester fetuses talking about banning abortion because it's evil even though you can count the percentage of 3rd trimester abortions in this country on your hand, after cutting off several fingers.

I have a feeling that we will remain a generation that hasn't fallen far from the tree, having been encouraged by our caregivers that we can do anything we want while simultaneously being protected from all possible harm.

 

[Pragma]

Being a 20'something of today I can say that, from seeing the lifestyles of undergrads around me, you're not going to see that rise in frugality. Afterall, those 20'somethings are the same crowd that voted in a Chicago Democrat and (though to a lesser extent) went on to re-elect him. Though, that argument probably doesn't mean much other than the fact that the first time he ran a great campaign and both times he was put up against a band of clowns (no offense to any clowns out there).

My political party rant aside, what I've seen lately is an utter disregard for basic financial responsibility, a general support for other people taking care of them, and a rise in people who support rising group costs with a (modest) rise in services.

They also seem to be perfectly happy voicing their perpetually ignorant views on issues to the general public, whether it's the student socialist group that doesn't know how to bathe or the imbeciles who walk around with pictures of third trimester fetuses talking about banning abortion because it's evil even though you can count the percentage of 3rd trimester abortions in this country on your hand, after cutting off several fingers.

I have a feeling that we will remain a generation that hasn't fallen far from the tree, having been encouraged by our caregivers that we can do anything we want while simultaneously being protected from all possible harm.

Well, obnoxious politics aside (I did find some of the political expression - both left and right - to be vile/uncivilized, and did speak out about that), I see the younger generation as extremely diverse.

I started teaching at the age of 25. At that time, my feelings were more consistent with what you have stated here. Some of that may have come from my irritation that some of these students would be considered my contemporaries when I compared myself to them. Probably by some combination of how I was raised and the culture of the educational institutions I went to, I personally never asked for extensions or ever dreamed of disrespecting others. I was extremely busy working to pay for my tuition while an undergraduate and guess I saw classtime as "all business" - meaning let's do what we are here for. It was my choice to work and go to school, and I saw that as just an added responsibility to time-manage appropriately rather than seek some benefit not afforded to other students, even if it would have been nice.

Now that I am a few years older and have taught a lot, I must admit that my view of younger students has lightened up some. It may be a reflection of that fact that I have usually taught night classes, but most of the younger students I've encountered work outside of school, might be a first-generation college student and view it as a huge privilege to be there, and seem appropriately skeptical/analytical about future prospects rather than just taking something at face value (e.g., when deciding on appropriate career paths or graduate school pursuits). They seem very happy for mentorship, seek advice, and seem to have more sensitivity to multicultural and diversity issues than other students. Even the full-time freshman who live on campus have been a mixed bag.

There are certainly some entitled young brats out there. But the people I am most likely to get phone calls from demanding some form of special consideration (without legitimate excuses) are a) the parents of those young entitled brats (this has been fairly rare actually), or b) older students. Perhaps it reflects assertiveness, as N2Be mentioned, in some cases, and it sure does not hurt to ask I guess. But if some students would just channel their "negotiating" efforts towards just doing the work, they'd be fine.

I LOVE where I teach because I usually get a very diverse class with respect to age, gender, ethnicity/race, cultural background, etc in some of our programs. It probably is a lot more diverse than most places. So for me, it isn't like I am picking on one or two nontraditional students when I made my statement - half of my class could be nontraditional students. I'm just saying that their base rate of complaints I consider to be "entitled" seems higher than that of the younger, more traditional students.

 

[cara susanna]

A lot of those things are more related to the developmental stage said 20-somethings are in, as opposed to a generational difference.

The article I linked to up there talks about how this also explains the "growing narcissism" finding.

 

[Pragma]

I've seen some entitled students as an instructor, but I'm not convinced it's an epidemic. As a counselor in a UCC, I also see many students--traditional and otherwise--who take on a lot more than their fair share of blame and responsibility.

Agree with you here. I think I fell victim to confirmation bias earlier in my teaching career - the longer I am at it the less I am inclined to apply an "epidemic of entitelment" label.

So, some students come in expecting this to be the case and expecting that they'll never have to make tough choices between their families/social life, education, and their jobs. This clashes pretty firmly with traditional educational institutions. I mean, most colleges expect that a large chunk of their students will need to move onto campus. This alone represents that education is THE thing that you are supposed to be doing while there. So, if education is only a competing priority for some students, and they're not willing to give any ground on that, then that comes off as entitled.

Well said.

I also would like to protest the idea that an older student would have a hard time seeing a younger professor as an authority figure. This older student recognizes that younger professors actually have more academic training than I do, and deserve to be treated as an authority figure regardless of how much life experience they have.

I think some young profs probably do things that work against themselves here. Everyone has their own style, sure, but occasionally I see people really try to establish that heirarchy rigidly and get into power struggles that probably are unnecessary.

I firmly believe that giving some brief background about your training, and spending time asking your students about their backgrounds during day 1 helps to alleviate a lot of this nonesense. This past term I had some older students who had a ton of practical experience in leadership roles within mental health institutions. We discussed those experiences, and set the stage for them to be able to contribute some excellent perspectives for topics later in the term. Doing this kind of exchange initially serves to a) help the class get to know each other, b) give them a chance to see your credentials as the prof, c) shows the students that you respect them when you comment and ask questions about their vast life experiences.

Obviously there is more to it than that, but taking just some of your first day in that type of a group dialogue I think helps to foster mutual respect, and also helps students to know that their voice matters. I usually combine that with some democratic processes to determine a few course procedures - but then indicate that we will be sticking to these procedures and that every student will be held to the same standard.

 

[cara susanna]

I have noticed that older students seem less willing to "play the game," which you have to do in academia.

 

[Ollie123]

I think its a mixed bag. I've actually found non-traditional students to be more respectful of authority (they are used to the working world...you listen to your boss, regardless of age) whereas the traditional aged students are used to being relatively impervious (even if you get in trouble in school...what does that really mean? You don't get fired...). Certainly there are robust individual differences within categories and I imagine this also varies enormously by school. I have traditional students juggling incredible responsibilities and older students who gave it all up to go back to school full-time and do nothing but go to class and study. I've only taught as instructor of record 4 times though, so perhaps that just isn't enough for a clear pattern to emerge.

Personally, I also think "life experience" can be a mixed bag and depends on the personality of those who have it. I've had several students who were thoughtful and reflective, sharing relevant anecdotes that highlight material or provide alternative perspectives. These folks I love and we'd discuss their experiences, how that may fit into what I'm presenting (or why it may not), etc. Some of the best discussions I've had in classes came from this.

I've also had several who couldn't get past the notion that "The plural of anecdote is not data". Folks who can't get past the notion that their own naive and simplistic views of their past experiences are not universal truths for all of humanity. These are the folks that usually about 2 weeks into the semester I'm sorely tempted to make sit in a corner with a dunce cap on their head. This is where personality comes in. Life experience can be one of the most valuable teaching tools, or it can corrupt the learning experience completely. I view age as loosely correlated with the presence of meaningful life experiences (i.e. it provides more opportunities for it to occur...but no guarantees), but that's about it.

As for students looking to "get out of things", I haven't really noticed any pattern in that with regards to age. I did get my usual flood of "This was a really tough semester for me because of x, y, z....I know I didn't earn a good grade or express any interest at all in my performance all semester, but is there anything I can do now to get a good grade?" emails at the end of the semester from a range of students. The reply was the same as always. Yes, you can take the course again, study harder, and do the work you are assigned (though I'm "slightly" more polite in the actual email). I'm not sure it has anything to do with age/generation but I do agree it seems increasingly common for people to believe education is something they are owed and should be fit into their schedule. Flexibility would be fine, but unfortunately what people typically mean by flexibility is "lower standards" (e.g. all the psychology programs where you can "Work full-time" and still graduate in a reasonable amount of time...no one has ever made clear how less time learning is somehow still "equal"). Really I think it boils down to what others have said...that degrees are "tickets" to a better job. The focus is on the degree, not the learning. People view college as "purchasing" a diploma, not as an opportunity to learn enough to justify receiving one. They "need" a BA (or an MA or a PhD) because it gets them a promotion at their job. Not an attitude conducive to productive learning (or most likely, being a competent employee) but its the way society seems to be working right now...

 

[jnine]

"Linking Academic Entitlement and Student Incivility Using Latent Means Modeling"

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00220973.2012.727887#.UZFFgivSNQk


couldn't find a copy of the Academic Entitlement Questionnaire, but the article was an interesting skim

 

[futureapppsy2]

I've also had several who couldn't get past the notion that "The plural of anecdote is not data". Folks who can't get past the notion that their own naive and simplistic views of their past experiences are not universal truths for all of humanity.

I've definitely seen this attitude around social justice topics, especially on the Internet--"how dare your empirical evidence contradict my lived experience! That can't be right at all!"--and it baffles me. Yes, people's lived experiences are valid and important, but empirical evidence, provided it is collected with some methodological rigor, provides a much broader, more generalizable picture, even if it doesn't capture every person's experience. Also, ancedotally, I double-majored in social work as an undergrad, and the students in that program generally really liked sharing personal experiences, much moreso than those in my psych classes. I know one person who changed her major from social work because she got so tired of people talking, repeatedly and at length, about their personal experiences with social services programs during class. I mean, personal anecdotes have value to some degree, sure, but they shouldn't overwhelm all other content in a class, IMO.

 

[RonKD]

It comes across as if you are hostile towards those who have made a career switch...

Yes, I also felt the hostility coming through and felt sickened by his attempt at stereotyping a whole group based on age, saying that some of the most "obnoxious" students he's encountered were "older" ones, and then denying any attempt at stereotyping and saying that this is simply based on his experiences and observations. Which is exactly the kind excuse given for bigoted views by people who discriminate against others, be it Jews or Muslims, women or gays, or whatever. They be always claiming that it's just that based on their observations and experiences, these particular people happen to have been the ones doing X (X being whatever illegal, immoral, or just annoying acts)! In short, that their bigoted views are legitimate.

So as an older student who has put up with a lot of difficulties and plays by the rules, I take offence to that. A psychology faculty needs to be above these things. I would not call it that, but "lazy" and "entitled" and "obnoxious" students can be found in all age groups and if you can't get past your bias, maybe this is not a good career fit for you.

 

[Pragma]

Yes, I also felt the hostility coming through and felt sickened by his attempt at stereotyping a whole group based on age, saying that some of the most "obnoxious" students he's encountered were "older" ones, and then denying any attempt at stereotyping and saying that this is simply based on his experiences and observations. Which is exactly the kind excuse given for bigoted views by people who discriminate against others, be it Jews or Muslims, women or gays, or whatever. They be always claiming that it's just that based on their observations and experiences, these particular people happen to have been the ones doing X (X being whatever illegal, immoral, or just annoying acts)! In short, that their bigoted views are legitimate.

So as an older student who has put up with a lot of difficulties and plays by the rules, I take offence to that. A psychology faculty needs to be above these things. I would not call it that, but "lazy" and "entitled" and "obnoxious" students can be found in all age groups and if you can't get past your bias, maybe this is not a good career fit for you.

Wow...

Well, feel free to assume away. I can't control how you choose to "feel" about some actual observations I have made in class, despite the fact that I've only tried to frame the discussion a little differently than our typical young people bashing. To compare me to a bigot based on the fact that some of my more difficult students have been older students seems like a drastic and defensive stretch, IMO. Newsflash: comparing a low probability in one age group to a less low probability in another age group does not equal blanket stereotyping.

 

[WisNeuro]

Whoah Ron! Hostile attribution bias anyone? Go get your morning coffee and settle down.

Pragma, I agree with some of the other posters, your post was fine. You didn't "over-generalize." Some people have just been watching too much of things like Faux News where they have to look for a threat anywhere they can.

That being said, I was always a hardliner in my classes when I used to teach. I told them on the first day that I allowed very little for extensions, that I graded harder on writing assignments than others because I adhered to the rubric, etc, to allow them the chance to switch if they wanted. Although, that was undergrads. I imagine it would be fairly different for grads. I've only clinically supervised, haven't taught courses to them yet.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Not to open an entirely new debate/can of worms, but I find it slightly interesting that with all the ire that's been raised mentioning entitlement in nontraditional students, the idea of entitlement in younger students has seemingly been tacitly accepted without much issue.

Personally, I've found entitlement to be present in all age groups; I'd imagine we just see it more in younger students at the undergraduate and graduate levels because there are more of them, and perhaps because those settings may pull for those individuals and/or those behaviors more so than many others.

 

[Pragma]

Not to open an entirely new debate/can of worms, but I find it slightly interesting that with all the ire that's been raised mentioning entitlement in nontraditional students, the idea of entitlement in younger students has seemingly been tacitly accepted without much issue.

Personally, I've found entitlement to be present in all age groups; I'd imagine we just see it more in younger students at the undergraduate and graduate levels because there are more of them, and perhaps because those settings may pull for those individuals and/or those behaviors more so than many others.

I actually think that most students I meet don't really act entitled. But I do find students in all demographics who do act entitled. I think how it is expressed might come off differently based on age, context, etc. In my setting, it just seems to happen more often than I would have expected with older students.

Complaining about the entitled young brats is tacitly accepted I think - and perhaps for some good reason. But I don't think that stereotype fits most young students I meet. Nor would I say that my observations of entitled older students reflect most older students. It seems like I may have to repeat that a few more times to avoid being accused of bigotry, though, and I probably still will

I think you make a good point about setting norms. Perhaps my experience has been different though - my graduate program had a lot of nontraditional students and where I teach also has a lot of nontraditional students. I suppose I could see how someone might perceive any criticism of nontraditional students as a threat if they assume that all settings have a sparse amount of nontraditional students.

 

[erg923]

Yes, I also felt the hostility coming through and felt sickened by his attempt at stereotyping a whole group based on age, saying that some of the most "obnoxious" students he's encountered were "older" ones, and then denying any attempt at stereotyping and saying that this is simply based on his experiences and observations. Which is exactly the kind excuse given for bigoted views by people who discriminate against others, be it Jews or Muslims, women or gays, or whatever. They be always claiming that it's just that based on their observations and experiences, these particular people happen to have been the ones doing X (X being whatever illegal, immoral, or just annoying acts)! In short, that their bigoted views are legitimate.

So as an older student who has put up with a lot of difficulties and plays by the rules, I take offence to that. A psychology faculty needs to be above these things. I would not call it that, but "lazy" and "entitled" and "obnoxious" students can be found in all age groups and if you can't get past your bias, maybe this is not a good career fit for you.

Good grief, I haven't heard so much crying since little johnny's soccer team went 0-12 and he saw all the other kids getting trophies.

As a fellow faculty member, I am sure pragma is simply being a good clinician scientist and wanted to investigate others experience of a phenomena he has picked up on.

 

[CoreConcept]

Pragma, I don't think your post came off as bigoted or intending to stereotype at all. However, I can see how using the term "entitled" could rub some people the wrong way because it connotes deserving of special or differential treatment. I think that some students, young and older, do feel entitled - and they are obnoxious! However, what I think is going on usually is a difference of expectations that I think often happens when making transitions (e.g. from high school to college, from the workforce into a graduate program, etc.). For some, these transitions are huge and it takes a while to adjust to new requirements and standards, especially if there has been little formal preparation for the increased demands (e.g. coming from a small rural school vs. a college prep high school). Personally, I have seen this more with grad students coming directly from undergrad or from years in the workforce (both common in my PhD program), rather than those who took some time off to prepare for graduate work specifically. The realities of graduate work usually force them to change their expectations and adjust accordingly or to realize they're not ready for the committment graduate work requires - I've seen both as a fellow student and teaching assistant.

 

[Pragma]

Pragma, I don't think your post came off as bigoted or intending to stereotype at all. However, I can see how using the term "entitled" could rub some people the wrong way because it connotes deserving of special or differential treatment. I think that some students, young and older, do feel entitled - and they are obnoxious! However, what I think is going on usually is a difference of expectations that I think often happens when making transitions (e.g. from high school to college, from the workforce into a graduate program, etc.). For some, these transitions are huge and it takes a while to adjust to new requirements and standards, especially if there has been little formal preparation for the increased demands (e.g. coming from a small rural school vs. a college prep high school). Personally, I have seen this more with grad students coming directly from undergrad or from years in the workforce (both common in my PhD program), rather than those who took some time off to prepare for graduate work specifically. The realities of graduate work usually force them to change their expectations and adjust accordingly or to realize they're not ready for the committment graduate work requires - I've seen both as a fellow student and teaching assistant.

Yes, I think you make a good point regarding how expectations and transitions affect this. But I don't regret using the term "entitled." I do think that if we are going to throw the term around at anyone, then we ought to be consistent about it. I don't perceive much of a difference between a young brat wanting special treatment and an older student wanting special treatment, even if their reasons for wanting it are different. Both want special treatment. Both made a choice to be in the class and both ought to be held to the same standard as every other student in the class.

 

[CoreConcept]

I don't personally have much of a problem with the term, though I think it is an overgeneral one. I just think it is more helpful to understand where the "entitlement" comes from, so that it can be addressed in a prodcutive way. I have little patience for the student who thinks they are a unique case and believe they deserve special treatment (when they are really just not making the class/assignment a priority). I take a more hard line stance with these students and colleagues (we all have other obligations, but seem to get our work done). But I am more understanding with the student who is overwhelmed because they aren't initially equipped to handle the pressure or the work, but ask for an extension or that exception be made - as long as they demonstrate a desire to figure it out. Of course, when there are many of these students and the students don't seem to be adapting, it can be irritating and exhausting.

 

[Pragma]

I don't personally have much of a problem with the term, though I think it is an overgeneral one. I just think it is more helpful to understand where the "entitlement" comes from, so that it can be addressed in a prodcutive way. I have little patience for the student who thinks they are a unique case and believe they deserve special treatment (when they are really just not making the class/assignment a priority). I take a more hard line stance with these students and colleagues (we all have other obligations, but seem to get our work done). But I am more understanding with the student who is overwhelmed because they aren't initially equipped to handle the pressure or the work, but ask for an extension or that exception be made - as long as they demonstrate a desire to figure it out. Of course, when there are many of these students and the students don't seem to be adapting, it can be irritating and exhausting.

I think that the cases I typically encounter are ones where the entitlement is "premeditated" to some extent. During the first class, I usually have a couple of students that come to explain to me just exactly how busy they are, how many obligations that they have, and that they would appreciate flexibility when it comes to due dates. When I have indicated that due dates are firm and request that they plan accordingly, sometimes I have received some bickering. But keep in mind, this is the first night in class. They essentially want a free pass to turn in stuff late all term and not be penalized. I started a class recently where I encountered some pretty strong resistance and inappropriate comments from older students when I indicated that I was holding all students to the same standard. By the way - there aren't a lot of due dates for my courses, either. I don't give much "busy work."

There are some that are probably less equipped or perhaps bit off more than they could chew. But objectively, is that much different than an 18 year old that does not time manage appropriately? I guess I don't see why someone else ought to be given preferential treatment because they are older.

 

[cara susanna]

Read the link that I posted earlier--it says that a lot of the research indicating that the younger generation is more entitled can be explained by developmental stages (in general, narcissism tends to be higher when you're in your late teens and early twenties).

 

[Pragma]

Read the link that I posted earlier--it says that a lot of the research indicating that the younger generation is more entitled can be explained by developmental stages (in general, narcissism tends to be higher when you're in your late teens and early twenties).

So what does that say about those older students I am talking about then if they are exhibiting similar behavior, when some of that behavior is only developmentally appropriate at younger ages?

 

[MBellows]

So what does that say about those older students I am talking about then if they are exhibiting similar behavior, when some of that behavior is only developmentally appropriate at younger ages?

That there's a reason they went into psychology?

 

[sabaijae]

An acquaintance owns a small service-oriented business and deals with lots of such entitlement especially with older/boomer clients. It was also kind of a culture shock for me to see the level of entitlement shown by younger classmates in my current program. Very demanding, entitled, etc. It's cultural - we're in the internet era where information/knowledge, service, everything is to be demanded ("on-demand")/personalized.

 

[beingintherapy]

I think you're confusing the "how" of sacrifice with the "what." Referring to your original post, it seems to me that you're unaware of what those sacrifices are in real terms for nontraditional students. While a 20-something may sacrifice time with friends, as one of my good friends does. She rarely leaves before 11 am, but rarely comes home (my neighbor, so I know) before midnight. In what way is that schedule even possible with children, much less larger responsibilities to a household?

During early child-rearing this is not an issue. Having small children actually requires very little from parents. As the child grows, so do the problems presented. For example, in what way is a toddler comparable to a teenager? At least with a toddler one can be assured of reasonable expectations in child care. The same cannot be said of a teenager or pre-teen under even moderate supervision.

What do problems during teen years present? Are they larger than the problems that can be caused by thoughtful, well-trained care of toddlers? Intrinsically yes, they are larger. Sustained absence during pre and teen years can be much more devastating in terms of emotional capabilities, particularly where only poor child care is available. This doesn't even broach the subject of special needs, which comprises the children of many, if not a majority of psych focused individuals.

Are you saying that non-traditional students should not be allowed to participate in graduate programs because they can't invest the appropriate amount of time on campus? That their potential is less because of the differences in their network of responsibility?
Is it merely that your construct of education is defined by an investment theory that doesn't necessarily work?

Specifically, I'm referring to your suggestion that full coursework should not be attempted if one can't invest the requisite time. However, that is the ONLY way most non-traditional students can afford a continuing education. Most financial aid is only available to full-time students. For non-traditional students, this means working close to full-time, attending classes full-time, and parenting full-time. There is very little leeway in what amounts to a very small window of opportunity.

That being said, there is a very real, and very unappealing trend in education recently. While opening access, we've taken the responsibility for determining purpose and goals away from students. A more open-ended plan, I think, is required that forces students to think not just about their career, but education in the larger sense. I think, in preparing people for work, we've lost the larger goal of education which is to produce individuals who are capable, studious, ethical, and able to offer a contribution that not only adds quantity to knowledge but adds value.

In our obsession with teaching we've forgotten that teaching is ultimately about students, and not protecting the inner sanctum from the unwashed masses. The difference is largely one of attitude. A Socratic inheritance, perhaps, but vile nonetheless.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think you're confusing the "how" of sacrifice with the "what." Referring to your original post, it seems to me that you're unaware of what those sacrifices are in real terms for nontraditional students. While a 20-something may sacrifice time with friends, as one of my good friends does. She rarely leaves before 11 am, but rarely comes home (my neighbor, so I know) before midnight. In what way is that schedule even possible with children, much less larger responsibilities to a household?

During early child-rearing this is not an issue. Having small children actually requires very little from parents. As the child grows, so do the problems presented. For example, in what way is a toddler comparable to a teenager? At least with a toddler one can be assured of reasonable expectations in child care. The same cannot be said of a teenager or pre-teen under even moderate supervision.

What do problems during teen years present? Are they larger than the problems that can be caused by thoughtful, well-trained care of toddlers? Intrinsically yes, they are larger. Sustained absence during pre and teen years can be much more devastating in terms of emotional capabilities, particularly where only poor child care is available. This doesn't even broach the subject of special needs, which comprises the children of many, if not a majority of psych focused individuals.

Are you saying that non-traditional students should not be allowed to participate in graduate programs because they can't invest the appropriate amount of time on campus? That their potential is less because of the differences in their network of responsibility?
Is it merely that your construct of education is defined by an investment theory that doesn't necessarily work?

Specifically, I'm referring to your suggestion that full coursework should not be attempted if one can't invest the requisite time. However, that is the ONLY way most non-traditional students can afford a continuing education. Most financial aid is only available to full-time students. For non-traditional students, this means working close to full-time, attending classes full-time, and parenting full-time. There is very little leeway in what amounts to a very small window of opportunity.

That being said, there is a very real, and very unappealing trend in education recently. While opening access, we've taken the responsibility for determining purpose and goals away from students. A more open-ended plan, I think, is required that forces students to think not just about their career, but education in the larger sense. I think, in preparing people for work, we've lost the larger goal of education which is to produce individuals who are capable, studious, ethical, and able to offer a contribution that not only adds quantity to knowledge but adds value.

In our obsession with teaching we've forgotten that teaching is ultimately about students, and not protecting the inner sanctum from the unwashed masses. The difference is largely one of attitude. A Socratic inheritance, perhaps, but vile nonetheless.

Regarding the first bolded point, I would say that's a possibly-dangerous assumption to make. While the 20-something likely doesn't have pre-teen children (although that's also an assumption which could be incorrect), there's no telling if this person is handling the responsibilities of a large household, caring for a sick parent or other family member, etc. Similarly, there's no telling what the responsibilities of the nontraditional student are. On average, are the responsibilities likely different? Sure. But as we all know, applying population-level trends to individuals can become very problematic very quickly. And beyond that, attempting to rank-order responsibilities and potential sacrifices could also become problematic very quickly.

For the second bolded point, and related to the first, I would say yes, anyone (younger, older, whoever) who can't be on campus for the "appropriate" amount of time likely should not be participating in (traditional) graduate education. It says nothing about their potential as a student and/or future clinician/researcher; rather, it's a matter of being able to complete the requisite training to gain at least the minimal levels of professional competence. In my mind at least, the fairest solution is (as Pragma has done) to apply the same standards to all students. Developing individualized expectations for each student based on life circumstances, while perhaps an admirable goal, is too onerous a task for any one instructor.

For a medical school-related example, would we expect med students to be able to make it through their training program if they weren't able to complete their requisite clinical rotations during years 3 and 4? Or if they weren't able to complete their residency? While the two training situations aren't perfectly analogous, in both cases the end result is that you're likely going to be working with very real, and potentially very vulnerable, patients. As a result, the need to ensure proper training is paramount.

Are there possibly other ways of training that may perhaps be equivalent to the current model? Sure, but the current model is what we've got, and new models need to show themselves to be equivalent to it in terms of outcome before they're going to be able to gain widespread acceptance.

 

[WisNeuro]

I was going to write out a long, well thought out reply, and AA went ahead and said it beautifully.

 

[Pragma]

I was going to write out a long, well thought out reply, and AA went ahead and said it beautifully.

Yeah, he does that from time to time

 

[Pragma]

That being said, there is a very real, and very unappealing trend in education recently. While opening access, we've taken the responsibility for determining purpose and goals away from students. A more open-ended plan, I think, is required that forces students to think not just about their career, but education in the larger sense. I think, in preparing people for work, we've lost the larger goal of education which is to produce individuals who are capable, studious, ethical, and able to offer a contribution that not only adds quantity to knowledge but adds value.

In our obsession with teaching we've forgotten that teaching is ultimately about students, and not protecting the inner sanctum from the unwashed masses. The difference is largely one of attitude. A Socratic inheritance, perhaps, but vile nonetheless.

I appreciate your thoughtful post. I do take issue with some of your statements, but I think AA did a good job of addressing most of those things.

Regarding the bolded point above - what exactly do you mean by that? Of course it is about the students. I am just as skeptical of unapplicable ivory tower practices as you sound like - but in my experience, those practices are the exception and not the rule at all.

But students also don't know what they don't know. There is a reason that faculty members are expected to have numerous qualifications and training and why it is so difficult to even get a tenure track job. Otherwise, just hire anybody and have them just completely cater to the whims of the students that are paying tuition. I doubt students will learn much of anything, but they will certainly feel good.

Education has trended towards being a more of a consumer product than a privilege. If you can somewhow express to me in practical terms how one can sacrifice any expectations of students and allow them to put their coursework on the furthest back burner, but still give them a high quality education, I'd be happy to be enlightened. Perhaps we are all wasting our time here if there is some secret to it.

 

[erg923]

That being said, there is a very real, and very unappealing trend in education recently. While opening access, we've taken the responsibility for determining purpose and goals away from students. A more open-ended plan, I think, is required that forces students to think not just about their career, but education in the larger sense. I think, in preparing people for work, we've lost the larger goal of education which is to produce individuals who are capable, studious, ethical, and able to offer a contribution that not only adds quantity to knowledge but adds value.

In our obsession with teaching we've forgotten that teaching is ultimately about students, and not protecting the inner sanctum from the unwashed masses. The difference is largely one of attitude. A Socratic inheritance, perhaps, but vile nonetheless.

1. Yes, i would say that you if you cant spend the proper amount of time on campus in an graduate program, then you shouldn't be in it. Not sure what the beef is with that. Seems reasonable...I don't really care how old you are what else you have going on.

2. The quoted part above is odd because I don't know who the "we" is you're referencing?

I think this convo is ALL about students and is a good snapshot at how much we care about student learning and training. If we didn't value that, then who cares about if they don't adhere to deadlines and arguing about grades, right? This convo and others similar to it previously have all been about that some student don't need college (or insert degree here) to achieve what they want...and its unfortunate that society has basically frightened them into thinking they are less than if they don't attain "a college degree." That's ALL about the welfare of students....

 

[psychRA]

I do think it's interesting that folks seem completely comfortable making the assumption that younger students are entitled, but become offended when it's suggested that older students are also capable of being entitled. I didn't think that the OP was making generalizations about older students, but you can't have it both ways - if you're okay with making blanket statements about those self-absorbed millenials with their smartphones and their seflies and their tweets, you don't get to whine when someone makes observations about students in other age groups.

FWIW, I was a traditional student and a less traditionally aged student. I agree that entitlement can arise from multiple sources. Some younger students haven't been out in "the real world" as much and may struggle with the idea that they have to conform to deadlines and standards. Some older students may feel that because they've been out in the real world, they've paid their dues and shouldn't have to be held to the same deadlines and standards as everyone else. This doesn't seem particularly earth-shattering to me.

 

[somedaypsych]

I guess this thread wouldn't rub me the wrong way if we were discussing students more generally. I'm not sure that traditional vs non-traditional is relevant at all, really. Some students are pains, some are not.

 

[Pragma]

I guess this thread wouldn't rub me the wrong way if we were discussing students more generally. I'm not sure that traditional vs non-traditional is relevant at all, really. Some students are pains, some are not.

Well, I framed it this way because it is different than what the usual conversations about student entitlement are.

Part of why I brought up the issue with older students is because I was pretty surprised by how often it came up. I "cut my teeth" teaching Psych 101 to mostly traditional students, and got pretty familiar with issues that affected that age group. There actually were a lot more commuting/working lower division students than I had expected at that point. My earlier experiences with nontraditional students were almost always positive. So when I came to an institution with more of these students, perhaps my expectations were higher than they should have been.

I totally agree that some students are pains and some are not. But sometimes, we have to ask why, and to do that, we sometimes have to look at subgroups of the "pains." In my recent experience, the disproportionate amount of older students who have expected preferential treatment has been something I've felt compelled to explore.

 

[somedaypsych]

Well, I framed it this way because it is different than what the usual conversations about student entitlement are.

Part of why I brought up the issue with older students is because I was pretty surprised by how often it came up. I "cut my teeth" teaching Psych 101 to mostly traditional students, and got pretty familiar with issues that affected that age group. There actually were a lot more commuting/working lower division students than I had expected at that point. My earlier experiences with nontraditional students were almost always positive. So when I came to an institution with more of these students, perhaps my expectations were higher than they should have been.

I totally agree that some students are pains and some are not. But sometimes, we have to ask why, and to do that, we sometimes have to look at subgroups of the "pains." In my recent experience, the disproportionate amount of older students who have expected preferential treatment has been something I've felt compelled to explore.

I get where you are coming from...I suppose I just don't share in your curiosity, probably because I did post bac work at a city school full of commuters. All students, young and "old," were dealing with family issues, money issues, etc. The line between "nontrad" and "trad" was blurred as a result of family obligations and such.