Sub 3.0 GPA-->postbac-->SMP-->US MD

[smiley27]

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When people with sub 3.0 GPAs come to the postbac forum asking for advice for career changers they get the usual SDN run-around -- "Change careers, it's too difficult/will take too long to get into a US MD school. If you really want it, plan to spend 3+ years to get in."

But, how many people have taken this route? How many people have actually grinded for 4 years to get into a US MD school? I've been on SDN for a while, I spend a lot of time reading the boards and I also have spent a lot of time on mdapplicants.com and I can only say I've come across <15 people that have taken this route and are documented.

Where are all the others? Anyone else have stories to share about their experience of coming back from a low gpa by killing a career-changer postbac and MCAT, killing an SMP then getting getting an acceptance to a US MD school after 3+ years of hard work?

Going into my 4th semester in my postbac I can't help but let my eyes wander down the DO/Carib path. But I somewhat envision myself trying to get into a competitive surgical residency so DO/Carib is not the ideal option.

I've already read the non-trad success story thread which is where I got a lot of good advice and heard good stories from. But even in that thread not too many people do the true "4+ year gpa comeback path" and they just do a portion of it. I've read most of the low gpa thread here in the postbac forum. You can find some good nuggets in there but I'm tired of reading all these plans of grand comebacks and castle building in there just to see these posters disappear and never come back to share their stories.

 

[rock2doc]

my path is not quite what you are asking about, but still a data point:

just barely below 3.0 undergrad gpa. essentially no science. did 2 year career changer/prereqs postbac (same as yours) while volunteering and a TA job. brought gpa to somewhere in between 3.15 and 3.30. rocked the mcat. applied this summer while working full time in clinical research at a big academic hospital for the next year and still taking classes. so far, 2 md acceptances. It's doable in less than 4 years.

One key is to spend a lot of time figuring out which schools MIGHT like you. and make sure to apply there. For low gpa career changers, some of the new med schools might be a great fit. There are also some other more established schools that like us folks a lot (especially when we do well enough on the MCAT)

 

[DrMidlife]

There's an "accepted" version of the nontrad success story thread, and a "not yet accepted" version. Make sure you're looking at the "accepted" version.

The GPA redemption path to med school is never going to be popular, well-traveled or well-publicized. You're not expected to succeed, and in most cases, it's irresponsible to recommend this path to the average low GPA student.

All the GPA comeback stories here have two things in common.
1. Do the work.
2. Don't quit.

Best of luck to you.

 

[AntonFreeman]

When people with sub 3.0 GPAs come to the postbac forum asking for advice for career changers they get the usual SDN run-around -- "Change careers, it's too difficult/will take too long to get into a US MD school. If you really want it, plan to spend 3+ years to get in."

But, how many people have taken this route? How many people have actually grinded for 4 years to get into a US MD school? I've been on SDN for a while, I spend a lot of time reading the boards and I also have spent a lot of time on mdapplicants.com and I can only say I've come across <15 people that have taken this route and are documented.

Where are all the others? Anyone else have stories to share about their experience of coming back from a low gpa by killing a career-changer postbac and MCAT, killing an SMP then getting getting an acceptance to a US MD school after 3+ years of hard work?

Going into my 4th semester in my postbac I can't help but let my eyes wander down the DO/Carib path. But I somewhat envision myself trying to get into a competitive surgical residency so DO/Carib is not the ideal option.

I've already read the non-trad success story thread which is where I got a lot of good advice and heard good stories from. But even in that thread not too many people do the true "4+ year gpa comeback path" and they just do a portion of it. I've read most of the low gpa thread here in the postbac forum. You can find some good nuggets in there but I'm tired of reading all these plans of grand comebacks and castle building in there just to see these posters disappear and never come back to share their stories.

I am not a career changer but I will be on my 4th year on my "comeback path." I graduated in 09 with sub 3.0 gpa, have been doing post-bac since and I will be doing SMP up coming fall. I wondered many times if all this work is worth it but this epic GPA comeback has humbled me and made me really appreciate the process. When 2014 comes around, I will keep you posted.

 

[deleted248403]

I can't help but let my eyes wander down the DO/Carib path. But I somewhat envision myself trying to get into a competitive surgical residency so DO/Carib is not the ideal option.

Recent JAMA issue (within last month or two) highlighted the upcoming residency crunch.

They project by 2015/2016 (I think, dont have the article near me) that the number of US allopathic graduates will fill all current allopathic residencies. This means it will drive out DOs and IMG/FMGs from the allopathic pool as the current system favours US MDs over all others.

So this means a lot more the DOs will stay in their own residency system, and the IMG/FMGs won't get residencies in the US.

So, i'd be terrified by going to the Carib at this point. Read the article about residency shortages before ever going to the Carib.

 

[DrMidlife]

DO's will no longer have separate residencies starting July 2015. The ACGME, which accredits "MD" residencies, is taking over accreditation of all the DO residencies. http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/10-24-2012PressRelease.pdf

You'd think this is a step towards more equality for DOs, but I don't think so. It won't make the traditional "MD" residencies accept more DOs, and it won't make the DO residencies accept MDs. It won't open more residencies. It won't do away with COMLEX. The residencies that now accept COMLEX scores and/or DOs will continue to do so, and the number of residencies in that category will continue to grow, particularly in primary care and in underserved areas.

Some of the better Carib schools, like SGU, are figuring out that they can fund some residency spots at the hospitals where they already have relationships. This helps the Carib marketing story, but are we talking 10 residencies? 20? (Note: It's $100k per ACGME residency spot per year in the US, out of the Medicare budget.) How about the other ~200 students graduating the "good" Carib schools each semester? (Note: Carib class sizes are frequently 400 at the start of each med school class. Class sizes are frequently under 200 at graduation. That's the real reason to balk at Carib.)

There will always be residency spots for the best performing students, MD/DO/Carib/etc. The mistake is in assuming you'll be one of those best performing students. Every single fresh medical student expects to be at the top of his or her class. If you've never been at the top of your class in the past, you are making a huge mistake to think you'll be at the top against that competition. So in choosing a med school path, I recommend planning to be below average, and focus on those consequences. (And then study your fanny off to avoid those consequences.)

In the context of GPA redemption, you have to be really good at math and really averse to denial to figure out if DO/Carib make sense for you. Neither DO nor Carib are a good idea prior to the accumulation of a large pile of A's in hard science coursework. MD isn't a good idea prior to academic achievement either, but MD schools will work pretty hard to keep you from failing out. DO and Carib, by contrast, will kick your underachieving ass out the door. DO schools, on average, will cut you some slack on one failed class, but it's much less common to be given the chance to remediate a year in DO school. Carib schools will sooth you with the chance to remediate...and as soon as they have that extra year of tuition, they kick you out before you can sully the board score average.

Nobody, nobody, thinks they're going to fail a med school class or have to remediate. Of course not. But looking at that worst case, on a GPA redemption path, is just smart.

Bottom line, it's up to you whether you choose to take a few semesters' worth of A's and a not-complete-crap MCAT and get into a med school quickly, or play the game and get into a good med school more slowly. Whichever way you go, just figure out how to be a good student before med school.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Kentobari]

When people with sub 3.0 GPAs come to the postbac forum asking for advice for career changers they get the usual SDN run-around -- "Change careers, it's too difficult/will take too long to get into a US MD school. If you really want it, plan to spend 3+ years to get in."

But, how many people have taken this route? How many people have actually grinded for 4 years to get into a US MD school? I've been on SDN for a while, I spend a lot of time reading the boards and I also have spent a lot of time on mdapplicants.com and I can only say I've come across <15 people that have taken this route and are documented.

Where are all the others? Anyone else have stories to share about their experience of coming back from a low gpa by killing a career-changer postbac and MCAT, killing an SMP then getting getting an acceptance to a US MD school after 3+ years of hard work?

Going into my 4th semester in my postbac I can't help but let my eyes wander down the DO/Carib path. But I somewhat envision myself trying to get into a competitive surgical residency so DO/Carib is not the ideal option.

I've already read the non-trad success story thread which is where I got a lot of good advice and heard good stories from. But even in that thread not too many people do the true "4+ year gpa comeback path" and they just do a portion of it. I've read most of the low gpa thread here in the postbac forum. You can find some good nuggets in there but I'm tired of reading all these plans of grand comebacks and castle building in there just to see these posters disappear and never come back to share their stories.

I know you're looking for success stories, and I'm not one [yet], but I'm in the same boat as you. This is the path I've chosen. I'm 28, and a year doesn't seem nearly as long to me as it used to when I was 22.

My thinking is that I want to remove as much certainty as possible, thinking that if I do well in a post-bacc and get a good MCAT score, then I'll most likely get accepted by an SMP. If I do an SMP [well], then I'm more likely to get into med school. Why not do an SMP? I mean, I figure that will make med school curriculum more manageable when you get there.

When you're 50 years old, will you look back on your life and think "man, I really shouldn't have spent that year in an SMP"? Seriously...

Anyways, not a success story, but committed to this path.

 

[KittySquared]

Don't give up and do your best.

I see a lot of this in the dental forums also. People hovering around a 3.0 or less doing great on their postbac/prereqs and then doing a 1-2 year masters and getting accepted. It's doable, but persistence and efficient studying habits are important. Setting aside private life drama and issues etc are vital to your success as well. I think as a career changer, it took me 3 years to get accepted at my #1 choice.

 

[darklabel]

DO's will no longer have separate residencies starting July 2015. The ACGME, which accredits "MD" residencies, is taking over accreditation of all the DO residencies. http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/10-24-2012PressRelease.pdf

You'd think this is a step towards more equality for DOs, but I don't think so. It won't make the traditional "MD" residencies accept more DOs, and it won't make the DO residencies accept MDs. It won't open more residencies. It won't do away with COMLEX. The residencies that now accept COMLEX scores and/or DOs will continue to do so, and the number of residencies in that category will continue to grow, particularly in primary care and in underserved areas.

Some of the better Carib schools, like SGU, are figuring out that they can fund some residency spots at the hospitals where they already have relationships. This helps the Carib marketing story, but are we talking 10 residencies? 20? (Note: It's $100k per ACGME residency spot per year in the US, out of the Medicare budget.) How about the other ~200 students graduating the "good" Carib schools each semester? (Note: Carib class sizes are frequently 400 at the start of each med school class. Class sizes are frequently under 200 at graduation. That's the real reason to balk at Carib.)

There will always be residency spots for the best performing students, MD/DO/Carib/etc. The mistake is in assuming you'll be one of those best performing students. Every single fresh medical student expects to be at the top of his or her class. If you've never been at the top of your class in the past, you are making a huge mistake to think you'll be at the top against that competition. So in choosing a med school path, I recommend planning to be below average, and focus on those consequences. (And then study your fanny off to avoid those consequences.)

In the context of GPA redemption, you have to be really good at math and really averse to denial to figure out if DO/Carib make sense for you. Neither DO nor Carib are a good idea prior to the accumulation of a large pile of A's in hard science coursework. MD isn't a good idea prior to academic achievement either, but MD schools will work pretty hard to keep you from failing out. DO and Carib, by contrast, will kick your underachieving ass out the door. DO schools, on average, will cut you some slack on one failed class, but it's much less common to be given the chance to remediate a year in DO school. Carib schools will sooth you with the chance to remediate...and as soon as they have that extra year of tuition, they kick you out before you can sully the board score average.

Nobody, nobody, thinks they're going to fail a med school class or have to remediate. Of course not. But looking at that worst case, on a GPA redemption path, is just smart.

Bottom line, it's up to you whether you choose to take a few semesters' worth of A's and a not-complete-crap MCAT and get into a med school quickly, or play the game and get into a good med school more slowly. Whichever way you go, just figure out how to be a good student before med school.

Best of luck to you.

How is DO not a good idea? Also I've never heard of DOs NOT getting a residency but instead have a harder time with matching into ROADs or very competitive residency. Instead of 3+ years of postbacc with no guarantee, why not start making income earlier (100k+) and go DO? Also don't even have to do an SMP rather just retake classes you did poorly in.

2,360 DO graduates went into the match and over 74% secured a spot with an ACGME accredited residency (Source: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf) 20% went into IM (over 18% in FM the "undesriable" residency). EM had 9.7% and Anesthesiology had 95 or 5.4% of DOs matched.

I understand the belief of being below average, but statistically, if you do average, you can secure an ACGME spot (which is being unified anyways) and FM didn't even have the highest percentage. Also, most settled with the AOA instead so not as many DO students applied. I don't understand your bias against DO school.

 

[deleted248403]

I understand the belief of being below average, but statistically, if you do average, you can secure an ACGME spot (which is being unified anyways) and FM didn't even have the highest percentage. Also, most settled with the AOA instead so not as many DO students applied. I don't understand your bias against DO school.

1) I think you misunderstood mid life's point but I'll let her clear that up for you
2) did you read my post at all? DOs have done fine in the match historically but going forward the future doesn't look as bright

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't understand your bias against DO school.

Since this is SDN, you're undoubtedly used to seeing asinine DO vs. MD wars. I don't have a bias against DOs or DO schools. My bias is against the idea that it's important to hurry into med school at the expense of good academic preparation.

Let me elaborate on this part, which imho is the only part that could reasonably be perceived as anti-DO.

Bottom line, it's up to you whether you choose to take a few semesters' worth of A's and a not-complete-crap MCAT and get into a med school quickly, or play the game and get into a good med school more slowly..

The quick path likely excludes good DO schools like PCOM, CCOM, DMU, and LECOM. There are more good DO schools; these are just the ones that I really wanted to get into but got rejected, because I wasn't clearly academically prepared in my first misguided pre-redemption app cycle. (The DO school that I did get into wasn't terribly concerned with my academic preparation, which I consider irresponsible. What happened after that is a really, really long story that can be found in the nontrad success thread)

I get PMs, constantly, asking whether "it will be ok" to go DO. I always say that for any career goal in medicine, you can get there from DO school. There's a long, long list of famous/prestigious/imfluential DOs, from Colbert's orthopod to MD school faculty to Dr. Jadick etc, and a DO could be surgeon general. But if a premed is academically unprepared, immature, lazy and/or naive, high aspirations or even moderate aspirations are completely delusional.

Best of luck to you.

 

[darklabel]

Since this is SDN, you're undoubtedly used to seeing asinine DO vs. MD wars. I don't have a bias against DOs or DO schools. My bias is against the idea that it's important to hurry into med school at the expense of good academic preparation.

Let me elaborate on this part, which imho is the only part that could reasonably be perceived as anti-DO.

The quick path likely excludes good DO schools like PCOM, CCOM, DMU, and LECOM. There are more good DO schools; these are just the ones that I really wanted to get into but got rejected, because I wasn't clearly academically prepared in my first misguided pre-redemption app cycle. (The DO school that I did get into wasn't terribly concerned with my academic preparation, which I consider irresponsible. What happened after that is a really, really long story that can be found in the nontrad success thread)

I get PMs, constantly, asking whether "it will be ok" to go DO. I always say that for any career goal in medicine, you can get there from DO school. There's a long, long list of famous/prestigious/imfluential DOs, from Colbert's orthopod to MD school faculty to Dr. Jadick etc, and a DO could be surgeon general. But if a premed is academically unprepared, immature, lazy and/or naive, high aspirations or even moderate aspirations are completely delusional.

Best of luck to you.

You labeled DO school with Carib, this isn't MD vs DO (MD undoubtedly always wins), but Caribbean is just a horrible option in all ways. In the road to GPA redemption, 1 - 2 years (especially for career changers/post-bacc) is far better than 5+ years of no guarantee to MD. DO at least has a guarantee as a graduate that as an average student you will get into a residency as opposed to Carrib where only the top are getting mediocre - bad residency spots.

 

[MRhI]

To the OP &#8211; it's a ton of work, but doable.

I graduated college with <2.8 c/sGPA and <32 MCAT. I'm still not sure how, but I was VERY fortunate to receive an acceptance to an SMP (never really considered doing a postbac since I was a Bio major in undergrad and didn't think repeating classes would help me as much). Long story short, I had no business getting into the SMP with those stats, but I ran with the opportunity, worked my tail off for two years and ended up getting accepted to 5 allopathic schools including my top choice.

By no means do I think my story is the norm, but it is POSSIBLE as long as you have the right mind set and put the time/effort in.

 

[Kentobari]

To the OP – it’s a ton of work, but doable.

I graduated college with <2.8 c/sGPA and <32 MCAT. I’m still not sure how, but I was VERY fortunate to receive an acceptance to an SMP (never really considered doing a postbac since I was a Bio major in undergrad and didn't think repeating classes would help me as much). Long story short, I had no business getting into the SMP with those stats, but I ran with the opportunity, worked my tail off for two years and ended up getting accepted to 5 allopathic schools including my top choice.

By no means do I think my story is the norm, but it is POSSIBLE as long as you have the right mind set and put the time/effort in.

Does <32 mean 30 or 31? With a 30/31, why would you not expect to get accepted into an SMP?

 

[MRhI]

I should have been more clear, the 32ish on the MCAT came after I was already in the SMP. When I first graduated college, I was accepted to the SMP with a 27 on the MCAT (which combined with the <2.8 GPA is pretty bad). Wasn't trying to make any statements about getting into SMPs, just simply saying that a brutal GPA won't kill your chances even if you don't have a stellar MCAT.

 

[hofodomo]

I should have been more clear, the 32ish on the MCAT came after I was already in the SMP. When I first graduated college, I was accepted to the SMP with a 27 on the MCAT (which combined with the <2.8 GPA is pretty bad). Wasn't trying to make any statements about getting into SMPs, just simply saying that a brutal GPA won't kill your chances even if you don't have a stellar MCAT.

I'm just curious (I have similar stats as you), which SMP did you attend? Even though SMPs say they'll look at your entire app, usually the average GPAs are a notch above 3.0. I'm quite understandably worried!

Thanks for your time!

 

[Rippy087]

I was accepted to an SMP with a 2.96 and 29 MCAT. Killed my two year SMP with a 4.0 GPA and improved the MCAT to 32. Ended up getting accepted to 4 MD schools. It will take a lot of work, but it is possible. PM me if you have any questions.

 

[darklabel]

1) I think you misunderstood mid life's point but I'll let her clear that up for you
2) did you read my post at all? DOs have done fine in the match historically but going forward the future doesn't look as bright

ACGME is absorbing AOA in order to help end DO bias and end the redundant system previously used. There are no more allopathic residencies technically and in fact, the merger would bring more DOs into the mix since over half of DOs didn't even bother trying to match in ACGME. Also, idk why you say just because Allopathic school numbers are rising it means they automatically get the spots over DOs. Most DOs who know whats good for them take the USMLE anyways to have a chance.

According to the article you're refering to (Here it is I believe?: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200 ) no distiction is made between allopathic and osteopathic just "US Medical schools" and fazing out foreign graduates. No where is listed Osteopathic schools are getting shafted. Maybe this is the wrong article, but right now, its working harshly against IMGs rather than DOs.

But seriously OP, go USMD if you can, if not DO is still a good backup option. If you want access to as many opportunities as possible, MD is the way to go, but DO doesn't necessarily close doors completely and the trend is going up for # of DOs in "Allo" residencies.

 

[UTsksk]

When people with sub 3.0 GPAs come to the postbac forum asking for advice for career changers they get the usual SDN run-around -- "Change careers, it's too difficult/will take too long to get into a US MD school. If you really want it, plan to spend 3+ years to get in."

But, how many people have taken this route? How many people have actually grinded for 4 years to get into a US MD school? I've been on SDN for a while, I spend a lot of time reading the boards and I also have spent a lot of time on mdapplicants.com and I can only say I've come across <15 people that have taken this route and are documented.

Where are all the others? Anyone else have stories to share about their experience of coming back from a low gpa by killing a career-changer postbac and MCAT, killing an SMP then getting getting an acceptance to a US MD school after 3+ years of hard work?

Going into my 4th semester in my postbac I can't help but let my eyes wander down the DO/Carib path. But I somewhat envision myself trying to get into a competitive surgical residency so DO/Carib is not the ideal option.

I've already read the non-trad success story thread which is where I got a lot of good advice and heard good stories from. But even in that thread not too many people do the true "4+ year gpa comeback path" and they just do a portion of it. I've read most of the low gpa thread here in the postbac forum. You can find some good nuggets in there but I'm tired of reading all these plans of grand comebacks and castle building in there just to see these posters disappear and never come back to share their stories.

I shadowed a DO who is an ENT/Facial Plastics. In my opinion, that's competitive, but what do I know?

 

[deleted248403]

ACGME is absorbing AOA in order to help end DO bias and end the redundant system previously used. There are no more allopathic residencies technically and in fact, the merger would bring more DOs into the mix since over half of DOs didn't even bother trying to match in ACGME. Also, idk why you say just because Allopathic school numbers are rising it means they automatically get the spots over DOs. Most DOs who know whats good for them take the USMLE anyways to have a chance.

According to the article you're refering to (Here it is I believe?: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200 ) no distiction is made between allopathic and osteopathic just "US Medical schools" and fazing out foreign graduates. No where is listed Osteopathic schools are getting shafted. Maybe this is the wrong article, but right now, its working harshly against IMGs rather than DOs.

But seriously OP, go USMD if you can, if not DO is still a good backup option. If you want access to as many opportunities as possible, MD is the way to go, but DO doesn't necessarily close doors completely and the trend is going up for # of DOs in "Allo" residencies.

You misunderstand whats happening with the ACGME and DO merger thing - the residencies will still be distinct, and you will still take the COMPLEX and I the USMLE. And residencies do not have to accept either. It just makes the process more uniform.

DOs are currently considered 2nd class citizens when it comes to allopathic residencies. So, with the number of allopathic graduates going up, the number of slots of DOs will go down, and IMG/FMGs naturally. So, how are you not seeing where DOs will lose out on allopathic residencies? There are going to more allopathic grads, so less spots for DOs. Its pretty simple.

As someone said, there will always be allopathic residency spots for the well qualified DO/IMG/FMG but it just means those stats are going to have to be more impressive than previous years, and the number of slots available will be reduced.

 

[deleted248403]

I shadowed a DO who is an ENT/Facial Plastics. In my opinion, that's competitive, but what do I know?

Its not a question of what people are in now - but what it will be like when you are entering residencies... so historical data is pretty useless in this

 

[darklabel]

You misunderstand whats happening with the ACGME and DO merger thing - the residencies will still be distinct, and you will still take the COMPLEX and I the USMLE. And residencies do not have to accept either. It just makes the process more uniform.

DOs are currently considered 2nd class citizens when it comes to allopathic residencies. So, with the number of allopathic graduates going up, the number of slots of DOs will go down, and IMG/FMGs naturally. So, how are you not seeing where DOs will lose out on allopathic residencies? There are going to more allopathic grads, so less spots for DOs. Its pretty simple.

As someone said, there will always be allopathic residency spots for the well qualified DO/IMG/FMG but it just means those stats are going to have to be more impressive than previous years, and the number of slots available will be reduced.

What you're saying sounds anecdotal since you're saying all DOs are seen as second class. I doubt the average DO will be SOL in not getting a residency rather the more competitive ones will just be as hard as its always been (FM, Peds and IM will always be a pretty safe bet). Also we don't know what will happen on future matches except speculation (such as saying DOs are seen second class even if they've made great strides to remove this recognition).

For instance I can say that the less competitive residencies will be fine for DO since an increase in enrollment in MD will just have more MDs fighting for the top positions instead of just "settling" for the less competitive ones.

I guess let's just wait and see what happens in the 2015 match.

 

[deleted248403]

What you're saying sounds anecdotal since you're saying all DOs are seen as second class. I doubt the average DO will be SOL in not getting a residency rather the more competitive ones will just be as hard as its always been (FM, Peds and IM will always be a pretty safe bet). Also we don't know what will happen on future matches except speculation (such as saying DOs are seen second class even if they've made great strides to remove this recognition).

For instance I can say that the less competitive residencies will be fine for DO since an increase in enrollment in MD will just have more MDs fighting for the top positions instead of just "settling" for the less competitive ones.

I guess let's just wait and see what happens in the 2015 match.

Thats the match I will be in - and most of my info comes from conversations our admin has had with our student body about the 2015 match...

And pre-meds calling something ancedotal? really? Ok.... when you get there, let me know. I'm not justifying it or saying I agree with it - but its just a matter of fact

 

[darklabel]

Thats the match I will be in - and most of my info comes from conversations our admin has had with our student body about the 2015 match...

And pre-meds calling something ancedotal? really? Ok.... when you get there, let me know. I'm not justifying it or saying I agree with it - but its just a matter of fact

I'm not saying I know more than you in any way and I'm sure you know more on this matter than I do (I don't know if you're MD or DO). I read as much as I can about residency crunch since my GPA is a little shy of MD averages so I'm still deciding whether to go DO or try exclusively for MD.

When it comes to harder residencies I understand that with new MD schools DO are more at a disadvantage now for competitive residencies(unless more slots open up, which can happen), but I've never heard of an issue of average DO not being able to match AT ALL (which is what you're implying). What I'm getting from you is that you need stellar grades and ECs just to match into FM/Peds etc and yet seats do continue to go unfilled and new residencies opening up for FM (albiet in places people may not want to go). New MD schools opening up doesn't mean they all will go gunning for the lower end residencies.

But we'll see, you're a med student and I'm a lowly pre med.

 

[MH1983]

To the OP from someone who was in your same situation... I wanted to get into a US MD school as well and applied to 50+ schools only to get rejected over, over, and over again. The simple fact is that MD schools do not accept as many nontraditional grads as US DO schools. My advice to you would be to really research DO schools (as in, something other than reading the SDN forums...). Try to find a local DO to shadow. Research AOA surgical residencies (not to mention, basing such a huge decision on the fact that you "might" want to be a surgeon and believe in order to do this you need to match to a "competitive" ACGME accredited residency... to put it nicely, is extremely naive). Two years ago I too felt that DO schools were a "back up" and that going to a DO school would make me less of a physician. Two years later, I'm well on my way to becoming a licensed physician to practice in the US...which is all that matters. If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor, period...whichever way will get you there. The reality is that US DO schools are much, much more accepting of nontraditional grads...which I for one couldn't be happier about. The caliber of students at my school is astounding.

As reference, my undergrad GPA was 2.6... I took 2 semesters of postbac science and got a 31 MCAT. Oh and if you couldn't tell... I'm a second year DO student

 

[smiley27]

To the OP from someone who was in your same situation... I wanted to get into a US MD school as well and applied to 50+ schools only to get rejected over, over, and over again. The simple fact is that MD schools do not accept as many nontraditional grads as US DO schools. My advice to you would be to really research DO schools (as in, something other than reading the SDN forums...). Try to find a local DO to shadow. Research AOA surgical residencies (not to mention, basing such a huge decision on the fact that you "might" want to be a surgeon and believe in order to do this you need to match to a "competitive" ACGME accredited residency... to put it nicely, is extremely naive). Two years ago I too felt that DO schools were a "back up" and that going to a DO school would make me less of a physician. Two years later, I'm well on my way to becoming a licensed physician to practice in the US...which is all that matters. If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor, period...whichever way will get you there. The reality is that US DO schools are much, much more accepting of nontraditional grads...which I for one couldn't be happier about. The caliber of students at my school is astounding.

As reference, my undergrad GPA was 2.6... I took 2 semesters of postbac science and got a 31 MCAT. Oh and if you couldn't tell... I'm a second year DO student 🙂

I've already decided that I am interested in a competitive surgical field (plastics, neuro, ortho) based on my current clinical research experience and shadowing (clinic and OR). My understanding is that DO schools primarily train primary care physicians and not focused on producing surgeons. I obviously don't know for sure what I will want to go into yet but my current interest in surgery leads me to NOT want to go the DO/carib route. For you to say that it was "extremely naive" for me to base an important career decision on my interests is itself naive. Besides, there is a bias against DO's (which I won't go into- I'm tired of all the MD vs. DO back and forth on here and I've made my decision) and I don't want to deal with "I should've or could've" for the rest of my life.

Why didn't you apply to MD SMPs after your postbac and MCAT?

 

[MH1983]

I've already decided that I am interested in a competitive surgical field (plastics, neuro, ortho) based on my current clinical research experience and shadowing (clinic and OR). My understanding is that DO schools primarily train primary care physicians and not focused on producing surgeons. I obviously don't know for sure what I will want to go into yet but my current interest in surgery leads me to NOT want to go the DO/carib route. For you to say that it was "extremely naive" for me to base an important career decision on my interests is itself naive. Besides, there is a bias against DO's (which I won't go into- I'm tired of all the MD vs. DO back and forth on here and I've made my decision) and I don't want to deal with "I should've or could've" for the rest of my life.

Why didn't you apply to MD SMPs after your postbac and MCAT?

Yikes... I was trying to help but clearly as noble as my intentions were, I should have kept my mouth shut. Listen, I only mean this in the nicest way possible, but you are misinformed about DO schools. SDN is but a microcosm of the "real world" and any practicing physician worth their salt will tell you that the "DO bias" is almost entirely a myth. True a lot of DO schools emphasize primary care, but that in no way implies that most of the students match into a primary care specialty. There were students from my school who matched surgery at Loma Linda and neurology at Duke. I was simply attempting to reach out and try to influence you to expand your horizons beyond the views held by members of SDN. Have you shadowed any DOs or asked the clinicians you shadowed their opinions on their DO counterparts? I have and and I can tell you that not once has a "DO bias" ever come up in a "real world" conversation other than from me asking about it based on things I heard on SDN.

No school is "focused on producing surgeons" or any other specialty for that matter. I can tell you that the view from "the other side" as it were is much different than that of someone who is still in the application process. To be clear, to base a career decision on your interests and to write off a legitimate route to achieve those goals based on hearsay and personal bias is indeed naive. Sorry to rub you the wrong way, but I believe that I am entitled to that opinion as someone who has gone through the process and been accepted to a medical school. As for the SMP, I didn't feel the need to spend additional time and money... I started the process with the end goal of getting into medical school and I accomplished that with the least amount of intervening time wasted. As for the "should've"s and "could've"s... I sincerely hope for your sake that you are accepted to an MD school. I would hate for you not to and second guess your decision not to apply DO and be on the path to that coveted surgical career while you spend another wasted year reapplying.

Best of luck to you.

 

[smiley27]

Okay thank you for your noble intentions but I tried to make it clear that I was not interested in the DO/Carib path in my original post but I guess some people can't help but make it into a MD vs. DO battle or try to convince people of going DO over MD. Seems like you're out to prove something. If you're happy with your decision of going DO, great for you, but not everyone is interested in going DO.

Yikes... I was trying to help but clearly as noble as my intentions were, I should have kept my mouth shut. Listen, I only mean this in the nicest way possible, but you are misinformed about DO schools. SDN is but a microcosm of the "real world" and any practicing physician worth their salt will tell you that the "DO bias" is almost entirely a myth. True a lot of DO schools emphasize primary care, but that in no way implies that most of the students match into a primary care specialty. There were students from my school who matched surgery at Loma Linda and neurology at Duke. I was simply attempting to reach out and try to influence you to expand your horizons beyond the views held by members of SDN. Have you shadowed any DOs or asked the clinicians you shadowed their opinions on their DO counterparts? I have and and I can tell you that not once has a "DO bias" ever come up in a "real world" conversation other than from me asking about it based on things I heard on SDN.

No school is "focused on producing surgeons" or any other specialty for that matter. I can tell you that the view from "the other side" as it were is much different than that of someone who is still in the application process. To be clear, to base a career decision on your interests and to write off a legitimate route to achieve those goals based on hearsay and personal bias is indeed naive. Sorry to rub you the wrong way, but I believe that I am entitled to that opinion as someone who has gone through the process and been accepted to a medical school. As for the SMP, I didn't feel the need to spend additional time and money... I started the process with the end goal of getting into medical school and I accomplished that with the least amount of intervening time wasted. As for the "should've"s and "could've"s... I sincerely hope for your sake that you are accepted to an MD school. I would hate for you not to and second guess your decision not to apply DO and be on the path to that coveted surgical career while you spend another wasted year reapplying.

Best of luck to you.

 

[jl lin]

I think the surgery route with DO is a little tougher,but let me tell you where I am coming from with that. A big part of my nursing career was spent in cardio thoracic surgical-post-op recovery. So admitting that CT surgery is a highly political, and somewhat limited specialization of surgery, DOs aren't used quite as much as MDs. It does depend on the hospital/program, but this has been my colleagues and my experience. It has been done, but I know the people that have done it seemed to have more challenges and needed more time to make in-roads in the area, post surgical, CT fellowships. Surgical residency in general already are long, hard road, apart from fellowship.

Bear in mind that I am not speaking of general surgery, but for more competitive areas, such as CT or neurosurg. Again, there are exceptions, but in the many places I have worked, it has not been the rule for DOs. And this is twice as true when you are talking pediatric surgical subspecialties, for such areas as I have mentioned.

So, even though you are supposed to keep an open mind, at least until you get through most clerkships, it is reasonable to be alert about this ahead of time.

I do feel that for mostly any other medical residency, or even OBGYN, there is more acceptance of DOs. Highly specialized surgery, and least as long as I been a nurse--not saying how long, 😉, seems way more open to highly competitive MD grads. So, for heading up something like a fetal surgical program, there's quite a ways to go for DOs IMHO.

 

[darklabel]

Okay thank you for your noble intentions but I tried to make it clear that I was not interested in the DO/Carib path in my original post but I guess some people can't help but make it into a MD vs. DO battle or try to convince people of going DO over MD. Seems like you're out to prove something. If you're happy with your decision of going DO, great for you, but not everyone is interested in going DO.

I wasn't trying to make it an MD vs DO but more DO vs Caribbean. If you read the posts, I tell you to go MD if at all possible to actually make your life easier. But saying DOs will not match in the future at all isn't true, but MDs will always have an easier time matching (especially in competitive fields).

To get on topic, I was thinking about going to G'Town SMP next year, but then I heard from students currently in the program only roughly 10% get A's and anything less will not get you an interview there. I wasn't too keen on taking 40-60k$ on a gamble since I'm sure everyone is gunning to be the top 10% there. There are a few stories (This thread has some info: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=865965) of successes, but I usually don't hear about the failures in SDN since I'm sure people aren't too keen on reporting it.

Tufts is a great one and Cincinnati's is another one to consider (http://www.med.uc.edu/physiology/ms-program.htm). All have great success stories (and maybe a few heartbreakers) and if you're 4th year in post-bacc (and I'm assuming you're getting A's) then maybe you can try applying SMP and MD at the same time and just see what happens? I know some USMD schools look at the last 2 - 4 years so you'll be at a huge advantage (unless your cGPA and sGPA is below 3.0, then you'll get auto-screened out)

Once again, sorry about sparking some sort of DO war here. I misread your post thinking you were interested. If you're getting A's in 2 - 4 years of post bacc in hard sciences, maybe you won't need an SMP (always hearing success stories that way also). I've researched the heck out of SMPs and got into a few (one good one, a few crappy ones).

Good luck.

 

[deleted248403]

But saying DOs will not match in the future at all isn't true, but MDs will always have an easier time matching (especially in competitive fields).

No one ever said DOs won't match but it will get harder in the future with the number of DOs in allopathic residencies going down. And the difficulty of DOs matching will not be limited to the traditionally competitive residencies. This was never an MD vs DO war but rather an assessment of the future and not a "I know a DO neurosurgeon" discussion.

Being a US MD candidate will always be the best option for keeping career options open.

OP - sorry to derail this slightly but I think its worth looking at the way residencies are going when making a long term plan. And the historical avenue for DOs (and more so IMG/FMG) into allopathic residencies is going to get a lot narrower

 

[Sometimes]

*

 

[smiley27]

OP - sorry to derail this slightly but I think its worth looking at the way residencies are going when making a long term plan. And the historical avenue for DOs (and more so IMG/FMG) into allopathic residencies is going to get a lot narrower

Having the low gpa that I have I researched extensively the DO/Carib route and I've concluded that it will be very challenging to even match into a specialized surgery residency, forget about matching into a "top" residency. Reading the orthogate and uncleharvey forums confirms this. I work for a fellowship program director (Harvard) and I'm pretty sure he hasn't selected a DO/FMG in 10 years.

Knowing that graduates of the best residency programs have the best job options I don't want to handicap myself in any way possible which is why I am planning to do an SMP if I have to on top of the already two years I'm doing in the postbac.


I have nothing against DOs/FMGs but I believe that route doesn't suite every applicant.

 

[Stephannie]

Sorry if this was already asked but is an SMP better than a Masters in Biomedical sciences?

Are there any SMPs in Florida?

 

[common man]

Sorry if this was already asked but is an SMP better than a Masters in Biomedical sciences?

Are there any SMPs in Florida?

usf - scroll to the bottom

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=640302

 

[Stephannie]

usf - scroll to the bottom

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=640302

Thank you! would you recommend an SMP or Biomedical Sciences master?

 

[darklabel]

Sorry if this was already asked but is an SMP better than a Masters in Biomedical sciences?

Are there any SMPs in Florida?

Their IMS program's deadline has passed but you can try to apply to the MSMS program.

 

[thekain91]

I was accepted to an SMP with a 2.96 and 29 MCAT. Killed my two year SMP with a 4.0 GPA and improved the MCAT to 32. Ended up getting accepted to 4 MD schools. It will take a lot of work, but it is possible. PM me if you have any questions.

For all those who might read this post thinking that Rippy is a good example of being able to make it to an MD with a low GPA- please be forewarned that after some research I found out that the "2.9" is actually his cGPA and the sGPA was 3.4! And he has extenuating circumstances (health) for two bad undergrad years followed by very good upward trend... So... I guess it is kind of irresponsible for him to throw around his stats as he does without telling the whole story- I just wanted to warn people before they got too excited.

 

[death prophet]

For all those who might read this post thinking that Rippy is a good example of being able to make it to an MD with a low GPA- please be forewarned that after some research I found out that the "2.9" is actually his cGPA and the sGPA was 3.4! And he has extenuating circumstances (health) for two bad undergrad years followed by very good upward trend... So... I guess it is kind of irresponsible for him to throw around his stats as he does without telling the whole story- I just wanted to warn people before they got too excited.

Thanks for bumping this old thread thekain91, although I don't know why you would just to call out Rippy. I am the original poster of this thread (with a new account) and a year and a half later I am pleased to report that I am indeed still on the same track, with nearly identical numbers as Rippy. I have/had a horrendous undergraduate gpa and recently completed a career-changer postbac and gained acceptance to several competitive SMPs, and will be starting this August, as well as submitting my medical school application for the first time.

I hope to bump this thread in the future with a medical school acceptance to give hope to those crazy and tenacious enough to attempt the 4-year MD come-back plan. Don't let anyone (especially on SDN) discourage you. If you want it bad enough then make it happen cap'n.