Submitted Manuscript vs. Accepted Publication

[balopathic45]

Hi guys,

I am currently working at a neuroimaging lab that is fast-tracking 3 manuscripts for journal submission, all of which I am a co-author of. However, I'm applying to med school in June (and anyone who is in research can attest to this) so there is no guarantee any of them will be accepted and published by then.

My question is, can I list submitted or in-progress manuscripts as "activities." Also, this may be a difficult question to answer, how differently do adcoms view submitted manuscript vs. accepted publication?

Thanks!

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[Lucca]

Yes, it is perfectly acceptable to list things as submitted. I'm guessing since faculty do it on their CVs / web pages that it is acceptable on an application:
e.g.
Research description
"Work culminated in manuscript submitted to ImpactPointsForDays Journal. Citation, Submitted."

I doubt there's a big difference in how adcoms will view submitted v. published; both are very rare and laudable accomplishments for an undergrad.

 

[bearintraining]

Hi guys,

I am currently working at a neuroimaging lab that is fast-tracking 3 manuscripts for journal submission, all of which I am a co-author of. However, I'm applying to med school in June (and anyone who is in research can attest to this) so there is no guarantee any of them will be accepted and published by then.

My question is, can I list submitted or in-progress manuscripts as "activities." Also, this may be a difficult question to answer, how differently do adcoms view submitted manuscript vs. accepted publication?

Thanks!

List what you have when you're submitting AMCAS (eg 1 accepted, 1 submitted). It is more favourable to submit AMCAS early than wait for the publication to be accepted. Most schools allow updates (although some only after IIs)

 

[balopathic45]

List what you have when you're submitting AMCAS (eg 1 accepted, 1 submitted). It is more favourable to submit AMCAS early than wait for the publication to be accepted. Most schools allow updates (although some only after IIs)

thanks! congrats on the acceptance btw 🙂

 

[bearintraining]

thanks! congrats on the acceptance btw 🙂

Thank you and good luck to you - both on dealing with reviewers and the upcoming cycle

 

[Reckoner]

Hi guys,

I am currently working at a neuroimaging lab that is fast-tracking 3 manuscripts for journal submission, all of which I am a co-author of. However, I'm applying to med school in June (and anyone who is in research can attest to this) so there is no guarantee any of them will be accepted and published by then.

My question is, can I list submitted or in-progress manuscripts as "activities." Also, this may be a difficult question to answer, how differently do adcoms view submitted manuscript vs. accepted publication?

Thanks!

I had a couple papers that were in submission when I applied (one of them still is ). I listed them under the entries for the labs they came from (one from each lab) Each entry was something like:

Professor lab - x years
-project description
-side project description
-2 poster presentations at impressive sounding but not actually impressive conference
-Reckoner et. al, Paper name. 2016. In submission

Adcoms are going to be less impressed with a submitted manuscript than with a publication. Think about the barriers to publication vs. submission. One requires peer-review by experts in the field. The other takes an internet connection. But chances are it won't matter much. Having pubs is great, but their absence won't count as a negative. Good luck!

 

[Reckoner]

Also if you have something accepted after you submit your application that can make for a nice update letter

 

[bearintraining]

Also if you have something accepted after you submit your application that can make for a nice update letter

+1

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Yep, agree with others that there's nothing wrong with listing submitted papers. The meaningful part (conducting research and writing it up) is complete, so they're not really weighed much less than accepted manuscripts. Congratulations on the submissions!

 

[Goro]

Any fool can write "Manuscript submitted." or "MS in progress". For the latter, it's accurate even if you only have written the title page.



So it doesn't count until it's "in press" or "published."

Hi guys,

I am currently working at a neuroimaging lab that is fast-tracking 3 manuscripts for journal submission, all of which I am a co-author of. However, I'm applying to med school in June (and anyone who is in research can attest to this) so there is no guarantee any of them will be accepted and published by then.

My question is, can I list submitted or in-progress manuscripts as "activities." Also, this may be a difficult question to answer, how differently do adcoms view submitted manuscript vs. accepted publication?

Thanks!

 

[MaxPlancker]

No harm in listing it, but it will basically be ignored so if you have something more meaningful to write, I would write that instead in the limited space AMCAS provides. I feel like the only exception to this is if the person has a proven track-record of publishing in similar journals (e.g. faculty listing submitted manuscripts are probably viewed slightly differently for this reason). Not many, if any, pre-meds will have this proven track-record though. Then again, if you have a proven track-record, it is usually not useful to list another manuscript in submission lol.

 

[JustAPhD]

Any fool can write "Manuscript submitted." or "MS in progress". For the latter, it's accurate even if you only have written the title page.

So it doesn't count until it's "in press" or "published."

"MS in progress" is what you tell your PI/thesis adviser when you've been procrastinating and truly only have the title page done.

 

[bearintraining]

Any fool can write "Manuscript submitted." or "MS in progress". For the latter, it's accurate even if you only have written the title page.



So it doesn't count until it's "in press" or "published."

Goro,
While I agree in theory... I would argue that "Manuscript submitted" really means it's polished and ready for review... which is a significant hurdle.. and perhaps under specific circumstances, the submitted confidential draft may even be requested... Manuscript in progress - well, that's a different story. It's always in progress 🙂

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Goro,
While I agree in theory... I would argue that "Manuscript submitted" really means it's polished and ready for review... which is a significant hurdle.. and perhaps under specific circumstances, the submitted confidential draft may even be requested... Manuscript in progress - well, that's a different story. It's always in progress 🙂

Agree with you here.

At some point in your career a "submitted" manuscript is no longer meaningful and you should only list papers once they're "in press" (e.g., it's a bit unusual to see people applying for faculty positions with "submitted" manuscripts listed on a CV). However, for a medical school applicant, I see submitted papers as being pretty meaningful. Of course, to each their own! Just because I approach an applicant one way doesn't mean another interviewer/reviewer would as well.

 

[bearintraining]

Agree with you here.

At some point in your career a "submitted" manuscript is no longer meaningful and you should only list papers once they're "in press" (e.g., it's a bit unusual to see people applying for faculty positions with "submitted" manuscripts listed on a CV). However, for a medical school applicant, I see submitted papers as being pretty meaningful. Of course, to each their own! Just because I approach an applicant one way doesn't mean another interviewer/reviewer would as well.

Also: no self-respecting PI will allow an "unpolished" or "crap" manuscript to be submitted for review.

 

[Law2Doc]

Goro,
While I agree in theory... I would argue that "Manuscript submitted" really means it's polished and ready for review... which is a significant hurdle.. and perhaps under specific circumstances, the submitted confidential draft may even be requested... Manuscript in progress - well, that's a different story. It's always in progress 🙂

In these days of online submission, you can easily cobble together a few pages of drivel, submit it online, and have a submission number as proof of submission without ever having a prayer of being accepted. So "Submitted" does not always mean it's polished and ready for review. It just means you pulled the trigger on something so you could honestly say "manuscript submitted", ready or not. Schools can counter this by asking for a copy, but it's much easier to just ignore everything that hasn't yet been "accepted for publication" or "in press".

 

[Law2Doc]

Also: no self-respecting PI will allow an "unpolished" or "crap" manuscript to be submitted for review.

Yes but you don't always need a PI to do research...

 

[SpartanWolverine]

In these days of online submission, you can easily cobble together a few pages of drivel, submit it online, and have a submission number as proof of submission without ever having a prayer of being accepted. So "Submitted" does not mean it's polished and ready for review. Schools can counter this by asking for a copy, but it's easier to just ignore everything that hasn't been "accepted for publication" or "in press".

I definitely see what you're saying. I suppose I'm too trusting that the student/PI would not submit unless they had produced a manuscript that is of sufficient quality to be reasonably accepted after a round or two of edits. I can see where this assumption would fall short of reality.

 

[bearintraining]

In these days of online submission, you can easily cobble together a few pages of drivel, submit it online, and have a submission number as proof of submission without ever having a prayer of being accepted. So "Submitted" does not always mean it's polished and ready for review. It just means you pulled the trigger on something so you could honestly say "manuscript submitted", ready or not. Schools can counter this by asking for a copy, but it's much easier to just ignore everything that hasn't yet been "accepted for publication" or "in press".

I understand your point, but again, unlikely. It can literally take days just to get a manuscript in the right format for a journal. This is after it is complete otherwise (I've had to reformat manuscripts after rejections, without altering text, more than once, - so I know this from experience). Every journal I know of does a precursory check to see whether you've abided by the rules and guidelines. Thus your paper will only last for a day or two before immediately being sent back (and in many cases before even going to the editor at all), and therefore no longer "submitted".

Yes but you don't always need a PI to do research...

Sure. Again, a student would be stupid to submit a half-assed paper on their own. This is really the same issue as being able to account for your hours on the AMCAS activities. Anyone can lie about it, but you'll be screwed if you're caught.

The practical reality is this: in 9o+% of the cases, it takes a huge amount of effort to not only conduct research, but to compile a manuscript and submit it. The difference between that and an accepted paper, is for sure more rigorous, due to it having gone through peer review and considered worthy. But to say that a manuscript submitted is just fluff is not within the realm of reality, IMO. The point here is that you want schools to understand that you've conducted significant amounts of work, and did not just do a bunch of grunt work that will never go anywhere. Whether ADCOMS really care, I don't know.. but I honestly don't see how this can hurt you.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I understand your point, but again, unlikely. It can literally take days just to get a manuscript in the right format for a journal. This is after it is complete otherwise (I've had to reformat manuscripts after rejections, without altering text, more than once, - so I know this from experience). Every journal I know of does a precursory check to see whether you've abided by the rules and guidelines. Thus your paper will only last for a day or two before immediately being sent back (and in many cases before even going to the editor at all), and therefore no longer "submitted".



Sure. Again, a student would be stupid to submit a half-assed paper on their own. This is really the same issue as being able to account for your hours on the AMCAS activities. Anyone can lie about it, but you'll be screwed if you're caught.

The practical reality is this: in 9o+% of the cases, it takes a huge amount of effort to not only conduct research, but to compile a manuscript and submit it. The difference between that and an accepted paper, is for sure more rigorous, due to it having gone through peer review and considered worthy. But to say that a manuscript submitted is just fluff is not within the realm of reality, IMO. The point here is that you want schools to understand that you've conducted significant amounts of work, and did not just do a bunch of grunt work that will never go anywhere. Whether ADCOMS really care, I don't know.. but I honestly don't see how this can hurt you.

It comes down to what a prudent student should do/would be expected to do and what a desperate premed might do in order to better their chances for acceptance. My limited admissions experience shows that there are enough desperate applicants out there that experienced reviewers need a certain standard of proof to take AMCAS/AACOMAS entries at face value.

But again, I can see in our minds how it seems ridiculous that anyone would go through the process of research and manuscript preparation just to submit something without the expectation that it would go on to review and publication.

 

[bearintraining]

Yeah. It just comes down to what a prudent student should do/would be expected to do and what a desperate premed might do in order to better their chances for acceptance. My limited admissions experience shows that there are enough desperate applicants out there that experienced reviewers need a certain standard of proof to take AMCAS/AACOMAS entries at face value.

But again, I can see in our minds how it seems ridiculous that anyone would go through the process of research and manuscript preparation just to submit something without the expectation that it would go on to review and publication.

People will always find ways to cheat. But the consequences are dire.

 

[Law2Doc]

People will always find ways to cheat. But the consequences are dire.

Well It's not really cheating or lying. The person would only be saying "submitted manuscript". Which is technically a true statement. But as I said, it's a moot strategy because Adcoms don't put value on mere submission.

 

[Law2Doc]

It comes down to what a prudent student should do/would be expected to do and what a desperate premed might do in order to better their chances for acceptance. My limited admissions experience shows that there are enough desperate applicants out there that experienced reviewers need a certain standard of proof to take AMCAS/AACOMAS entries at face value.

But again, I can see in our minds how it seems ridiculous that anyone would go through the process of research and manuscript preparation just to submit something without the expectation that it would go on to review and publication.

Absolutely. If someone gets into school because they have a long list of "submitted" papers, the next neurotic premed is going to feel pressure to "submit" stuff too. It may seem ridiculous to go through the hurdles and hassles of journal format just to submit something unpublishable, but you are looking at it as if the goal was to get published rather than the goal of having an extra submission to list on an application.

 

[minor.groove]

In these days of online submission, you can easily cobble together a few pages of drivel, submit it online, and have a submission number as proof of submission without ever having a prayer of being accepted. So "Submitted" does not always mean it's polished and ready for review. It just means you pulled the trigger on something so you could honestly say "manuscript submitted", ready or not. Schools can counter this by asking for a copy, but it's much easier to just ignore everything that hasn't yet been "accepted for publication" or "in press".

You could easily exchange "submission/submitted" in this statement with "published/in press" these days as well with the number of marginal or downright fraudulent journals. None of it means anything on it's own, only within the context of a larger narrative.

List them as "in submission" if doing so somehow adds context to your work. I probably wouldn't list them as an independent activity (i.e. there is an AMCAS options for "publications") but you could either put their title etc in your research activity (probably a waste of characters) or just add a line that you have X number of Y authorship articles in submission currently and are hoping for their publication in the reasonable future....

 

[mscs2014]

Just put that you've submitted whatever number of manuscripts in the activity description for the lab. That way you show productivity without making an entire activity entry for the submissions. This is what I did, and when I got good news (manuscript was submitted in April, accepted pending revisions in October, and officially accepted in November, so get ready to wait) it made for a great update that netted a couple II's immediately.

 

[balopathic45]

In these days of online submission, you can easily cobble together a few pages of drivel, submit it online, and have a submission number as proof of submission without ever having a prayer of being accepted. So "Submitted" does not always mean it's polished and ready for review. It just means you pulled the trigger on something so you could honestly say "manuscript submitted", ready or not. Schools can counter this by asking for a copy, but it's much easier to just ignore everything that hasn't yet been "accepted for publication" or "in press".

Any fool can write "Manuscript submitted." or "MS in progress". For the latter, it's accurate even if you only have written the title page.
So it doesn't count until it's "in press" or "published."

True, but do you think the context of the applicant (i.e. GPA, MCAT) would support the assumption that the manuscript isn't just a crappy paper I submitted online. Also, I could include the name of the last author (my PI) who is somewhat prominent in his field (almost 90 pubs with many to PLoS, PNAS, New England JM, etc) to lend credibility. What do you think? My whole point is that I want to show that given my circumstances (a third year who started research with this lab last year, applying to medical school in june) I did the most I could to contribute to producing a scientific paper.

 

[Goro]

Unless schools start asking for proof of submission, people can simply lie.

There's a reason why NIH doesn't let you have "manuscript submitted " on your Biosketch.

True, but do you think the context of the applicant (i.e. GPA, MCAT) would support the assumption that the manuscript isn't just a crappy paper I submitted online. Also, I could include the name of the last author (my PI) who is somewhat prominent in his field (almost 90 pubs with many to PLoS, PNAS, New England JM, etc) to lend credibility. What do you think? My whole point is that I want to show that given my circumstances (a third year who started research with this lab last year, applying to medical school in june) I did the most I could to contribute to producing a scientific paper.

 

[Law2Doc]

Unless schools start asking for proof of submission, people can simply lie...

Again this isn't outright lying if you've submitted "something". It's just highly misleading. Which is why schools appropriately ignore the submitted things.

 

[tensticks]

Hello there - just wanted all of your input on my current research publication situation. Recently I co-authored a research paper that got sent to Nucleic Acids Research for publication. They sent it back saying they would accept it with some revisions. Their comments were all stylistic criticisms, nothing about the meat of the paper itself or anything about having to gather more data or conduct further experiments. My PI says that if we address all the criticisms and send the manuscript back, they should accept it. Is it okay to say that my manuscript got accepted by a journal yet? I need to send update letters to schools and this would make a great addition considering it's my first publication. Thank you!

 

[justadream]

The difference between submitted and accepted is the same as the difference between submitting an application to HMS and being accepted to HMS.

Anyone can do the former. The latter is more difficult and thus much more valued.

 

[HybridEarth]

My humble opinion would be to include it as "provisionally accepted with revisions" - don't think it could really hurt that much at the end of the cycle. Congratulations

 

[bearintraining]

Hello there - just wanted all of your input on my current research publication situation. Recently I co-authored a research paper that got sent to Nucleic Acids Research for publication. They sent it back saying they would accept it with some revisions. Their comments were all stylistic criticisms, nothing about the meat of the paper itself or anything about having to gather more data or conduct further experiments. My PI says that if we address all the criticisms and send the manuscript back, they should accept it. Is it okay to say that my manuscript got accepted by a journal yet? I need to send update letters to schools and this would make a great addition considering it's my first publication. Thank you!

"Accepted pending minor revisions."

EDIT: just to clarify: Please make sure the editor actually used the word accepted somewhere in the response letter. Sending a manuscript back for revisions doesn't mean "provisionally accepted".

 

[tensticks]

The difference between submitted and accepted is the same as the difference between submitting an application to HMS and being accepted to HMS.

Anyone can do the former. The latter is more difficult and thus much more valued.

Yes I definitely agree with you. But with the timetable of then applications cycle, I would like to update schools now when they may still have interview spots left. That is why I'm thinking of writing something along the lines of what was just said above: "Accepted with minor revisions" Or "provisionally accepted with revisions."