substance abuse and back

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dpg

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I was formally kicked out of dental school based on having failed three of my twenty or so classes my first year of dental school. During that time I came to the schools Academic Advisor for help with my substance abuse problem, as it affected my academics. With a shrug he said to try calling the crisis hotline. This seemed impersonal so I did not. Ultimately I took medical leave to get a handle on my problem. During that time I was kicked out for having failed too many classes. However, other students with the same academic short comings were allowed to remediate the course work or made to repeat the year, but not thrown out of school. Now I have huge debt and no chance of getting into another school. I realize the stigma associated with this issue, but could use the good advice of someone in the know.Please only serious suggestions. :eek:

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dpg said:
I was formally kicked out of dental school based on having failed three of my twenty or so classes my first year of dental school. During that time I came to the schools Academic Advisor for help with my substance abuse problem, as it affected my academics. With a shrug he said to try calling the crisis hotline. This seemed impersonal so I did not. Ultimately I took medical leave to get a handle on my problem. During that time I was kicked out for having failed too many classes. However, other students with the same academic short comings were allowed to remediate the course work or made to repeat the year, but not thrown out of school. Now I have huge debt and no chance of getting into another school. I realize the stigma associated with this issue, but could use the good advice of someone in the know.Please only serious suggestions. :eek:

In order to help we might need some clarification. You were kicked out for failing 3/20 courses. PRIOR to this you approached the academic advisor to get assistance for the substance abuse issue.

Where does the medical LOA fit into all of this? The timeline seems iffy to me, so perhaps a clearer explanation would help.
 
dpg said:
I was formally kicked out of dental school based on having failed three of my twenty or so classes my first year of dental school. During that time I came to the schools Academic Advisor for help with my substance abuse problem, as it affected my academics. With a shrug he said to try calling the crisis hotline. This seemed impersonal so I did not. Ultimately I took medical leave to get a handle on my problem. During that time I was kicked out for having failed too many classes. However, other students with the same academic short comings were allowed to remediate the course work or made to repeat the year, but not thrown out of school. Now I have huge debt and no chance of getting into another school. I realize the stigma associated with this issue, but could use the good advice of someone in the know.Please only serious suggestions. :eek:
did you go to UNLV? Just curious cause the "terms" you are using are used at our school. If so, PM me.... we'll talk.
 
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I think you're screwed because you didn't follow the advice of the school. You made your bed, now lay in it and don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you becoming a drug addict and ruining your opportunity to do something most of us on this forum would figuratively (or literally for some of us :laugh: ) kill to do. Good luck in whatever you decide to do, but I do believe you're screwed.
 
ISU_Steve said:
You made your bed, now lay in it and don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you becoming a drug addict and ruining your opportunity to do something most of us on this forum would figuratively (or literally for some of us :laugh: ) kill to do. Good luck in whatever you decide to do, but I do believe you're screwed.

That's a pretty imature reply. Obviously you don't understand substance abuse problems/addicts. Tone it down a little.
 
Zurik5 said:
That's a pretty imature reply. Obviously you don't understand substance abuse problems/addicts. Tone it down a little.
I think I understand it very well- I come from a long line of alcoholics, not to mention I deal on a daily basis at work with alcoholics, pill poppers, IV drug addicts, and people who spend more than I make in a year on their support of the economy of Colombia.

This guy screwed up, and he's paying the price. No one put the needle in his arm, the pills in his stomach (even if they were prescribed that doesn't exclude him from the personal responsibility of managing his own life) or the nosecandy on his mirror EXCEPT HIM. He started down that road and while there are physiological issues with addiction- he is still the only one to blame.

I'm sorry, if you view me as immature simply because I speak my mind and I don't believe that I should coddle a person who has screwed their life up for the pursuit of personal pleasure, then you my colleague are oblivious and not seeing the fault in your statement. Were my comments unpleasant? Yes. Were they not in keeping with the spineless absolving nature of our society today? Yes. Were they uncalled for? Not in the slightest. Develop a thicker skin if you're offended by someone pointing out the truth.
 
ISU_Steve said:
I think I understand it very well- I come from a long line of alcoholics, not to mention I deal on a daily basis at work with alcoholics, pill poppers, IV drug addicts, and people who spend more than I make in a year on their support of the economy of Colombia.

This guy screwed up, and he's paying the price. No one put the needle in his arm, the pills in his stomach (even if they were prescribed that doesn't exclude him from the personal responsibility of managing his own life) or the nosecandy on his mirror EXCEPT HIM. He started down that road and while there are physiological issues with addiction- he is still the only one to blame.

I'm sorry, if you view me as immature simply because I speak my mind and I don't believe that I should coddle a person who has screwed their life up for the pursuit of personal pleasure, then you my colleague are oblivious and not seeing the fault in your statement. Were my comments unpleasant? Yes. Were they not in keeping with the spineless absolving nature of our society today? Yes. Were they uncalled for? Not in the slightest. Develop a thicker skin if you're offended by someone pointing out the truth.

sounds like you got a needle up your ass.

and yes, i am immature. :thumbup:
 
dentwannabe said:
sounds like you got a needle up your ass.

and yes, i am immature. :thumbup:

haha :laugh:
 
dentwannabe said:
and yes, i am immature. :thumbup:

At least you admit it. I have to give you some credit for that. Most people here won't. :thumbup: :laugh: :laugh:
 
dpg said:
I was formally kicked out of dental school based on having failed three of my twenty or so classes my first year of dental school. During that time I came to the schools Academic Advisor for help with my substance abuse problem, as it affected my academics. With a shrug he said to try calling the crisis hotline. This seemed impersonal so I did not. Ultimately I took medical leave to get a handle on my problem. During that time I was kicked out for having failed too many classes. However, other students with the same academic short comings were allowed to remediate the course work or made to repeat the year, but not thrown out of school. Now I have huge debt and no chance of getting into another school. I realize the stigma associated with this issue, but could use the good advice of someone in the know.Please only serious suggestions. :eek:

I wish you the best of luck. It's not an easy road.

ISU_Steve: quit kicking a man when he's down. Simply uncalled for. He asked for advice, not sympathy. If you don't have any, shut it.
 
ISU_Steve said:
Develop a thicker skin if you're offended by someone pointing out the truth.

You need to chill a little bit there ISU Steve. Your anal attitude must have something to do w/ the fact that you live in Terre Haute ;) You're not in dental school yet, and I've worked at a Hospital, also (for four years) so I have a pretty good idea of what’s going on with "users." As for coming from a long line of alcoholics? Common.... don't we all? Tone it down a bit, bud...this guy might actually need someone’s help, not their self-righteous replies. Being an EMT/Resp. therapist is a little different than being a dentist. You WILL have colleagues who are alcoholics/drug abusers, so you better get that stick out of your ass asap.
 
administrative decisions vary from campus to campus and dependent on the individual cases at hand. i would suggest working in what is known in the military as "chain of command"--start with the lowest person on the totem pole (eg student services) and work your way up, all the while exhausting each person's ability (or lack thereof) to assist you.

i think this case will ultimately end up in appeal, where you should get some form of legal consultation on the best way to present yourself to the committeee, or for a lawyer to take over the matter. i'm sure if you look hard enough that you'll find a lawyer that specializes in this specific situation that you describe and it wouldn't be a bad idea to search one as a first step.

all in all, i have to agree that your chances are dismal if the situation is not cleared up at this school that you used to attend. alternates should be sought and maybe this is a chapter of your life that serves to teach others the stark reality of substance abuse in our society. maybe you could check out ross, st george, or auc medical schools in the carribean... as long as the sun still shines, tomorrow's as bright of a day as you make it!

and why do you say you have no chance for admissions to dental school? get your gear straight, do another UG major, or master's or something, do the peace corps thing... keep deferring your loans!... you're good to go!
 
ISU_Steve said:
I think I understand it very well- I come from a long line of alcoholics, not to mention I deal on a daily basis at work with alcoholics, pill poppers, IV drug addicts, and people who spend more than I make in a year on their support of the economy of Colombia.

This guy screwed up, and he's paying the price. No one put the needle in his arm, the pills in his stomach (even if they were prescribed that doesn't exclude him from the personal responsibility of managing his own life) or the nosecandy on his mirror EXCEPT HIM. He started down that road and while there are physiological issues with addiction- he is still the only one to blame.

I'm sorry, if you view me as immature simply because I speak my mind and I don't believe that I should coddle a person who has screwed their life up for the pursuit of personal pleasure, then you my colleague are oblivious and not seeing the fault in your statement. Were my comments unpleasant? Yes. Were they not in keeping with the spineless absolving nature of our society today? Yes. Were they uncalled for? Not in the slightest. Develop a thicker skin if you're offended by someone pointing out the truth.
Gotta side with everybody else on this one. If asked what value your posts have added to this thread, with what would you respond?
 
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I'd say I stated the fact that if you have a penchant for abusing drugs then you don't need to be working in a situation with relatively easy access to them- it's like an alcoholic working as a bartender. The temptations are just to great for someone who already has a serious problem with impulse control. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm not trying to be insensitive, I'm not trying to be destructive, and I certainly don't have a stick up my ass out anything. I'm probably far more laid back than most people on the predent side. But someone needs to play devil's advocate here and argue the flip side of the coin you all seem to be looking at the optimistic side of.

I know there are DDS's and MD's who are alcoholics and drug addicts- it happens. But to tell someone who is already known to have that problem to pursue a career such as this is not something I am comfortable with. Like I said, that's like a person who is an alcoholic being told to continue to see work at a bar.

I don't mean to be rude but the OP doesn't really seem to have a leg to stand on from the standpoint of attempting to get readmitted and even rereading his post it comes across as though he seems to think the school hung him out to dry- "With a shrug he said to try calling the crisis hotline. This seemed impersonal so I did not"- sounds like he's passing the blame for his failure to someone else. They told him what to do and he ignored it- it's too impersonal- well so are a lot of things about assistance programs because of the sheer volume they deal with. It probably won't bode well with the admissions board that he blatantly and knowingly disregarded what he was recommended to do in order to correct his problem.

I wish the OP well in whatever he decides to do. Good luck with getting readmitted, good luck with managing your addictions. I honestly do wish you the best of luck. You've got a tough road ahead of you no matter what you choose to do.
 
ISU-

That type of honestly and truth should help build you an incredible dental practice-----most of the patients will enjoy your honesty as to why they have a bombed-out mouth. Please practice down the street from me. :D

I have trust that as you mature in life your degrading, class-less, and crass attitude/disposition will be set right.







________________________________________________________________
2 DAYS TILL I GRADUATE FROM DENTAL SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :love: :p
 
Crass? Classless? Degrading? Could you simply not say politically incorrect- since that is all this boils down to. I say what no one else dares, lest they offend one of our own. People are offended when someone provides criticism for their own benefit that wasn't exactly of the nature they were wanting. But in this case, there is no hate, no loathing, no disrespect, just simply he asked and I gave my opinion. Perhaps I went about it in the wrong manner, coming across a little too headstrong, but the gist of what I have said is exactly what I believe. Unlike most, when the situation calls for it I say what I believe, not what I think you all want to hear.

You have no idea how often I hold my tongue. I can be diplomatic when I choose to be, and I do choose to be so at work. What I say on here has no bearing or reflection on how I treat my patients- I treat all my patients in exactly the same manner, whether they are the mayor of my town or a homeless crack addict.

My comments here are not in anyway involving patients- they're involving a wouldbe colleague who I am sure before he developed the problems that he did would have made a fine dentist but it's just like one of my friends who was a medical student until he washed out because of his drinking. I told him (to his face during an intervention) the exact same things I have said here. He made his choices, he screwed up, and he's stopped drinking but he will never become an MD because of the drinking (unless he chooses to go to school in the Caribbean but that's not an option in the case of a dental student so it's a moot point) which is an unbelievable loss to the medical field- he is one hell of a paramedic and would have made one hell of a doctor. It's all a matter of bad timing and I feel for the OP because of the crappy timing in his case, just like I do for my friend. If it had happened a few years before this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion, but it did not and it is, so there is nothing we can do to change that fact. But I don't feel sorry for him because I wouldn't want someone to feel sorry for me or even to be empathetic if I were in his shoes. But I choose to be empathetic because that's the decent and human thing to do.

I'm just giving my honest and unbiased opinion, just like the rest of you all are. I respect all of your opinions and all I ask is that you do the same to mine, not accuse me of being crass or coldhearted simply because I might not have the same rose colored glasses outlook on everything as most of you do.

By the way, Dr.2B congratulations on your impending graduation. I'm sure you'll make a fine practitioner.
 
ISU_Steve said:
Crass? Classless? Degrading? Could you simply not say politically incorrect- since that is all this boils down to. I say what no one else dares, lest they offend one of our own. People are offended when someone points out their faults for their own benefit. Perhaps I went about it in the wrong manner, coming across a little too headstrong, but the gist of what I have said is exactly what I believe. Unlike most, when the situation calls for it I say what I believe, not what I think you all want to hear.

You have no idea how often I hold my tongue. I can be diplomatic when I choose to be, and I do choose to be so at work. What I say on here has no bearing or reflection on how I treat my patients- I treat all my patients in exactly the same manner, whether they are the mayor of my town or a homeless crack addict.

My comments here are not in anyway involving patients- they're involving a wouldbe colleague who I am sure before he developed the problems that he did would have made a fine dentist but it's just like one of my friends who was a medical student until he washed out because of his drinking. I told him (to his face during an intervention) the exact same things I have said here. He made his choices, he screwed up, and he's stopped drinking but he will never become an MD because of the drinking (unless he chooses to go to school in the Caribbean but that's not an option in the case of a dental student so it's a moot point) which is an unbelievable loss to the medical field- he is one hell of a paramedic and would have made one hell of a doctor. It's all a matter of bad timing and I feel for the OP because of the crappy timing in his case, just like I do for my friend. If it had happened a few years before this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion, but it did not and it is, so there is nothing we can do to change that fact. But I don't feel sorry for him because I wouldn't want someone to feel sorry for me or even to be empathetic if I were in his shoes. But I choose to be empathetic because that's the decent and human thing to do.

I'm just giving my honest and unbiased opinion, just like the rest of you all are. I respect all of your opinions and all I ask is that you do the same to mine, not accuse me of being crass or coldhearted simply because I might not have the same rose colored glasses outlook on everything as most of you do.

By the way, Dr.2B congratulations on your impending graduation. I'm sure you'll make a fine practitioner.
Dude, listen to me man. The OP came here to ask for ADVICE (i.e. what he can do to make his life better). I think everyone understands that he has made wrong decisions in the past. You keep throwing the flame at this guy as if he has never heard this lecture before :rolleyes:
 
ISU_Steve said:
I certainly don't have a stick up my ass, anymore... or anything for that matter.

:cool:
You seem like a pretty bright guy, and I like, no make that love, Mucomyst, so lets lay this to rest, heh? Anyone have any real advice for the OP?

I “know” of a few doctors at my school who like to drink a little, not saying that they’re alcoholics (wink), but like to “have a good time.” IMHO talking with a recovering alcoholic at the school would be beneficial. Not sure if this is a ludicrous idea, but if you went through the right mediums (maybe the counseling center) to set this up… it couldn’t hurt..
 
OK. I'll drop it. Good luck to the OP. I honestly mean that. I hope you succeed in achieving your goal. You've already beaten a drug addiction which is something I can't imagine doing. When you make it through dental school, please let me know: I'll be the first one lined up to have my teeth worked on by you. Chances are I'll need it after eating crow. ;) Honestly good luck. I wish you only the best.
 
This all comes down to whether you believe addiction is a moral fault or physiologic pathology.
 
ISU_Steve said:
I think you're screwed because you didn't follow the advice of the school. You made your bed, now lay in it and don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you becoming a drug addict and ruining your opportunity to do something most of us on this forum would figuratively (or literally for some of us :laugh: ) kill to do. Good luck in whatever you decide to do, but I do believe you're screwed.
That is outrageously insensitive, and for one, you yourself would make a horrible DOCTOR or DENTIST!!!!! An addiction is something that really requires help and mediating, it's something biological and psychological. Many people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol or whatever know they are and want to quit. But can't. That's the sadness of it all. I for one was addicted to ciggs, and let me tell you an addiction sucks but what sucks more are people who are ignorant enough like you. This guy is obviously intelligent enough to get into dental school (By the way, PM me if you would like to talk) and I highly doubt he wanted to throw away his first years tuition. My advice: Go seek some help with a counselor, get clean, and if you feel it worthy, apply again and prove yourself to yourself first. Hang in there, you'll make it through.
 
aphistis said:
Gotta side with everybody else on this one. If asked what value your posts have added to this thread, with what would you respond?



...We could ask the same the same about 98% of your posts as well....

ISU Steve: Pipe down, Chachie...have a drink or something....I am!
 
Yes, it's a psychological issue and physiologic syndrome as well, not a moral fault, but at the same time you still have to start using something to become addicted to it. That was one of my initial point. Just because you have an addictive personality doesn't mean that you will become an addict...just that you have a higher likelihood of it. So the argument that it's a psychological condition or medical condition to start with over which the patient has no control (like depression or schizophrenia) is not valid. Addiction is not just something that happens, it doesn't just occur, its stems from something that is done voluntarily. Does no one else see that? :confused: I'm not any brighter than anyone here, but I do think that perhaps some of you lack a degree of clinical detachment which might cloud your ability to see the big picture.

Yeah, addiction's a hard thing to beat. I've not argued that point- I've been discussing not the treatment of the habit, but the development of the habit. Yes, once an addiction is established it's just like a cancer- it never really goes away, it's always there, you can just put it into remission. You're not going to find me arguing that people should just quit smoking, shooting up, or snorting. Why do you think I carry around business cards to the local addiction treatment center when I am at work? Because I know most people need help and I will do everything in my power to help them.

Why does the fact that I believe people should be held accountable for their actions and the outcome of those actions imply that I will be a horrible DDS or MD? Am I supposed to turn a blind eye and just smile, nod politely and pat them on the back with a loving "It's all gonna be OK." No, because that is not the responsibility of a doctor. It sometimes means saying things that are unpleasant, in order to protect the health of a patient.

Just as I believe that a lung cancer patient who smoked three packs a day for thirty years has no one to blame but themselves- despite nicotine being one of the most highly addictive substances known to man- and people need to be held accountable for what they do. But trust me, they try to blame everyone but themselves- their doctors for not catching the diagnosis, the tobacco companies for providing a dangerous product, the RT's for not being able to alleviate their shortness of breath (this is one of the things that keeps me up at night and makes me want to do something other than RT- it bothers me that I can't help these people; I sure sound like a heartless SOB don't I?), their families, the government, etc....the list goes on and on. The only person who doesn't appear on that list for 99.9% of people is the one person responsible- themselves. I've been an RT for 4 years, probably treated a couple hundred lung CA patients and I've only had two admit that they were to blame for their problems. :(

This is the same basic idea than a criminal pleading not guilty because of mental illness- I'm not responsible because of my schizophrenia, Twinkie addiction, because my parents beat me, or whatever the flavor of the day defense is. There is no mea culpa because there is always some mental defect, chemical imbalance, childhood trauma, racial injustice, or other bull**** excuse as to why someone did something. Whatever happened to "I screwed up. Now I'm going to do my best to make up for it"? My GPA isn't a 4.0 because I didn't try as hard as I can, not because I have ADHD (which I do), because I drink too much (which I don't), or because the classes are just too tough (nothing in educational is unlearnable if you want to put enough effort into it).

I sincerely hope the OP is making the amends for his actions and does his best from here on out. As I said before, when he graduates if he gets back into dental school, I'll be the first person lined up to let him treat me. If he can beat a drug addiction, then I don't think I can question his dedication to anything. I was just saying he's going to have a very hard time of obtaining his goal. I've made my apologies publicly and privately already so I don't field the need to

By the way I am perfectly calm (if what I said said come across as angry, then I guess that's just because you can't see my face as I say these things), ZDaddy, and as a point of fact I don't drink anymore outside of an occasional beer with dinner every now and then.
 
ISU, please get a hobby. How do you have the time to write these novels?
 
Today's my day off that's how I have time. Besides it only took maybe 5 minutes to write that. But we're going to go fishing...I'm just waiting for Cledus to get back with the blasting cap...uh, I mean the worms, yeah, that's it- worms..... ;) :laugh: But seriously we are going fishing. :thumbup: Have a nice day Ruprick.
 
Today is my day off as well, however in the next two weeks I am scheduled 144 hours and probably about 50 percent of that will be dealing with packing wounds from drug abcesses and gun shot wounds. While I feel for the OP and his dilema I can't help but to side with ISU on this one. He made his bed and now he has to lay in it. I don't know if it is my 10 years in healthcare or just who I am but people do need to take responsibility for their actions and the outcomes of those actions. I think that when you are all professionals in the healthcare industry you will begin to accept the same attitudes that ISU and myself have. Lets see how sympathetic you will all be when some crack ***** wants you to save her last tooth but doesn't want to pay for it. People everyday are getting screwed by their actions and unfortunately I try to save my empathy for the 6 year olds with cancer that I take care of the other 50% of the time.

To the OP,

Good luck in whatever decisions you are able to make. I hope that truely did kick your addictions and I hope that you are able to show that to your school. Maybe with a lot of hard work and some well placed "thank you's" "sorries" and "pleases" you will be back in dentistry next year.
 
Just wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I have been in contact with two gentlemen in recovery who are besides being dentists, former ADA trustees with some resources at their disposal. I shared at a 12 step meeting and they aproached me and offered their help and assurances. Anyone ever see the movie "Bringing out the dead"? Remember the crazy ass EMT who tried to kill the drunk? PSYCHO! :luck: But any how, I appreciate everything said here and I will be in touch with some of you.

Much love
 
zdaddy08 said:
...We could ask the same the same about 98% of your posts as well....

ISU Steve: Pipe down, Chachie...have a drink or something....I am!
I'm game if you are.

Also, I just want to let you know how flattered I am to be getting so much of your attention. I'd never had a pet nag until you came around. :thumbup:
 
Let's just hope the OP doesn't go to DentalTown....doesn't seem like he would get near the level of support he would here:
http://www.dentaltown.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=50854&sessionID={ACC4EE60-8EAA-4141-BE29-FE5049B7B72D}
 
Whatever, dental school is a bunch of **it. When you get there, you'll understand. No need to rub it in his face....still **ity in my book....justify it to yourself however you need to....don't be a prick. I don't think a dental-town backing is going to change the fack that you're a dick to the OP.....
 
Some of you clearly missing the point... OP is not in the need to be criticized with his post. Remember your critiques won't benefit anyone reading this post including the OP. If you don't have any valuable suggestions, then don't post... this guy has already gotten his a$$ in the ringer.
 
And you all shouldn't be supporting him. He screwed up. He already knows it. He already knows that his chances are piss poor. Why encourage him to do something he is going to fail at? That's like my telling one of you who is a couch potato to just go run the Boston Marathon. I know and you know you won't succeed and me telling you "Go for it! You can do it!" is uncalled for. Be realistic. He screwed up and there's nothing he can do to remedy it unless he stumbles across the most sympathetic admissions officer you'll ever find. Being realistic and honest doesn't make me a prick. It means that I've been around the block a few more times than most of you and know what a bitch life can be. Someone needs to be the voice of reason, and other than TucsonDDS, I don't see anyone else filling that role.
 
Steve, I'm glad you're not applying to UNLV. You one obnoxious person that I would have to run into occasionally. Stop posting on this thread. Nobody cares about your rambles on this subject any longer....
 
I don't think any less of you because we don't agree, just as I don't think any less of DPG for his problems, and I only ask that you do the same Predentchick. You apparently don't like me because I'm outspoken, opinionated, and don't think exactly like you do. You don't know me, you've never spoken with me, you never seen how I am in person, so please don't judge me. I'm actually a pretty nice guy once you get to know me. Fair enough?

I've spoken my peace on this subject- made it very clear where I stand- and, just as I had planned before you responded, I will say nothing further about the topic of DPG and his problem.
 
So I have this gambling addiction (yes it is an addiction) and I unfortunately gambled away my house, my car and my mothers house who I was the power of attorney for. At the casino they had a phone number posted for gambler's annonymous but I thought it was too impersonal to call so I didn't do it and I just kept on gambling. Now I am 400K in debt and the bank won't give me back my house and my mom is on the street. It is a terible thing that they won't give it back and the casino refused to help me at all except giving me the number of a support group that may have been able to help me. I think that it is unfare that they allowed me to continue to gamble and didn't infringe on my god given rights to continue in an activity that I knew was destroying my life, but I enjoyed gambling so much, that high was just the best. I think that it is totally unfare that they won't give me back my house.


Or how about this one


I have been such a goal oriented person my entire life but unfortunately I cheated my way into med school. I knew it was wrong but I couldn't help cheating, after all the school didn't do anything but give me the names and numbers of some tutors. Now I got kicked out of school and they won't let me back in because I got cought cheating once and they gave me the tutors names and I refused to call. Then I got cought cheating again and they kicked me out, what a bunch of A-Holes. Why won't they let me back in, I probably won't cheat again.


You guys need to realize that this situation is entirely of the OP's making. Sure it sucks. Sure it is going to be a huge debt that he probably won't be able to repay in the near future. But it is his own damn fault. Do you all feel sorry for the alcoholic that is spending the next 20 years in jail because he just killed a family of four driving? Maybe it is societies fault that he is in jail. Do you feel sorry for the poor dad who just beat his kid to death because he didn't have the "resources" to put his crying kid back in the crib and shut the door? Perhaps this OP is lucky that all he did was get kicked out of Dental School with the debt that he has. Maybe it openned his eyes enough that he won't OD or shoot someone for that next high or worse yet, he won't kill that patient sitting in his chair while he was trying to do a consious sedation while he was higher than the patient.
 
Correct my understanding of the chain of events if my understanding is wrong. The OP has an addiction. Because of it he fails 3 classes as do many other students in his class yet b/c they were lazy and didnt study. The OP recognizes his addiction and asks for help. He is told to contact the crisis center. Rather than do that he receives a medical leave of absence so he can deal with his problem. while in therapy he receives a letter booting him from school because of his academic record (three failed classes). Meanwhile, the other student who also failed 3 classes are still in dental school and will soon graduate and be able to pay off their loans.

The heart of this problem is not his addicition but the fact the school had a double standard. If they want to kick him out for his addicition they need to state that in the letter of expulsion. Because they stated it was due to his academic record yet others with the same record were allowed to continue studying, the OP has a legal case against the school.

Contact the school, try to use the influence of your new dentist friends and if that does not work contact a lawyer ASAP. It also would not hurt to gather the names and copies of the transcripts of those friends who also failed 3 classes.

ISU Steve you are a troll
 
ISU_Steve said:
Yes, it's a psychological issue and physiologic syndrome as well, not a moral fault, but at the same time you still have to start using something to become addicted to it. That was one of my initial point. Just because you have an addictive personality doesn't mean that you will become an addict...just that you have a higher likelihood of it. So the argument that it's a psychological condition or medical condition to start with over which the patient has no control (like depression or schizophrenia) is not valid. Addiction is not just something that happens, it doesn't just occur, its stems from something that is done voluntarily.

Greetings!

My name is Alan Mead and I'm a dentist in Saginaw, MI. I hope no one minds that I jumped in here. ISU Steve brought this thread up on DentalTown, where I participate often, and I thought that I might be able to help out a little here...I hope that you guys don't mind my intrusion as I know this is a site for students.

I'm a recovering addict. I've spoken on many occasions to different groups on the topic of addiction...almost always regarding how it affects dentists. The existing science on addiction medicine lays it out pretty clearly. In order for addiction to exist you must have three things:

1) genetic predisposition
2) exposure to the substance (alcohol or drugs...it doesn't matter)
3) time (this varies from individual to individual)

In other words, if you don't have one of these three things, you cannot have the DISEASE of addiction. Since we don't have genetic tests to tell a person if they are genetically predisposed (yet) and many families don't talk about this stuff, you can't be sure about #1. #3 is different in each case, so a person can't know if they've been using "long enough." The only factor under anyone's control is #2, exposure. Since no one ever takes their first drink, pill, puff, shot, etc. thinking that they'll become an addict, this is also a blameless process.

The bottom line is that addiction is a blameless disease. Tough to swallow, but true.

Only after the disease has shown up and become active do the serious emotions seem to come into the picture.

All kinds of research has shown that addiction is a disease affecting the brain. And just how diabetes (a disease with genetic predisposition) affects the output of the pancreas through insulin, so addiciton affects the output of the brain...through behavior!

The bizarre behavior shown by addicts is simply a symptom of the underlying disease.

Prevention is a worthy cause when it comes to addiction, but as I mentioned before it's a pretty hard sell. However, addicts who are totally out of control can be treated and can be brought back into mainstream society. I'm one of them!

I won't take up any more of this thread. Suffice it to say that I believe that there's more to this student's story than was shared. If I can be of any help to you guys regarding this topic feel free to email me at [email protected].

Great topic!

Respectfully,

Alan Mead DDS
 
ItsGavinC said:
All, keep it clean or I'll close the thread.

Interestingly, practicing dentists who care to voice their opinions are in 100% agreeance with ISU Steve.

How wrong you are Gavin! I saw his posts on DentalTown. It is interesting how calm he is like a puppy with his tail between his legs, not wanting to step on anyones toes over there in dental town. Did you notice how he didnt provide a link to this thread. He only cut and pasted what he wanted them to read and then very nicely stated his opinion. Here ISU Steve is like a Bull in a China Shop. He has attitude and doesnt care who he offends. Often it is not what you say but how you say it. Little does ISU Steve know but his militant attitude and superiority complex here on SDN turn many users off. I ask why he didnt have this same attitude over on DentalTown? Because he respects the users over there. He has no respect for users on SDN. Because of his lack of respect and the fact he has stated and restated his opinion using such strong text, ISU Steve is a troll. Shutting down this thread because I stated so doesn not change that fact.
 
The link is in the second line- it didn't come up as a link, but I provided the address:
"Everyone, this has been a very heated debate on SDN for a couple of days now (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=202471) and I would like to know what everyone thinks: "

If you want to call me on something, make sure you're right about it before doing so. I'm not being rude, I'd just like to keep this as civil as possible. :thumbup:

Tail between my legs? Excuse me :laugh: ....I just asked for their opinion. I don't have to defend my stance when I ask for their opinion, hence why I did not get militant (as you call it there). If I were called upon to defend why I believe the things I do, then I would do so with all the vigor that I have here. I'm perfectly calm by the way, if I was pissed or even upset about this, then I would need to have my meds upped. ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You're entitled to your opinion of me, but the fact that I wrote a long and thought out series of posts in regards to this subject doesn't make me a troll, it doesn't make me militant, and I never used "strong" language. I guess you're reading attitude into that simply isn't there.

As for respect, most of your posts are decent and therefore I have respect for you- there are few people here (I can count them on one hand) for whom I don't care what they have to say. Simply because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I don't respect them- it means that I do not agree with them. There are lots of people whom I respect but don't always agree with, and the reverse is also true- I agree with some statements made by persons for whom I don't have much respect. Please, before assuming that my "attitude" on here as opposed to the approach I take on DentalTown has anything to do with the level of respect that I hold for the respective members of each board- remember that there was no juvenile attacks upon me for what I said there like there was here- two seperate boards, two seperate groups of people, two diverse approaches to things, and therefore that mandates two seperate levels of response to the discussion.
 
Thanks for sharing your story, Hudley. It's always encouraging to hear about people who change their lives around. Good for you! :clap:
 
hudley said:
In order for addiction to exist you must have three things:

1) genetic predisposition
2) exposure to the substance (alcohol or drugs...it doesn't matter)
3) time (this varies from individual to individual)
...
Since no one ever takes their first drink, pill, puff, shot, etc. thinking that they'll become an addict, this is also a blameless process.
...
The bottom line is that addiction is a blameless disease...

Calling it "blameless" is a rationalization. There is a conscious choice involved to expose one's self to the substance. It is a physiologic disease, like lung cancer, but nevertheless an underlying causation between the choice and the disease exists. Certainly in modern society the risks of drug addiction (even from first exposure) are known whether or not one chooses to ignore them.
 
To the OP:

First, I wish you luck in your struggle to kick the addiction. I truly admire such people.

As for dental school, I have to admit without hearing more of the story I would be tempted to side with the school. Now having said that, I know you're looking for ideas or opinions of what to do next. Well, certainly talk with the school with what you feel are injustices. Discuss them with the dean. Certainly you should ask for the dentists you met to speak on your behalf. If the school's decision is still final, your only recourse of action would be legal. (You probably already know that every professional school asks if you have been dismissed from any other school pretty much closing all further doors). The problem with going the legal route is finding a willing lawyer. I doubt any will work on contingency as this is far from simple tort law. The notion that it just isn't fair that other students having failed 3 classes like you are still in school isn't a strong legal argument. The school has quite a bit of authority to decide who is or is not academically qualified to continue. This isn't like discriminating based on race. Schools (particularly health profession schools) have it in their power to discriminate or dismiss based on drug addiction. There is nothing illegal about that.

gl
 
DDSSlave said:
Calling it "blameless" is a rationalization. There is a conscious choice involved to expose one's self to the substance. It is a physiologic disease, like lung cancer, but nevertheless an underlying causation between the choice and the disease exists. Certainly in modern society the risks of drug addiction (even from first exposure) are known whether or not one chooses to ignore them.
There is no way to know your genetic disposition. This has nothing to do with family history (that's hereditary, not genetics...there's a difference). Anyone who takes a drink is taking the risk because you may not know you will exhibit addictive behavior.
 
toofache32 said:
...Anyone who takes a drink is taking the risk because you may not know you will exhibit addictive behavior.

I completely agree.
 
Well, they might be exhibiting signs of an addictive personality in other aspects of their life, not just those pertaining to drug or alcohol abuse. There are established links between compulsive behaviors- obsessive compulsive disorder, the compulsive eating disorders, etc- and substance addiction. Yes, you're correct that they may not be aware of their compulsive behavior but this can be attributed to another aspect of the human animal- especially the male of our specie: the hard time a lot of us have looking at ourselves critically. Most of us can easily find fault in others, but at the same time will often make glaring mistakes when it comes to their own behavior or physical well-being (and just from my own experience, it seems to be most pronounced at the opposite ends of the spectrum- the exceedingly dimwitted and the extremely intelligent seem to have more problem with this than people of average intelligence). As one of our ER doctors is fond of saying that "9 times out of 10 sudden onset of symptoms means you weren't paying close enough attention." Yes, a fair number of people exhibit no symptoms of compulsive, impulsive or addictive behavior prior to developing a substance abuse problem, but a fair number do and do not realize it.
 
DDSSlave said:
Calling it "blameless" is a rationalization. There is a conscious choice involved to expose one's self to the substance. It is a physiologic disease, like lung cancer, but nevertheless an underlying causation between the choice and the disease exists. Certainly in modern society the risks of drug addiction (even from first exposure) are known whether or not one chooses to ignore them.

I disagree. The only part that I consider "blameless" is whether or not you have the disease. If you believe that anyone who chooses to imbibe alcohol is to blame for their potential eventual alcoholism, then I have no argument.

An addict is responsible for their behavior during active addiction and the consequences of those behaviors. They aren't responsible for actually having the disease. No more so than the diabetic having diabetes. They are responsible for the treatment of their disease.

It's semantics, really.

Alan
 
hudley said:
I disagree. The only part that I consider "blameless" is whether or not you have the disease. If you believe that anyone who chooses to imbibe alcohol is to blame for their potential eventual alcoholism, then I have no argument.

An addict is responsible for their behavior during active addiction and the consequences of those behaviors. They aren't responsible for actually having the disease. No more so than the diabetic having diabetes. They are responsible for the treatment of their disease.

It's semantics, really.

Alan

As a concrete example of what you're describing, a diabetic fails to monitor her glucose and then, hypothetically, goes into a seizure while driving which leads to a fatal traffic accident. If you'd agree with me (and it sounds like you would) that she's responsible for the crash, then we're on the same page. If you'd let her off the hook as a helpless victim of circumstance, then I doubt we'd find much common ground. Best of luck with your ongoing recovery. :thumbup:
 
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