Substancial Undergrad + MS debt

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cwrig14

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What is the largest amount of debt you know of someone accumulating between MS and undergrad?
I have about 80k in undergrad loans that, with compounding interest, I expect to top 100k by the time I graduate MS.
I was just accepted into my first medical school (which I'm incredibly thrilled about!), but it is a state school for which I am OOS. The total cost of the school, assuming no scholarships/ fin aid/ change of state residency (which I expect is a valid assumption), is over 320k. I understand that grad loans are unsubsidized and that these loans will accumulate interest during my time in school.
I expect that I am looking at 350k (from MS) and 100k (from undergrad) in loans at the time of graduation.
😱 Sincerely petrified 😱
Edit: Apologies if I posted this in the wrong forum
 
What is the largest amount of debt you know of someone accumulating between MS and undergrad?
I have about 80k in undergrad loans that, with compounding interest, I expect to top 100k by the time I graduate MS.
I was just accepted into my first medical school (which I'm incredibly thrilled about!), but it is a state school for which I am OOS. The total cost of the school, assuming no scholarships/ fin aid/ change of state residency (which I expect is a valid assumption), is over 320k. I understand that grad loans are unsubsidized and that these loans will accumulate interest during my time in school.
I expect that I am looking at 350k (from MS) and 100k (from undergrad) in loans at the time of graduation.
😱 Sincerely petrified 😱
Edit: Apologies if I posted this in the wrong forum

Congratulations on your acceptance, but WHY would you continue to incur that much debt? Why not only apply to an IS medical school? It's not like you can even declare bankruptcy due to college/MS loans. I would seriously reconsider. With $450K to payback, you're cutting into any future earnings.

Example: Use this site for a quick look to see what you're facing: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
With a 30 year debt program, charging 6.8%, you're facing 361 monthly loans of $2,933.66

Cumulative Payments: $1,056,121.55
Total Interest Paid: $606,121.55
 
Hate to say it, but 'financial freedom' is a myth for most people in America.

The idea that you're going to be debt-free is fairly naive. You don't want to have debt? Don't get educated, married, have children, or buy a home. Maybe you can swing a car without debt, but probably not a new one.

OP, just chug on and face the fact that working to make ends meet is a reality for most people including doctors.
 
Congratulations on your acceptance, but WHY would you continue to incur that much debt? Why not only apply to an IS medical school? It's not like you can even declare bankruptcy due to college/MS loans. I would seriously reconsider. With $450K to payback, you're cutting into any future earnings.

Example: Use this site for a quick look to see what you're facing: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
With a 30 year debt program, charging 6.8%, you're facing 361 monthly loans of $2,933.66

Cumulative Payments: $1,056,121.55
Total Interest Paid: $606,121.55

Unfortunately, I only have 1 IS school and I haven't been invited to interview there. I would love to attend my IS school, but that isn't a guaranteed option.
It's still early in the cycle, and anything can happen, but you would advise me not to attend the school I've been accepted to because of the price tag?
I understand your logic, but with the application process being the crapshoot that it is, I disagree.
That is a scary large number :scared:
 
Hate to say it, but 'financial freedom' is a myth for most people in America.

The idea that you're going to be debt-free is fairly naive. You don't want to have debt? Don't get educated, married, have children, or buy a home. Maybe you can swing a car without debt, but probably not a new one.

OP, just chug on and face the fact that working to make ends meet is a reality for most people including doctors.

That's the mentality I've been trying to have, but it is a tough pill to swallow.
I'm a first generation college graduate (or at least soon to be) in my family and have watched my parents live paycheck to paycheck for years. Although that kind of lifestyle would be an enormous outlier for doctors, I do find myself worrying with my future debt burden and the uncertainties of future income.
 
Sometimes I am happy to be Canadian and pay less than 3k a year for med school.
 
Let me just say that unlike a lot of you guys in this pre-allo board, I've graduated college and worked a good number of years in the working world. I'm very familiar with the income-tax-debt-saving-spending dilemma you're all worrying about, except I've had to live it.

Will high debt crimp your lifestyle? Absolutely.
Is it more ideal to lower one's debt? Absolutely.

Money aside, you have to realize that few people have 'financial freedom.' I know very few people who do, but the tradeoffs they've made to get it involved what I was talking about in my previous post. Regardless of circumstance, the typical person finds a way to get into debt and has to service it. That debt may be productive (some types of education) or un-productive (credit card & consumption) or just fact-of-life (getting married & having kids).

But short of changing careers, what choice do you really have? At least you're entering a solid profession. There are people with $50K+ debt from the Cordon Bleu academy. How are they going to pay that off? For all you pre-allo folks obsessed with debt, you should consider going to nursing school or becoming a PA. It's a much better financial ROI.
 
Hate to say it, but 'financial freedom' is a myth for most people in America.

The idea that you're going to be debt-free is fairly naive. You don't want to have debt? Don't get educated, married, have children, or buy a home. Maybe you can swing a car without debt, but probably not a new one.

OP, just chug on and face the fact that working to make ends meet is a reality for most people including doctors.

I agree that "financial freedom" is a bit of a myth, but I also think it's really important OP to strive for ways to reduce your debt burden or at least not make it grow so incredibly high. Some people choose to go to a community college, then IS for college. Or military. I've also known friends who worked really hard in school for the sole purpose to get scholarships. Scholarships for medical school are also possible, but less likely if it's a public and you're OOS.

Yes, you should continue your education, but consider the costs. Lease a car or buy used. Delay children. And find cheaper places to live (w/ family?) before you buy a home, so you can save. Just be smart about how to spend and save, and it's possible.
 
What amazes me is how people, incuding myself till a couple years ago, just take the face value "price" of tuition as anywhere near its "cost". Be it private instiutions, for profit, or the misleading "nonprofit"

Per capita/per student cost has actually declined dramatically with addition of mbs students for basic science years. There is no net increased cost as its just some more bodies in already empty lecture halls because its 2012 and we have a thing called the internet. I say no increased cost because ancillary collected fees for things like parking, health insurance, using the cafeteria easily pays for nominal cost of printing an extra class handbook.

And classroom time has been cut which leaves the lecturer more time to generate own income from research/clinical activities.

For clinical years spots are crammed with carribean students who pay the school and/or hospital most of want they collect in 50k year tuition per student. And anyone whos rotated knows you often have a resident doing the majority of instruction or you are just put to work with patients making an assembly line back to the attending for his time per patient to be cut down

State budget cuts dont reflect schools explanation in dollar amounts though they like to match the "%" . And thats not its "cost".

From ancillary services, dorms, mbs students, carribean, resident instruction, and state subsidies (that besides on the accounting books really never touches us) not one cent of your tuition is used to educate you.

Maybe an actual cost, or expenditure to educate us, is 3k basic science years like any college and 10kish clinical years. But with the above income streams and hundreds of millions at even the smallest schools of debt bonds zero of tuition/fees is needed and its a 100% markup. Just being a med school gets researchers hospitals nih grants and residency funding which is paid from medicare. We would still pay our way by existing at an instituition.

State money is just a revenue stream from our own pockets that goes to a a general income stream and a portion maybe earmarked for "education" but it does not matter because tuition from students is unrestricted income for any use. Like to subsidize healthcare workers salary, benefits, retirement and other admin/political a holes collect from.

as well as paying for research which often has a private corp interest or is sold off to one later on from which students and tax payers see zero return for their unknowing investment.

You then have trillions (really) of debt bonds (that are sold to wall street which our tuition pays their interest gains. When a town/school/fed sells bonds they are just taking a loan which funds so called necessary capital investments which get skimmed in the contracting out to builders/developers. They usually build ornate and unnecessary research and admin buildings that students never step in though they are sold under the guise of educational facilities (each state has a "nonprofit" that facilitates the transaction/terms between school and corp)

And the great thing is since its clear students are being price gauged they will separare finances and even the structure like rutgers/umdnj but leave the education instiution with the debt and the hospital scott free, with facilities in hand and years of student/state subsidized financing, and no debt to partner with for profit hospital corp. Where revenue is passed off quarterly in stock gains to people who dont contribute to healthcare whatsoever.



And for all those who say "its a free world", "your choice". Its really not because its the legal definition of fraud. Its not students responisbilities to subsidize the healthcare or state budgets its the taxpayer base as a whole. Its actually illegal to tax people on income they have not yet earned which is what is basically is being done to us and all students. Thats how the entireeee structure and purpose of government works though, its a ponzi scheme start to finish and we are the pigeons getting scammed. You skim peoples income who work, skim their supposed retirement plan aka social security (the worst retirement vehicle return wise EVER), then you run up their credit line by selling bonds to other countries cause u can just tax these *******s more and theyll pay or we put them in jail/garnish wages.

When thats been done to death you got to find a way to tax their dumb kids who are too young to work so you set up fed loans and use tuition to finance all the above nonedication activities.

When its clearly impractical to pay this debt when you are the most formally educated worker in the workforce timewise, you say "hey forget that ugly debt, just work at my state hospital/va/military/nonprofit for 10 years and pay 125k p/i instead of 650k for 25 years of payments"

You then can pay them the dirt wages u want and control the people that move healthcare along every step of the way.

And better yet they say "hey, i cant have these people make logical financial decision and ever have this debt discharged in bankruptcy. I'll just make it nondischargeable like only one other debt that is-taxes". So our dumb parents got taxed in the ass through their working years but we get it from both ends. Before we work in loans then when we do with customary income taxes/social security"

And im just some rambling ass who can point out the problem but has no solution. Yea i dont for everbody, but for me its FU im not paying it more then say 50k of reasonable markup. Australias paying docs twice as much and residents/fellows 100k. Ill work 10 hrs a week on the books, not work and collect unemployment and collect nominal living expenses through bartering. Because as long as im not some rich pig with millions in the bank they wont do jack ****. Live liquid, daily almost like each day is promised. They post their 85% conviction rate of evasion but if you arent some headline reading rube youll see on their site its a whole like 75 cases of a millions who practice tax evasion flaggerantly. They go for big dollars and big headlines that make them look good, a healthcare worker with nominal reserves and passes savings down to patients is bad press for them. They only go after clearly greedy people who also cause others harm by their tax evasion like stock schemes, drug dealers, corrupt politicians so they look unbiased.

My parents are bankrupt and underwater on their mortgage with zero money to their name close to retirement. theyve paid more in taxes over their life then people who earn millions a year, employed people and familys in a small business for 30 years, shelled out 1.4 million over 35 years to social security payroll and might see 650k if they live long enough. Which is like comparing 3 million with inflation to 300k in the future as the dollar rightfully turns to toilet paper.

Why the F would i or anyone else sign up for a lifetime of being defrauded and robbed when the jig is up? Paying into something that gives zero return and does not even protect your home from the fraud of mkrtgage securities. 426 billion in colombian drug money laundered through wachovias, thats convicted in 2011, not some conspiracy theory. Now these old sick people who are more skilled and valuable to the society then every banker and federal worker combined get to live like aholes renting after beig homeowners for 30 years and raising 5 kids who each have/will have an average 250k in student loan debt.

And everything gets better when gov default if people learn they were having years of their life skimmed for nothing. Who loses? People with millions-billions of money sitting in their stocks, etc. they have **** then. People who legit saved for retirement and avoided perils of esrning a wage dont lose either because the cost of living is inflated by these things. Every thing u see or do today will have the cost of these taxes and scams built into them so the girl who cuts your hair will have to cut 14 instead of 7 to earn her living wage while she could have spent what adds up to years of her life maybe doing other things she would prefer but couldnt because her kids wouldnt eat and she would be homeless. Working for someone elses profit when u dont want to is "slavery" just because you are not in physical chains but instead chained because of your need to buy food, have shelter does not make it somehow better. They both are crimes against humanity and an infringement to your first amendment rights. and we shouldnt really need a bunch of slave owners to put a name to it or entitle it to us. Its stuff u should recognize as a normal human, people have a right to their own lives, freedom, and pursuit of happiness. As long as it doesnt infringe on anothers right.

2.8 trillion annual healthcare gdp. 6% docs pretax maybe and dropping. Theyll squeeze it further and causes infighting between nurse practioners, PAs, on and on for practice rights like that is whats effecting your income.

Chinas not gonna sit on our face, no other country is interested in taking us over. Drop the defense tomorrow and we are still the last country supposed threats like dictator maniacs would take over. Natural resources drained, 3rd largest population and not centrally located, demographically/culturally/religiously diverse as possible which makes control difficult, most violent and with most guns per capita then most armies/police forces elsewhere per capita. Population used to higher standard of living so high expectations post-ridiculous situation should our fed not exist and we were somehow perceived as vulnerable prey to others. Condolezza rice even recently said it basically.

The us defense budget is offense in actuality. though they abused our soldiers so much they dont even have a stronghold to enforce these taxes, laws. More money spent then next 27 "developed" countries combined for something we are the last of every nation to need.

Social services, welfare and those things are such a tiny fraction of taxes and yes necessary unless you want to live in an animal society where disbaled/old/kids get left for dead cause they dont earn their keep. Any other non legit use is just a practical economic decision by people st poverty line and encouraged by fed with their income exclusions like tax return income.

Why do they tax people on income earned below the poverty line.
 
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Hate to say it, but 'financial freedom' is a myth for most people in America.

The idea that you're going to be debt-free is fairly naive. You don't want to have debt? Don't get educated, married, have children, or buy a home. Maybe you can swing a car without debt, but probably not a new one.

OP, just chug on and face the fact that working to make ends meet is a reality for most people including doctors.
this.. and don't forget the fact that only ~3% of americans have any savings
 
I know someone who has almost 80k in debt from art school...
 
this.. and don't forget the fact that only ~3% of americans have any savings

Really brilliant, its a fact things have to be that way because they are and anything else is a myth. Like theres no reason behind things. why bother thinking beyond that when 50 cents out of every dollar or 25 of your 50 hour work week just goes up in smoke like a law of gravity.

Its not just money or chunks out of the few years we are alive, but it compromises peoples health at every level. But youre a doctor you practice medicine based on the fee schedules dictated by medicaid/medicare/insurance companies to large degree. Because if not your practice would go under or you wont get paid by your employer because of your fee schedule productivity. And these are set by by a mesh of self financial interests and not the economic feasability of carrying out care and often adverse care.

All the epidurals that get done because they get reimbursed well despite the fact they just provide crappy symptom management. you are introducing a needle into someones spinal protective layer with all the structural iatrogenic infection risks each time for 45 minutes of relief after an hour of worse pain post procedure. But if not you might not be able to stay open or take care of personal expenses. These things cause people to have their health conditions worsened when seeing a doctor. I dont care about isolated spore contamination as ****s gonna get contaminated no matter every now and again despite agressive prevention. Theres a risk to stepping out of bed every morning, thats life and an unavoidable fact.

But not practicing medicine which frequently exacerbates conditions because a bunch of thoughtless people with no medical background want to make a buck, please lobbyists, get reelected. Besides the fact that the patient and society goes broke for these things. poverty is a comorbid condition for any disease.

Besides that physicians lose trust with public because of financial based procedures and you lose out to an APN who graduated 5 years earlier with 50k debt, vs your 650k paid out over time, who can charge less and still make ends meet and/or without the same fiscal medicine you just lose patients because of over time.

And 95% of the time the reason people get these procedures done-epidural, arthocentesis-is because they want their opiate pain RX because its ****in opiates. everyone gets addicted/dependent given a long enough time course on them and have no basis for long term chronic pain control.

But if you are cool spending most of your waking life having an difficult, expensive, pointless occupation thats your own *****ic business
 
jmadden said:
Why do they tax people on income earned below the poverty line.
My brother is technically paid below poverty wages and yet, his income is taxed. At first I wondered if it's because he still has to use our roads and police and fire, schools, etc. so maybe that's why. I mentioned this disparity and it turns out my brother doesn't actually pay anything. He gets a refund. He is in that 47%.


Actually jmadden, it's "entitlements" like social security and medicaid that scrivel many pay checks, but those in the top brackets disporportionally pay something like 93% of all US taxes. It's just that these wealthy folks seem like they should pay more, but do we really want a system where we are all paid the same and make the same?
 
take a gap year and try and pay off as much of the debt as you can. (can still do volunteer work, clinical work, research, etc)
 
take a gap year and try and pay off as much of the debt as you can. (can still do volunteer work, clinical work, research, etc)

How much of my undergrad debt could I possibly pay off in a gap year? And even if I were able to pay it all off, that would only decrease my overall debt by a quarter. Also I don't think the school I've been accepted in to would be very accommodating to taking a year off to pay loans.
 
Hate to say it, but 'financial freedom' is a myth for most people in America.

The idea that you're going to be debt-free is fairly naive. You don't want to have debt? Don't get educated, married, have children, or buy a home. Maybe you can swing a car without debt, but probably not a new one.

OP, just chug on and face the fact that working to make ends meet is a reality for most people including doctors.

The problem is that people are financially illiterate. They would choose lower payments every time, even if that meant paying a ton more in compounded interest. If you can be comfortable with a frugal lifestyle by foregoing your consumerist addictions, saving money is pretty easy. Remember that the stuff that we own ends up owning us.
 
take a gap year and try and pay off as much of the debt as you can. (can still do volunteer work, clinical work, research, etc)

That's horrible advice. That lost year of physician earnings is far more substantial than anything you can pay down in that year you take off.
 
The problem is that people are financially illiterate. They would choose lower payments every time, even if that meant paying a ton more in compounded interest. If you can be comfortable with a frugal lifestyle by foregoing your consumerist addictions, saving money is pretty easy. Remember that the stuff that we own ends up owning us.

Well there is a reason personal finances aren't taught in school because you make a profit off someone who pays little interest and other finance charges. Though recently i have it seen offered in some high schools. But all this "financial literacy" is just understanding completely pointles and trivial ways that people try to screw you out of money. Amortization schedules, finance fees, and the purposely fine print in ever contract terms of agreement. Though too little too late it is put more plainly.

You think way too much of our public education system to expect this to be 97% of peoples fault who have no savings and the other 3% who do have savings in our country doing the norm.

It comes down to basics. In an economic transaction thats sustainable you have one party who sells a good/service with added value to it for a profit more then their original cost. Like the plumber who uses his learned skills and parts to fix your plumbing. You dont have a sink that leaks. And the person who sold the plumber his copper pipes bought copper and pressed it into its form in a machine. the valet who parks your car, you get that luxurious experience. Etc etc

But when the transaction has a margin of profit and no added value it becomes unsustainable when the margin is too much for the market of people at the receiving end, or if these no value transaction are pervasive in the economy of a society. Thats why inflation exists, its not some natural force of physics like how people just accept gravity. Its not something that exists for no reason or has to exist, its a marker for these no value economic transactions which include various government and financial sector "services" from tax dollars, "borrowing" from the american peoples social security retirement, selling treasury bonds to another country so they can pay what they took from social security or pay the interest on old t bills.



speculating in the bannana industry so everyone the next month pays 1 cent more for them because a floor trader has the power over volume to manipulate.

When money makes money there is often no value added to an economic transaction and thats the entire banking industry. They never had the "wealth" they recently obtained and its a frightening percentage I cant remember but like 65% maybe.

People who work for a living/earn their money through their own sweat, skill, learned service are not the issue. And there will always be a % of the population that needs to be supported by others because of disability, age, etc. and of course there will always be a small percent that takes advantage and feigns illness, its not worth the cost of investigating often and the social service costs are nominal despite what people think.

Poor people and those on ssi actually pay a higher tax burden then the extremely wealthy because of favorable dividend rates, offshore banks, etc. its not just income tax, though people on ssi and below the poverty level have these taxes witheld despite the fact the minimum wage is below the poverty level for anyone with a dependent.

Rent/mortgages pay property taxes that support local schools and police force. State sales and luxury taxes support their mostly unnecessary services besides income tax. Each level of government has their own version of "treasury bonds", general obligation and project/capital investment bonds. The gen obligation has the ability to tax to pay the interest on their bonds inbelieve and they are received state and federal income tax free i believe. And there are enough documented cases of how these funds are taken for personal gain at every financial level. A contractor receiving an overmarket price for their service so the elected official receives a kickback (fixed or % of payment). No show jobs, jobs for friends and families, a job for someone to do their elected job so they basically have a no show job besides get elected again.

And not everyone is physically capable of this financial literacy of trivial/manufactured mathematics. I have a friend from grammar school with fragile X. He has worked full time since 14 and graduated high school. He is only capable of certain jobs like stocking a grocery shelf for minimum wage. Yet every week all these taxes are taken and social security retirement for the age of 70 which he is unlikely to meet because of cardiac congenital malformations. He lives paycheck to paycheck in the rentd room of a crappy house with no car ever and is 29. It is mathematically impossible for him to save and meet his basic living needs.

So hes the ******* for not saving? Guy thats worked almost everday of his life for 15 years without the help of anyone. including the people who bitch about welfare in their tax gripe which could be eliminated and not change a whole percentage point of our tax burden. Those people who some have savings are financially illiterate despite their earned interest on savings because they dont know where half their paycheck goes each week and during each economic transaction of everyday in true subsidized lifestyles.

Its just statistics that some people will be *******s though and take advantage of the weaker party in an economic transaction to the point of jeopardizing their ability to provide basic needs. When we live in a society rather than hermits, it benefits society for protecting these people and preventing mistreatment by others.

We are individuals but unless u are on a desert island and interact with no one or family you are part of a society if only financially or geographically. And its a global society now which is beneficial and likely unavoidable/irreversible. America the country of immigrants has shown that progress comes from the ideas and mixing of cultures. The world being smaller because of the internet and technology is just another version.

We are societal by our nature and have been throughout evolution to homo sapiens. We would not exist if other members of a group of hunter/gathers just stole berries or dead wooly mammoths from each other in order to survive. Sure it happened, but if people only stole dead wooly mammoths then no one would eat because u still need the person who tracked, hunted, and killed it before you can steal it. Anthropology shows societal groups supporting each other as individuals which progressed them as a whole. Worrying or focusing on the small % of people who need support and who misuse u basic living support as cause for breakiing off from society or fragmenting/excluding is not beneficial to any individual nor practical.

$900 a month to one person is not the issue. Epidemiologically a certain % will need support for congential or acquired disabilities. Without the BS on the large scale its not a noticeable difference in the wealth of others.

And if for personal reasons because you think they deserve their misfortune or focus on the small % who misuse that all these people should be malnourished, homeless and exposed to elements, not receive treatment to prevent further disabling conditions then thats your own personal issue. Maybe theyll be an efficent way to screen people for lack of sympathy and the 1 cent of every 100 you earn you can go have fun with.

Its your own defense mechanism and resolution of the internal conflict that awful things happen to people to no fault of their own. "poor people are that way because they are lazy or want to" "all addicts can quit anytime they want, they lack normal willpower or integrity"
 
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