icymd

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i don't know about all the drama with turkish prisons the other person mentioned. not sure how much I trust what people post but here I am anyway. i'll tell you what I know which isn't much since I only rotated at summa and then I've got a question for anyone out there. as always you gotta trust your own observations first.

SUMMA

-nice people. a few attendings are clearly not interested in teaching but I'm sure you get that everywhere. some are great and incredibly smart. beeson is nice but hard to read sometimes. I think he does go far for residents. the associate director, well . . . let's leave it at I probably don't know him, maybe he's open and friendly once you get to know him. a lot of residents are taken from the affiliated med school and this might lend to some of the resident classes having a cliquey feel. for the most part they seem nice enough, some friendlier than others. PAs and nurses very nice.
-research is probably emphasized more here than at general. i think summa's pretty academic as beeson's involved in a lot of stuff.
-curriculum very very fine tuned, cut out a lot of the not so useful like floor months, i think they probably listen to residents pretty well. they seem very on top of things.
-better funded, brand new beautiful ed divided into zones, you cover your zone and aren't running all over.

GENERAL

liked the people better even just based on the interview (of course I met the residents more than the faculty). felt like I would fit in better with them, maybe they were more laid back. I'm just goin on gut since i didn't rotate here. residents I met were all friendly, joking, laughing. kyriakedes seemed nice and I think he's there for residents from what i've heard. don't know much about associate director except he's leaving, but not cuz it's a bad program.
-curriculum not as fine tuned, probably not as organized but then i haven't seen it firsthand. do a trauma month up in cleveland, which might be a pain to drive to.
-not as well funded as summa, but I don't think you'll be lacking in anything you need, and compared to some programs it's really good. facilities not as nice as summa's, but they might be constructing a new ed soon, which can be a good or bad thing in the middle of residency.

i don't know if this helps, but i tried. hopefully someone who rotated at both places will post.

now here's my question. from what i hear general phones their top 20 and sends out letters to either their top 20 or top 40. so is there no point in ranking them if you haven't heard either way? anyone know details about this. also, what if a program hasn't downloaded your step 2 score from ERAS, does that pretty much mean you're not even on their rank list? I can't imagine that a program would rank you without at least looking at the score, even if they're assuming you passed.
 

ROLconfusion

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Thanks for the replies. I am not too worried about the physicians committing suicide etc. Either way it all sounds a bit gossipy.
I don't mind Akron and need to be there for personal reasons so I am really just trying to see if there is any compelling reason to rank one ahead of another except for just who I liked more. I was not able to rotate at either one.
Summa seemed more together as far as curriculum but Dr.Beeson seemed kind of either tired and/or depressed when I was there. The residents were nice and the faciliites are really nice. General had a less formal interview day and I think they are hurt by not giving an actual presentation on the program. I walked away scratching my head a bit. However, I really did like the PD and chair and thought everyone seemed, like you said, very laid back and fun.
One more question: 3 or 4 people who, when I asked what the difference was, made the comment that Summa had more of 'gunner' feel about it and that the residents were more competitive with each other. These people had rotated through there. Icymed, would you say this is true?

About Generals top 20, I know the PD did say that he calls/writes his top 20. I would still rank them even if you haven't heard because who knows if his top 20 want to be there. I can't remember what he said about filling within his top 20. Also, not sure about the step 2 score not being downloaded. If it was available really late it might be the program stopped downloading. I have heard on these boards that after awhile some programs just stop updating their files. Maybe someone else can comment on that. Thanks!
 
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icymd

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beeson's a nice guy, i wouldn't be put off by the tired/depressed thing. i think the guy's involved in a lot of stuff, got things going on, plus he might just be one of those not outwardly exuberant people. the residents all seem to love him. as far as summa's "gunner feel" i'm gonna say that I would bet it's more so than general. like I said they take a lot of people from their affiliated med school, and while I think it's usually pretty cool people that go into EM, I'm not a big fan of the people from that med school. Generally, I think the maturity level is a bit lacking, mainly because there are a lot of 6 year combined degree people who graduate from there (this means only two years of undergrad and then 4 years of med school). This lack of maturity might contribute to some of the snarky/sneaky behavior that goes on. I'm not sure how much of it follows the grads who go into EM and specifically the program at SUMMA. but remember the whole grain of salt thing. EM people usually cool and so your intern class could be. if i hear/think of anything else I'll try and post before ROL Day.
 

Greenbbs

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when i was a med student, i rotated at both hospitals, but ended up in an osteopathic program.

Summa was nice. High acuity stuff, but like others have said, definately the gunner type feel. People didn't exactly care about patient care, but rather patient numbers and stuff. Some of the people there can be a bit standoffish, but you get that anywhere.

General was more my type of hospital, much more laid back. It is true that 2 attendings have committed suicide in the past 3 years or so, and one is in a turkish prison for killing his wife. They see a lot of high acuity stuff too, but you tend to not be as competitive as at summa. The attendings tend to be a bit more friendly as well.

You're not going to lose by going to one over the other. You do your same peds months at Childrens, and both go to Baltimore for Shock Trauma and Metro for LifeFlight/Trauma too.

I'm happy where I'm at, but wouldn't have complained with either if I didn't go osteopathic.
 
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I used past posts about people's thought on the programs on their rank order list to help formulate my own preferences in the programs I interviewed at so I thought I would pass my thoughts along about the programs on my ROL, now that all interviews are said and done. Be forewarned: I'm not very picky about where I do my training, so I ended up making a lot of decisions based on gut feeling and eccentric preferences.

1. JPS, Ft Worth: Really clicked with the faculty and residents. Hospital and program is very well funded and the EM program has a lot of pull and respect within the hospital. Really like the city for its size, low cost of living, and reasonable traffic volume. Almost all the training (except three months) is at their hospital.
2. Christiana, Delaware: Very well respected program that's been around a long time. I did a rotation there and its clear that many of their residents are very strong. Has many of the same qualities I liked about JPS (strong and respected program within the hospital), but I grew up in the area and am hesitant to move back. Has two training sites that are 20 minutes apart.
3. Ohio State, Columbus, OH: Really liked a lot of the residents I met. Had trouble clicking with some of the faculty, but did get to sit in on a small group session with one of their younger faculty members leading who was a phenomenal educator. Columbus seems like an awesome town. Just a little hesitant about the separate training sites.
4. Summa, Akron, OH: The nicest cafeteria I've ever been to. New YMCA connected to the hospital. Maybe that shouldn't have influenced me so much, but it did.
5. York, PA: I was really into the program director's pride in having a strong sense of community in the program. I also thought their simulation and other educational programs sounded really engaging.
6. Baylor, Houston, TX: Assistant residency director (Tyson Pillow) was the most personable, fun, and candid person I met the entire interview trail. Would love to work under him.
7. Jefferson, Philadelphia, PA: Three different training sites, some of which appeared to be long commutes. Really cool neighborhood for the university hospital, but pricey. Awesome airway course included with the education.
8. Little Rock, Arkansas
9. CHRISTUS Spohn, Corpus Christi, TX: Program director seemed a bit awkward and not very personable, but the assistant program director and a lot of the other faculty seemed cool. Didn't really click with any of the residents. Seemed like they have a cool simulation experience.
10. St. John's, Detroit, MI
11. UTSW: Very cool residents. Did get the impression that their training experience was a bit skewed to free labor taking priority over education side of things. Clerkship director was very arrogant. Very insistent on his excellent clinical and educational abilities.
12. Metro/Clevland Clinic: Great reputation, but many of their residents seemed burnt out and dissatisfied. They were also the only place where the residents didn't seem to hold their program director in especially high regard.
13. New York Hospital Queens: The fact that this is one of the most ethnically diverse areas in the US makes me think I'm going to have to use a translator way too much.
 
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Long time lurker, posting on alternate account in order to remain anonymous. These threads greatly helped me and as such I am paying it forward. Good luck for future medical students. I won't go into the curriculum details or specifics since those are mostly readily available on their websites, but rather I made a long pro/con detail list along my interview trail and I will highlight my thoughts from that list.

Pro: established program, great COL, family friendly, happy faculty and residents, chill interview day, good work/life balance, gorgeous facilities, good SIM experience, work directly w/ attendings so you sign out together, great food (5 star restaurant on site), good benefits like a gym membership, very academic feel despite not being an academic center

Con: Akron, I am from PA I felt like this was not a plus to the program, got the feeling that they love people that rotated there (they asked several times about who rotated here), not a big name in EM but certainly reputable in the midwest, lack of research, no ultrasound,

Overall impressions
Gut feeling:6/10
Facilities/resources: 7/10
Location: 5/10
Didactics: can't comment
Prestige: 6/10
Research: 5/10
Shift/hours/wellness: 10/10
 

res1cue

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I too want to hear about this. I interviewed there a couple years ago and overall left with a good impression, even though it was too far geographically.

Any residents from there able to comment?
 

The White Coat Investor

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Who would rank that program after this? Only the desperate, but they probably didn't interview a bunch of desperate people. I bet they don't match any and have to scramble the whole class.
 
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Dakota

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Who would rank that program after this? Only the desperate, but they probably didn't interview a bunch of desperate people. I bet they don't match any and have to scramble the whole class.
Will there even be a class?

It sounds like SEA is out and none of the current attendings have signed on with USACS. Will USACS just gin up a program director, assistant program director, and various other core faculty out of thin air?
 

CliveStaples

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Well I interviewed there earlier this year and just received an email update about the situation and was informed they will not be interciewing anybody else this year. They didn't outright say they're withdrawing from the match, though I can't imagine that the new regime will rank anybody - or that any of us will rank them (though I guess you could make an argument that it's better to offer them your very last spot than be put in a situation where they're a place you're SOAPing into?).

Now who should I talk to about getting my interview expenses associated with Summa comped :annoyed:
 

CliveStaples

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I doubt Summa gives up those residents without a fight. They're wonderfully inexpensive labor who are familiar with the ED and EMR. Without them, any staffing issues will be greatly exacerbated.

They need to lose accreditation ASAP. Is there any precedent for something like this?
 
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emergentmd

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What a CLUSTER Fck. All in the name of $$$. There had to be a smoother transition than this. 3 Days notice? That is alot of lives being screwed. But the good news for the ED docs is that the rate in the Ohio area has all gone up.
 

WilcoWorld

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There is a lot of animosity floating around the EM Academic community on this issue, but one thing is consistently being said by all sides - the residents will not be left out in the cold.

This whole fiasco certainly reflects poorly on the Summa hospital administration, based on available evidence it sure looks bad for USACS (the corporate management group), and it could conceivably reflect poorly on (the old democratic group) SEA. In fact, the new PD, and current ASACS employee, Scott Felten is busy painting just such a picture.

But no matter your allegiance it should NOT reflect poorly on the graduates and current residents of the program. I've met and worked with some of their graduates and I hold them in high esteem.
 

emergentmd

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When a CMG is involved in GME is crazy IMO. They are for profit, residencies are perceived to be a place of learning. Perception is just poor
 
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NYEMMED

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When a CMG is involved in GME is crazy IMO. They are for profit, residencies are perceived to be a place of learning. Perception is just poor
I can see your viewpoint but, having graduated from a program that was run by a CMG I can tell you it was good.

The CMG gave the program a large yearly budget on top of what the GME office gave, they usually paid for everything, including unique experiences other residencies could never afford. Remember this is a recruiting pipeline as well so CMGs usually treat residencies very well.
 

Makati2008

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I can see your viewpoint but, having graduated from a program that was run by a CMG I can tell you it was good.

The CMG gave the program a large yearly budget on top of what the GME office gave, they usually paid for everything, including unique experiences other residencies could never afford. Remember this is a recruiting pipeline as well so CMGs usually treat residencies very well.
I'm assuming it was not EMP/USACS.....they seem to be pretty known for pinching pennies.


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NYEMMED

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I'm assuming it was not EMP/USACS.....they seem to be pretty know for punching pennies.


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Correct. It was a different group.
I did have a friend that was in a residency run by USACS, he seemed to really like it, now he works for them.
 
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Aonyx

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So did the program get put on probation or have their accreditation yanked? The article wasn't clear. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought residents only had their positions terminated if they lost accreditation, not put on probation.
 
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So did the program get put on probation or have their accreditation yanked? The article wasn't clear. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought residents only had their positions terminated if they lost accreditation, not put on probation.
The program lost accreditation.
 

AlmostAnMD

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pending appeal, lost accreditation--more accurate.

Dunno what the success rate of appealing to ACGME is, though. We'll find out in 30 days.
 
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Daedalus

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From the article I read, sounds like they are being put on probation, pending loss of accreditation on July 1. My guess (hope?) is that they did this so the current PGY-3's can graduate from an accredited program. They can appeal, but this is not a standard "you're being put on probation so you can fix XYZ" - this is "you're technically on probation for the rest of the academic year, but after that your accreditation is gone". Someone correct me if I read that wrong.
 

alpinism

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Agree with the above.

It sounds like they are currently on probation and will be losing accreditation on July 1st, 2017.

They even specifically state that the current 1st and 2nd year residents will need to find new residency programs.
 

emergentmd

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All sides screwed the pooch. It appears all parties are at fault. SEA believed they had some mythical power over the Hospital. Once their bluff was called, they realized they have no influence in the process.
 
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GeneralVeers

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My condolences to these residents, but in the end it was the right decision given the loss of faculty, work environment and instability.

Having gone through this myself (my program got shut down midway through my 2nd year in 2007), I can empathize. By putting them on probation until July 1st, it is done so the graduating seniors can finish, and it gives the other residents time to try and find a new program to transfer to, while still continuing their training so they don't lose any time.

It is extremely difficult to find new homes for that many residents, and I sincerely wish them the best of luck.
 
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swamprat

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My condolences to these residents, but in the end it was the right decision given the loss of faculty, work environment and instability.

Having gone through this myself (my program got shut down midway through my 2nd year in 2007), I can empathize. By putting them on probation until July 1st, it is done so the graduating seniors can finish, and it gives the other residents time to try and find a new program to transfer to, while still continuing their training so they don't lose any time.

It is extremely difficult to find new homes for that many residents, and I sincerely wish them the best of luck.
but don't they get orphan status so their funding goes with them? Whats to stop lets say my program from taking on another resident. I think my program is actually approved for more residents than we have funding available for.
 

bravotwozero

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Yeah, if I was a PD, and I got additional residents with the finding/slots that came with it, and the resident was otherwise in good standing, I'd take them in a heartbeat - there is really no downside here..


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WilcoWorld

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The CORD list serve is currently a flurry of PDs offering to help the residents find new homes. It'll still be a hassle for them, and for that I am sorry. But I am pleased that here the right thing appears to have been done.
 

The White Coat Investor

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Not everyone can put on their resume:

"Nuked a residency program."

Way to go Bagnolis. Your greed screwed a lot of good docs over. Hope your corporate masters paid you well to sell your souls. Not sure I could wake up in the morning and look in the mirror after doing that. Hope you enjoy subsidizing those FSEDs as much as SEA did.

I can't believe anybody is blaming SEA even partially for this. The hospital admin wanted them to subsidize their money hemorrhaging FSEDs and didn't even meet with them face to face before bringing in USACS. This could have been worked out but the hospital clearly didn't want to. That's why the CEO was fired.
 

TimesNewRoman

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Not everyone can put on their resume:

"Nuked a residency program."

Way to go Bagnolis. Your greed screwed a lot of good docs over. Hope your corporate masters paid you well to sell your souls. Not sure I could wake up in the morning and look in the mirror after doing that. Hope you enjoy subsidizing those FSEDs as much as SEA did.

I can't believe anybody is blaming SEA even partially for this. The hospital admin wanted them to subsidize their money hemorrhaging FSEDs and didn't even meet with them face to face before bringing in USACS. This could have been worked out but the hospital clearly didn't want to. That's why the CEO was fired.
I'm sure people like this (read: the dirtbag suit) convince themselves they did everyone a favor.
 

GeneralVeers

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I'm sure people like this (read: the dirtbag suit) convince themselves they did everyone a favor.
These people don't even bother to employ cognitive dissonance. While they convince everyone else around them to "drink the altruistic Kool-aid", they are greedy and doing it for their own personal profit and megalomania. If you've ever been to a meeting with EMP/Dominic it's like a King holding court, and all of the lesser beings are simply sycophants.
 

sum dude

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Not everyone can put on their resume:

"Nuked a residency program."

Way to go Bagnolis. Your greed screwed a lot of good docs over. Hope your corporate masters paid you well to sell your souls. Not sure I could wake up in the morning and look in the mirror after doing that. Hope you enjoy subsidizing those FSEDs as much as SEA did.

I can't believe anybody is blaming SEA even partially for this. The hospital admin wanted them to subsidize their money hemorrhaging FSEDs and didn't even meet with them face to face before bringing in USACS. This could have been worked out but the hospital clearly didn't want to. That's why the CEO was fired.
http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/emergency-in-the-er-what-went-wrong-between-summa-and-its-longtime-physicians-1.738835

SEA countered a 3 year deal by hospital with a 15 year deal backed by a nuclear option...not exactly a JFKesque negotiation tactic (3yr renewal w/ 2 year option is as good as it gets.) Might not be a popular opinion, but SEA did not play their cards right and overestimated their hand, and Summa called their bluff.

Lesson for other groups here...don't go all in w/ pocket Jacks, b/c hospital will call your hand
 

Daiphon

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From the article I read, sounds like they are being put on probation, pending loss of accreditation on July 1. My guess (hope?) is that they did this so the current PGY-3's can graduate from an accredited program. They can appeal, but this is not a standard "you're being put on probation so you can fix XYZ" - this is "you're technically on probation for the rest of the academic year, but after that your accreditation is gone". Someone correct me if I read that wrong.
EM program lost accreditation (pending 30d appeal), entire hospital is on probation (jeopardizing other programs at Summa).

Semper Brunneis Pallium
 

The White Coat Investor

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http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/emergency-in-the-er-what-went-wrong-between-summa-and-its-longtime-physicians-1.738835

SEA countered a 3 year deal by hospital with a 15 year deal backed by a nuclear option...not exactly a JFKesque negotiation tactic (3yr renewal w/ 2 year option is as good as it gets.) Might not be a popular opinion, but SEA did not play their cards right and overestimated their hand, and Summa called their bluff.

Lesson for other groups here...don't go all in w/ pocket Jacks, b/c hospital will call your hand
Give me a break. They wanted another company to show them all their financials? Who's dumb enough to do that? It's a negotiation. You offer 3 years. They ask 15 and a subsidy. You offer 5 and a subsidy and you get to see the books for the money loser EDs and you all sign the papers. That's how it works when people are actually on the same team. It's a negotiation. Anyone who believes Bagnoli wasn't involved until mid to late December is an idiot.
 

WilcoWorld

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http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/emergency-in-the-er-what-went-wrong-between-summa-and-its-longtime-physicians-1.738835

SEA countered a 3 year deal by hospital with a 15 year deal backed by a nuclear option...not exactly a JFKesque negotiation tactic (3yr renewal w/ 2 year option is as good as it gets.) Might not be a popular opinion, but SEA did not play their cards right and overestimated their hand, and Summa called their bluff.

Lesson for other groups here...don't go all in w/ pocket Jacks, b/c hospital will call your hand
Seems to be the hospital's bluff that's getting called now.
 
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