Surgery Rotations : Is their goal to make sure that NO one goes into this field ?

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kornphan

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What's up with Surgery rotations ?.. everyone I have talked to here, at my school, and other recent graduates all had nothing good to say about this rotation. All of them said that they were really looking forward to this rotation and were really eager and pumped up ... only to find that it SUCKS !..from the long hours, rude residents and bascally not learning anything, and being treated like a piece of crap.

With the shortage of good surgeons, you would think that the school will go out of their way to get you intrested in this field.... all they are doing now is making sure that no one goes into this field ..... what's up with that ?...

( BTW .. I was 90% sure that this is the field that I wanted to go in, however after last four weeks rotations, I would not even think about doing it because I have totally lost intrest in it )
 
Amen. My surgery rotation was nothing but pain. Nobody was pleasant or even semi-respectful except for, interestingly enough, the chairman of the department. I went into the rotation being rather interested in sugery, and left feeling pretty disillusioned. I won't let one bad rotation totally sour me off of surgery, but it did nothing to help, that's for sure.


True Story, and a Typical Daily Episode from my Surgery Rotation:

Me: "I was thinking 30 mg toradol for this lady..."
Chief Resident: "30?!? For a little old lady like that?! How about 15?"
Me: "Well I wouldn't call her a 'little old lady,' she's 32 with good kidney function..."
Chief (literally screaming, pointing a finger in my face): "DON'T ARGUE WITH ME, BOY!"

So our pretty robust 32-year old woman with good kidney function was thereafter treated as if she was a little old lady in ARF, because you don't argue with a delusional chief.
 
after 2 months in outpatient internal medicine (LOLs in NAD complaining about their artheritis while their OCD husbands scream about the horrible treatment they're getting), surgery looks like super-paradise to me!!!!!

At least as a surgeon, your patients don't try to tell you how to operate on them. Grrr.
 
pikachu said:
after 2 months in outpatient internal medicine (LOLs in NAD complaining about their artheritis while their OCD husbands scream about the horrible treatment they're getting), surgery looks like super-paradise to me!!!!!

At least as a surgeon, your patients don't try to tell you how to operate on them. Grrr.

But you don't operate every moment of every day (or even, for that matter, every day). There's clinic, there's hospital rounds, there's families harassing you from the waiting room, there's etc. etc. etc... I felt like surgery had too much patient contact. This doesn't bode well for my upcoming Medicine rotation...
 
they let you make med suggestions?
when I do more than change dressings they start looking at me funny...
and G-d forbid you ask the question they dont know the answer to!!!
(( uh, what would getting the afp levels on this hep C + lol with a brand new gall bladder removal 6 days ago change in her management?"))
 
Strange. From what I hear it sounds as if Surgery residents/attendings regress to the mental state of a five year old. 🙁
 
sacrament said:
Nobody was pleasant or even semi-respectful except for, interestingly enough, the chairman of the department.

It sounds like Dr. Hunter has special feelings for you sac...
 
kornphan said:
What's up with Surgery rotations ?.. everyone I have talked to here, at my school, and other recent graduates all had nothing good to say about this rotation. All of them said that they were really looking forward to this rotation and were really eager and pumped up ... only to find that it SUCKS !..from the long hours, rude residents and bascally not learning anything, and being treated like a piece of crap.

It's the exact opposite at my school. I heard so many stories about how it was an awful rotation and that they're mean to medical students, but then when I did it, I was stunned at how nice and into teaching (most) everyone was. I think it's because the old chairman was a real ass, and the new guy is really into medical education, has turned it into a really good rotation over the past few years. And recruited residents who don't suck.

OB/Gyn on the other hand... I think the terrible rumors at my school about that rotation are true 🙁
 
TicDouloureux said:
OB/Gyn on the other hand... I think the terrible rumors at my school about that rotation are true 🙁

OB/Gyn is awful. I don't know why those hoes are so hateful.
 
Its funny but everyone I know have the same feelings about surgery. I am going to make a few personal (I said personal) statements that I deciphered from my surgery rotations:
10) I feel that surgeons feel that this field is the only true field of medicine because they "truly cure people", what does primary care medicine (internal medicine) do but treat problems that can't be cured
9) All the surgeons I know seem that they went into the field because they felt special when they went into the OR, and the OR is there domain, they run the show, they can disrespect nurses, med students, and whoever because this is their land
8) Most surgeons I know seem somewhat insecure about there skills when they are truly in the OR but not in front of colleagues, students, or nurses
7) Most surgeons should have the carpet rolled out for them because after all they have delicate hands and most people don't know it, but delicate feet too
6) Surgery is the only medical field that is left that Nurse practitioner's or PA's can't really do
5) As a surgeon, I am special because I can cut through skin, fascia, muscle, and reach an organ because this is truly, truly difficult to do and PS I get to run scopes every now and then and boy! are those things difficult to drive, only a surgeon should be able to drive those
4) As a surgeon, I can tie a knot any boyscout would cringe at.
3) As a surgeon, everyone in the hospital look up to me in awe, because we all know the only real docs are surgeons.
2) As a surgeon, other docs cringe in our presence, women are in awe, and little children quiet in our presence.
1) Don't forget, as a surgeon I AM GOD!!!!!!!!!

I know the above posts are sarcastic but I hope any student that decides to go into surgery. Please don't let it go to your head, Don't have a God Complex because guess what, you are not God and never will be and realize that without us other specialties you wouldn't have anyone to dull your little, shiny scapel on (or hot little electrical thingy). So Good Luck and God Bless.
 
Where are you guys in med school at?
Either, you are the most malignant horrific programs in the world, or you are way to sensative.

For the poster who was complaining about the hours, didn't you know that there were going to be long grueling hours when you decided to go to med school? If you have trouble now what are you going to do when you a resident and are actually working while you are at the hospital?
 
carrigallen said:
It sounds like Dr. Hunter has special feelings for you sac...

He's nice to everybody. He is, quite frankly, the only reason I'm still semi-interested in surgery.
 
starayamoskva said:
Where are you guys in med school at?
Either, you are the most malignant horrific programs in the world, or you are way to sensative.

For the poster who was complaining about the hours, didn't you know that there were going to be long grueling hours when you decided to go to med school? If you have trouble now what are you going to do when you a resident and are actually working while you are at the hospital?

You are missing the point all together !.. No one here is saying anything about the hours/lack of sleep / lack of study time/ lack of food... the point I made is that WE all ( including you ) have worked really really hard to get here right ?.. so why don't they TEACH us ?.. I dont care if they call me names and such.. but wouldn't it be nice if they teach us and make us intrested in this field instead of completly ignoring us and make sure that we are so pissed off with everything and everybody that we decide right then and there that we will never go into Surgery !......
 
Cutting Edge

Not surprisingly, studies find that the frequency of abuse was greatest during the surgical rotation. In one study, eight percent of students were threatened with bodily harm, assault, or assault with a weapon. Perpetrators were most often surgeons.

From the trade journal Medical Economics:

For the most spectacular tantrums, it's hard to match the lords of the operating room. While most surgeons mind their manners, a minority go absolutely bonkers - flinging scalpels, threatening to throw scrub nurses against the wall, kicking equipment, fistfighting with anesthesiologists... 'The throwing of scalpels goes on, but not as much as it used to,' says... a former medical director. 'Maybe one guy out of 30 does it now. It used to be one out of 10.'

In a pilot study, ten percent of students report actually being physically abused (slapped, kicked, or hit) by residents or faculty. Examples were given:

In the OR I was being taught to suture. When I held the forceps improperly I was hit on the knuckles with another instrument by my chief. When I inadvertently did it again I was hit in the same place. After the operation, my knuckles were bleeding and I now have a scar on the back of my right hand.

One student reported he had been kicked in the testicular region by an attending physician and required medical attention for his injury.

Medical student testimonials: "'The abuse felt like someone shoved a vacuum cleaner hose down my throat and sucked everything out of me.' As far as I'm concerned it's been three years of constant abuse and humiliation, and I view it as a time to forget - a sacrifice of 4 years of my life." "My third year experience so completely soured my ideals of medicine that I am now considering becoming a malpractice consultant." Me too damn it. Maybe I'll just get a law degree and sue doctors. Watch them untouchably squirm on the stand.
 
sacrament said:
But you don't operate every moment of every day (or even, for that matter, every day). There's clinic, there's hospital rounds, there's families harassing you from the waiting room, there's etc. etc. etc... I felt like surgery had too much patient contact. This doesn't bode well for my upcoming Medicine rotation...

These are my feelings exactly. Trauma surgery is good in terms of NPC, but its the only surgical specialty that I found to be like this. I absolutely dread surgery clinic.
Me:" So what brings you in to see Dr....?"
Pt: "I have got this (insert bulge/bleeding)"
Me: "Looks like a ..... (Insert hernia/hemorrhoid)
Multiply above by 10-12 times per clinic and you have your general surgery clinic in a nutshell.

I have been seriously considering path and possibly rads because of my strong desire to avoid clinics at all cost.
2 more weeks to go, hopefully there wont be too many more hernia repairs/hemorrhoidectomies.
 
I, too, had an intrest in general surgery before my rotation, and when it ends in two weeks, I'm pretty certain I will have none. I don't feel particularly abused, because even though the residents do tend to be a bit rough with me, I am learning a lot. And yes, a general surgery rotation involves so much more than simply holding a retractor. Perioperative care and decision making are huge. The reasons I have turned against surgery are a few:

1) Lack of sleep and spare time. Although medicine is full of this, surgery appears to be the extreme example. There is one other student besides me doing a surgery rotation at my hospital. We generally arrive at the hospital two hours before every other student, and we often leave one to three hours later than everyone else. I really don't have time to do anything other than sleep and pre-read for the next day. I'm sure my experience is typical of most other students in surgery...

2) The actual operations I have seen so far are not very interesting. Herniorrhaphies- how many times can you go over the layers of the abdominal wall?
Lap cholies- cool the first time you see it, routine there-on after.
Biopsy- Unless it's something big and fungegating, these generally aren't anymore insteresting than a hernia repair.

3) I have not found surgeons to have over-sized egos. However, they do tend to be rather aggressive and impatient. Not exactly the type with whom you want to converse at 5:00 am, before the hospital has brewed it's first batch of coffee.

Of course, everyone has a unique experience. Your's might be completely different, and you may even find herniorraphies to be your life's calling. If so, welcome to general surgery.
 
I had the opposite experience. I had no intention of going into surgery, then my rotation was so incredible....that's my field of choice now.

If you think you are even REMOTELY still interested in surgery - if your institution allows it - do an 'out' rotation at another facility next summer. Talk to other students and find out where the 'good' rotation sites are. I loved my surgery rotation and had a blast.

Please don't write surgery off just because you had a bad month....it's not the same everywhere. If you have even the slightest interest in that brain of yours after the crappy rotation - please, schedule another.
 
surgery sucks. yup. it sure does.
 
I think the surgery residents are the most depressed and unhappy out of all the fields. This is why I probably wont end up going into it. Most students at my school really like the rotation but dont want to do it because of the long hours and the level of misery that we see everyday!
 
waldowaldo said:
surgery sucks. yup. it sure does.

And once they suck everything out of you, they ask for more and more and more ... but make sure you keep smiling 😀
 
kornphan said:
You are missing the point all together !.. No one here is saying anything about the hours/lack of sleep / lack of study time/ lack of food... the point I made is that WE all ( including you ) have worked really really hard to get here right ?.. so why don't they TEACH us ?.. I dont care if they call me names and such.. but wouldn't it be nice if they teach us and make us intrested in this field instead of completly ignoring us and make sure that we are so pissed off with everything and everybody that we decide right then and there that we will never go into Surgery !......

Perhaps you missed my point, it isn't like that at my school. They do teach us! They do make an effort to make us interested in the field. They don't ignore us and they DO treat us with respect and obviously, the majority of programs are just like the program at our school or surgery wouldn't be any where near as competative a residency as it currently is.
 
starayamoskva said:
Perhaps you missed my point, it isn't like that at my school. They do teach us! They do make an effort to make us interested in the field. They don't ignore us and they DO treat us with respect and obviously, the majority of programs are just like the program at our school or surgery wouldn't be any where near as competative a residency as it currently is.

Obviously you are going to a "Student Friendly" school... majority of us are not !.. and except for your school, I have heard it's no where as competative as it used to be...
 
kornphan said:
Obviously you are going to a "Student Friendly" school... majority of us are not !.. and except for your school, I have heard it's no where as competative as it used to be...

There were only two unfilled categorical spots Nationwide for last years match. That is competative no matter how you slice it.
 
starayamoskva said:
There were only two unfilled categorical spots Nationwide for last years match. That is competative no matter how you slice it.

Pardon my ignorance, but how does unfilled spots correlate with competitiveness. Does that number in any way reflect the average board scores or % of applicants with AOA, etc? Seriously, I'm asking because it seems to me just because the all the spots get filled it doesn't necessarily mean those spots were hard to get. See what I'm saying?

Spang
 
Spang said:
Pardon my ignorance, but how does unfilled spots correlate with competitiveness. Does that number in any way reflect the average board scores or % of applicants with AOA, etc? Seriously, I'm asking because it seems to me just because the all the spots get filled it doesn't necessarily mean those spots were hard to get. See what I'm saying?

Spang

The number of unfilled spots correlates to the difficulty of getting a spot for residency. Spend some time in the surgery forum, read Iserson's and check out the information on scutwork.
 
sacrament said:
Amen. My surgery rotation was nothing but pain. Nobody was pleasant or even semi-respectful except for, interestingly enough, the chairman of the department. I went into the rotation being rather interested in sugery, and left feeling pretty disillusioned. I won't let one bad rotation totally sour me off of surgery, but it did nothing to help, that's for sure.


True Story, and a Typical Daily Episode from my Surgery Rotation:

Me: "I was thinking 30 mg toradol for this lady..."
Chief Resident: "30?!? For a little old lady like that?! How about 15?"
Me: "Well I wouldn't call her a 'little old lady,' she's 32 with good kidney function..."
Chief (literally screaming, pointing a finger in my face): "DON'T ARGUE WITH ME, BOY!"

So our pretty robust 32-year old woman with good kidney function was thereafter treated as if she was a little old lady in ARF, because you don't argue with a delusional chief.


I'm a pharmacist at a large medical center. Some of the orders I see from surgeons (especially orthopods) are laughably stupid. I had one orthopod try to prescribe sublingual nifedipine for hypertensive urgencies! I know these doctors are great at what they do, but I'm glad that I'm helping out the internists in looking out for these patients.
 
I hate hearing stories like this. Surgery is definely not for everyone, but it should not be a horrible experience. Even the rotation I disliked the most in med school didn't turn me into a raging hater of all people in that field.

Surgery residency one of the most physically demanding. Even though hours are improving, surgery residents are probaby the most fatigued in any hospital. It's hard to be your best all the time when you are exausted. If a medicine resident snaps at someone, you guys would assume that person is having a bad day. Surgery resident snaps at someone, and it proves the theory that all surgeons are a$$h..les.

There is a great deal of concern within the field that it has become less attractive to medical students, and every surgical society meeting includes a discussion as to how to improve that. At the same time, it still remains relatively competitive, with few unmatched positions (in fact one of the most reliable measures of how competitive a field is)

Also surgeons specialize in SURGiCAL management, not medical management. Our medical management orders aren't up to the same standards that the IM docs are because we don't spend our time focusin on that. SL nifedipiene used to be used commonly for hypertensive urgencies...probably was being used at some early point in that othopod's med school training. Medicine people, can you tell me whether a retroperitonal approach or an intraabominal approach is better to repair your pt's AAA? Or would the pt be better served by an endovascualar AAA repair? Don't know? Following the same logic often applied by you for surgeons, that makes you stupid.

We all have our areas of expertise. Not being an expert in areas outside of your field doesn't make you stupid.

And if you had a bad experience with the personalities on a rotation of your area of interest, but still like the type work, try an elective at another institution. You'll probably like it better in a different instituitional culture.
Most surgeons are nice, fun people. Too bad your institution selects these people out.
 
supercut said:
Also surgeons specialize in SURGiCAL management, not medical management. Our medical management orders aren't up to the same standards that the IM docs are because we don't spend our time focusin on that. SL nifedipiene used to be used commonly for hypertensive urgencies...probably was being used at some early point in that othopod's med school training. Medicine people, can you tell me whether a retroperitonal approach or an intraabominal approach is better to repair your pt's AAA? Or would the pt be better served by an endovascualar AAA repair? Don't know? Following the same logic often applied by you for surgeons, that makes you stupid.

Yeah, but most medicine people would admit they don't know the better approach to an AAA repair... they wouldn't just pick one and then yell "I'M RIGHT, DON'T ARGUE WITH ME!"
 
I loved surgery for about two weeks, now, after having spent six weeks in surgery, I've grown to hate it. My experience with surgery has been awful due to the very malignant culture that is fostered at my site.

I've found my experience to be utterly frustrating due to the following (there are more reasons, but I've only listed a few...):

1- the residents are plain nasty. I understand that they are overworked and tired, but that does not excuse them from being chronically nasty. I've also found it quite interesting that the surgery interns are extremely nice to the P.A. students, yet horribly nasty to the med students. It seems that surgery residents have forgotten what it's like to be a med student- meaning, that the first two years of med school focuses on the science behind medicine and NOT the clinical aspects. I have a sneaking suspicion that the residents at my site are overwhelmingly nice to the P.A. students due the fact that these students have the upper-hand when it comes to clinical stuff (writing soap notes, knowing how to perform procedures, etc...).

2- the residents just don't want to teach. I was yelled at by my chief resident last night when I asked him to show me how to inject contrast into an NG tube. He looked at me like I was ******ed when I asked him to show me and he further went on to tell me it was common sense. 🙄 I had now idea what a f'n piston tube was last night also, so this wasn't exactly common sense to me 🙄 Also, surgery is my first clerkship. I had no idea how to write a soap note, and it took 3 weeks for one of the residents to actually teach me how to write one. I was labeled a 'disorganized' student since I was unable to write a coherent soap note for the first three weeks.

3- The residents expect us to read their minds. If we don't, we are yelled at accordingly. Oh, and getting yelled at is something that I endure all day and from varying sources: attendings, residents, scrub nurses, cafeteria workers (just kidding here, but you get the picture). By the way, most students at my site have similar complaints of getting yelled at by just about everybody they encounter.

4- When the residents are not yelling at us, they go out of their way to make sure that it is known to us that we are 'bastard children' who exist to simply annoy them. Most current example I can give on this would be the following: at this past week's morbidity and mortality session, my friend was holding a seat for me while I got coffee before the session started. An intern came by and wanted to sit in this seat (mind you that the room was full of empty seats). My friend told him that I was sitting there (and my book was on the seat), he proceeded to tell her that he 'was pulling rank' and then proceeded to sit on her hand. 🙄 Another example of this would be breakfast time. The residents have us follow them in the morning to the cafeteria, and we are not allowed to sit with them. We are to sit at the side tables (this seating arrangement reminds me of the kiddie tables that I sat at when attending family dinners), if one of the students dares to sit at the big people's table, they are told to move by a resident if one happens to come in late to breakfast.

5- Retracting and cutting stitches for 8 hours straight is fine with me, as long as the resident doesn't mind explaining a few things to me after the surgery. Unfortunately, more often that not, the resident doesn't want to teach (see 2), and the attending pretends that the students aren't there (except when you don't read their mind correctly when it comes to stuff like knowing the exact way a particular attending likes his sutures cut- making this dire mistake will lead to recognition in the form of yelling more often than not).

I absolutely detest surgery at the moment. I'm sick of the malignant personalities, the daily beratings, and the overall attitude that surgeons are smarter than everyone on the planet (which is rampant where I am, and I know this since I hear on a daily basis how much smarter the surgeons are compared to everyone else in the hospital). What gets me most though is the lack of teaching. I don't mind having my ass scutted out all day long, as long as I received some form of teaching in return.

Oh well, I've got two more weeks to go 😎
 
supercut said:
I hate hearing stories like this. Surgery is definely not for everyone, but it should not be a horrible experience. Even the rotation I disliked the most in med school didn't turn me into a raging hater of all people in that field.

Surgery residency one of the most physically demanding. Even though hours are improving, surgery residents are probaby the most fatigued in any hospital. It's hard to be your best all the time when you are exausted. If a medicine resident snaps at someone, you guys would assume that person is having a bad day. Surgery resident snaps at someone, and it proves the theory that all surgeons are a$$h..les.

There is a great deal of concern within the field that it has become less attractive to medical students, and every surgical society meeting includes a discussion as to how to improve that. At the same time, it still remains relatively competitive, with few unmatched positions (in fact one of the most reliable measures of how competitive a field is)

Also surgeons specialize in SURGiCAL management, not medical management. Our medical management orders aren't up to the same standards that the IM docs are because we don't spend our time focusin on that. SL nifedipiene used to be used commonly for hypertensive urgencies...probably was being used at some early point in that othopod's med school training. Medicine people, can you tell me whether a retroperitonal approach or an intraabominal approach is better to repair your pt's AAA? Or would the pt be better served by an endovascualar AAA repair? Don't know? Following the same logic often applied by you for surgeons, that makes you stupid.

We all have our areas of expertise. Not being an expert in areas outside of your field doesn't make you stupid.

And if you had a bad experience with the personalities on a rotation of your area of interest, but still like the type work, try an elective at another institution. You'll probably like it better in a different instituitional culture.
Most surgeons are nice, fun people. Too bad your institution selects these people out.
right on. 👍
 
The brutal nature of surgery has more to do with tradition and culture than it does with teaching surgery or improving one's surgical skills. I attribute surgery to certain sports such as football. It's part of the culture of surgery to berate and belittle you as much as possible for you to learn. The attendings and residents who are doing this to you experienced the same and thus are passing on their legacy of abuse. It's part of the nature of surgery. I think if you can keep things in perspective and not take it personally, it shouldn't disturb you as much. However, I got tired of the abuse and realized that I couldn't spend 5 years of my life enduring this on a daily basis. I just felt that I'm too old for this fraternity like hazing. I dealt with it in undergrad. I don't want to deal with it when i have a wife and kids. It wasn't for me.
 
Would you be willing to share which programs you've had these experiences with? I'm currently applying for residency programs, and info on which programs are potentially malignant would be appreciated, as they do not advertise this on their websites. 😀

Thanks!
 
yeah, seriously, could you folks indicate which program you were/are at when you talk about good/bad experiences, rather than just play "Program X," which helps no one?
 
I've been at at total of 4 programs, including my med school, visiting electives and my current program. I had good experiences at them all. Nothing like what the posters who are having bad experience here describe.

Each program has a few attendings who are on the edge. Of the places I was, the one elective I did in NYC (at Jacobi) was probably the most malignant. It was a tough environment with very poor ancillary services and a run down facility. Residents tended to be rude with one another but got over it fast. I was treated fine as a student.

Some programs for whatever reason seem to foster a very mean culture. At my med school, it was the OB residents who were consistenly mean. I'm not sure why. But if you think you might be interested in surgery, again, please consider doing an elective elsewhere before you make the final decision. Programs vary widely in their internal culture.
 
starayamoskva said:
Perhaps you missed my point, it isn't like that at my school. They do teach us! They do make an effort to make us interested in the field. They don't ignore us and they DO treat us with respect and obviously, the majority of programs are just like the program at our school or surgery wouldn't be any where near as competative a residency as it currently is.

Now that's truly funny. General surgery becomes less competitive every year. You couldn't find a unfilled spots in surgery 15 years ago. Look at the number of DO's and IMG's that match into surgery now versus then. 15 years ago, people dealt with the abuse because of the income surgeons would make. Now with managed care, lawsuits and malpractice costs, surgery is no longer the field it was. So now people are saying "To hell with surgery" because it's just not worth it any longer. And let's be honest, the malignant atmosphere of surgery has never kept out people in the past. People just deal with it.

The reason why surgery attracts anyone now is because it is still very interesting to work with your hands and the prestige that goes along with it.
 
azcomdiddy said:
Now that's truly funny. General surgery becomes less competitive every year. You couldn't find a unfilled spots in surgery 15 years ago. Look at the number of DO's and IMG's that match into surgery now versus then. 15 years ago, people dealt with the abuse because of the income surgeons would make. Now with managed care, lawsuits and malpractice costs, surgery is no longer the field it was. So now people are saying "To hell with surgery" because it's just not worth it any longer. And let's be honest, the malignant atmosphere of surgery has never kept out people in the past. People just deal with it.

The reason why surgery attracts anyone now is because it is still very interesting to work with your hands and the prestige that goes along with it.

I don't really understand why surgery is considered such a prestigious field of medicine. I think if the public knew how their surgeons acted when they weren't in the presence of the patient, they would lose any prestige they have in the public. Some of these guys are like Jekyl and Hyde. Nice and cordial to the patient, then calling the students names the next minute.

By the way, don't put up with name calling and other forms of abuse from your residents. It wouldn't be tolerated anywhere except in medicine, which only confirms my belief that medicine is more a form of indentured servitude than a career. You won't ever hear tell of a business person being treated by their superiors the way med students are by the surgeons.
 
That's unfortunate. The surgery team I'm rotating with is fantastic. So fantastic that we bought the interns a gift (of the EtOH variety) at the end of their time to thank them for being so helpful in teaching us. The registrar and consultant ask us questions, but they don't slam us for not knowing...they take time out during the surgery or outpatients or whatever they're doing to answer our questions or divulge more into a patient's condition, and they're good to chat too as well. They're always cracking jokes, it's fantastic. I really like surgery except sometimes for the repetitive nature and the hours of standing.
 
GeddyLee said:
You won't ever hear tell of a business person being treated by their superiors the way med students are by the surgeons.

Uh...ever heard of Investment Bankers.

Thing is you have to put up with it unless you are going into family practice and your clerkship grades don't weigh much. To the rest of us, 3rd year grades mean everything and one failing grade or a "pass" can hurt you. Tell a surgeon off or if he learns you reported him, you are dead meat. They have you by the balls and there is nothing you can do about it.
 
MD'05 said:
OB/Gyn is awful. I don't know why those hoes are so hateful.


Ha ha. Too true. On that service I saw students and residents reduced to tears during "rounds" (that four hour chart-fest where we'd sit at a table and rattle out the same details day after day). Oh and the interminable gossiping. Makes me wince even to think about it. And those hoes really love to gang up. They seem to pick their mark in the first day or two and reign down hell on them for the duration. It wasn't me but it made me sick just to have to watch it. Really nasty.
 
I really like surgery. But most of the above complaints are true. I found my surgery rotation much easier after I worked out that surgery is basically an extra branch of the military. I started acting accordinly. Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir and it all became much smoother.

Personally, being shouted at doesn't bother me. I find it very clear and I make whatever adjustment is necessary right away. This is just a quirk of my personality. I can't stand passive aggression and wondering what I did wrong or when even. That's something that exists way more in non-surgical fields. I know lots of ok people who prefer it that way, finding it more polite and civilized. I just find it odd and confusing. More sophisticated people seem to find surgery quite primative. But to someone simple minded like me it feels like home. Just my two cents.
 
That's true. Surgery does resemble the military very much. That's probably going to change, but the change will come slowly.

As I was reviewing this thread again, something jumped out at me that never had before. One poster complained that the residents didn't teach him/her how to write a progress note.

I find it absolutely APALLING that your medical school isn't doing this before you hit the clincal area. Are you learning how to write H&P's before your rotation, or is the school dumping that on the residents too? You should demand that your school teach you the basic skills needed before you get to the clinical area. I expect at a minumum, that my students know on day 1 the following: How to do a physical exam, how to write H&P, how to write a progress note, and how to present a pt. I don't expect them to be perfect, and I also expect that they may not know what important things to focus on for surgcial pts entails. I also expect that the students will arrive early enough to see the pt before the intern does (without forcing the intern to alter their schedule), to be reading and reviewing relevant anatomy. If your school isn't providing you with the necessary preparation, you should complain over and over until they do. I'm love to have students, and have gotten great evaluations from students. But teaching students does take time and it does slow me down and I'd be annoyed if they didn't have the basic skill set needed to survive in the wards.
 
I thought the same thing when the poster said she didn't know how to write a SOAP note. We started learning how to write a SOAP note during our MS-I year. It should not be the job of residents to teach students how to write a note - all students should know how to do that by the time rotations start.

And to contribute my two cents about my surgery rotation, I must have been one of the few lucky ones who had a good surgery rotation. The attendings and residents were all really nice, and I never got yelled at or degraded in any way. (I can't believe the story about not being able to sit at the same table as the residents! 😱 ) It sucks that some of you guys have had such bad experiences...
 
This is pretty disturbing. If I'd had the same experience as a medical student I never would have chosen surgery as a career. I'm WAY TOO sensitive for such criticism. I hope that those of you who are experiencing such pain see it as a product of the personalities (of which surgery does tend to draw some unpleasant ones) and not the field itself, which can be fun and rewarding.
 
I am a surgery resident who loves to teach, and students often tell me I take the time to teach more than any other residents. I will admit though that I teach more to the students who work hard and show interets and take initiative to try to figure out how to help the team without waiting to be told.

How about sitting down with some charts and reading thru other people's SOAP notes, h and p's, ect and learning on your own how to do them? It's not that tough if you look at a few examples. And there's nothing wrong with students asking the interns frequently "what can I do to help?", or better yet, just taking it upon yourself to check on your patients throughout the day or follow up on things talked about for the plan during morning rounds, check in with the interns and update them on your patients.

Really, some students need to take some more responsibility for their role on the team and not wait to be spoon fed.

Surgery residents don't ingnore you b/c they're mean, they ignore you because they are extremely busy and don't have time deal with students who act like they're bored and just waiting to be told to go home asap. I know this isn't everyone - I've had some excellent students, but some of you whiners need to quit blaming the residents for you not getting anything out of your rotation.
 
fourthyear said:
Surgery residents don't ingnore you b/c they're mean, they ignore you because they are extremely busy and don't have time deal with students who act like they're bored and just waiting to be told to go home asap. I know this isn't everyone - I've had some excellent students, but some of you whiners need to quit blaming the residents for you not getting anything out of your rotation.

Sounds like very sound advice. Too many students are expecting a guided safari, where they should be grabbing the map, the pith helmet, and the elephant gun and dashing off into the tall grasses.

BUT, first son of a bitch attending to knee me in the nuts is getting a broken jaw. (I don't mind waiting five years to exact my revenge, either. I'll wait as long as I have to.)

--Funkless
 
For all those who stated that my school should have taught me how to write a soap note- I am in total agreement. However, they didn't and I paid for that on the wards. The clinical experience (really, the lack of) during the first two years at my school is awful.

Unfortunately, I was quite unprepared for surgery (especially since it was my first clerkship). However, I do believe that a resident should have taken ten minutes out of their day to teach me how to write a coherent soap note. Especially, since the soap notes at my hospital are quite unlike the soap note templates in Recall and Maxwell's. I don't believe that a resident spending a couple of minutes to teach me how to write a soap note is equivalent to "spoon-feeding". Actually, I find it a bit counterproductive to not teach me such a simple skill (not so simple when you are starting though)- I'm sure I was a complete pain in the butt in the morning due to the fact that I was so disorganized on rounds.

Anyhow, surgery ends for me next week, and I can happily report that I'm not leaving surgery on a bitter note. I've been rotating on the vascular service, and I'm completely enamoured with vascular surgery. I love vascular so much so, that I could imagine pursuing such speciality. Also, I was lucky enough to have a phenomenal chief resident during my vascular experience. I'm actually going to miss surgery, when it ends, since I really enjoy vascular 🙁 . I'm onto family med next, and I have a sneaking suspicion that I won't enjoy it all that much.
 
My school taught us in very general terms how to write notes. But the reality is that every rotation has their own funky rules about how to do them. And many residents sort of play games with the issue. i.e. everything you do is wrong and they won't tell you what right is. The best thing is to come in early on your first day and look through the notes made by the last batch of studs toward the end of their rotation when their learn had already curved. Just use those as a template and you almost can't go wrong. They'll say you're wrong anyway but they'll have less ammunition. 🙂
 
I'm a couple of weeks into my surgery rotation and now I just wish to be put in a coma and wake up when it's all over. On the first day of the rotation they spent half of the day talking about how they're "aggressive aggressive" and that we shouldn't take anything personally but instead take them as constructive feedback to help us improve. That's total crap. These people are not just "aggressive," they're down right nasty. I observe the surgeons chew others out when they're together then chew each other out behind each other's back. At times it's almost bad medicine at its finest - they treat only the disease and have no regard for the patient's, or anyone else's humanity. The amazing thing is that the high-up they are on the hierarchy chain, the nastier they seem become and they slowly shed off all the virtues of humanity. This nastiness is like a disease and it infects everyone who gets in contact with them (nurses, scrub tech, us, etc).

Surgeons are like the linings of the stomach - they reside in a highly stressful environment dealing with the worst things the body has to see everyday. To survive they secret acids to dissolve everything that crosses them. So where do the medical students fit in this picture? We are the little esophageal linings at the EG junction getting lots of acid reflux.

My problem with this rotation is not that I'm not learning. It's true that I get ignored here and there and get yelled at for both doing too much or too little, but as a clueless student who just started on the rotation I'm sure that aspect will improve with experience. I just don't agree with the way they treat others and I'm glad to know that I'm not alone.
 
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I loved surgery for about two weeks, now, after having spent six weeks in surgery, I've grown to hate it. My experience with surgery has been awful due to the very malignant culture that is fostered at my site.

I've found my experience to be utterly frustrating due to the following (there are more reasons, but I've only listed a few...):

1- the residents are plain nasty. I understand that they are overworked and tired, but that does not excuse them from being chronically nasty. I've also found it quite interesting that the surgery interns are extremely nice to the P.A. students, yet horribly nasty to the med students. It seems that surgery residents have forgotten what it's like to be a med student- meaning, that the first two years of med school focuses on the science behind medicine and NOT the clinical aspects. I have a sneaking suspicion that the residents at my site are overwhelmingly nice to the P.A. students due the fact that these students have the upper-hand when it comes to clinical stuff (writing soap notes, knowing how to perform procedures, etc...).

2- the residents just don't want to teach. I was yelled at by my chief resident last night when I asked him to show me how to inject contrast into an NG tube. He looked at me like I was ******ed when I asked him to show me and he further went on to tell me it was common sense. 🙄 I had now idea what a f'n piston tube was last night also, so this wasn't exactly common sense to me 🙄 Also, surgery is my first clerkship. I had no idea how to write a soap note, and it took 3 weeks for one of the residents to actually teach me how to write one. I was labeled a 'disorganized' student since I was unable to write a coherent soap note for the first three weeks.

3- The residents expect us to read their minds. If we don't, we are yelled at accordingly. Oh, and getting yelled at is something that I endure all day and from varying sources: attendings, residents, scrub nurses, cafeteria workers (just kidding here, but you get the picture). By the way, most students at my site have similar complaints of getting yelled at by just about everybody they encounter.

4- When the residents are not yelling at us, they go out of their way to make sure that it is known to us that we are 'bastard children' who exist to simply annoy them. Most current example I can give on this would be the following: at this past week's morbidity and mortality session, my friend was holding a seat for me while I got coffee before the session started. An intern came by and wanted to sit in this seat (mind you that the room was full of empty seats). My friend told him that I was sitting there (and my book was on the seat), he proceeded to tell her that he 'was pulling rank' and then proceeded to sit on her hand. 🙄 Another example of this would be breakfast time. The residents have us follow them in the morning to the cafeteria, and we are not allowed to sit with them. We are to sit at the side tables (this seating arrangement reminds me of the kiddie tables that I sat at when attending family dinners), if one of the students dares to sit at the big people's table, they are told to move by a resident if one happens to come in late to breakfast.

5- Retracting and cutting stitches for 8 hours straight is fine with me, as long as the resident doesn't mind explaining a few things to me after the surgery. Unfortunately, more often that not, the resident doesn't want to teach (see 2), and the attending pretends that the students aren't there (except when you don't read their mind correctly when it comes to stuff like knowing the exact way a particular attending likes his sutures cut- making this dire mistake will lead to recognition in the form of yelling more often than not).

I absolutely detest surgery at the moment. I'm sick of the malignant personalities, the daily beratings, and the overall attitude that surgeons are smarter than everyone on the planet (which is rampant where I am, and I know this since I hear on a daily basis how much smarter the surgeons are compared to everyone else in the hospital). What gets me most though is the lack of teaching. I don't mind having my ass scutted out all day long, as long as I received some form of teaching in return.

Oh well, I've got two more weeks to go 😎

I don't know about your program, but at least where I am, the PA students are all hot, female, blonde, and leggy. That might explain the attitude.
 
I did not expect to enjoy surgery at all. I therefore chose to be at a hospital other than my school's main hospital and ended up loving the experience - not quite enough to decide to go into GS, but I considered it.

The surgeon that was in charge of the rotation was really excited about teaching and that was reflected in the attitudes of the residents too. It was a very different experience from normal as there are only 3 residents at a time and they are all from different programs and only rotate there for a few months. There was an aspect of us (students and residents) all learning the computer system and little quirks of the hospital together as a team. I do sometimes wonder how different my experiences would have been with the exact same residents at their home hospitals.
 
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