Surgery Rotations : Is their goal to make sure that NO one goes into this field ?

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This thread was created when I had just gotten my MCAT score back as a junior. Now I'm a PGY-3 in surgery....

The goal of the surgery rotation is to talk you out of doing surgery. If they fail, then you go into surgery 😀
 
What are with these crazy necro threads? 8 years folks? I haven't heard nearly the same complaints from past 2 years worth of MS3s. I would say the light that has been shed on the abuse issue has helped reform many surgery programs from being as abusive towards students.
 
What are with these crazy necro threads? 8 years folks? I haven't heard nearly the same complaints from past 2 years worth of MS3s. I would say the light that has been shed on the abuse issue has helped reform many surgery programs from being as abusive towards students.

I haven't run into as many of the same issues discussed earlier (violent tendencies of some of the residents/attendings, physical abuse, etc) but some of these issues with surgical rotations and residency are still alive and kicking.

I had a half good/half bad surgical rotation. I had a lot of nasty residents, but I had a lot of great attendings. I liked dealing with emergent cases and surgical diseases. My reason for not going into surgery has more to do with the fact that I hated spending hours and hours in the OR dissecting fascial layers, spending 10 minutes of the actual operation doing something, and then spending another hour plus closing up. It was the most boring monotonous time I've ever spent; at least with properly conducted medical rounds I was learning things, and there's opportunity for procedural specialties in medicine. Just saying this was my personal experience, not that it should be generalized to encompass how the field works. I also didn't like the attitude that they would routinely gloss over the patients' medical issues, and while this might have just been part of where I did my rotations, I disliked it all the same; I remember one of my senior attendings on surgery actually reprimanding a resident for ignoring one of the medical issues of a patient as "non-emergent" because in his words, "a good surgeon knows good medicine".

All in all, I think there's still some major issues - many people I've run into like the field but hate the culture and that's why they go into things like Anesthesia or EM.
 
Maybe it's because my school's surgery residency program has a reputation for being very benign, but in my 3 months on surgery last year, I only encountered maybe 1 truly malignant individual. The vast majority of residents and attendings were extremely nice, helpful, and willing to teach. I went in to this rotation trying very hard not to like surgery, but ended up falling in love with it anyway.
 
What are with these crazy necro threads? 8 years folks? I haven't heard nearly the same complaints from past 2 years worth of MS3s. I would say the light that has been shed on the abuse issue has helped reform many surgery programs from being as abusive towards students.

Not directed at you.

But explain this...everyone gets all pissy on SDN saying "use search function" but then when someone does and it happens to be an old thread everyone complains about necro bumps...just an observation.
 
Not directed at you.

But explain this...everyone gets all pissy on SDN saying "use search function" but then when someone does and it happens to be an old thread everyone complains about necro bumps...just an observation.

I think there is a significant difference between doing a search on a topic that has been posted about it in the past year or two vs something more significant like 5+ years ago.

For example, I would say most people do not believe that the OP from 8 years ago is accurate today.

I don't know what my cut off is. As long as it is not an EXTREMELY overasked question/statement (like, what are my chances for getting into blahblahblah, or, OMG nurses suck so bad!, or "How do I pre-read for MS1"), I don't really mind it being a new thread. Before I start a new thread I took a quick search to see if there's anything within the past few months at max. If there isn't, I just post a new one and people don't seem to really care.

The main times it is an issue is when there are two threads on the first page both relating to the EXACT same topic. That's when everyone's butt puckers and steam starts flying.
 
A few days ago, I laughed at this thread. Now, I'm starting to think it's accurate.

Yesterday, during lunch, we were talking about Step scores and interview cutoffs. My attending brought up a score and said, "We had this cutoff at the last place I worked." Everyone murmured and another attending said, "Scores like that only attract a certain type of student. Those students go to powerhouses and eventually become program directors in major academic institutions."

Meanwhile, I had scored higher than said cutoff and they haven't let me do jack all in the past week and two days. Talk about trying to push someone away from a specialty.
 
A few days ago, I laughed at this thread. Now, I'm starting to think it's accurate.

Yesterday, during lunch, we were talking about Step scores and interview cutoffs. My attending brought up a score and said, "We had this cutoff at the last place I worked." Everyone murmured and another attending said, "Scores like that only attract a certain type of student. Those students go to powerhouses and eventually become program directors in major academic institutions."

Meanwhile, I had scored higher than said cutoff and they haven't let me do jack all in the past week and two days. Talk about trying to push someone away from a specialty.

Casually drop your score report into the field during a case.
 
Not directed at you.

But explain this...everyone gets all pissy on SDN saying "use search function" but then when someone does and it happens to be an old thread everyone complains about necro bumps...just an observation.
This thread was originally posted 1 year after the ACGME work hour restriction went into effect, and probably 1-2 years before anyone paid any attention to the work hour restrictions. The expectations and attitudes in a surgery rotation were probably quite different 8 years ago. "Using the search function" and bumping an 8-year old thread are not the same thing here.
 
Casually drop your score report into the field during a case.

I would, but there's another student rotating on the service with me. One way or another, someone would feel bad after that exchange.

This thread was originally posted 1 year after the ACGME work hour restriction went into effect, and probably 1-2 years before anyone paid any attention to the work hour restrictions. The expectations and attitudes in a surgery rotation were probably quite different 8 years ago. "Using the search function" and bumping an 8-year old thread are not the same thing here.

I didn't even realize how old it was. Talk about not paying attention to time stamps.
 
It seems to be a universal issue. The head of the department of surgery in my school once said public health physicians don't deserve to be called doctors. He also said the Ob/Gyn guys don't deserve to be called surgeons because they operate on only 1% of the human body.
I don't know whether the surgery specialty starts off a personality change or those who go into surgery residency had those traits in them all along.
 
It seems to be a universal issue. The head of the department of surgery in my school once said public health physicians don't deserve to be called doctors. He also said the Ob/Gyn guys don't deserve to be called surgeons because they operate on only 1% of the human body.
I don't know whether the surgery specialty starts off a personality change or those who go into surgery residency had those traits in them all along.

That guy sounds like a real douchebag. I'm sure the other departments must love him.

For the most part most of the attending surgeons I know have been nice, pleasant people but occasionally you'll get this egotistical jerk type attitude in every field with someone who thinks they're better than everyone else. Most of the bad attitude I got in surgery were the residents who hadn't gotten their egos kicked down a few notches.

At the end of the day every field of medicine is very important and patients benefit from all of them.
 
It seems to be a universal issue. The head of the department of surgery in my school once said public health physicians don't deserve to be called doctors. He also said the Ob/Gyn guys don't deserve to be called surgeons because they operate on only 1% of the human body.
I don't know whether the surgery specialty starts off a personality change or those who go into surgery residency had those traits in them all along.


I didn't know that the uterus + fallopian tubes + vagina + ovaries were only 1% of the human body.

If you're an ENT surgeon I think your total volume of surgical area is relatively similar to an OB/gyn... are those not real surgeons either?

Not attacking you personally, but it goes to show there are jerks in all fields. Sounds like a malignant person to be the head of any department in medical school, especially if he lets his (what should be) private feelings on other medical professions show to students.
 
It seems to be a universal issue. The head of the department of surgery in my school once said public health physicians don't deserve to be called doctors. He also said the Ob/Gyn guys don't deserve to be called surgeons because they operate on only 1% of the human body.

He sounds like a real gem. While those attitudes exist, most of us (especially outside of academics where we have to place nice with each other) realize we need each other and respect the other specialities.

The issue of whether Ob-Gyns are surgeons is historically a controversial one. Even some Ob-Gyns will tell you that they don't consider themselves surgeons; Gyn Oncs? A different breed entirely. Using the "hand rule" in which the entire hand accounts for 0.8% of TBSA, you could say that the female genital tract really doesn't account for much more than 2% of the body (presuming non-parous/non Kate Gosselin uterus) and normal BMI.

I don't know whether the surgery specialty starts off a personality change or those who go into surgery residency had those traits in them all along.

Another long debated issue. Probably a bit of both. Type A assertive personalities driven to a specialty where being aggressive is rewarded and in some instances, encouraged. That being said, with changes in training (its hard to be nice when working 120 hours/week and you're dead tired of arguing), it remains to be seen in the newer generation of surgeons will be nicer. The ORs no longer tolerate the surgeon of old, known for being abrasive, throwing instruments, etc.
 
This is pretty disturbing. If I'd had the same experience as a medical student I never would have chosen surgery as a career. I'm WAY TOO sensitive for such criticism. I hope that those of you who are experiencing such pain see it as a product of the personalities (of which surgery does tend to draw some unpleasant ones) and not the field itself, which can be fun and rewarding.

Wait wait you mean its not normal to be called names, interrupted and have my hands slapped and or hit in the OR? I've actually had things thrown at me but more in a tantrumesque fashion not personally at me. I personally find surgeon tantrums to be amongst the most entertaining in medicine. But I would say I wouldn't let the people you meet sway you too far in either direction do what you love. Honestly I find even the most miserable SOB's respond to hard work vs. time spent with said person, some people really put you through it to earn their respect.
 
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Wait wait you mean its not normal to be called names, interrupted and have my hands slapped and or hit in the OR?

Normal? In the real world? No.

In the OR? Unfortunately in some places it still is.

NB: Interestingly I wrote that post as a senior resident in 2004. While my surgical residency wasn't the most malignant (by far) it was a shock coming from a medical school where I was encouraged and coddled. Fortunately, I was never hit but there was teaching by humiliation from some attendings.
 
It seems to be a universal issue. The head of the department of surgery in my school once said public health physicians don't deserve to be called doctors. He also said the Ob/Gyn guys don't deserve to be called surgeons because they operate on only 1% of the human body.

Oh, okay, so a cardiac surgeon shouldn't be considered a surgeon either because s/he operates only on the heart?
 
Wait wait you mean its not normal to be called names, interrupted and have my hands slapped and or hit in the OR? I've actually had things thrown at me but more in a tantrumesque fashion not personally at me. I personally find surgeon tantrums to be amongst the most entertaining in medicine. But I would say I wouldn't let the people you meet sway you too far in either direction do what you love. Honestly I find even the most miserable SOB's respond to hard work vs. time spent with said person, some people really put you through it to earn their respect.

And if anyone threw a tantrum like that or "taught" like that or tried to put you through that so you could "earn their respect" in ANY other field in the whole wide world, they would have been sued, jailed for assault, and fired.

Honestly, I think all the excuses people make (oh they work such long hours, oh it's an important and stressful job) are all BS. I've seen people coming off of working two or three days straight and still manage to not snap off the handle or throttle the person next to them.
 
I wanted to ask a question to the surgery residents/attendings that frequent these boards, but I didn't want to make a new thread about it, so I thought I'd just stick it in here...

How do you know if you can honestly become a surgeon? Is it just a leap of faith, knowing that you can do whatever you put your mind to, and saying, "I'm doing it."? I'm confident that I can do anything after a few years of intense training, but I suppose I could be wrong...If I were to become a surgeon, I don't want to be a hacker.

It seems like when I get the opportunity to do something in the OR, I end up feeling like a complete *****. I follow exactly what the attending says to do, word for word, but something ends up getting screwed up. I do not think that these mistakes are typically my fault, but since "it" rolls down hill, I end up being blamed for it. I've brought it up to some of the residents, and they've told me to not worry about it because the same thing happens to them. Is this just part of the culture of surgery? If so, it's a LAME culture.

Thanks in advance.
 
I wanted to ask a question to the surgery residents/attendings that frequent these boards, but I didn't want to make a new thread about it, so I thought I'd just stick it in here...

How do you know if you can honestly become a surgeon? Is it just a leap of faith, knowing that you can do whatever you put your mind to, and saying, "I'm doing it."? I'm confident that I can do anything after a few years of intense training, but I suppose I could be wrong...If I were to become a surgeon, I don't want to be a hacker.

In medical school my plan was to do an internal medicine specialty or maybe FM. I had never thought about surgery and as a matter of fact, thought I wasn't confident enough to be a surgeon.

At the end of the day, its not a leap of faith to say, "with enough training and a modicum of talent, I can do whatever I set my mind to". We all do that with EVERYTHING we attempt. Once you realize that most surgeons have average skills which have been honed with thousands of hours of practice, you realize that most people could do it. However, you do have to be confident - even if you aren't sure, you must project an air of confident otherwise patients will lose faith in you. That is not to advocate doing something you aren't qualified to do, but some of the worst surgeons I've seen are those who are visibly nervous or anxious and transmit that to their patients (and everyone around them).

It seems like when I get the opportunity to do something in the OR, I end up feeling like a complete *****. I follow exactly what the attending says to do, word for word, but something ends up getting screwed up. I do not think that these mistakes are typically my fault, but since "it" rolls down hill, I end up being blamed for it. I've brought it up to some of the residents, and they've told me to not worry about it because the same thing happens to them. Is this just part of the culture of surgery? If so, it's a LAME culture.

Thanks in advance.

Not to defend your experience but that happens in every field and every profession. You don't think that if something goes wrong in a legal case that the paralegal doesn't get blamed? Or that my front office doesn't get **** on by patients who would never dream of treating me that way? **** rolls downhill - whether in the OR, in the small business office, etc. Its human nature.
 
It seems to be a universal issue. The head of the department of surgery in my school once said public health physicians don't deserve to be called doctors. He also said the Ob/Gyn guys don't deserve to be called surgeons because they operate on only 1% of the human body.
I don't know whether the surgery specialty starts off a personality change or those who go into surgery residency had those traits in them all along.

I don't think most surgeons are like that. The ones who are probably just have some insecurities. That's why they're bullies.
 
I loved surgery for about two weeks, now, after having spent six weeks in surgery, I've grown to hate it. My experience with surgery has been awful due to the very malignant culture that is fostered at my site.

I've found my experience to be utterly frustrating due to the following (there are more reasons, but I've only listed a few...):

1- the residents are plain nasty. I understand that they are overworked and tired, but that does not excuse them from being chronically nasty. I've also found it quite interesting that the surgery interns are extremely nice to the P.A. students, yet horribly nasty to the med students. It seems that surgery residents have forgotten what it's like to be a med student- meaning, that the first two years of med school focuses on the science behind medicine and NOT the clinical aspects. I have a sneaking suspicion that the residents at my site are overwhelmingly nice to the P.A. students due the fact that these students have the upper-hand when it comes to clinical stuff (writing soap notes, knowing how to perform procedures, etc...).

2- the residents just don't want to teach. I was yelled at by my chief resident last night when I asked him to show me how to inject contrast into an NG tube. He looked at me like I was ******ed when I asked him to show me and he further went on to tell me it was common sense. 🙄 I had now idea what a f'n piston tube was last night also, so this wasn't exactly common sense to me 🙄 Also, surgery is my first clerkship. I had no idea how to write a soap note, and it took 3 weeks for one of the residents to actually teach me how to write one. I was labeled a 'disorganized' student since I was unable to write a coherent soap note for the first three weeks.

3- The residents expect us to read their minds. If we don't, we are yelled at accordingly. Oh, and getting yelled at is something that I endure all day and from varying sources: attendings, residents, scrub nurses, cafeteria workers (just kidding here, but you get the picture). By the way, most students at my site have similar complaints of getting yelled at by just about everybody they encounter.

4- When the residents are not yelling at us, they go out of their way to make sure that it is known to us that we are 'bastard children' who exist to simply annoy them. Most current example I can give on this would be the following: at this past week's morbidity and mortality session, my friend was holding a seat for me while I got coffee before the session started. An intern came by and wanted to sit in this seat (mind you that the room was full of empty seats). My friend told him that I was sitting there (and my book was on the seat), he proceeded to tell her that he 'was pulling rank' and then proceeded to sit on her hand. 🙄 Another example of this would be breakfast time. The residents have us follow them in the morning to the cafeteria, and we are not allowed to sit with them. We are to sit at the side tables (this seating arrangement reminds me of the kiddie tables that I sat at when attending family dinners), if one of the students dares to sit at the big people's table, they are told to move by a resident if one happens to come in late to breakfast.

5- Retracting and cutting stitches for 8 hours straight is fine with me, as long as the resident doesn't mind explaining a few things to me after the surgery. Unfortunately, more often that not, the resident doesn't want to teach (see 2), and the attending pretends that the students aren't there (except when you don't read their mind correctly when it comes to stuff like knowing the exact way a particular attending likes his sutures cut- making this dire mistake will lead to recognition in the form of yelling more often than not).

I absolutely detest surgery at the moment. I'm sick of the malignant personalities, the daily beratings, and the overall attitude that surgeons are smarter than everyone on the planet (which is rampant where I am, and I know this since I hear on a daily basis how much smarter the surgeons are compared to everyone else in the hospital). What gets me most though is the lack of teaching. I don't mind having my ass scutted out all day long, as long as I received some form of teaching in return.

Oh well, I've got two more weeks to go 😎

You honestly see your residents and surgeons eat? It's so rare to see the surgeons and residents where I work eat more than a Powerbar and run through the halls with a cup of coffee. Let alone sit down and enjoy breakfast.
 
But I would say I wouldn't let the people you meet sway you too far in either direction do what you love. Honestly I find even the most miserable SOB's respond to hard work vs. time spent with said person, some people really put you through it to earn their respect.

really have to agree with you on many parts. when i was a medical student i experienced some of the nastiest personalities on surgery/ob/gyn clerkships but i really enjoyed the work itself and decided that i would stay true to myself and do what i would eventually enjoy doing...

a few tips for the current medical students

1. things have changed in the last 10 years. the importance of professionalism is sweeping through the country and many previous described bad apples have lost their jobs over the lack of professionalism. residents are getting more time off and are less stressed out and more human now...

2. the mentality that surgery is a fraternity still lingers but more females are welcomed to the "fraternity". it may be difficult to feel like you belong, especially at the beginning but do show interest and work hard and you'll be rewarded.

3. stay true to your own value and don't let a few bad personalities affect a life-time decision. i'd much rather work in a field that i love (surgery) with a few bad personalities than in a field that i would hate (ER) with good personalities...
 
really have to agree with you on many parts. when i was a medical student i experienced some of the nastiest personalities on surgery/ob/gyn clerkships but i really enjoyed the work itself and decided that i would stay true to myself and do what i would eventually enjoy doing...
i'd much rather work in a field that i love (surgery) with a few bad personalities than in a field that i would hate (ER) with good personalities...

Thanks for stopping by...TWICE in 7 years! :laugh:
 
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