Surgical Specialties

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How does getting into a surgical specialty work? From medical school you try to match to a surgery internship and do 5 years of residency. After that do you have to apply again to get into a specialty? If so what criteria do they use to compare applicants (grades, test scores ect.?).
 
How does getting into a surgical specialty work? From medical school you try to match to a surgery internship and do 5 years of residency. After that do you have to apply again to get into a specialty? If so what criteria do they use to compare applicants (grades, test scores ect.?).

After medical school you apply for residency. For surgery, there are general surgery, neurosurgery, orthopaedic surgery, otolaryngology, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, cardiothoracic surgery and urology residencies. After completion of any of those residencies, you will be qualified to sit to be board certified in that specialty. There are fellowships that follow all of those residencies as well. Those fellowships allow for three things. #1 alternative pathways to the same boards, ie. after completing general surgery, one can do a 2 year vascular fellowship and the board into vascular surgery. #2 sub-specialization such as endovascular for neurosurgery, or spine for ortho, etc. #3 Some surgical sub-specialties are only accessible via a general surgery residency. For example, pediatric surgery, surgical oncology, minimally invasive surgery, colorectal surgery, etc. can only be done after completing the standard 5 years of general surgery.

For residency applications, most program consider the following in rough order:
1) Step 1 score
2) Clinical grades
3) LOR from physicians within the field
4) Research

Obviously other factors such as AOA, school you attend, and any number of other little things come into play as well. Also, unlike medical school classes, residencies, especially surgical sub-specialties only take a handful of people every year. For example, in vascular surgery, we only take 1-2 residents per year. We care about fit, a lot. While you need certain scores to get an interview invite, residents will be with us for 5-7 years.
 
After medical school you apply for residency. For surgery, there are general surgery, neurosurgery, orthopaedic surgery, otolaryngology, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, cardiothoracic surgery and urology residencies. After completion of any of those residencies, you will be qualified to sit to be board certified in that specialty. There are fellowships that follow all of those residencies as well. Those fellowships allow for three things. #1 alternative pathways to the same boards, ie. after completing general surgery, one can do a 2 year vascular fellowship and the board into vascular surgery. #2 sub-specialization such as endovascular for neurosurgery, or spine for ortho, etc. #3 Some surgical sub-specialties are only accessible via a general surgery residency. For example, pediatric surgery, surgical oncology, minimally invasive surgery, colorectal surgery, etc. can only be done after completing the standard 5 years of general surgery.

For residency applications, most program consider the following in rough order:
1) Step 1 score
2) Clinical grades
3) LOR from physicians within the field
4) Research

Obviously other factors such as AOA, school you attend, and any number of other little things come into play as well. Also, unlike medical school classes, residencies, especially surgical sub-specialties only take a handful of people every year. For example, in vascular surgery, we only take 1-2 residents per year. We care about fit, a lot. While you need certain scores to get an interview invite, residents will be with us for 5-7 years.
Oh wow awesome. I had no idea this was how it worked. Thanks!
 
It's really interesting how some surgeons get into their specialties. At a local hospital, the trauma surgeon is also a neurosurgeon
 
It's really interesting how some surgeons get into their specialties. At a local hospital, the trauma surgeon is also a neurosurgeon
😱 How did he go about doing that?
 
😱 How did he go about doing that?

Not sure, it may have been bad info and that he just responds to the traumas, but he did surgery on my dad's back

The other docs there I can find online are a vascular surgeon who is also a trauma surgeon, and a trauma surgeon who does mostly neurotrauma
 
Not sure, it may have been bad info and that he just responds to the traumas, but he did surgery on my dad's back

He is likely just a neurosurgeon who, when on call, covers the ER like most on call services and performs trauma neurosurgery when appropriate.
 
He is likely just a neurosurgeon who, when on call, covers the ER like most on call services and performs trauma neurosurgery when appropriate.

You are probably right, I just think it's awesome how specialized one can be yet do somewhat different things as well
 
After medical school you apply for residency. For surgery, there are general surgery, neurosurgery, orthopaedic surgery, otolaryngology, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, cardiothoracic surgery and urology residencies. After completion of any of those residencies, you will be qualified to sit to be board certified in that specialty. There are fellowships that follow all of those residencies as well. Those fellowships allow for three things. #1 alternative pathways to the same boards, ie. after completing general surgery, one can do a 2 year vascular fellowship and the board into vascular surgery. #2 sub-specialization such as endovascular for neurosurgery, or spine for ortho, etc. #3 Some surgical sub-specialties are only accessible via a general surgery residency. For example, pediatric surgery, surgical oncology, minimally invasive surgery, colorectal surgery, etc. can only be done after completing the standard 5 years of general surgery.

For residency applications, most program consider the following in rough order:
1) Step 1 score
2) Clinical grades
3) LOR from physicians within the field
4) Research

Obviously other factors such as AOA, school you attend, and any number of other little things come into play as well. Also, unlike medical school classes, residencies, especially surgical sub-specialties only take a handful of people every year. For example, in vascular surgery, we only take 1-2 residents per year. We care about fit, a lot. While you need certain scores to get an interview invite, residents will be with us for 5-7 years.

Great post!

Can I follow up by asking what exactly preliminary surgery spots are? They seem to be 1 year, but what is the purpose? I know with prelimiary medicine its for the residencies that start PGY2, is this the same in surgery? Do you do one year as an intern in preliminary surgery and then move to another program to finish general, ENT, etc.?
 
Great post!

Can I follow up by asking what exactly preliminary surgery spots are? They seem to be 1 year, but what is the purpose? I know with prelimiary medicine its for the residencies that start PGY2, is this the same in surgery? Do you do one year as an intern in preliminary surgery and then move to another program to finish general, ENT, etc.?

Preliminary residency positions are one year contracts in either surgery or medicine. There is zero guarantee of employment after that one year. You are correct that as many specialties actually start at the PGY-2 level, a single Prelim year or transitional year is required prior to starting the standard residency. However, many preliminary surgery residents do NOT have a PGY-2 position lined up already and will need to try to match the following year for a second PGY-1 spot, or in some cases a PGY-2 spot. These are tough situations to be in and it is considered a pretty big failure if an american medical grad ends up in a prelim position with no PGY-2 match.

Preliminary residents are treated as cheap labor by hospitals across the country and very little investment is made in them on average by residency programs.
 
Preliminary residency positions are one year contracts in either surgery or medicine. There is zero guarantee of employment after that one year. You are correct that as many specialties actually start at the PGY-2 level, a single Prelim year or transitional year is required prior to starting the standard residency. However, many preliminary surgery residents do NOT have a PGY-2 position lined up already and will need to try to match the following year for a second PGY-1 spot, or in some cases a PGY-2 spot. These are tough situations to be in and it is considered a pretty big failure if an american medical grad ends up in a prelim position with no PGY-2 match.

Preliminary residents are treated as cheap labor by hospitals across the country and very little investment is made in them on average by residency programs.

Thanks so much!

Out of the surgical residencies, what specialties require a preliminary surgery PGY1 and which ones start immediately during PGY1 (I believe these are called categorical residencies)?
 
Thanks so much!

Out of the surgical residencies, what specialties require a preliminary surgery PGY1 and which ones start immediately during PGY1 (I believe these are called categorical residencies)?

Not my area of expertise, but as a rough list:

Radiology
Neurology
Anesthesiology
Ophthalmology
Radiation Oncology
Dermatology
Urology
 
Not my area of expertise, but as a rough list:

Radiology
Neurology
Anesthesiology
Ophthalmology
Radiation Oncology
Dermatology
Urology

Thanks! That's interesting to see that Urology seems to be one of the few surgical specialties that requires a Prelim.
 
Not my area of expertise, but as a rough list:

Radiology
Neurology
Anesthesiology
Ophthalmology
Radiation Oncology
Dermatology
Urology
can you apply for the prelim and pgy2 in the same cycle? so you can have your prelim and pgy2 set to go for after you finish prelim?
 
Preliminary residency positions are one year contracts in either surgery or medicine. There is zero guarantee of employment after that one year. You are correct that as many specialties actually start at the PGY-2 level, a single Prelim year or transitional year is required prior to starting the standard residency. However, many preliminary surgery residents do NOT have a PGY-2 position lined up already and will need to try to match the following year for a second PGY-1 spot, or in some cases a PGY-2 spot. These are tough situations to be in and it is considered a pretty big failure if an american medical grad ends up in a prelim position with no PGY-2 match.

Preliminary residents are treated as cheap labor by hospitals across the country and very little investment is made in them on average by residency programs.

I'm interested by this. Is there a way to look at a match list and tell which prelim spots are simply prelims with no PGY2 position lined up? or can you typically not tell?
 
Can't speak for all match lists, but on many of the ones I have seen, those with a PGY2 position lined up are listed under the PGY2 specialty (ie: Neurology), and state both where the preliminary year will be and the PGY2 year will be. Those without a PGY2 position lined up will be listed under Preliminary - Surgery or Preliminary - Medicine.
 
Thanks so much!

Out of the surgical residencies, what specialties require a preliminary surgery PGY1 and which ones start immediately during PGY1 (I believe these are called categorical residencies)?

This topic gets confusing, as there is a lot of overlap and intermingling of terms.

Traditionally speaking, there are two types of preliminary years: designated and non-designated.

Designated:
A designated intern year was attached to a categorical subspecialty residency (i.e. You spend your prelim year in general surgery and then do the rest of your years in urology, ENT). Basically the subspecialists farmed out intern year to the general surgeons to teach the basics of floor management, OR skills, etc.

However this term has largely faded away because these departments have started taking more ownership over the intern year. For example ortho programs now commonly only have their interns do 2-3 months on general surgery.

With designated prelim years, this is still not something you apply for separately. It is just a distinction between your intern year (when you are "owned" by general surgery) and the rest of your residency. For example, our ENT interns get ID badges that say general surgery on them when they are interns, because they are technically part of our department that year.

Non-designated:
These are one year positions without any guarantee or expectation of advancement. They exist as a historic remnant of the days that surgery residencies were pyramidal (i.e. they hired more interns than they expected to graduate and weeded out the good from the bad over time).

Two types of people take these non-designated prelim spots: the aforementioned people going into advanced programs like radiology or anesthesia; and people who have no other choices in the match/SOAP and are hoping to use these as a stepping stone to another residency the following year.
 
What is the overall current demand/need for surgeons in the US relative to other specialities, and/or is this more of a regional issues with areas of saturation and areas underserved?
 
What is the overall current demand/need for surgeons in the US relative to other specialities, and/or is this more of a regional issues with areas of saturation and areas underserved?

Depends on the sub-specialty and desired practice type. I'll use my field as an example because I know it best. For vascular surgery...

There are ~6-7 jobs available per graduating vascular resident/fellow right now. If you graduate saying, "I want to practice some sort of vascular surgery." You will be able to find a job in most cities over 100k people and possibly a job in many cities smaller than that. In addition, if you are a fellow and boarded in general surgery as well as vascular, there are thousands of small towns/cities looking for general surgeons who will also do vascular surgery. On the other hand, if you are a resident graduating from a program and want to focus on aortic disease, your options are far more limited. You are stuck in big (500k+) cities and only at a select number of institutions. Overall for vascular, our two biggest risk factors are aging and smokers. Looking at the US population, it is obvious that this 'need' is going to continue to grow for some time. There is no shortage of private groups that are in the community trying to take care of that growing population. My guess is that the same can be said for any surgeon that takes care of the 'bread and butter'.

There are definitely localized saturation issues within the sub-specialties, just by virtue of not needing that many surgeons to handle problems that aren't very common. The more willing you are to do the bread and butter, the more likely you are to find a job in the area that you want to practice. I think that it is hard to compare to other specialties because of that intra-specialty variability. The biggest problem that current graduates have is that they often feel that they "deserve" the job that they want because they have been slaving away for a decade, are now in their 30s and feel entitled to the job that they want. When they graduate, they realize very quickly that despite that sacrifice, the job market doesn't work like that. While their skills in bread and butter may be highly in demand, if there isn't a need for their super-specialized practice, jobs won't be available.
 
Thanks! That's interesting to see that Urology seems to be one of the few surgical specialties that requires a Prelim.
IIRC, I think uro matches in a way that your prelim is at the same place your residency will be, so prelim but also kinda different
 
Depends on the sub-specialty and desired practice type. I'll use my field as an example because I know it best. For vascular surgery...

There are ~6-7 jobs available per graduating vascular resident/fellow right now. If you graduate saying, "I want to practice some sort of vascular surgery." You will be able to find a job in most cities over 100k people and possibly a job in many cities smaller than that. In addition, if you are a fellow and boarded in general surgery as well as vascular, there are thousands of small towns/cities looking for general surgeons who will also do vascular surgery. On the other hand, if you are a resident graduating from a program and want to focus on aortic disease, your options are far more limited. You are stuck in big (500k+) cities and only at a select number of institutions. Overall for vascular, our two biggest risk factors are aging and smokers. Looking at the US population, it is obvious that this 'need' is going to continue to grow for some time. There is no shortage of private groups that are in the community trying to take care of that growing population. My guess is that the same can be said for any surgeon that takes care of the 'bread and butter'.

There are definitely localized saturation issues within the sub-specialties, just by virtue of not needing that many surgeons to handle problems that aren't very common. The more willing you are to do the bread and butter, the more likely you are to find a job in the area that you want to practice. I think that it is hard to compare to other specialties because of that intra-specialty variability. The biggest problem that current graduates have is that they often feel that they "deserve" the job that they want because they have been slaving away for a decade, are now in their 30s and feel entitled to the job that they want. When they graduate, they realize very quickly that despite that sacrifice, the job market doesn't work like that. While their skills in bread and butter may be highly in demand, if there isn't a need for their super-specialized practice, jobs won't be available.

Excellent. Thank you.

So are you saying that each graduating resident/fellow in vascular has 6-7 options/potential offers? Do you mean just in your program or nationwide? How many graduating vascular residents/fellows are there nationwide? Sounds like there are more options for those willing to do gen surg plus vascular when needed, and that those wanting to focus more on very specialized procedures need a major academic center and/or major city. Is that right? I assume you can't have a practice anywhere that is limited to one procedure, like septal myectomies, is that right? While those needing a septal myectomy are best served by focusing on just a select few centers like Toronto, Cleveland Clinic, etc. I'm curious about the latter since I had one performed in Boston.
 
This topic gets confusing, as there is a lot of overlap and intermingling of terms
...
Two types of people take these non-designated prelim spots: the aforementioned people going into advanced programs like radiology or anesthesia; and people who have no other choices in the match/SOAP and are hoping to use these as a stepping stone to another residency the following year.
Disagree with your use of the terminology. Actually those with ANY advanced position (neuro, rads, gas, Derm etc) are termed designated. Designated just means you already have something lined up afterwards. It's important to the prelim programs because they don't have to let you go interview or help with placement and let's them not be known as "dead end".
 
Excellent. Thank you.

So are you saying that each graduating resident/fellow in vascular has 6-7 options/potential offers? Do you mean just in your program or nationwide? How many graduating vascular residents/fellows are there nationwide? Sounds like there are more options for those willing to do gen surg plus vascular when needed, and that those wanting to focus more on very specialized procedures need a major academic center and/or major city. Is that right? I assume you can't have a practice anywhere that is limited to one procedure, like septal myectomies, is that right? While those needing a septal myectomy are best served by focusing on just a select few centers like Toronto, Cleveland Clinic, etc. I'm curious about the latter since I had one performed in Boston.

There are ~100 new vascular surgeons being produced each year, with the new integrated vascular residencies really taking off, that number will likely grow to ~120-140 within the next 3 years. There are currently across the country 600-700 jobs available. The reason for the range is because the vast majority of these jobs are not listed anywhere. Some groups, both academic and private are waiting for the right person to come along looking for a job. At the same time, there are some places that just need a warm body because there is a dire need, and nobody wants to go where there is that need. They offer excessive (500k) and perks just because having a vascular surgeon available will generate a lot more in revenue, or they stand to lose revenue (loss of services provided, less governmental support or other funding sources). The number of offers depends on who you are, how hard you look for a job and how picky you are. Who you know in this business is very important. There are only ~2300 vascular surgeons in the US, who trains you and who can vouch for you means everything for your first job. When I go to a conference, my chairman and my division chief are always introducing me and other of our residents to other faculty or their former fellows, mainly because they are the people that may end up hiring us several years from now.

The raw number of options is higher for people who have done general surgery and then vascular fellowship. But, the cost is 2 years and most would now consider less training. An integrated resident clearly will have less open experience, especially in the abdomen, but will have a year+ more vascular training in much higher yield areas. The reality also is that the majority of people going into vascular have no interest in doing general surgery when you finish. Again, it goes back to people feeling like they "deserve" to do what they want. Well, most people feel after 5-7 years of residency, they should be able to only practice vascular and not be forced to do general surgery. For me personally, I did 2 years of research during my residency, so my total training time will be the same as doing GS residency, followed by vascular fellowship. But, the big difference is that I will have spent 7 years in a vascular training program, 5.5 years of which is focused vascular training/exposure. Compare that to your typical 2 year vascular fellow, who do you think is more desirable for that first job? I have also spent the last 2 years going to virtually every local, regional and national conference. While I still have 2 years before I start asking people about jobs, I feel like I have a huge edge because I pretty much know my top 10 choices and more importantly, they know who I am already.

As a first year attending, you can not have a practice that is limited to only a handful of procedures. Even at super specialized institutions, unless what you want to do is what nobody else wants to do (ie. dialysis access), you will have to have a somewhat general practice and help fill the gaps of that group. Hopefully you can find a group that needs someone to do what you are interested in, but you have to find a way to build that practice from the ground up. If someone is interested in one particular pathology or procedure, they generally will join a practice already doing it, go there, fill in the gaps and learn from the senior partners. Then they will either inherit the practice as the senior guys slow down, or get recruited by another institution to start their own program doing that set of procedures. While there are a handful of institutions out there that do truly crazy/new things. You would be surprised at the number of hospitals take care of difficult pathologies. It isn't just the Mayo, Cleveland Clinics etc.
 
I didn't make up the terms.

Designated refers to prelim years that are directly linked to an advanced residency - ie you apply to them both in the same match at the same program
I didn't make up the terms either. Programs use the term the way I am describing as well.
 
There are ~100 new vascular surgeons being produced each year, with the new integrated vascular residencies really taking off, that number will likely grow to ~120-140 within the next 3 years. There are currently across the country 600-700 jobs available. The reason for the range is because the vast majority of these jobs are not listed anywhere. Some groups, both academic and private are waiting for the right person to come along looking for a job. At the same time, there are some places that just need a warm body because there is a dire need, and nobody wants to go where there is that need. They offer excessive (500k) and perks just because having a vascular surgeon available will generate a lot more in revenue, or they stand to lose revenue (loss of services provided, less governmental support or other funding sources). The number of offers depends on who you are, how hard you look for a job and how picky you are. Who you know in this business is very important. There are only ~2300 vascular surgeons in the US, who trains you and who can vouch for you means everything for your first job. When I go to a conference, my chairman and my division chief are always introducing me and other of our residents to other faculty or their former fellows, mainly because they are the people that may end up hiring us several years from now.

The raw number of options is higher for people who have done general surgery and then vascular fellowship. But, the cost is 2 years and most would now consider less training. An integrated resident clearly will have less open experience, especially in the abdomen, but will have a year+ more vascular training in much higher yield areas. The reality also is that the majority of people going into vascular have no interest in doing general surgery when you finish. Again, it goes back to people feeling like they "deserve" to do what they want. Well, most people feel after 5-7 years of residency, they should be able to only practice vascular and not be forced to do general surgery. For me personally, I did 2 years of research during my residency, so my total training time will be the same as doing GS residency, followed by vascular fellowship. But, the big difference is that I will have spent 7 years in a vascular training program, 5.5 years of which is focused vascular training/exposure. Compare that to your typical 2 year vascular fellow, who do you think is more desirable for that first job? I have also spent the last 2 years going to virtually every local, regional and national conference. While I still have 2 years before I start asking people about jobs, I feel like I have a huge edge because I pretty much know my top 10 choices and more importantly, they know who I am already.

As a first year attending, you can not have a practice that is limited to only a handful of procedures. Even at super specialized institutions, unless what you want to do is what nobody else wants to do (ie. dialysis access), you will have to have a somewhat general practice and help fill the gaps of that group. Hopefully you can find a group that needs someone to do what you are interested in, but you have to find a way to build that practice from the ground up. If someone is interested in one particular pathology or procedure, they generally will join a practice already doing it, go there, fill in the gaps and learn from the senior partners. Then they will either inherit the practice as the senior guys slow down, or get recruited by another institution to start their own program doing that set of procedures. While there are a handful of institutions out there that do truly crazy/new things. You would be surprised at the number of hospitals take care of difficult pathologies. It isn't just the Mayo, Cleveland Clinics etc.

Thanks again. Great stuff.

1) re: your comment about number of hospitals doing difficult and or more rare procedures....I know a fair number of places may perform these procedures but my understanding is that a handful of centers across the country may be known for handling a (relatively speaking) high volume of such cases. To take septal myectomies as one example, let's say that less than 250 are performed per year across the country. Let's say Cleveland Clinic, Toronto, and Mayo or Minnesota Heart Institute all do 40-50 a year while places like BWH do 10 or less per year. The general inclination as a consumer might be to push for a more high volume center. Indeed, my own cardiologists at BWH considered pushing me to one of the above over BWH although I stuck with BWH in the end and had an excellent result.

2) You mentioned in a post further above that your program takes 1-2 residents per year and sometimes none because "fit" is considered so important. What are the qualities you all are looking for in regard to "fit"? What ultimately about a candidate for your residency wins you over?
 
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Thanks again. Great stuff.

1) re: your comment about number of hospitals doing difficult and or more rare procedures....I know a fair number of places may perform these procedures but my understanding is that a handful of centers across the country may be known for handling a (relatively speaking) high volume of such cases. To take septal myectomies as one example, let's say that less than 250 are performed per year across the country. Let's say Cleveland Clinic, Toronto, and Mayo or Minnesota Heart Institute all do 40-50 a year while places like BWH do 10 or less per year. The general inclination as a consumer might be to push for a more high volume center. Indeed, my own cardiologists at BWH considered pushing me to one of the above over BWH although I stuck with BWH in the end and had an excellent result.

2) You mentioned in a post further above that your program takes 1-2 residents per year and sometimes none because "fit" is considered so important. What are the qualities you all are looking for in regard to "fit"? What ultimately about a candidate for your residency wins you over?

I must have misspoke. We always take 2 per year. Residencies in my field either have 1 or 2 spots available per year. We have ~200 applicants for our 2 spots, we can always find a fair few that we like and think will fit us and we rank them accordingly.

Fit is incredibly important for residency because of how much time you spend with each other. We are talking a minimum of 5 years of ~80 hours/week of time with someone. It is very important that the person gets along with all of the faculty and current residents. It can be disasterous if you end up with an intern with serious entitlement issues, problems with work ethic, or simply is a jerk.

When it comes to looking for a future colleague, you want someone that is reliable. Who isn't afraid to push themselves and be independent, but knows how to ask for help when they really need it. You want someone who you don't mind spending 16 hours a day with, every day for months on end. You don't have to like every aspect of them or have tons of overlapping interests or anything like that. But, you really want to ID the guys interviewing with potential personality issues. It is why when you interview with us, you have 5-8 one on one interviews and spend hours with our residents both at dinner informally and between interviews.

As an aside, an MS4 from SDN started PMing me about vascular residencies last year. We chatted a bunch through SDN and finally met him when he came to interview with us. He is one of our two incoming interns for next year. The other intern did an away rotation with us. They both blew our faculty away, but it is important to point out: we like known quantities, just like everyone else.
 
I must have misspoke. We always take 2 per year. Residencies in my field either have 1 or 2 spots available per year. We have ~200 applicants for our 2 spots, we can always find a fair few that we like and think will fit us and we rank them accordingly.

Fit is incredibly important for residency because of how much time you spend with each other. We are talking a minimum of 5 years of ~80 hours/week of time with someone. It is very important that the person gets along with all of the faculty and current residents. It can be disasterous if you end up with an intern with serious entitlement issues, problems with work ethic, or simply is a jerk.

When it comes to looking for a future colleague, you want someone that is reliable. Who isn't afraid to push themselves and be independent, but knows how to ask for help when they really need it. You want someone who you don't mind spending 16 hours a day with, every day for months on end. You don't have to like every aspect of them or have tons of overlapping interests or anything like that. But, you really want to ID the guys interviewing with potential personality issues. It is why when you interview with us, you have 5-8 one on one interviews and spend hours with our residents both at dinner informally and between interviews.

As an aside, an MS4 from SDN started PMing me about vascular residencies last year. We chatted a bunch through SDN and finally met him when he came to interview with us. He is one of our two incoming interns for next year. The other intern did an away rotation with us. They both blew our faculty away, but it is important to point out: we like known quantities, just like everyone else.

Pretty much the same deal with ortho, plastics, ENT... I'd venture to say any surgical subspecialty. The applicant pool is small enough and the faculty mentors all know one another... Programs like people who they've either worked with before or come with highly regarded recommendations... I think there have been studies in our literature that say LORs outrank or are very close to scores/grades in importance during the ranking process.
 
I must have misspoke. We always take 2 per year. Residencies in my field either have 1 or 2 spots available per year. We have ~200 applicants for our 2 spots, we can always find a fair few that we like and think will fit us and we rank them accordingly.

Fit is incredibly important for residency because of how much time you spend with each other. We are talking a minimum of 5 years of ~80 hours/week of time with someone. It is very important that the person gets along with all of the faculty and current residents. It can be disasterous if you end up with an intern with serious entitlement issues, problems with work ethic, or simply is a jerk.

When it comes to looking for a future colleague, you want someone that is reliable. Who isn't afraid to push themselves and be independent, but knows how to ask for help when they really need it. You want someone who you don't mind spending 16 hours a day with, every day for months on end. You don't have to like every aspect of them or have tons of overlapping interests or anything like that. But, you really want to ID the guys interviewing with potential personality issues. It is why when you interview with us, you have 5-8 one on one interviews and spend hours with our residents both at dinner informally and between interviews.

As an aside, an MS4 from SDN started PMing me about vascular residencies last year. We chatted a bunch through SDN and finally met him when he came to interview with us. He is one of our two incoming interns for next year. The other intern did an away rotation with us. They both blew our faculty away, but it is important to point out: we like known quantities, just like everyone else.

Prepare to be inundated with PMs from every premed and his/her dog!

Sent from my C5306 using Tapatalk
 
I must have misspoke. We always take 2 per year. Residencies in my field either have 1 or 2 spots available per year. We have ~200 applicants for our 2 spots, we can always find a fair few that we like and think will fit us and we rank them accordingly.

Fit is incredibly important for residency because of how much time you spend with each other. We are talking a minimum of 5 years of ~80 hours/week of time with someone. It is very important that the person gets along with all of the faculty and current residents. It can be disasterous if you end up with an intern with serious entitlement issues, problems with work ethic, or simply is a jerk.

When it comes to looking for a future colleague, you want someone that is reliable. Who isn't afraid to push themselves and be independent, but knows how to ask for help when they really need it. You want someone who you don't mind spending 16 hours a day with, every day for months on end. You don't have to like every aspect of them or have tons of overlapping interests or anything like that. But, you really want to ID the guys interviewing with potential personality issues. It is why when you interview with us, you have 5-8 one on one interviews and spend hours with our residents both at dinner informally and between interviews.

As an aside, an MS4 from SDN started PMing me about vascular residencies last year. We chatted a bunch through SDN and finally met him when he came to interview with us. He is one of our two incoming interns for next year. The other intern did an away rotation with us. They both blew our faculty away, but it is important to point out: we like known quantities, just like everyone else.

So what happens to the other 198? DO they generally match in vascular somewhere else, or do a good portion of them end up needing to pursue a different area?

Also, out of the ~200, how many of those would you say would be perfectly good fits?
 
Pretty much the same deal with ortho, plastics, ENT... I'd venture to say any surgical subspecialty. The applicant pool is small enough and the faculty mentors all know one another... Programs like people who they've either worked with before or come with highly regarded recommendations... I think there have been studies in our literature that say LORs outrank or are very close to scores/grades in importance during the ranking process.

So, along the way, are there mentors who tip off candidates that they have good chances or that they are "chosen ones," and do they also nudge the unwanted hopefuls in another direction?
 
So, along the way, are there mentors who tip off candidates that they have good chances or that they are "chosen ones," and do they also nudge the unwanted hopefuls in another direction?

Typically candidates declare their interests and find mentors in their field of interest -- often initially found through a research relationship. If the candidate really just isn't stellar or can't cut it with the rest of the competition, then it's often the school's job to try to dissuade them from a particular specialty .... simply because the school has an interest in not having their candidates go unmatched.

Tip offs that you suck?
Board scores* not around the average of successful matches in the field.
Attending/resident feedback that you are struggling to comprehend the material/attain adequate "fund of knowledge."
Feeling absolutely lost in a routine case.
Struggling to find a role on the team as a sub-intern/rotator.
 
So what happens to the other 198? DO they generally match in vascular somewhere else, or do a good portion of them end up needing to pursue a different area?

Also, out of the ~200, how many of those would you say would be perfectly good fits?

There are only ~50 integrated spots each year. I just finished putting together the post-mortem on our match. Of the ~40 that we interviewed, all but 6 matched into integrated programs, the rest ended up in general surgery programs. I assume that if an applicant applied both IVS and GS, they prefer IVS, but they could have easily ranked GS programs near the top of their list, above IVS programs (I certainly did). Of the others that didn't interview with us, a handful did match into IVS, but the lion's share ended up in GS or not matching. A good number of FMGs apply to IVS, in particular to our program. (Byproduct of city we are in, internationally oriented hospital etc) In our department alone, we have 4 FMGs doing research and looking for residency spots in IVS or GS.

I would say that there are always 10-15 very strong applicants who have both the numbers and nobody has any qualms about. Individuals may have their preferences, but I don't think anyone would be unhappy getting any of them. We have a particularly laid back department. Super busy, constant go go go, but the personalities are very chill. To be honest, I think that it can be a little unnerving to some people.

So, along the way, are there mentors who tip off candidates that they have good chances or that they are "chosen ones," and do they also nudge the unwanted hopefuls in another direction?

I agree with @caffeinemia. There are a lot of misguided pre-meds trying going into medical school. There are a lot of misguided medical students trying to go into specific specialties and are obviously poor fits. Sometimes it is because their parent is in the field, sometimes it is because of some isolated experience that they had, but there are just some people that you can tell will struggle, which nobody wants.
 
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