Taking Gen Chem and Orgo at Same Time??

[selfhealer]

hi all, just had a quick question.
I am a 30 year old pre med student. I received my undergrad degree in religion back in 2001. Im now taking classes at my local university in order to get my pre-reqs for med school taken care of. My goal is to apply for the fall of 2011, but in order to do this, I must take Gen chem I, Orgo I and PhysI this fall, and then Gen chem II, Orgo II and Phys II in the spring.
I initially did not think this was possible (I assumed that you needed the knowledge of Gen Chem in order to take Orgo successfully), however, in another thread in which i discussed my planned schedule, several members here suggested that I take Gen Chem and Orgo at the same time.

My question is, in general, will most colleges actually allow me to take Orgo without having yet completed Gen Chem (bear in mind Im not a matriculated student at this college, I am just taking classes). I must add that the university cites Gen Chem II as a pre-requisite for Orgo. Is this meant as a suggestion, or does citing Gen Chem as a pre-req for Orgo mean that the school will truly not allow me to sign up for Orgo without having completed Gen Chem.

Secondly, assuming the school allows me to take Orgo at the same time as Gen Chem, is this a bad idea?? As I said, I assumed that Orgo built heavily on the information learned in Gen Chem, however several members suggested that this is not the case. Will Orgo be much harder for me to grasp without prior chemistry classes?

Thats all for now. Thanks-SH

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[oaklandguy]

I honestly would not recommend taking General Chem and Organic Chem at the same time. There isn't a ton of material that you use from Gen Chem in Orgo; however, there are some basic principles of chemistry you are going to have to know to be able to survive in organic. Looking at your age I assume you are far removed from any general chemistry and Organic Chemistry requires you to have things like the periodic table be second nature. You also should have an understanding on electrons and their effect on a molecule. You want the chemical intuition you gain from General Chemistry when you take organic chemistry. Plus organic chemistry has a really really heavy workload, I would never recommend taking it with 2 other science classes. At my university General Chem II was pretty tough and Organic Chemistry II has been the hardest class I've taken so far.

As for your other question, I'm sure you can get an override from an advisor to let you take both Chemistry classes at the same time if you must. But I don't think they would let you sign up for the classes because one is a pre-requisite to the other.

And just remember that every student is different and we all learn differently, so maybe you can pick-up on organic very fast and maybe you can't. Just know that orgo is the weed-out class for pre-health students and requires about 2-3 hours of studying a night. (Again depending on what type of student you are, but I think you catch my drift). Good luck with what you do either way.

 

[oaklandguy]

If you still want to be able to finish in time for 2011 you can Take Gen Chem I and II, fall and winter and take Orgo I in the summer. My school actually has 8 week accelerated courses in the summer, so I took Orgo I and Orgo II in the summer; however, I'm not sure if other universities do the same thing. But If I was in your situation I would take Physics and General Chem for fall and winter, and Orgo in the summer and fall. You also have to take biology and are recommended to take biochemistry, physiology, and genetics. (These courses help with the MCAT and are required by some med schools). However, I do think your chances at being able to apply next year are bleak. It takes almost everyone at least 2 years to complete the pre-reqs.

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

Hmm. I think this is in the wrong forum.... Nevertheless.

I do not think it is wise to take orgo and gen chem at the same time since many of the periodic trends fundamental to organic are learned in gen chem. I know many people will say organic is all memorization, but I beg to differ. While there are many things you do have to memorize in organic, it is only through knowledge of basic chemistry principles that a person succeeds in this class. Also since you do not have any chemistry background and it's been a while since high school, it would be wise to take them separately.

The question of whether or not you can simultaneously take the two classes without having taken tgen chem previously depends on the university, I'm sure. Some departments are relaxed and will allow it, while others are very strict. I imagine it depends on the individual professor as well.

Don't you also have bio prereqs-One year of lower division and at least one semester of upper? You'd end up having to wait anyway. I would just take the traditional approach. You've waited this far right? Spend the next four semesters on EC and shadowing, etc. I have a friend who just started dental school at 37.

Good luck.

 

[selfhealer]

If you still want to be able to finish in time for 2011 you can Take Gen Chem I and II, fall and winter and take Orgo I in the summer. My school actually has 8 week accelerated courses in the summer, so I took Orgo I and Orgo II in the summer; however, I'm not sure if other universities do the same thing. But If I was in your situation I would take Physics and General Chem for fall and winter, and Orgo in the summer and fall. You also have to take biology and are recommended to take biochemistry, physiology, and genetics. (These courses help with the MCAT and are required by some med schools). However, I do think your chances at being able to apply next year are bleak. It takes almost everyone at least 2 years to complete the pre-reqs.

That was my original plan (take gen chem I and Phys I in fall, Gen chem II and Phys II in spring, and Orgo I and II in summer, Ive already taken Bio I and II). However, the problem with this plan as I have been advised by many here, is that if I take Orgo next summer, that means I wont be done with it until sometime in July. I then will need at least a month or 2 in order to prepare for MCATS, which means I wont take the Mcats until early fall and thus will not be able to get my completed apps out until October at the earliest. Nearly everyone here has stated that if I dont get my apps out until next October, my chances of being accepted for the following fall become very very slim.

If I can somehow take all 3 remaining courses in fall and spring, I will be done with pre-reqs in May sometime. I can then study my ass for Mcats and take them sometime in late June or early July and thus get my apps out sometime in July.

Obviously I am aware that it does me no good to cram all my pre-reqs in this coming year if it means I will only get B's or potentially worse in the courses. Its clear that it would be much better to take an extra year and get A's, then it would to cram them in and get B's. This is the very reason though, that I am posting this thread. Im trying to figure out if it is really unreasonable to expect that I can get A's in Orgo (as well as the others) if I am taking Gen Chem concurrently. It goes without saying that it will require a great amount of work and commitment, but what I am concerned about is if even assuming a great amount of work and dedication, is an A in Orgo very unlikely due to my failure to take Gen Chem prior to Orgo.

Im a bit confused because I have gotten very mixed responses on this subject. Several people have strongly stated that Orgo is its own separate entity and that not having completed Gen Chem prior, would not adversely effect my ability to succeed in Orgo. However you, and several others have said the exact opposite-that succeeding in Orgo without prior Gen Chem would be a monumental task.

So basically-Im up for a challenge and hard work, but only if its truly realistic and doable. What do you think?

 

[selfhealer]

Phosphorus-
Thank you for the advice. I failed to mention that I took Bio I and II this summer and thankfully got A's. Had I not taken Bio, you would be correct that I would need to wait another year which would make cramming Orgo in, pointless.

Believe me, I understand the wisdom of being patient and allowing myself the extra year to complete the pre-reqs. Your advice to wait an extra year is no doubt sound advice. Do you sense a "but" coming???

All I can really say is that for better or worse, the truth is that my patience is unfortunately, not infinite. I need to be honest with myself, and the truth is that the long road ahead of me already seems like it will never end. I am 30 years old (I know that is by no means old), however the absolute fact that I will not even begin my residency until 36 or 37 (and thats if all goes according to plan) would be enough to have me turn and run, if my passion for becoming a doctor were not so strong. I know my position is not unique, but truthfully, Im finding it nearly impossible to stay positive and optimistic, when my goal will not be realized for what seems like an eternity. Consequently, the thought of tacking on ANOTHER year to this process is agonizing to me. Again, I know that we all must deal with the seemingly endless road we have begun walking down.
I also know that many people will read this and (rightfully) suggest that if my patience is being tried already, and the thought of adding on another year is so heavy an issue, then perhaps I am not cut out for this line of work. There is certainly logic to that statement, but the fact remains that I cannot imagine myself NOT becoming a doctor.- SH

 

[oaklandguy]

I think you would have to be an unbelievably outstanding student to get an A in organic chemistry without having General Chemistry under your belt. In fact, it is very hard to receive an A in organic chemistry after taking General Chemistry, let alone without it. I don't know what type of student you are and I don't want to underestimate your capabilities at all, I just personally don't think that taking General Chemistry and Organic Chemistry at the same time is the most intelligent choice. To get to the top of the mountain you have to climb the base first, and then slowly move up.

As far as MCATS go, You can take the MCAT June/July of the summer you want to apply and be perfectly in time for it. You would be studying along with taking Organic, however studying for the MCAT while taking Organic is much more realistic than taking Gen Chem and Organic at the same time. If you do follow this path, you won't have completed Organic II by the time you take the MCAT, but you will have built a solid enough understanding in organic chemistry. From what I have heard, the MCAT mainly deals with first semester Organic anyways. But you can get a general idea of these things from the MCAT study material. I personally like your original plan best. Studying for the MCATS while taking Orgo in the summer will be soooo much easier and less stressful than taking Physics, Chem, and Orgo at the same time. As long as you can have the will-power to study solid amounts for the MCAT you will do fine. Either choice is going to require hard work and a lot of studying. And if you don't do well in the classes it won't matter how well your MCAT is. No matter what you do, you have to get the grades, and have fun doing it 🙂

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

Oakland- I like how both of our headlines deal with sleep deprivation. 😛

SH- I suppose there are plenty of other individuals who have done what you are contemplating doing. If you feel that you are up for the task and want to give it a shot, provided you have been given the go ahead by your professors, then at least know that many schools do have a drop deadline that may work in your favor. At my institution, you can still withdraw from courses without getting a W around the time of the first exam (I think about a month in). Even if your school has something a little different, a few weeks of simultaneous enrollment should give you enough time to gauge how you are handling the work. Check with your institution on their policies.

Also, when are you planning on taking the MCAT? If you take an April-June administration, do you think you will have sufficient time to prep for it if you are taking multiple science classes?

I guess I should also add that I spread myself a little thin last semester when I was planning for the MCAT (Research, club activities, working, tutoring several students) and got an MCAT score that was subideal (Low 30s, but unbalanced, which I think schools will look upon unfavorably). It may be enough to get me into a school this year, but if not, that means I have to retake and reapply the following year.

 

[selfhealer]

I think you would have to be an unbelievably outstanding student to get an A in organic chemistry without having General Chemistry under your belt. In fact, it is very hard to receive an A in organic chemistry after taking General Chemistry, let alone without it. I don't know what type of student you are and I don't want to underestimate your capabilities at all, I just personally don't think that taking General Chemistry and Organic Chemistry at the same time is the most intelligent choice. To get to the top of the mountain you have to climb the base first, and then slowly move up.

As far as MCATS go, You can take the MCAT June/July of the summer you want to apply and be perfectly in time for it. You would be studying along with taking Organic, however studying for the MCAT while taking Organic is much more realistic than taking Gen Chem and Organic at the same time. If you do follow this path, you won't have completed Organic II by the time you take the MCAT, but you will have built a solid enough understanding in organic chemistry. From what I have heard, the MCAT mainly deals with first semester Organic anyways. But you can get a general idea of these things from the MCAT study material. I personally like your original plan best. Studying for the MCATS while taking Orgo in the summer will be soooo much easier and less stressful than taking Physics, Chem, and Orgo at the same time. As long as you can have the will-power to study solid amounts for the MCAT you will do fine. Either choice is going to require hard work and a lot of studying. And if you don't do well in the classes it won't matter how well your MCAT is. No matter what you do, you have to get the grades, and have fun doing it 🙂

THanks so much for the advice. So you are suggesting I take Gen Chem and Physics this coming year. Then come summer, I take Orgo I and II while simultaneously studying for Mcats? Let me think about that....
Well luckily my college offers a summer "pre sessions" which begins in May. If Orgo I is offered in the pre-session and Orgo II is offered in the following summer session, I will be done with all my Orgo by late June.
So you are suggesting that I earnestly study for Mcats while taking Orgo next summer, and then hopefully take the Mcats sometime in July. Hmm..interesting.

A few things concern me however. First of course-is it reasonable to think Ill have time to study for the Mcats while taking Orgo in the summer? The reason I ask is that from what I understand, even under normal circumstances, Orgo is VERY demanding. Add the fact that I will be taking it in the summer which in my school's case means a semester of Orgo is condensed into 4 weeks. The class meets 4 days a week for 5 hours a day. Im actually notorious for thinking I can handle more then I actually can, and even I have trouble imagining how I could possibly find time to study for Mcats while taking Orgo with the summer schedule I listed.
The one saving grace of course will be that if I can somehow study for the Mcats while taking Orgo I and II next summer, I imagine my studying for the Orgo section of the Mcat will be pretty much taken care of in the course of my regular studying for my Orgo summer courses. Is this correct?
Lastly, if i indeed follow this schedule and take Orgo I and II next summer while studying for the Mcats, and bearing in mind I will be done with Orgo by early July, do you think its actually reasonable to think I can take the Mcats sometime in July, so that I can get my apps out by late July?? Thanks again-SH

 

[oaklandguy]

A few things concern me however. First of course-is it reasonable to think Ill have time to study for the Mcats while taking Orgo in the summer? The reason I ask is that from what I understand, even under normal circumstances, Orgo is VERY demanding. Add the fact that I will be taking it in the summer which in my school's case means a semester of Orgo is condensed into 4 weeks. The class meets 4 days a week for 5 hours a day. Im actually notorious for thinking I can handle more then I actually can, and even I have trouble imagining how I could possibly find time to study for Mcats while taking Orgo with the summer schedule I listed.
The one saving grace of course will be that if I can somehow study for the Mcats while taking Orgo I and II next summer, I imagine my studying for the Orgo section of the Mcat will be pretty much taken care of in the course of my regular studying for my Orgo summer courses. Is this correct?
Lastly, if i indeed follow this schedule and take Orgo I and II next summer while studying for the Mcats, and bearing in mind I will be done with Orgo by early July, do you think its actually reasonable to think I can take the Mcats sometime in July, so that I can get my apps out by late July?? Thanks again-SH

A 4 week course in orgo will be strenuous, but you must realize it is the only thing you are taking and your only priority as far as classes. You will undoubtedly have a hectic 8 weeks doing orgo and studying for the MCAT at the same time if you chose this path. It all depends on how much you want to study for the MCAT, I know people that spent 10 hours a week for 4 weeks that did very well. If you spent 2 months and studied on the weekends you should be fine. Plus the organic material will be fresh and really everything will be fresh in your mind so your review won't have to be very intense. If you take the test in July you won't get your results back until August, but you can start applying before you get your results back and as long as you get your results back by mid-august you should be fine. You may be a "tad" late, but not enough to completely cripple your chances. Just make sure you take research, volunteering, and clinical experience(probably during fall + winter) into consideration because GPA and MCAT alone do not get you into med school.

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

Just make sure you take research, volunteering, and clinical experience(probably during fall + winter) into consideration because GPA and MCAT alone do not get you into med school.

👍 Second this.

 

[Van Chowder]

Hey oP! i think some people have already offered some great advice, but I would not recommend doing this. I think you should at least get 1st semester gen chem out the way so you can learn about the basic bonding principles. From what I hear taking second semester gen chem and orgo is not that bad.

Just keep in mind that you do not want to shoot your self in the foot trying to get to medschool to quickly. A C in either of those classes can make it a dramatically more difficult battle for you.

Good luck!!

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

hi all, just had a quick question.
I am a 30 year old pre med student. I received my undergrad degree in religion back in 2001. Im now taking classes at my local university in order to get my pre-reqs for med school taken care of. My goal is to apply for the fall of 2011, but in order to do this, I must take Gen chem I, Orgo I and PhysI this fall, and then Gen chem II, Orgo II and Phys II in the spring.
I initially did not think this was possible (I assumed that you needed the knowledge of Gen Chem in order to take Orgo successfully), however, in another thread in which i discussed my planned schedule, several members here suggested that I take Gen Chem and Orgo at the same time.

My question is, in general, will most colleges actually allow me to take Orgo without having yet completed Gen Chem (bear in mind Im not a matriculated student at this college, I am just taking classes). I must add that the university cites Gen Chem II as a pre-requisite for Orgo. Is this meant as a suggestion, or does citing Gen Chem as a pre-req for Orgo mean that the school will truly not allow me to sign up for Orgo without having completed Gen Chem.

Secondly, assuming the school allows me to take Orgo at the same time as Gen Chem, is this a bad idea?? As I said, I assumed that Orgo built heavily on the information learned in Gen Chem, however several members suggested that this is not the case. Will Orgo be much harder for me to grasp without prior chemistry classes?

Thats all for now. Thanks-SH

1. If you taken AP Chem in HS, then you should be fine.
2. If you think you are really smart, then you should be fine.
3. If not, don't take both.

 

[Yudid]

If u take o-chem w/o gen chem background then it will be very hard... I dont know what school u go to and what kinda programs it has but in school which i am right now they offer intense gen chem classes, so u take two gen chems in one quarter.. and also they offer intense o-chem. I took intense o-chem. Class was suicidal, very intense 8 hours per day, so every class was 13 days long. I do not regret taking that course because it saved some time... I dont know if schools offer those kind of courses in your state

 

[NeuroSciSurg]

I took the year of gen chem and the year of organic in the same year, with all A's (minded I did take the year of calc. at the same time, and did get one C...) BUT, it's completely possible (did this while working full time in a medical clinic and in the OR).

good luck!

 

[scattun]

At a lot of universities, only Gen chem 1 is a prereq for organic, so I think it would definitely be doable to take both gen chem 2 and organic 1 in the spring semester. Also, based on the fact that there really isn't that much organic on the MCAT, you might be able to just take organic 2 the following fall while applying for medical school and taking the MCAT before actually having the class. This way, you could spend the summer focussing only on the MCAT and your EC's.

 

[Janitor]

Totally doable. Gen Chem I is highly recommended before ochem, but Gen Chem II is absolutely A-OK to take with ochem. Least that's how I did it, and I got A+/A. You should be ok if you have the drive to do well, which it looks like you do.


EDIT: Maybe I should learn 2 read OPs. I'd take gen chem before ochem to make it easier to understand - but you can get around it if you do lots of research and reading on VSEPR and all that crap before classes start 😛

 

[nwilkes]

1. Is it allowable by most colleges?
-Depends on the college. At mine, probably. You may have to talk to the dean and get a few signatures - but typically, colleges like to take your money. 🙂

2. Is it doable?
-I took Orgo having taken Gen chem 5 years previous and did just fine (not the same situation, but I remembered about as much gen chem as you probably know know. 🙂 ). However, it also required ~50 hours of studying for each test. I know of one student who took both at the same time. It is doable. Also depends if you're working, etc, beyond the ECs, and if you're doing other classes besides O and G chem and Phys....(I know I personally can't take more than 20 credits of 4 science classes with labs for each.)

3. Is it wise?
-You'll have to take these classes and do well - and like others mentioned, keep up with ECs, volunteering, shadowing, studying for MCATs. It depends on the type of student you are; some people only do well when challenged...

4. Orgo in the summer....
-doesn't sound like a bad idea, actually. July is not that late for the MCAT - I mean, as long as your AMCAS is completed, transcripts received, and everything, all you'd have to do is wait for the scores, and be able to get secondaries in very quickly (you could have the answers pretty much done, of course, from the prompts here). Yes, you would need to do actual MCAT orgo studying beyond your class. It's generally a different type of question than what class test q's are. Yes, it would be fresh in your mind which would help. 🙂 Also, summer classes are often cheaper. Something to consider.