Talking about URM status

[oioeoelgd154]

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Recently I've seen people comment "URM?" or other variations on threads after another person posts about getting an II or A. It strikes me as a weird way to signal that someone would only get an interview or acceptance based on their race/ethnicity. The application process is quick to reduce everything to GPA/MCAT/stats, but I think as a forum we can do better.

 

[gonnif]

Recently I've seen people comment "URM?" or other variations on threads after another person posts about getting an II or A. It strikes me as a weird way to signal that someone would only get an interview or acceptance based on their race/ethnicity. The application process is quick to reduce everything to GPA/MCAT/stats, but I think as a forum we can do better.

Whether we agree that this is fair or not, in order to impact the skewed distribution of physicians across marginalized, underserved and minority populations, trying to identify and educate students to become practicing doctors in these communities, URM/SES applicants are sought out. This is particularly true as a nation we have improved getting these students into college but a poor job of seeing that they graduate. You can see the data on this starting with AAMC FACTS table 8 how these self-identified students fare in this process. In many medical schools, during initial screening URM/SES status will be identified and may go to particular evaluation team.

I am sure that many applicants may see this as unfair. It is perfectly fair to the medical schools . Oh, you mean fair to individual applicants. Make no mistake: the mission is to identify and educate students to enter the pipeline to become physicians and applicants are the raw fodder for this process. The fairness here is you can apply or not. If you apply, you are accepting this process

Whether you agree with this policy or not, this is the reality that exists and the one you are applying with. I am not passing judgement on the policy just letting you know what is.

 

[oioeoelgd154]

I wholeheartedly support medical schools increasing representation of marginalized, underserved, and minority student physicians! I just think it's inappropriate for commenters on SDN to insinuate that the reason that applicants are getting interviews or acceptances is simply due to their URM status.

 

[gonnif]

I wholeheartedly support medical schools increasing representation of marginalized, underserved, and minority student physicians! I just think it's inappropriate for commenters on SDN to insinuate that the reason that applicants are getting interviews or acceptances is simply due to their URM status.

I strongly agree with the above. medical schools are looking for people who have what very broadly could call “character.” It isnt that applicants get accepted simply because they are URM/SES. They look closely from where they came and how “high” they rose thru what circumstances.

in short, applicants may be identified and screen by URM/SES. But they get accepted on their record

 

[Skarl]

I don’t understand what you hope to accomplish with this thread? If you understand that medical schools want to increase representation of underrepresented groups in medicine, then surely you can appreciate why someone might ask about URM-status when trying to glean information from others’ interview/acceptance offers (not that I advocate doing so). And regardless of how appropriate you think that is, I don’t think your thread is going to change anyone’s mind...

 

[Goro]

I strongly agree with the above. medical schools are looking for people who have what very broadly could call “character.” It isnt that applicants get accepted simply because they are URM/SES. They look closely from where they came and how “high” they rose thru what circumstances.

in short, applicants may be identified and screen by URM/SES. But they get accepted on their record

To follow up, no med school is doing anyone any favors by admitting people who won't be able to make it though med school. Hence, the URMs may get a boost, but they have the stats that show they can handle med school.

 

[oioeoelgd154]

I don’t understand what you hope to accomplish with this thread? If you understand that medical schools want to increase representation of underrepresented groups in medicine, then surely you can appreciate why someone might ask about URM-status when trying to glean information from others’ interview/acceptance offers (not that I advocate doing so). And regardless of how appropriate you think that is, I don’t think your thread is going to change anyone’s mind...

I brought it up to bring attention to the topic and civility to the conversation. SDN threads have quickly become reductionist around whether someone is "URM" or not and as a forum we can do better.

 

[getdown]

Application time is stressful and emotional because people really want to get in and very few do. Envy/jealousy/projection/etc will come out. Ultimately, who cares. The people who get in, get in. The people who don't, don't and nothing's going to change that fact no matter how much whiners will whine. So, let it roll off your shoulders and move on.

 

[theKingLT]

Recently I've seen people comment "URM?" or other variations on threads after another person posts about getting an II or A. It strikes me as a weird way to signal that someone would only get an interview or acceptance based on their race/ethnicity. The application process is quick to reduce everything to GPA/MCAT/stats, but I think as a forum we can do better.

People that ask about URM status are just trying to compare themselves to the poster in question. It makes about as much sense as trying to compare based on stats alone but alas that is the norm. I think the vast majority are not trying to insinuate anything along the lines of "that person doesnt deserve it".

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

People ask ORM or URM?
OOS or IS?
LM score?

these are ways to compare ourselves to other applicants. Are URMs supposed to be ashamed and hide this from people?

just because you’re not comfortable with this doesn’t mean other people are. Most people are fine with it.

 

[Peter Pan.]

There are valid reasons for discussing ORM and URM. Seems as though you’re projecting onto others. If people are ok with sharing certain things about their application then let them. Don’t see the harm in simply asking someone if they’re ORM or URM. Just like if they’re OOS or IS.

 

[proudofmykids]

To follow up, no med school is doing anyone any favors by admitting people who won't be able to make it though med school. Hence, the URMs may get a boost, but they have the stats that show they can handle med school.

Let's assume they have favorable stats, the bottom line is that URM gives an advantage over other candidates with similar stats which is why the question is asked when making comparisons in the SDN forums; it provides some means for reconciling different outcomes.

 

[deleted859689]

Recently I've seen people comment "URM?" or other variations on threads after another person posts about getting an II or A. It strikes me as a weird way to signal that someone would only get an interview or acceptance based on their race/ethnicity. The application process is quick to reduce everything to GPA/MCAT/stats, but I think as a forum we can do better.

“Doing better” would be nothing short of having people post their ECs and their life story in addition to their GPA/MCAT/stats.

I think there’s more to just being URM. I believe that URMs probably have more of an interesting story to tell than the regular applicant. Personally, I think knowing whether or not someone is URM without knowing their personal story is pretty useless. However, people on SDN are neurotic and want to find some way to compare themselves to other people getting IIs and As. I am guilty of this as well.

Yet, we see those with stellar GPA/MCAT/stats not matriculating, which is why I believe everyone’s personal story is just as important. But no one’s going to share that on an anonymous forum and the closest people can get is “URM?”

You shouldn’t judge people for asking the URM question. This is an anonymous forum where neurotic pre-meds try to extrapolate their chances by comparing themselves to others and getting feedback from adcoms. Don’t expect so much. People getting triggered so easily lately 😵

 

[deleted804295]

Let's assume they have favorable stats, the bottom line is that URM gives an advantage over other candidates with similar stats which is why the question is asked when making comparisons in the SDN forums; it provides some means for reconciling different outcomes.

Ask yourself why URM gives that extra boost. It isn't simply due to skin tone but rather an underlying story that makes them different from other candidates.

URMs are underrepresented for a reason and it boils down to institutional structures that put these groups at a disadvantage.

During my early interviews I saw very few students that were URM and of those that were- I can promise you they did not have the same life story as ORM Bobby.

 

[kellyk12]

Ugh I love white people justifying asking URM status and saying its the same as asking IS or OOS. LOVE IT

 

[Dr panda]

@gyngyn you know what to do sir

 

[deleted480308]

Recently I've seen people comment "URM?" or other variations on threads after another person posts about getting an II or A. It strikes me as a weird way to signal that someone would only get an interview or acceptance based on their race/ethnicity. The application process is quick to reduce everything to GPA/MCAT/stats, but I think as a forum we can do better.

If people want to get the boost based on their demographics, they have to deal with people knowing they got a boost based on their demographics. For all given stats, the acceptance rates differ widely by race and benefit URM

 

[deleted972488]

I'm not hopeful that productive discussion is going to come out of this thread, but let's just all keep in mind that there is a lot more that goes into an application than simply GPA, MCAT, and race/ethnicity. Trying to compare yourself to other applicants on these measurements alone is unlikely to get you anywhere.

 

[CidHighwind]

If URM got such a “boost” then you would think they would be tons of them in medical school. There’s really not, even “HBCUs” aren’t majority URM. There are thousands of students that are white/Asian getting medical school acceptances with “below average” scores all the time, but they don’t get the same stigma.

Also there’s more than ORM and URM. Most of us are Caucasian, which is neither ORM or underrepresented. There’s no “penalty” for being white like there is being Asian (although that may also be partly explained by how most Asians live in California).

 

[LizzyM]

Long ago I determined that interview offers favored active duty military and veterans equivalent to an additional 0.5 in GPA so I recommended adding 5 points to one's LizzyM score for those with military experience. I wonder now, some 10 years later, if the experience of being URM in America is not also equivalent to a 5 point bump in LizzyM score. Thoughts, hive?

 

[ThetisAntithesis]

Are you the same person that was offended that people are typing "Withdrawing my acceptance" on school-specific threads?

 

[ChymeofPassion]

If URM got such a “boost” then you would think they would be tons of them in medical school. There’s really not, even “HBCUs” aren’t majority URM. There are thousands of students that are white/Asian getting medical school acceptances with “below average” scores all the time, but they don’t get the same stigma.

Also there’s more than ORM and URM. Most of us are Caucasian, which is neither ORM or underrepresented. There’s no “penalty” for being white like there is being Asian (although that may also be partly explained by how most Asians live in California).

The boost is shown by the applicant to acceptance ratio at different MCAT/GPAs, not overall enrollment numbers. If you review AAMC table #24, that boost is obvious. Overall enrollment numbers are limited by application numbers, and you could take a whole sociology course on the reason for much lower URM application #s.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Are you the same person that was offended that people are typing "Withdrawing my acceptance" on school-specific threads?

Oh God I hope so

 

[Cornfed101]

None of this information is viewed in a vacuum, but it's not going to change on SDN. People are always going to ask "what are your stats?" or other questions that tell you nothing about your own chances to get into a specific school. It is all part of a larger story. Just because you are URM and have a 4.0 and a 520 MCAT doesn't mean you are going to get invited to interview at every school! You have to write well, have meaningful experiences, etc.. Adcoms aren't stupid and I think they are honestly trying to find the best students to become physicians. The process is not perfect, but it is what we have!

Should URM give you an advantage? Absolutely! You have different life experiences and we are in desperate need of physicians who can think differently to cater to different patient populations. Does it mean anything to some other person on an anonymous forum? Not at all, but anonymous people will be anonymous people. It's part of the deal when you participate in this forum. The bad comes with the good.

 

[Peter Pan.]

Ugh I love white people justifying asking URM status and saying its the same as asking IS or OOS. LOVE IT

Why isn’t it? Those are 4 common pieces of information I’ve seen in school specific threads. When getting an II people usually post ORM or URM. OOS or IS. Complete date. And then LM score. ORM or URM is part of the application process. If that’s offensive to you then don’t I know what to tell ya. You’re reading way too much into it.

For the record I wholeheartedly agree with the ORM and URM thing. URM is put in place to give us a diverse set of doctors for our diverse patient population. Anyone coming in here and saying URMs get a “boost” or don’t deserve it are wrong.

Many times people don’t even ask ORM or URM. People just post this when they get II. Assuming people have some type of racist motivation for asking or encouraging URM to not post their status when they have no problem with it is wrong too.

 

[TheNmaitochondria]

Why isn’t it? Those are 4 common pieces of information I’ve seen in school specific threads. When getting an II people usually post ORM or URM. OOS or IS. Complete date. And then LM score. ORM or URM is part of the application process. If that’s offensive to you then don’t I know what to tell ya. You’re reading way too much into it.

Equating asking for ORM/URM to OOS/IS completely misses the significance of the former holds. It's about the lived experiences, potential hardships, and the societal conditions that led an applicant to being uniquely ~them~, which can be very personal, and is so commonly used in a negative way to be like "oh well that's probably why they got II/A and I didn't"

The latter is only concerned with if you live in California or not (taking the UC system for example).

It's just three letters, but the implications and potentially responses/assumptions/stereotypes that could be generated (not always openly or consciously) make the two vastly different to ask about. That's why you can't really read into it too much bc it is literally people's lives.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I'm not hopeful that productive discussion is going to come out of this thread, but let's just all keep in mind that there is a lot more that goes into an application than simply GPA, MCAT, and ethnicity. Trying to compare yourself to other applicants on these measurements alone is unlikely to get you anywhere.

Well sure. Instead of asking people their stats on school specific threads you can just look at the MSAR for median GPA, MCAT, and the distribution of ORMs and URMs in each medical school class. You don’t really have to know and nothing will give you a clearer picture than the MSAR. But these questions or information by LM score are posted anyway when people get accepted or get an II. People just find it helpful. For whatever reason (neuroticism or curiosity) these things are posted. But if you don’t want to share certain information then you don’t have to.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

Equating asking for ORM/URM to OOS/IS completely misses the significance of the former holds. It's about the lived experiences, potential hardships, and the societal conditions that led an applicant to being uniquely ~them~, which can be very personal, and is so commonly used in a negative way to be like "oh well that's probably why they got II/A and I didn't"

The latter is only concerned with if you live in California or not (taking the UC system for example).

It's just three letters, but the implications and potentially responses/assumptions/stereotypes that could be generated (not always openly or consciously) make the two vastly different to ask about. That's why you can't really read into it too much bc it is literally people's lives.

Pretty sure the poster isn’t saying they equal each other like they’re the same exact thing. Lol. It’s just common questions that people ask or common things that people post. Do you people want a disclaimer every time someone asks?

“I agree with ORM and URM for medical school admissions. URM are often disadvantaged compared to their ORM colleagues. We need more URM doctors in the field of medicine hence the difference in GPA and MCAT. I’m not being racist when asking this question. Sorry in advance if I’m offending you.”

This message most be posted before asking.

“Well that’s why they got an II/A.” Mhmm no don’t see that 99% of the time in school specific threads. Rather I see “congratulations!” or “thanks for sharing. Go kill that interview!” Again some people here are projecting or taking offense when there shouldn’t be any. Most of the time when you see derogatory or offensive comments about being URM it’s when someone makes a thread about it and says the things like “you don’t deserve it” or “it’s an unfair advantage.”

Do you feel like ORM or URM shouldn’t be posted or asked about in school specific threads? Is that what some people are saying?

 

[TheNmaitochondria]

Pretty sure the poster isn’t saying they equal each other like they’re the same exact thing. Lol. It’s just common questions that people ask or common things that people post. Do you people want a disclaimer every time someone asks?

“I agree with ORM and URM for medical school admissions. URM are often disadvantaged compared to their ORM colleagues. We need more URM doctors in the field of medicine hence the difference in GPA and MCAT. I’m not being racist when asking this question. Sorry in advance if I’m offending you.”

This message most be posted before asking.

“Well that’s why they got an II/A.” Mhmm no don’t see that 99% of the time in school specific threads. Rather I see “congratulations!” or “thanks for sharing. Go kill that interview!” Again some people here are projecting or taking offense when there shouldn’t be any. Most of the time when you see derogatory or offensive comments about being URM it’s when someone makes a thread about it and says the things like “you don’t deserve it” or “it’s an unfair advantage.”

Do you feel like ORM or URM shouldn’t be posted or asked about in school specific threads? Is that what some people are saying?

Oh yeah I mean for the purposes of the website they're commonly asked I get that, and I personally don't think a disclaimer is necessary or anything to state you aren't racist bc we literally have no idea what race is asking the question (unless URM or ORM is in their signature).

All I was teasing at was that if people don't necessarily want to disclose it, they don't have to because of what ~could~ happen if someone were to have an offensive take on it. I felt that a lot with undergrad admissions, and it's still a very real thing that doesn't feel great. V invalidating.

And yes people are incredibly supportive of II/A, I'm just saying what may happen in those select threads or in a person's own mind, you know?

 

[gyngyn]

Closing.