Tell me affirmative action isn't as bad in med. schools compared to undergrad

[ChubbyChaser]

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So shouldn't asians be complaining that "less deserving whites" in terms of stats are taking spots from better qualified asians?

By the way, it is sort of sad how "Asian" is such a big generalization. When speaking of Asians, east asians usually come to mind, and perhaps south-asians also in terms of med school admissions. But people forget that this umbrella term also includes cambodians, vietnamese, and other southeast asians who tend to be A LOT LESS repesented in higher education. They derserve URM status, yet are stuck with ORM status due to the umbrella term Asian.

Not sure, Gpas are very close , and asians outscore whites by 0.8 pts on the MCAT which is really not that significant IMO.

 

[BrokenGlass]

This is the worst. It really bothers me when people have overcome adversity go on about how their situation is a paradigm of what all people can accomplish if they "just set their minds to it." If you look back in to your past you didn't have any positive role models or strong influences that helped you develop a value system that allowed you to succeed? If not man then you are truly an amazing and unique case, but frankly you can't possibly expect everyone to be able to do the same. Scratch that, go ahead and expect it, but since it won't happen we can just blame the people and not do anything to change the situation. I'm almost positive that you've had some significant positive influences in your life, either from parents or somewehre else, but if I'm wrong about this your cases is a huge outlier. So congrats, but expecting others to be able to do this is like expecting everyone to make 40+ on the mcat (nevermind the fact its a curved test).

I had no role models. Role models are overrated. People who want to join a gang and/or do drugs will make every excuse possible for their actions. People who believe my case is an outlier (yourself included) would benefit from changing their victim mentality and focusing on future opportunities instead of past grievances.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

How can we change the ATTITUDES of the parents? How do you think these "attitudes" developed in the first place?.

Funny, you attacked us for talking about the attitudes, yet you yourself confirmed that there were differing attitudes. Back off, these are just opinions, apparently no one has the superior knowledge that you do of the "ghetto"🙄

 

[Ahmed786]

In response to that, my friend who is a URM that got the 34 pretty much only studied verbal. The guy was a science freak. He started off with a 5 on VR for practice tests. He spent half a year studying mostly verbal and very little science for the MCAT. While practicing, his highest score was a 9. On test day, he got a 10 on VR after all that work. While I know many white friends of mine who were naturally able to get away with minimal studying of VR. So maybe VR is a little bit biased towards whites. Just my 2cents... obviously all from personal experience rather than some huge statistical survey.

Not towards whites... just people who grew up with English as their first language

 

[Drogba]

I had no role models. Role models are overrated. People who want to join a gang and/or do drugs will make every excuse possible for their actions. People who believe my case is an outlier (yourself included) would benefit from changing their victim mentality and focusing on future opportunities instead of past grievances.

You should be a motivational speaker! I've finally met a person who believes they pulled themselves up from their own bootstraps without any help from anyone or anything. Your case is an outlier (assuming you are presenting it fully), its no belief. I don't have victim mentality I just have an appreciation for human psychology and the population sciences like sociology and anthropology that seek to look beyond one persons' interpretation of their own life. I won't make an appeal to common sense since that seems to be a pretty contentious construct.

 

[Drogba]

Funny, you attacked us for talking about the attitudes, yet you yourself confirmed that there were differing attitudes. Back off, these are just opinions, apparently no one has the superior knowledge that you do of the "ghetto"🙄

Dude, my entire post's point was the necessity of actually trying to integrate a variety of evidence into an opinion, not that I have supreme knowledge. The "analysis" that you two agreed upon was simplistic to the point of ridiculousness.

 

[BrokenGlass]

You should be a motivational speaker! I've finally met a person who believes they pulled themselves up from their own bootstraps without any help from anyone or anything. Your case is an outlier (assuming you are presenting it fully), its no belief. I don't have victim mentality I just have an appreciation for human psychology and the population sciences like sociology and anthropology that seek to look beyond one persons' interpretation of their own life. I won't make an appeal to common sense since that seems to be a pretty contentious construct.

Your problem is that you look for role models and motivational speakers. I could not care less for either. If my case is an outlier, it's only because people need to change their way of thinking and start working harder instead of falling apart at first sign of hardships. Since you seem to be an expert on sociology and anthropology, perhaps you can help them do that.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Dude, my entire post's point was the necessity of actually trying to integrate a variety of evidence into an opinion, not that I have supreme knowledge. The "analysis" that you two agreed upon was simplistic to the point of ridiculousness.

mmmk

 

[Ahmed786]

So shouldn't asians be complaining that "less deserving whites" in terms of stats are taking spots from better qualified asians?

By the way, it is sort of sad how "Asian" is such a big generalization. When speaking of Asians, east asians usually come to mind, and perhaps south-asians also in terms of med school admissions. But people forget that this umbrella term also includes cambodians, vietnamese, and other southeast asians who tend to be A LOT LESS repesented in higher education. They derserve URM status, yet are stuck with ORM status due to the umbrella term Asian.

Another point to go along with this, "Asian" is not a race it simply does not make any sense. By that token, they should use the term "Africans" to describe Blacks although they do not because then a White born in Africa would receive URM status.

You gotta love how on amwatts0322's original link on the first page, Puerto Ricans and Hawaiians get their own column but Asians are all kind of just grouped up together. (Funny also since in MSAR they distinguish many different ethnicities, I was shocked to see Pakistani separated from Indian )

 

[Drogba]

Your problem is that you look for role models and motivational speakers. I could not care less for either. If my case is an outlier, it's only because people need to change their way of thinking and start working harder instead of falling apart at first sign of hardships. Since you seem to be an expert on sociology and anthropology, perhaps you can help them do that.

Yes having an appreciation for alternate viewpoints and a comprehensive examination of social conditions is the same as claiming expertise. Well put. You are also very on target about my character, I spend most of my time in the self-help section of borders. You though stand on your own two feet. 👍

 

[g8terboi]

as an asian applicant, I am appalled that great asian applicants, who clearly will go on to make excellent doctors (due to their test scores),
are turned away by medical schools because of whites and hispanics and blacks, some of whom will go on to be incompetent doctors (clearly predicted by their test scores and GPA). I mean, WTF??? How many more patients need to die due to this f'ed up application process that turns away great future asian doctors?

Sarcasm aside, here are a couple points I want to bring up/re-emphasize:

1. Numbers don't mean that much. It's so ridiculous and simple minded to just focus on numbers. If GPA and MCATs meant the world, why the heck are we so worried about interviews and essays and letters of rec? Instead of seeing URM status as an unjust label that turns away more qualified applicants, why can't you people see it as another kind of qualification? I'll argue in point #2 why it's important to have more URM doctors in society. I mean I don't hear people with solid stats 32+/3.4+ who haven't received interviews or acceptance complain about how unfair the interviews or the personal statement requirements are.

2. I mean, imagine if people who ran your society had a different sub-culture than you, and the group of people that you identified with have a historical perception of inferiority. Alright BrokenGlass, good for you. You had no role models and you made it with mental strength, confidence, and hard work alone. Even if your freaking environment held you back, you still succeed. You know what, not everyone are as special as you, buddy. Many (but of course not all) URM see no role models in society, rebel against "majority/white" culture, including formal education, and live in families/communities that have no expectation of success. One of the most important ways that we can improve the confidence, self-esteem, and expectation of success for some URM is to provide successful role models than are leaders in "majority culture." Furthermore, as some have mentioned already, it's important to have doctors who share the URM perspective, not only to better serve the URM patient base but to also exchange perspectives with other medical students/doctors.


3. The process is far from perfect. Clearly, the URM label could probably be better defined to single out those from backgrounds that had traditionally been most underprivileged in american society. But just because the way URM receive consideration isn't perfect doesn't mean the goal behind this process is wrong. I think it's wrong to compare two applicants next to each other and imply that one applicant's fate was the direct result of the other's. Even if the OP's story is 100% true, which I believe would be very unfortunate, you can not assume that the same admissions committee member decided that only one of the two could be admitted to Penn...we all know how subjective and unpredictable this process can be, especially when many different people with different backgrounds, biases, and personalities are involved.

 

[artaxerxes]

i

 

[BrokenGlass]

Yes having an appreciation for alternate viewpoints and a comprehensive examination of social conditions is the same as claiming expertise. Well put. You are also very on target about my character, I spend most of my time in the self-help section of borders. You though stand on your own two feet. 👍

How can you claim to have an appreciation for alternative viewpoints when all you are doing is trying to sell your own? Comprehensive examination? Social conditions? Admit it, you have been infected with "I am a victim" virus. You remind me of people who plead not guilty to a crime they committed because they were abused and/or had no role models to hold their hands. If you truly want to be comprehensive, you need to include socioeconomic status and not race (like many people have already pointed it out) in determining who gets a leg up. But I stand by my claim that a person for whom English is not a second language can very rarely legitimately make excuses for poor academic performance.

 

[banana5]

I posted this in the first thread, but it has deteriorated to personal attacks with actual comments about the issue lost in the process. I'd really like to hear what people think about the points that I've made, so I'll restate them here:

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I've thought about this issue for a long time and took a class taught by a very liberal professor (you can guess what sort of research he presented). If someone could address these points respectfully/intelligently I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say:

I am against affirmative action for the following reasons:

1) I do not dispute that minorities have been discriminated against in the past, are still discriminated against, and are thus at a disadvantage in many ways in our society. Likewise I don't dispute that it's appalling how few minorities there are in prominent positions, etc., and think that it's ludicrous to suggest that simply "work ethic" or "genes" or some other simplistic idea is to blame for this. Society is to blame for this, and as society we need to do something to level the playing field, so to speak.

However, I can think of no justification for why minorities who have been disadvantaged in education should have a leg up on non-minorities who have been equally disadvantaged. What possible argument is there against a program that is race-blind, and simply takes into consideration what sort of opportunities the applicant had growing up? Minorities are unfairly concentrated in the most disadvantaged (economically, etc.) part of society, so this sort of program would disproportionately help minorities anyway.

Side note: as time goes on, more and more minorities will be helped by affirmative action and will hopefully be able to be successful in their careers, etc., and thus become economically "advantaged." As the number of minorities in such a position grows, the need for a race-blind affirmative action program will become more and more obvious. As the program currently stands, minorities from wealthy families get the same "help" as those from disadvantaged families. In fact, I would argue that they get even more help, because schools want to keep their numbers as high as possible and the minority from a wealthy background will most likely have better scores than one from a disadvantaged background. With time, if affirmative action is effective, this situation will become more and more common. Either way, I think it's stupid that a wealthy minority kid gets a leg up over an economically disadvantaged white kid.

2) When should affirmative action stop? Taking medical education as an example, it seems that affirmative action is common throughout the process. It helps kids who would otherwise not get into college X get in, does the same for med. school, etc. But at what point should this stop?

The argument for affirmative action is that minorities don't have the same advantages as non-minorities, and had they had the same advantages they'd look just as good on paper, so give them a break. Ok, help kids get into college, but at that point, aren't we all more or less on the same playing field? This is a separate question, and one might argue we're not because a non-minority could be better prepared for the rigors of college than a minority, but a separate question is, does it really matter? Say a minority student is helped into college X and doesn't perform well there. Ok, no big deal. Then they're helped into med. school X, and don't perform well there. Also not a big deal - just keep helping them. But if after all of the help and leveling of playing fields the minority student just can't perform at a given level, what's the point? Do we really want doctors like this? I'm not saying that this is destined to happen for all or even some applicants, but it's still something to think about.

By the way, with the affirmative action program based on general disadvantages that I mentioned earlier, I would also think it to be inappropriate to continue it at a higher level. If a kid from a poor family just simply can not perform well in med school, he shouldn't be a doctor.

3) This is a weaker point, but I think it's still valid: the program is unfair to applicants who would not need the help and who are just as capable as their non-minority peers. I don't think I'm being racist in any way when I say this, but if I were about to have a high-risk operation and I could choose between a white surgeon and a hispanic one and didn't know anything else about them, I'd take the white one. And you would too. Why? Because of the AAMC data posted earlier in this thread about the differences between matriculants. The hispanic doctor could be 10x better than the white one, but there is literally no way to know just how much someone was helped along the way. Maybe the hispanic doctor was a 4.0/45 student - I just simply wouldn't know. I'm not saying that grades make good doctors or anything like that, but you know what I mean.

4) To respond to what LizzyM said; I don't think that the number of spots "given up" to minorities should be a factor in our decision as a society on the program in general. The small number of spots takes the sting out of it, so to speak, for those who are personally hurt when they think that others who are less qualified are getting in ahead of them in droves. But that's all it does - it doesn't really address the underlying issues.

5) Lastly, I think we can all agree that the ideal world would be entirely race-blind. Nobody would have an advantage over anybody else just because of their skin color, and that would be that. I think that we should be conscious of this goal when designing affirmative action programs and would argue that a race-blind (economically disadvantage)-based affirmative action program does much more to steer us in that direction than does the current program. At the very least, we wouldn't be having discussions like this one.
banana5 is offline Reply With Quote

 

[BigRedPremed]

Asians work hard and don't go around being loud and bothering people about changing race categories. In the end it really doesn't matter, as long as you are Asia, you are ****ed, really doesn't matter if you're indian, a malay, or chinese.

I always find it funny how Asians, many of whom weren't born in this country, greatly outscore blacks, who are mostly born here and have English as a native language. Asians just kick more ass in general

In some ways this mentality is an advantage, in some ways a disadvantage. I wish Asians would be more assertive. Asians are still largely excluded from politics and high level managerial/corporate positions. That's how we arrive at the stereotype of the Asian as a quiet, mild-mannered number-cruncher.

And, yet, the attitude you describe is the one my parents have always told me to subscribe to. I think we knew early along that it was going to be an uphill battle, that we wouldn't get any breaks and advantages, that we would have to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. It's worked well for my parents and it's worked well for me.

 

[Drogba]

How can you claim to have an appreciation for alternative viewpoints when all you are doing is trying to sell your own? Comprehensive examination? Social conditions? Admit it, you have been infected with "I am a victim" virus. You remind me of people who plead not guilty to a crime they committed because they were abused and/or had no role models to hold their hands. If you truly want to be comprehensive, you need to include socioeconomic status and not race (like many people have already pointed it out) in determining who gets a leg up. But I stay by my claim that a person for whom English is not a second language can very rarely legitimately make exuces for poor academic performance.

I think socieconomic status is paramount and nowhere did I explicitly state that I think AA is anything close to a perfect system or that it doesn't have perverse and unintended results. I'm amazed that you can discount environmental and social factors so easily. I'm glad most people do not share this viewpoint.

 

[artaxerxes]

How can you claim to have an appreciation for alternative viewpoints when all you are doing is trying to sell your own? Comprehensive examination? Social conditions? Admit it, you have been infected with "I am a victim" virus. You remind me of people who plead not guilty to a crime they committed because they were abused and/or had no role models to hold their hands. If you truly want to be comprehensive, you need to include socioeconomic status and not race (like many people have already pointed it out) in determining who gets a leg up. But I stay by my claim that a person for whom English is not a second language can very rarely legitimately make exuces for poor academic performance.

I agree with you mostly, but parents and background also matter to a degree.
If your parents don't care if you drink with them and get ****faced everynight, its kinda hard to do well in school work later on. You can't believe how many black students that I have contact with tells me this. I know far more asians, and I don't know any asian parents who would let this **** happen.

 

[BrokenGlass]

as an asian applicant, I am appalled that great asian applicants, who clearly will go on to make excellent doctors (due to their test scores),
are turned away by medical schools because of whites and hispanics and blacks, some of whom will go on to be incompetent doctors (clearly predicted by their test scores and GPA). I mean, WTF??? How many more patients need to die due to this f'ed up application process that turns away great future asian doctors?

Sarcasm aside, here are a couple points I want to bring up/re-emphasize:

1. Numbers don't mean that much. It's so ridiculous and simple minded to just focus on numbers. If GPA and MCATs meant the world, why the heck are we so worried about interviews and essays and letters of rec? Instead of seeing URM status as an unjust label that turns away more qualified applicants, why can't you people see it as another kind of qualification? I'll argue in point #2 why it's important to have more URM doctors in society. I mean I don't hear people with solid stats 32+/3.4+ who haven't received interviews or acceptance complain about how unfair the interviews or the personal statement requirements are.

2. I mean, imagine if people who ran your society had a different sub-culture than you, and the group of people that you identified with have a historical perception of inferiority. Alright BrokenGlass, good for you. You had no role models and you made it with mental strength, confidence, and hard work alone. Even if your freaking environment held you back, you still succeed. You know what, not everyone are as special as you, buddy. Many (but of course not all) URM see no role models in society, rebel against "majority/white" culture, including formal education, and live in families/communities that have no expectation of success. One of the most important ways that we can improve the confidence, self-esteem, and expectation of success for some URM is to provide successful role models than are leaders in "majority culture." Furthermore, as some have mentioned already, it's important to have doctors who share the URM perspective, not only to better serve the URM patient base but to also exchange perspectives with other medical students/doctors.


3. The process is far from perfect. Clearly, the URM label could probably be better defined to single out those from backgrounds that had traditionally been most underprivileged in american society. But just because the way URM receive consideration isn't perfect doesn't mean the goal behind this process is wrong. I think it's wrong to compare two applicants next to each other and imply that one applicant's fate was the direct result of the other's. Even if the OP's story is 100% true, which I believe would be very unfortunate, you can not assume that the same admissions committee member decided that only one of the two could be admitted to Penn...we all know how subjective and unpredictable this process can be, especially when many different people with different backgrounds, biases, and personalities are involved.

Are you kidding me? If numbers didn't mean that much, MSAR would not publish them and schools would not screen. I hope you don't seriously believe what you are saying here.

 

[Drogba]

Asians work hard and don't go around being loud and bothering people about changing race categories. In the end it really doesn't matter, as long as you are from Asia, you are ****ed, really doesn't matter if you're indian, a malay, or chinese.

I always find it funny how Asians, many of whom weren't born in this country, greatly outscore blacks, who are mostly born here and have English as a native language. Asians just kick more ass in general

This expression of racial superiority bordering on racial supremicism rhetoric is nauseating...

 

[artaxerxes]

This expression of racial superiority bordering on racial supremicism rhetoric is nauseating...

ah, but as someone said, Asian is not a race. As you can see Indians, Afghans, Chinese, Hmong, and Malays are quite different sir, unless we all look alike to you.

 

[BrokenGlass]

I think socieconomic status is paramount and nowhere did I explicitly state that I think AA is anything close to a perfect system or that it doesn't have perverse and unintended results. I'm amazed that you can discount environmental and social factors so easily. I'm glad most people do not share this viewpoint.

So now you claim to represent most people? If your enviroment sucks, it's up to you to make the best of it instead of focusing on how much it sucks and then turning to gangs/drugs, etc. to deal with it / escape from it. Learn to take responsibility for your own actions instead of saying "he/she made me do it."

 

[LizzyM]

This expression of racial superiority bordering on racial supremicism rhetoric is nauseating...

Is it any surprise that some people would prefer a physician of their own race over someone (who might have had higher board scores) who holds racist attitudes about that racial group.

 

[badasshairday]

Asians work hard and don't go around being loud and bothering people about changing race categories. In the end it really doesn't matter, as long as you are from Asia, you are ****ed, really doesn't matter if you're indian, a malay, or chinese.

I always find it funny how Asians, many of whom weren't born in this country, greatly outscore blacks, who are mostly born here and have English as a native language. Asians just kick more ass in general

On a side note, artaxerxes, GAWD DAYUM YOUR MCAT IS HUGE!!!!!

Funny thing is though you have the typical asian problem with your VR being your lowest sections. 👍

 

[BigRedPremed]

Well it was fun while it lasted (for the first few pages anyway). Unfortunately, the thread has degenerated into personal attacks. We all know who to thank 🙄

 

[Drogba]

ah, but as someone said, Asian is not a race. As you can see Indians, Afghans, Chinese, Hmong, and Malays are quite different sir, unless we all look alike to you.

White is not a race either, yet their is white supremacism. Nice try to make me sound like a racist lol. You are clever!

 

[BigRedPremed]

On a side note, artaxerxes, GAWD DAYUM YOUR MCAT IS HUGE!!!!!

Funny thing is though you have the typical asian problem with your VR being your lowest sections. 👍

haha I actually scored higher on verbal (790) than math on my SAT's. My dad (a mathematician) called up ETS just to make sure they didn't flip flop the scores.

 

[Drogba]

Is it any surprise that some people would prefer a physician of their own race over someone (who might have had higher board scores) who holds racist attitudes about that racial group.

Not at all. I'm really struck with disbelief of some of the things people have said on this thread. Very disheartening.

 

[Drogba]

So now you claim to represent most people? If your enviroment sucks, it's up to you to make the best of it instead of focusing on how much it sucks and then turning to gangs/drugs, etc. to deal with it / escape from it. Learn to take responsibility for your own actions instead of saying "he/she made me do it."

Doyou really think that most people take the extreme stance that environment has no bearing on outcome? I guess I was right when I said I better not make any appeals to common sense.

 

[badasshairday]

haha I actually scored higher on verbal (790) than math on my SAT's. My dad (a mathematician) called up ETS just to make sure they didn't flip flop the scores.

At least you made it all back to normal on the MCAT with your VR score. 👍

 

[ChubbyChaser]

on another note, how come I havent met any Asian Lawyers? Only Drs and Science professors, do they not like the humanities and social sciences?? lol

 

[artaxerxes]

On a side note, artaxerxes, GAWD DAYUM YOUR MCAT IS HUGE!!!!!

Funny thing is though you have the typical asian problem with your VR being your lowest sections. 👍

Surprisingly my SAT's VR was higher than the math. As my Indian friend likes to say, its pretty hand of God.

 

[flaahless]

Hmm... too bad I missed this.

 

[BrokenGlass]

Doyou really think that most people take the extreme stance that environment has no bearing on outcome? I guess I was right when I said I better not make any appeals to common sense.

It has bearing on outcome, but it's up to a person to deal with this environment instead of making excuses. But if you like taking the easy way out, go ahead.

 

[artaxerxes]

on another note, how come I havent met any Asian Lawyers? Only Drs and Science professors, do they not like the humanities and social sciences?? lol

there are plenty of asian lawyers, but not many known ones I suppose, but I can't exactly name any well-known lawyers (not judge) off the top of my head. The asian law students I know tend not to gravitate toward legislation or government work. They tend to gravitate toward $$$

 

[g8terboi]

Are you kidding me? If numbers didn't mean that much, MSAR would not publish them and schools would not screen. I hope you don't seriously believe what you are saying here.

dude, numbers don't mean that much. It's the best way that admissions committees have to evaluate candidates, but I can name many people that I know that may have lower numbers than others but would make better doctors because of other qualities (some reflect in LOR, EC, but some are just intangibles). I'm glad our system has reformed to the point where, unlike the past and in other parts of the word, where a single test score determined practically everything, candidates are evaluated more holistically. Coming from a traditional asian culture background, I understand first hand the limitations of assuming that academic success will translate into professional and post-academic success.

 

[LaMusicienne]

Asians work hard and don't go around being loud and bothering people about changing race categories. In the end it really doesn't matter, as long as you are from Asia, you are ****ed, really doesn't matter if you're indian, a malay, or chinese.

I always find it funny how Asians, many of whom weren't born in this country, greatly outscore blacks, who are mostly born here and have English as a native language. Asians just kick more ass in general

Sorry, as an Asian, I am embarrassed that you have made such a grossly generalized view of our race. I certainly hope this point of view is not pervasive within the Asian culture.

And while the statistics support that foreign-born Asians score better than native African-Americans, it's not funny as you have insensitively outlined. It's a tragedy that needs to be fixed from the roots up.

 

[Drogba]

Hmm... too bad I missed this.

Man I bet **** like this makes you feel like you are carrying the weight of your race on your shoulders... I hope not.

 

[mcatslave]

How can you claim to have an appreciation for alternative viewpoints when all you are doing is trying to sell your own? Comprehensive examination? Social conditions? Admit it, you have been infected with "I am a victim" virus. You remind me of people who plead not guilty to a crime they committed because they were abused and/or had no role models to hold their hands. If you truly want to be comprehensive, you need to include socioeconomic status and not race (like many people have already pointed it out) in determining who gets a leg up. But I stay by my claim that a person for whom English is not a second language can very rarely legitimately make excuces for poor academic performance.

BrokenGlass your ignorance and lack of awareness is a terrible thing to be proud off and display openly. Your obviously not black, and you have never lived a day of your life as a minority. Please refrain from posting ignorant judgmental comments.

 

[BrokenGlass]

dude, numbers don't mean that much. It's the best way that admissions committees have to evaluate candidates, but I can name many people that I know that may have lower numbers than others but would make better doctors because of other qualities (some reflect in LOR, EC, but some are just intangibles). I'm glad our system has reformed to the point where, unlike the past and in other parts of the word, where a single test score determined practically everything, candidates are evaluated more holistically. Coming from a traditional asian culture background, I understand first hand the limitations of assuming that academic success will translate into professional and post-academic success.

Numbers mean a lot. Sure I don't think 3.9, 45 T make you look that much better than 3.7, 35 S, but if you don't have the numbers, the adcoms will questions your ability to survive med school. Your numbers should still be high enough to get your foot in the door. By today's standards, high enough is pretty damn high. I am not saying that it's all about the numbers, but you cannot seriously claim that number don't mean that much.

 

[badasshairday]

dude, numbers don't mean that much. It's the best way that admissions committees have to evaluate candidates, but I can name many people that I know that may have lower numbers than others but would make better doctors because of other qualities (some reflect in LOR, EC, but some are just intangibles). I'm glad our system has reformed to the point where, unlike the past and in other parts of the word, where a single test score determined practically everything, candidates are evaluated more holistically. Coming from a traditional asian culture background, I understand first hand the limitations of assuming that academic success will translate into professional and post-academic success.

Good post.

 

[flaahless]

3) This is a weaker point, but I think it's still valid: the program is unfair to applicants who would not need the help and who are just as capable as their non-minority peers. I don't think I'm being racist in any way when I say this, but if I were about to have a high-risk operation and I could choose between a white surgeon and a hispanic one and didn't know anything else about them, I'd take the white one. And you would too. Why? Because of the AAMC data posted earlier in this thread about the differences between matriculants. The hispanic doctor could be 10x better than the white one, but there is literally no way to know just how much someone was helped along the way. Maybe the hispanic doctor was a 4.0/45 student - I just simply wouldn't know. I'm not saying that grades make good doctors or anything like that, but you know what I mean.

Hahahaha, not racist but definitely prejudiced. That mentality really helps quell the problem.

Secondly, I didn't know that med school admission stats meant as much as graduation stats. That type of ignorance only perpetuates the problem. Way to contribute.

 

[flaahless]

Man I bet **** like this makes you feel like you are carrying the weight of your race on your shoulders... I hope not.

Essentially. I feel like I have to defend myself against everyone. But whatever. All I can hope is that some of these individuals are in my med school class and my performance can dispell some of their prejudiced thoughts.

 

[BrokenGlass]

BrokenGlass your ignorance and lack of awareness is a terrible thing to be proud off and display openly. Your obviously not black, and you have never lived a day of your life as a minority. Please refrain from posting ignorant judgmental comments.

I have lived many years of my life as a minority. Your narrow definition of minority, which you seem to confine to racial minority, makes you ignorant.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

artaxerxes, I look forward to you defending your views in person in front of other accepted applicants. Ill see you at the UMich revisit.

 

[badasshairday]

Numbers mean a lot. Sure I don't think 3.9, 45 T make you look that much better than 3.7, 35 S, but if you don't have the numbers, the adcoms will questions your ability to survive med school. Your numbers should still be high enough to get your foot in the door. By today's standards, high enough is pretty damn high. I am not saying that it's all about the numbers, but you cannot seriously claim that number don't mean that much.

Numbers are a way to get your foot in the door like you say. Then it depends on other intangibles that are looked at to determine whether or not a person will make a good doctor. Back in the day, MCAT averages were not as high as they are today, yet we still have an buttload of good docs. Number are just numbers. Yes, the number to get a foot in the door is lower for URM's, but they still will be good docs.

 

[g8terboi]

So now you claim to represent most people? If your enviroment sucks, it's up to you to make the best of it instead of focusing on how much it sucks and then turning to gangs/drugs, etc. to deal with it / escape from it. Learn to take responsibility for your own actions instead of saying "he/she made me do it."

It's funny, "conservatives" mock "liberals" for being too idealistic (which in many instances I do agree that many liberals), but idealistic conservatism is just as ridiculous. I mean, everyone could "just take responsibility" for their actions, but every single person i've ever met, including myself, has made excuses in one way or another. Sometimes, the cause of what happens is a matter of perspective - whether it's an excuse is a matter of perspective ( just as some could say you could take "responsibility" and just suck up the fact that this process is unfair, instead of complaining about others who should suck it up)

I do agree with you, BrokenGlass, to a certain extent. People who have traditionally struggled need to have more feeling of control over their lives. However, I think it's naive to expect people to naturally become "responsible," whatever this buzzword means to you. Should we expect alcoholics to take responsibility and just get over drinking? How about others who have addictions, whether it's to a substance, infidelity, their work, or other bad habits? How much control do people really have? Again, I think it's a good thing to have people believe they have control, but it's ridiculous IMHO to expect people to have 100% control over everything, ignoring the influence of background, culture, familial habits, personality, and, for lack of better words, inherent human fallibilities.

 

[badasshairday]

I'm part eskimo you ignorant jerk!

 

[Perrotfish]

Secondly, I didn't know that med school admission stats meant as much as graduation stats. That type of ignorance only perpetuates the problem. Way to contribute.

Do we have the graduation stats? Are they any different that the admission stats?

 

[g8terboi]

Numbers mean a lot. Sure I don't think 3.9, 45 T make you look that much better than 3.7, 35 S, but if you don't have the numbers, the adcoms will questions your ability to survive med school. Your numbers should still be high enough to get your foot in the door. By today's standards, high enough is pretty damn high. I am not saying that it's all about the numbers, but you cannot seriously claim that number don't mean that much.

I mean numbers aren't a terribly good reflection of how good of a doctor an applicant will become. Just because MCAT scores may correlate with Step 1 scores doesn't meant that these numbers correlate well with clinical scores and overall ability as a doctor. I don't have numbers, but I've just met way too many people who have books smarts, but not nearly as much people smarts, and, sometimes, even less compassion and competence. And why do you believe that 3.9/45 is not that much better than 3.7/35?

 

[badasshairday]

The other affirm action threads are just mud slinging and name calling. I hope to continue a civil discussion here.

My view is that numbers don't mean all that much.