Telling 2nd program that it is number 2 (specifically)

[patch28]

I've read multiple threads about telling your top program that they are number 1. I've read the guidelines on the NRMP about what can and can not be said by each party in the match, so I am fammiliar with the limits. I've also read about debating phraseology about "will rank you highly" or "near the top of my list". However, I am curious about telling program number two, specifically.

I love both of my top two programs. Program 1 gets top spot because I like the town slightly more than the other town, though I would be very happy in either. I want to tell my 2nd program, in no uncertain terms, that I love the program, it is number two, and just barely not number one. I mentioned this to some of my fellow med students, and they all thought it was a very bad idea, but, to me, telling a program that it will be ranked "highly" or "near the top" already tells it that I'm not ranking it nunmber 1, and I think a very positive e-mail reiterating everything I love about the program could help me in its ranking.

Are there any PDs who would like to weigh in? Any former applicants who have done this, themselves? Many thanks for the advice.

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[RussianJoo]

I became friendly with a resident at my number 2 progarm (the guy also went to my med school, so i felt closer to him.) in one of my last conversations with him i told him that I will rank his program #2 simply because it's a 12 hour drive from my friends and family and my #1 place is a 3 hour drive, Otherwise I love everything about the program, and I really think that hurt my chances because, instead of getting a reply like well I understand it's cool, he just said "well good luck to you", and that felt a little cold to me. I might be mistaken because this was all through email, however, I still feel like it hurt my chances, which totally blows because I love everything about the program only that it's alittle far away from my family. Of course I'd move there and would be very happy if I matched there but I would prefer to be a little closer. I thought that since it's something that can't be changed by the program it wouldn't hurt me as much, and the fact that I was honest with him would only help me, because our friendship would grow. but I really think no matter the reason it will hurt your chance. It's much better to just be vague and say I plan on ranking you at the top of my list. unless your program is #1 don't tell them you'll rank them #1.

 

[atsai3]

I've read multiple threads about telling your top program that they are number 1. I've read the guidelines on the NRMP about what can and can not be said by each party in the match, so I am fammiliar with the limits. I've also read about debating phraseology about "will rank you highly" or "near the top of my list". However, I am curious about telling program number two, specifically.

I love both of my top two programs. Program 1 gets top spot because I like the town slightly more than the other town, though I would be very happy in either. I want to tell my 2nd program, in no uncertain terms, that I love the program, it is number two, and just barely not number one. I mentioned this to some of my fellow med students, and they all thought it was a very bad idea, but, to me, telling a program that it will be ranked "highly" or "near the top" already tells it that I'm not ranking it nunmber 1, and I think a very positive e-mail reiterating everything I love about the program could help me in its ranking.

Are there any PDs who would like to weigh in? Any former applicants who have done this, themselves? Many thanks for the advice.

There is very little to be gained by playing this game, because your telling a program that you consider them to be your #1 choice will not have any effect on the program's consideration of your place in the rank list. (Note that this inference is only based on the 3 'prestigious' institutions where I have detailed knowledge of their selection procedures.)

Even if there was a small benefit to be gained by notifying your top ranked program of their #1 status, there is no gaming this unless you are willing to lie to multiple programs and tell multiple programs that "you are my #1". There have been multiple threads posted on SDN where students are describing the anxieties they experience when they hear a phrase from a program like "we will be ranking you very highly". Then make an inference about the selection committee's perspective based on your own experience. A selection committee knows that -- unless it is willing to believe that you are among the minority of students willing to lie -- you will only tell one program "you are my #1". Anything else you say (e.g., "I loved your program very much", "I will be ranking your program very highly", etc) will be interpreted as "you are my #2 or less".

There is nothing to be gained by participating in this gamesmanship. Simply be honest with the programs if you want to, and if you don't want to, then don't tell them anything. That's it.

-AT.

 

[Law2Doc]

I've read multiple threads about telling your top program that they are number 1. I've read the guidelines on the NRMP about what can and can not be said by each party in the match, so I am fammiliar with the limits. I've also read about debating phraseology about "will rank you highly" or "near the top of my list". However, I am curious about telling program number two, specifically.

I love both of my top two programs. Program 1 gets top spot because I like the town slightly more than the other town, though I would be very happy in either. I want to tell my 2nd program, in no uncertain terms, that I love the program, it is number two, and just barely not number one. I mentioned this to some of my fellow med students, and they all thought it was a very bad idea, but, to me, telling a program that it will be ranked "highly" or "near the top" already tells it that I'm not ranking it nunmber 1, and I think a very positive e-mail reiterating everything I love about the program could help me in its ranking.

Are there any PDs who would like to weigh in? Any former applicants who have done this, themselves? Many thanks for the advice.

Matching is a lot like asking out a prom date. Nobody wants to be your second choice. They for sure don't want to be told they are your second choice. You are saying #2 like that's a good thing, whereas what is heard on the other end of the conversation is "not my first choice". So you are always better off saying something like you "loved the program and plan to rank it very highly" or something similarly vague which sounds like it could potentially be #1 but you haven't decided yet. That's always better. I think if you say anything more specific, it sounds like "not my #1 choice" regardless of how you mean it. And you may end up dancing alone at the prom.

 

[ResidentMD]

Matching is a lot like asking out a prom date. Nobody wants to be your second choice. They for sure don't want to be told they are your second choice. You are saying #2 like that's a good thing, whereas what is heard on the other end of the conversation is "not my first choice". So you are always better off saying something like you "loved the program and plan to rank it very highly" or something similarly vague which sounds like it could potentially be #1 but you haven't decided yet. That's always better. I think if you say anything more specific, it sounds like "not my #1 choice" regardless of how you mean it. And you may end up dancing alone at the prom.

Concur.

 

[patch28]

Thanks for the great responses, everyone. I have avoided a potentially fatal mistake.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Need help deciphering. I emailed a PD saying "you're my #1" with some other questions... in the response, after answering my questions, the PD said "I would look forward to working with you in the future." Somewhat competitive program. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

"would" gives the conditional nuance of *if* I match there.

and furthermore, I guess it might be interpreted as a jerk-ish thing to do if the PD didn't say ANYTHING in the response email acknowledging my "rank #1" tidbit.

I got a good vibe on the interview day, but obviously you never know with competitive programs.

I hate the nuanced terminology of the match.

Oh, and I also got a "ranked to match" email from a fairly crappy hospital... it's like that ugly person who tells you they think you're hot, but you're not sure how to respond. how should I respond?! The program director was so nice but I would barf if I ended up there after working so hard in medical school.

 

[Keg]

Need help deciphering. I emailed a PD saying "you're my #1" with some other questions... in the response, after answering my questions, the PD said "I would look forward to working with you in the future." Somewhat competitive program. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

"would" gives the conditional nuance of *if* I match there.

and furthermore, I guess it might be interpreted as a jerk-ish thing to do if the PD didn't say ANYTHING in the response email acknowledging my "rank #1" tidbit.

I got a good vibe on the interview day, but obviously you never know with competitive programs.

I hate the nuanced terminology of the match.

Oh, and I also got a "ranked to match" email from a fairly crappy hospital... it's like that ugly person who tells you they think you're hot, but you're not sure how to respond. how should I respond?! The program director was so nice but I would barf if I ended up there after working so hard in medical school.

Personally, I'd still rank that first program first and see what happens. If you haven't had someone call, have them call; otherwise, there's nothing more to do. As to the second email, "my momma always said, 'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.'" So no response would probably be fine, especially if you don't want to train there.

As an aside, to the point of the thread, I was agonizing over having my PD or chair call my #1 program, because my home program is my #2. After talking to the dean who advises us, she said, "I promise, it will not affect your chances here - they will be excited that they're second." So maybe it just depends on your program's gestalt on these things, but I was told not to worry (as above).

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Need help deciphering. I emailed a PD saying "you're my #1" with some other questions... in the response, after answering my questions, the PD said "I would look forward to working with you in the future." Somewhat competitive program. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

"would" gives the conditional nuance of *if* I match there.

and furthermore, I guess it might be interpreted as a jerk-ish thing to do if the PD didn't say ANYTHING in the response email acknowledging my "rank #1" tidbit.

I got a good vibe on the interview day, but obviously you never know with competitive programs.

I hate the nuanced terminology of the match.

Oh, and I also got a "ranked to match" email from a fairly crappy hospital... it's like that ugly person who tells you they think you're hot, but you're not sure how to respond. how should I respond?! The program director was so nice but I would barf if I ended up there after working so hard in medical school.

There is no use in trying to decipher it. Rank how you want to rank, then wait and try not to let your neuroses get the better of you in the meantime.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Personally, I'd still rank that first program first and see what happens. If you haven't had someone call, have them call; otherwise, there's nothing more to do. As to the second email, "my momma always said, 'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.'" So no response would probably be fine, especially if you don't want to train there.

As an aside, to the point of the thread, I was agonizing over having my PD or chair call my #1 program, because my home program is my #2. After talking to the dean who advises us, she said, "I promise, it will not affect your chances here - they will be excited that they're second." So maybe it just depends on your program's gestalt on these things, but I was told not to worry (as above).

Thanks... I totally wondered whether the PD was being polite, whether that was a strong indication that they love me, or what. As for having someone call, I haven't done that yet. Have just 1 person call or more? Chair->Chair, or Chair->PD, or Dean->PD, home PD (who supports whatever we do and is well known)->other PD, etc.?? Ugh. I guess I also don't want to come across as a desperate loser. Who did you eventually decide to ask to make that call? I guess in my situation, my dean is also an option in addition to chair and PD.

 

[MrBurns10]

Thanks... I totally wondered whether the PD was being polite, whether that was a strong indication that they love me, or what. As for having someone call, I haven't done that yet. Have just 1 person call or more? Chair->Chair, or Chair->PD, or Dean->PD, home PD (who supports whatever we do and is well known)->other PD, etc.?? Ugh. I guess I also don't want to come across as a desperate loser. Who did you eventually decide to ask to make that call? I guess in my situation, my dean is also an option in addition to chair and PD.

If your home program is up there on your rank list and you're afraid having the chair or PD of your department call your #1, then I would opt for having a dean/advisor/mentor from another department call on your behalf. Honestly, it'll still have an impact and you won't risk alienating your home program.

 

[Keg]

Thanks... I totally wondered whether the PD was being polite, whether that was a strong indication that they love me, or what. As for having someone call, I haven't done that yet. Have just 1 person call or more? Chair->Chair, or Chair->PD, or Dean->PD, home PD (who supports whatever we do and is well known)->other PD, etc.?? Ugh. I guess I also don't want to come across as a desperate loser. Who did you eventually decide to ask to make that call? I guess in my situation, my dean is also an option in addition to chair and PD.

I asked the dean who advises us on these things, and she said to ask the chair to call... and after emailing him, his reply said that the PD usually handles these things so they'll discuss who should get in touch with my #1 program to help me out. Didn't sound like they felt alienated, but your results may vary.

 

[thedrjojo]

I just recently emailed the PD at my home school which happens to be #1 right now, essentially telling him "your number 1", even though I have had pretty good assurances that I will be "ranked to match" from them, just because I don't want them to get any ideas that I wouldn't want to come there (talking to the Program Coordinator a month or so ago, she stated something like she thought she heard I wanted to move away, which is totally wrong because I only applyed in the area... so you gotta make sure the information about you out there is correct). His response was a personal one (I did have like 1 question for him) but still, when it came to ranking, it was very generic: "I would be honored to be a participant in your development into a well-trained and competent surgeon". It is all a horse and pony show, and you gotta do what you gotta do...

My mentor here has been very helpful, offered to make calls (and the PD/Chair at my was #1 before secondlook place said, have Dr. x or Dr. Chairman give us a call if you are still interested, and PD at my #2 did research at fellowship with him, so his calls are useful). If you have a mentor as well, they might be someone worth tapping into for calls as well. Just my 2 cents

 

[midwest77]

do you HAVE to have someone call for you to your number one program. I've gotten an email from the program director (generic stuff) and I emailed him telling him they are my number 1. Is that enough? I didn't know program directors called programs for you?

 

[thedrjojo]

calls don't hurt, some might be a little useful, but i think in general they aren't going to change too much. And it really depends on your relationship with someone and their own personal stuff... i dont think the chair at my school would have made any calls, but my mentor offered to make calls for me... i would tread lightly with the PD/Chair of your home program if it is somewhere you are considering highly, because you might turn them off of you if you ask them to call for you...

 

[tarlovcyst]

I've read multiple threads about telling your top program that they are number 1. I've read the guidelines on the NRMP about what can and can not be said by each party in the match, so I am fammiliar with the limits. I've also read about debating phraseology about "will rank you highly" or "near the top of my list". However, I am curious about telling program number two, specifically.

I love both of my top two programs. Program 1 gets top spot because I like the town slightly more than the other town, though I would be very happy in either. I want to tell my 2nd program, in no uncertain terms, that I love the program, it is number two, and just barely not number one. I mentioned this to some of my fellow med students, and they all thought it was a very bad idea, but, to me, telling a program that it will be ranked "highly" or "near the top" already tells it that I'm not ranking it nunmber 1, and I think a very positive e-mail reiterating everything I love about the program could help me in its ranking.

Are there any PDs who would like to weigh in? Any former applicants who have done this, themselves? Many thanks for the advice.

Listen patch28, it is a bad idea, period. Nobody likes to hear that they are not #1, or that they are your backup because you didn't match at #1. I can make several analogies. This whole matching process is like you trying to find your soulmate. Interviewing is equivalent to dating, and you're trying to find your best fit. It looks like you found your best fit (or hottest soulmate) at a program 3 hours from you. Now, are you going to tell your second best "soulmate" that she/he is #2?? Your second best "soulmate" would be offended. Nobody wants to settle for less.

Though honest and well-meaning in your mind, it's just the way that it is that you should only tell one program that they are #1. All others are not.

 

[houstoncfh]

do you HAVE to have someone call for you to your number one program. I've gotten an email from the program director (generic stuff) and I emailed him telling him they are my number 1. Is that enough? I didn't know program directors called programs for you?

Usually it works best if the person who is making the call has a relationship with the program director at the program you want to go to.

Your best case scenario would be to set up a meeting with your chair, PD, or another faculty member who has ties to said program. Ideally, when you mention that you're interested in X program, the person at your program will make some reference to knowing the program leadership. At that point, it's a pretty easy sell to get them to make a call.

What's ideal about this is that your #1 program gets a phone call from someone they already know, and it becomes much easier to decipher the applicant's intent. I think PD's have a slight twinge of doubt when they get a "you're #1" email -- they just have to know that there's a remote possibility that you could be morally bankrupt and sending this email everywhere. Having a faculty member go to bat for you allays this fear.

I'm not sure about the utility of having a PD or chair cold call someone they don't know. I guess it wouldn't hurt, but is it really all that different from sending an additional letter of rec?

 

[tarlovcyst]

do you HAVE to have someone call for you to your number one program. I've gotten an email from the program director (generic stuff) and I emailed him telling him they are my number 1. Is that enough? I didn't know program directors called programs for you?

You don't HAVE to have somebody call for you. The call is just an extra or bonus, if available. Usually, PDs or the medicine chairman, if well known, will make the call on your behalf to your #1 choice. Applicants can email and send letters all they want to their #1 choices, but in the end (as I mentioned before), there are two types of applicants who do this in my experience -- (1) genuine students who really are ranking a place #1, or (2) dishonest students that are more desperate and tell five programs that they are all #1. Either way, I will find out because all regional PDs know each other. PDs also know each other from across the country, because we have national meetings annually. When someone calls for you, he/she puts their reputation on the line to tell a program they are #1 and then that someone will try to sell you. When a PD or chairman calls me on your behalf, to me, it means more than as if you sent me a letter telling me you're #1.

Again, you don't need someone to call on your behalf. Often, it is completely school dependent. If your PD or chairman is well known, or if they know the PD at another program, then it would help a lot. More often than not, these phone calls are offered more when the subspecialty is smaller -- urology, dermatology, etc. Community is so small, compared to IM, that everyone knows each other.

The large majority of AMGs will match within their top 4 choices. 2009 NRMP stats show that this percentage is roughly 82%. So AMGs, think wisely about your top 5 when you rank.