Telling med school about children on secondary or during interview

[ahisma]

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I was wondering what are the pros/cons about sharing that I am a parent on my secondary or during interviews. Being completely honest, it's a huge part of who I am. I know that I am able to balance school and work and family but I am concerned some might see it as a potential liability.

 

[You're My Boy Blue]

Pros: You're responsible for a human life
Cons: The time commitment issue you proposed

 

[LizzyM]

Legally, we can't ask about it unless you bring it up first because there is the possibility of discrimination based on your status as a parent. Why even go there? Does having responsibility for a minor child make you a better student? I highly doubt it. Saying that you know that you can balance it all just shows hubris. I would strongly urge you not to mention this in the secondaries and interview.

 

[VegasPreMed]

Legally, we can't ask about it unless you bring it up first because there is the possibility of discrimination based on your status as a parent. Why even go there? Does having responsibility for a minor child make you a better student? I highly doubt it. Saying that you know that you can balance it all just shows hubris. I would strongly urge you not to mention this in the secondaries and interview.

Really? Bummer. I mentioned it in secondaries. For the last two years, my wife and I have both been in school full time (including summer school), both worked 20-30 hours a week while raising a five year old, and I was volunteering. I kept a 3.8 during that time. That's not something I should have mentioned?

 

[Leslie_Knope]

Legally, we can't ask about it unless you bring it up first because there is the possibility of discrimination based on your status as a parent. Why even go there? Does having responsibility for a minor child make you a better student? I highly doubt it. Saying that you know that you can balance it all just shows hubris. I would strongly urge you not to mention this in the secondaries and interview.

I respectfully respond that you would go there because it can account for what you have been doing with your free time. Additionally, do you (applicant) really want to go to a school that would reject you for this?

N=1 I talked about infertility and being a parent in my PS, secondaries, and interviews. I was accepted, and then withdrew from remaining schools so I don't know how I would have done at the other two schools I had IIs from.

 

[doc05]

don't mention it. it's not interesting and is a potential liability. nobody cares about your children (except you).

 

[DreamingDoc]

I respectfully respond that you would go there because it can account for what you have been doing with your free time. Additionally, do you (applicant) really want to go to a school that would reject you for this?

N=1 I talked about infertility and being a parent in my PS, secondaries, and interviews. I was accepted, and then withdrew from remaining schools so I don't know how I would have done at the other two schools I had IIs from.

The bolded part was my main reason for mentioning that I was a parent when I went through the application process. While the schools may not legally be able to ask your status as a parent, you probably should be asking questions to gauge how well you'll be able to thrive as a student and a parent (ie how family friendly the school is, will they let you out of mandatory lectures if an issue arises with your child, do they allow children on campus if you need to bring them, etc). I'm not sure I agree that having a child won't make you a better student, but if you decide to attend a school that hinders your ability to balance these two important aspects, it could lead to you possibly not being able to perform as well. Just my 2 cents.

 

[tunicaexterna]

 

[DokterMom]

If you've got a demonstrated track record of balancing a highly demanding work load (with a high degree of success) with caring for children, then you'd mitigate the "damage" done by admitting that your priorities are, of necessity, divided. If you choose to talk about your child[ren] do also mention your multi-layered support network and how your experience coordinating the 'village' demonstrates your flexibility, leadership, team-orientation, etc. But still, a high-risk decision.

@Leslie_Knope brings up some good observations, as does @VegasPreMed. But frankly, for a father, being an involved parent is a plus that demonstrates maturity; for a mother, it's a 'time-suck.' Don't think that 'the mommy track' is a thing of the past, because most assuredly, it isn't.

 

[mathnerd88]

Wow. So the life experience of a parent counts for nothing? It's good to know that what the diversity essay really means is "What different life experience do you have that fits one these trendy diversity topics: race, religion (non-Christian), international travel, LGBT, art, or music?" Which have as little to do with being a good doctor or student as being a parent (unless you're in a major city, and the real shortage of doctors is actually in rural areas where a 35 year old having their first child is crazy)

"Possibility" of discrimination? I will be discriminated against according to your post. Being a successful parent before med school doesn't show that I can balance my home life and work? When will I learn how to do that? When should I have started a family? Six years from now when I'm in the middle of residency working 80 hour weeks? I'm sure being an attending physician is so much less stressful and time intensive than being a med student, maybe that's when.

Having that built in constant support system has made me a better at everything I've done from the military to school. I'm going to make sure I mention them in every interview so I don't go to a school composed of people who think like LizzyM.

The problem with mentioning you have a child just opens more doors of a possibility that you won't be able to balance both medical school and raising a child. Each semester in medical school is equivalent to over 40 credits (more than twice the amount of college classes per semester, sometimes 3 times.) In order to become a full-time student you just need only 12 credits per semester.

Schools want to know you can balance both, and realistically, it may be impossible to balance both medical school and raising kids. You may have to hire a nanny or a babysitter, or in the cases I've seen, have the grandparents usually raising the child.

I'm not saying this is impossible, but it just opens more doors for liability, and it may not be beneficial. I believe that was what LizzyM was trying to say. If it doesn't help your application, it would only hurt. I would not mention it in my interviews nor my application.

Medical school and residency is a completely different animal than working 40 hour work weeks. Your original post was right; some people may consider it as a potential liability. Why put it on your application if it is a potential liability?

 

[calisurfer19]

Legally, we can't ask about it unless you bring it up first because there is the possibility of discrimination based on your status as a parent. Why even go there? Does having responsibility for a minor child make you a better student? I highly doubt it. Saying that you know that you can balance it all just shows hubris. I would strongly urge you not to mention this in the secondaries and interview.

Ma'am thank you for being so forthright. Unfortunately I did mention that I had a child on a few of the secondaries that I've submitted so far, and I did indicate I have a dependent on my primary app. That being said, if this happens to be brought up during any interviews in an attempt to rattle me a bit by pitting the responsibilities I have as a parent against those I will have as medical student, how would you recommend I respond? I was thinking something along the lines of "recognizing the need to focus more on spending quality time vs. quantity with my child". Any insight would be most appreciated, thank you.

 

[Leslie_Knope]

Ma'am thank you for being so forthright. Unfortunately I did mention that I had a child on a few of the secondaries that I've submitted so far, and I did indicate I have a dependent on my primary app. That being said, if this happens to be brought up during any interviews in an attempt to rattle me a bit by pitting the responsibilities I have as a parent against those I will have as medical student, how would you recommend I respond? I was thinking something along the lines of "recognizing the need to focus more on spending quality time vs. quantity with my child". Any insight would be most appreciated, thank you.

Talk about your support system. They want to know who is going to take care of your kid when he is sick with the measles and it's time for you to prep for Step 1.

 

[ski89]

Legally, we can't ask about it unless you bring it up first because there is the possibility of discrimination based on your status as a parent. Why even go there? Does having responsibility for a minor child make you a better student? I highly doubt it. Saying that you know that you can balance it all just shows hubris. I would strongly urge you not to mention this in the secondaries and interview.

I also respectfully disagree. Of course having the responsibilities of a parent can make you a better student (more at stake if you fail for example). But more importantly, it can make you a better physician which is what med schools really want. Parents have felt the responsibility of caring for another individual, very similar to a physician.

Now to be sure, the time commitment is even worse for a mother (assuming the father in question is not a single father). Any mention of parenthood should definately include a reference to your support system and help you can expect during med school.

For me personally, I used it as one of my "most significant" experiences in my primary app. It seems to me it was taken very well since I got many positive comments about it.

I think the point is that if you mention it, you just need to be cognizant of the types of things ADCOMs are looking for and the things they get worried about, and compose a well thought out essay accordingly.

don't mention it. it's not interesting and is a potential liability. nobody cares about your children (except you).

They may not care personally for your children, but I was told at all my interviews that it was one of the most interesting and unique things about me... So take that for what it's worth.

 

[calisurfer19]

Wow. So the life experience of a parent counts for nothing? It's good to know that what the diversity essay really means is "What different life experience do you have that fits one these trendy diversity topics: race, religion (non-Christian), international travel, LGBT, art, or music?" Which have as little to do with being a good doctor or student as being a parent (unless you're in a major city, and the real shortage of doctors is actually in rural areas where a 35 year old having their first child is crazy)

"Possibility" of discrimination? I will be discriminated against according to your post. Being a successful parent before med school doesn't show that I can balance my home life and work? When will I learn how to do that? When should I have started a family? Six years from now when I'm in the middle of residency working 80 hour weeks? I'm sure being an attending physician is so much less stressful and time intensive than being a med student, maybe that's when.

Having that built in constant support system has made me a better at everything I've done from the military to school. I'm going to make sure I mention them in every interview so I don't go to a school composed of people who think like LizzyM.

Take a deep breath and try to understand what an ADCOM's responsibilities entail (trailing off for effect)... Also think of the military adage "if we wanted you to have a family, we would've issued it to you". Is there that much of a difference? It may seem calloused that being a parent can be seen as a reproachable offense, but what can you do besides demonstrate you're up to the challenge? I believe @DokterMom and @Leslie_Knope described the best ways to address and assuage any doubts an ADCOM may have. Thank you both for your responses.

 

[Gandyy]

LizzyM has given her opinion. Bashing her opinion wont change how she thinks or how the adcoms who are actually going to be interviewing you guys and gals think.

I actually agree with you parents on this one.

But thats just how it is. Gotta deal with it. Some adcoms may agree with you and some may think like LizzyM. Either way, the whole process is a crapshoot.

 

[medic86]

Take a deep breath and try to understand what an ADCOM's responsibilities entail (trailing off for effect)... Also think of the military adage "if we wanted you to have a family, we would've issued it to you". Is there that much of a difference? It may seem calloused that being a parent can be seen as a reproachable offense, but what can you do besides demonstrate you're up to the challenge? I believe @DokterMom and @Leslie_Knope described the best ways to address and assuage any doubts an ADCOM may have. Thank you both for your responses.

Lol.

That adage is patently untrue.

 

[steelersfan1243]

Wow. So the life experience of a parent counts for nothing? It's good to know that what the diversity essay really means is "What different life experience do you have that fits one these trendy diversity topics: race, religion (non-Christian), international travel, LGBT, art, or music?" Which have as little to do with being a good doctor or student as being a parent (unless you're in a major city, and the real shortage of doctors is actually in rural areas where a 35 year old having their first child is crazy)

"Possibility" of discrimination? I will be discriminated against according to your post. Being a successful parent before med school doesn't show that I can balance my home life and work? When will I learn how to do that? When should I have started a family? Six years from now when I'm in the middle of residency working 80 hour weeks? I'm sure being an attending physician is so much less stressful and time intensive than being a med student, maybe that's when.

Having that built in constant support system has made me a better at everything I've done from the military to school. I'm going to make sure I mention them in every interview so I don't go to a school composed of people who think like LizzyM.

I don't think LizzyM thinks being a parent means you won't be able to pass medical school. Its the matter of fact that LizzyM and other ADCOMS at selective colleges, are not just looking for people to pass medical school, but excel in it. Being a parent while in medical school is a time sink and whether you like it or not, will hinder progress.

On another side note, if you watch Shark Tank, this situation comes up all the time. Mark Cuban is always reluctant to invest in ideas where the person has another part time job. Even if the entrepreneur has shown the capability to split their time between the two businesses well, there is going to be someone else who can focus on the new idea 24/7 and beat them to the punch. Same concept applies to medical school

 

[NickNaylor]

Wow. So the life experience of a parent counts for nothing? It's good to know that what the diversity essay really means is "What different life experience do you have that fits one these trendy diversity topics: race, religion (non-Christian), international travel, LGBT, art, or music?" Which have as little to do with being a good doctor or student as being a parent (unless you're in a major city, and the real shortage of doctors is actually in rural areas where a 35 year old having their first child is crazy)

"Possibility" of discrimination? I will be discriminated against according to your post. Being a successful parent before med school doesn't show that I can balance my home life and work? When will I learn how to do that? When should I have started a family? Six years from now when I'm in the middle of residency working 80 hour weeks? I'm sure being an attending physician is so much less stressful and time intensive than being a med student, maybe that's when.

Having that built in constant support system has made me a better at everything I've done from the military to school. I'm going to make sure I mention them in every interview so I don't go to a school composed of people who think like LizzyM.

One might make the argument that having a child and successfully caring for it is simply the responsibility of being a parent, not indicative of anything outstanding apart from maturity. I see where you're coming from, but no one is going to bow at your feet because you successfully raised your child. If you have a sibling, you don't get any bonus points for not beating on your brother/sister or for being a good mentor to them. That's just part of the "job." I have yet to see anyone discuss their relationship with their siblings as a proxy for their character, for example.

I think your rage is misplaced. You might disagree with what was said, but that doesn't really make it any more or less true.

 

[genericpremedstudent]

nobody cares about your children (except you).

this applies to every situation ever

 

[calisurfer19]

Lol.

That adage is patently untrue.

Yes of course it is. However I was trying to ease the tension and lighten (guessing by the username) her mood by sacrastically joking about something she could relate this situation to.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm a parent in med school. It is an academic liability. In the coldest terms they are a distraction from studying and crunch your budget in a way that adds stress. The only possible way to maybe swing it as a possibility is that you literally can't afford to mess up because it would destroy their childhood financially....but that's like making, "this mobster will shoot me if I wash out" a positive. I mentioned it but looking back I wouldn't again. It might have cost me some interviews and I wasn't a strong enough applicant to flaunt the "if they don't love my kids, I don't want to be there" line. I just needed someone to give me a shot and it was a bad tactical move to mention anything that might be a liability.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm a parent in med school. It is an academic liability. In the coldest terms they are a distraction from studying and crunch your budget in a way that adds stress. The only possible way to maybe swing it as a possibility is that you literally can't afford to mess up because it would destroy their childhood financially....but that's like making, "this mobster will shoot me if I wash out" a positive. I mentioned it but looking back I wouldn't again. It might have cost me some interviews and I wasn't a strong enough applicant to flaunt the "if they don't love my kids, I don't want to be there" line. I just needed someone to give me a shot and it was a bad tactical move to mention anything that might be a liability.

Thanks for that affirmation of my point which is not that parents make bad medical students or that you shouldn't go to med shcool if you have kids. The point is that certain things are better left out of your application if there is any likelihood that it may be held against you. Some applicants leave out activities that would reveal their religion or political affiliation or sexual orientation. If it is important enough to you that you are willing to take a chance that someone may, even subconsciously, put you down for something like that, then go ahead and list it but my general suggestion is that you pick your battles and recognize that obligations and responsibilities outside of school can be seen as a liability that is different than the diversity you bring to a class that does not make demands on your time the way kids do.

Also, be humble. Don't proclaim, "I know I can handle it." Life is unpredictable. You hope you can handle it. Be clear about your support system. Recognize that in the unlikely event of a serious situation, you may need to take a leave of absence. Better to do so early in the situation before things get bad academically than to try to tough it out because "you can handle it" and then find yourself before the promotions committee deciding whether you should be allowed to advance or if you will be required to repeat a year.

 

[mimelim]

I respectfully respond that you would go there because it can account for what you have been doing with your free time. Additionally, do you (applicant) really want to go to a school that would reject you for this?

N=1 I talked about infertility and being a parent in my PS, secondaries, and interviews. I was accepted, and then withdrew from remaining schools so I don't know how I would have done at the other two schools I had IIs from.

The bolded part was my main reason for mentioning that I was a parent when I went through the application process. While the schools may not legally be able to ask your status as a parent, you probably should be asking questions to gauge how well you'll be able to thrive as a student and a parent (ie how family friendly the school is, will they let you out of mandatory lectures if an issue arises with your child, do they allow children on campus if you need to bring them, etc). I'm not sure I agree that having a child won't make you a better student, but if you decide to attend a school that hinders your ability to balance these two important aspects, it could lead to you possibly not being able to perform as well. Just my 2 cents.

No school is going to reject you for having a child. Further, schools are made up of thousands of people from students to faculty to staff and everyone in between. No school is going to be perfect and there are going to be people that think that having children while going through medical school and residency will be a hindrance to your academic potential. Yes. You do want to go to a school that might see having a child as a negative. Would it be better to go to a more understanding school? Yes. Of course. But, every campus has medical students who are parents and they make it work.

Wow. So the life experience of a parent counts for nothing? It's good to know that what the diversity essay really means is "What different life experience do you have that fits one these trendy diversity topics: race, religion (non-Christian), international travel, LGBT, art, or music?" Which have as little to do with being a good doctor or student as being a parent (unless you're in a major city, and the real shortage of doctors is actually in rural areas where a 35 year old having their first child is crazy)

"Possibility" of discrimination? I will be discriminated against according to your post. Being a successful parent before med school doesn't show that I can balance my home life and work? When will I learn how to do that? When should I have started a family? Six years from now when I'm in the middle of residency working 80 hour weeks? I'm sure being an attending physician is so much less stressful and time intensive than being a med student, maybe that's when.

Having that built in constant support system has made me a better at everything I've done from the military to school. I'm going to make sure I mention them in every interview so I don't go to a school composed of people who think like LizzyM.

Translation, "I want bonus points for having a kid". I had several classmates with children. Every single one of them had their productivity drop considerably after they had them. In medical school, their studying time decreased. Their sleep decreased etc. In residency, they stopped staying for late cases. They started treating it with more of a shift mentality and hurt their education. I'm not sure how having a child 'shows' that you have can maintain work-life balance, especially if you have never worked or been as busy as you will be in medical school and residency. Are there people that manage to continue on the same track to becoming physicians while having children along the way? Yes. Of course. But, let's not pretend that it doesn't significantly hamper one's academics. I can think of 3 people off the top of my head who went NSGY -> Derm, GS -> IM and Ortho -> FM directly because of the pressures of family.

You're right. Being assistant vice treasurer in the pre med club at your school tells the admission staff a lot more about your maturity and ability to treat people in the real world.

I know that you have this arrogance/hubris issue going on, but serious question, do you really think that adcoms as a whole are idiots? I know we aren't all as wise as you because not all of us have children, but most of us are rather good at picking future medical students and more important recognizing people who are at risk for not making it through.

 

[Trialsoot]

MS3 here. I absolutely recommend mentioning your experience as a parent. Part of the application process is you sorting between schools that are a good fit for you and those which aren't. I think it is important, as a parent, that you find schools which are willing to support you. I came to medical school with one child, and had one during medical school, and it has made a world of difference to have student affairs deans who have excused me from required academic activities when my second child was born and during other family crises.
Most schools have extensive experience with students who have successfully completed medical school with kids. I think it is to your benefit to be open in your secondaries/interviews so you can discern between schools that will be supportive and those that won't.

 

[Goro]

I'm a parent with two young kids and my answer your question is "not really". You might as well consider breathing as a life experience.

We've never, ever considered parental status as either a plus or a minus in our Adcom meetings.

Showing you're good at walking and chewing gum is by having good grades and all the other stuff med school applicants are supposed to do (work, research, ECs).

BTW, we've had single moms as students, and moms or dads with kids living apart from the family.

Wow. So the life experience of a parent counts for nothing? It's good to know that what the diversity essay really means is "What different life experience do you have that fits one these trendy diversity topics: race, religion (non-Christian), international travel, LGBT, art, or music?" Which have as little to do with being a good doctor or student as being a parent (unless you're in a major city, and the real shortage of doctors is actually in rural areas where a 35 year old having their first child is crazy)

 

[steelersfan1243]

MS3 here. I absolutely recommend mentioning your experience as a parent. Part of the application process is you sorting between schools that are a good fit for you and those which aren't. I think it is important, as a parent, that you find schools which are willing to support you. I came to medical school with one child, and had one during medical school, and it has made a world of difference to have student affairs deans who have excused me from required academic activities when my second child was born and during other family crises.
Most schools have extensive experience with students who have successfully completed medical school with kids. I think it is to your benefit to be open in your secondaries/interviews so you can discern between schools that will be supportive and those that won't.

I read the bolded as cruises and had an instantaneous moment where I thought, "Dang, I need start a family"

 

[Spector1]

I wouldnt mention it. The only thing it really tells me is that there are priorities in your life more important than med school (eg spouse, family, kids etc) that might cause you to potentially drop out of med school and waste your seat.

 

[Azete]

I've conducted hundreds of interviews in another profession, and I can say it goes both ways. A single parent that consistently mentions their child is someone that raises a red flag, because it comes off as desperation -- someone that needs the job, as opposed to really wanting it. Most of the positions mandated 70+ hour work weeks, and while the time sink of a child was a consideration I can also say that aspect didn't affect the decision making process as much as the true motivation for their career choice. Let's be honest, though; an employer does not want to deal with you being MIA for several days due to a sick child if it's very time sensitive work. So making clear mention of your support system is also of vital importance.

On occasion, though, I have seen it significantly benefit an applicant if it was presented the right way. Someone with a spouse, and a child, and has already seen success in other jobs, definitely presents as a more mature and stable person than a bachelor that recently graduated. I've also seen people change when they have children, and as a result develop a new-found motivation on life which can be an asset if utilized correctly.

Bottom line: As a general rule I would say it's more trouble than it's worth to mention it, but in the right circumstances it can be done in a way that will help your application. If you're a single parent, though, I would not mention it in a "look at me juggle!" kind of way. Broken homes are not seen as impressive, no matter how harsh that sounds.

 

[Gandyy]

First off, I apologize for coming off so angry last night.

Secondly, the silly offhand treasurer comment was in reply to a premed and not directed at any adcoms.

I fully agree with you that kids are a time sink, but your classmates had kids while they were med students and didn't have any experience handling it. Having a child "shows" that I can maintain a good balance because I was successful in a job that was at least as stressful as med school. I need to relax and take a deep breath, because like you said ADCOMs are not dumb and they will look at my whole application.

It just seems to me that all the pre med stuff is so silly and superficial "I volunteered at the free clinic twice a month, I now understand the plight of the poor ...." "I spent a semester studying in south america and my experience with different cultures will make me a better...." "Playing club baseball taught me about leadership and teamwork..." It feels like bringing up your family should be pretty natural in an application. I'm not saying it should help you but we talk about so many little things it seems crazy not to bring it up.

Sorry again for coming off so hot yesterday!

I was in agreement with you but this is off putting.

Raising children is a job that requires immense responsibility but you are underestimating the difficulty of medical school.

Also, since you aren't actually IN medical school, you cannot say that your job is AT LEAST AS STRESSFUL AS MED SCHOOL.

Understand how ridiculous your claim is.

 

[Gandyy]

Ahh sorry, I wasn't claiming raising kids was harder than med school. I was in the Army for five years with children, which I'm pretty comfortable saying was at least as stressful as med school. 😉 At least I'm not the angry guy anymore....haha

Ah I see. Fair enough.

 

[Azete]

First off, I apologize for coming off so angry last night.

Secondly, the silly offhand treasurer comment was in reply to a premed and not directed at any adcoms.

I fully agree with you that kids are a time sink, but your classmates had kids while they were med students and didn't have any experience handling it. Having a child "shows" that I can maintain a good balance because I was successful in a job that was at least as stressful as med school while raising them. I need to relax and take a deep breath, because like you said ADCOMs are not dumb and they will look at my whole application.

It just seems to me that all the pre med stuff is so silly and superficial "I volunteered at the free clinic twice a month, I now understand the plight of the poor ...." "I spent a semester studying in south america and my experience with different cultures will make me a better...." "Playing club baseball taught me about leadership and teamwork..." It feels like bringing up your family should be pretty natural in an application. I'm not saying it should help you but we talk about so many little things it seems crazy not to bring it up.

My experience with kids seems to be a cultural touchstone with the patients I see in my current clinical job.

Sorry again for coming off so hot yesterday!

This. In so many ways.

The superficial extracurriculars that somehow feign altruism or real life experience has always been humorous to me. ADCOMs are smart people, they can't really be impressed by this nonsense, can they?

Also, someone that has a family and doesn't view/mention them as a major part of their life is probably not the type of human being you want as a doctor anyway. Finding a sociopath that can ignore their family for 4+ years may result in some great test scores, but eventually the guy has to, you know, treat people.

 

[doc05]

You're right. Being assistant vice treasurer in the pre med club at your school tells the admission staff a lot more about your maturity and ability to treat people in the real world.

First off, I apologize for coming off so angry last night.

Secondly, the silly offhand treasurer comment was in reply to a premed and not directed at any adcoms.

I haven't been a premed in many years. And while I'm not on an adcom, I have been involved in selection of residents, fellows, and I stand by my prior remark - nobody wants to hear about your kids. Ignore my good advice if you like.

 

[NickNaylor]

This. In so many ways.

The superficial extracurriculars that somehow feign altruism or real life experience has always been humorous to me. ADCOMs are smart people, they can't really be impressed by this nonsense, can they?

Also, someone that has a family and doesn't view/mention them as a major part of their life is probably not the type of human being you want as a doctor anyway. Finding a sociopath that can ignore their family for 4+ years may result in some great test scores, but eventually the guy has to, you know, treat people.

Joke's on you: you will likely be ignoring your family for 4+ years whether you "can" or not.

 

[Azete]

Joke's on you: you will likely be ignoring your family for 4+ years whether you "can" or not.

While I certainly respect your opinion, I've worked many 100 hour weeks; if someone can't find an hour in their day to eat dinner with their family, they're doing it wrong.

There's an element of sacrifice in medicine, sure, just like many other professions, but hard work and family time do not have to be mutually exclusive. After all, I see plenty of med students, residents, etc. at the local bars on weekends.

 

[mimelim]

First off, I apologize for coming off so angry last night.

Secondly, the silly offhand treasurer comment was in reply to a premed and not directed at any adcoms.

I fully agree with you that kids are a time sink, but your classmates had kids while they were med students and didn't have any experience handling it. Having a child "shows" that I can maintain a good balance because I was successful in a job that was at least as stressful as med school while raising them. I need to relax and take a deep breath, because like you said ADCOMs are not dumb and they will look at my whole application.

It just seems to me that all the pre med stuff is so silly and superficial "I volunteered at the free clinic twice a month, I now understand the plight of the poor ...." "I spent a semester studying in south america and my experience with different cultures will make me a better...." "Playing club baseball taught me about leadership and teamwork..." It feels like bringing up your family should be pretty natural in an application. I'm not saying it should help you but we talk about so many little things it seems crazy not to bring it up.

My experience with kids seems to be a cultural touchstone with the patients I see in my current clinical job.

Sorry again for coming off so hot yesterday!

Yes, there are a fair number of idiotic pre-med activities and the associated pre-meds that think that they had a 'profound' experience after a semester of doing something. At the same time, there are a fair number of students that do quite substantial things with their time. It also does make a difference if you have those background experiences. The more we look at residency matching, the more we realized how much smarter (book smarts) students are. But, how they lack communication skills, teamwork, common sense, etc. That coupled with an average elevated sense of entitlement makes for a very difficult time figuring out who is going to survive vs. excel. Those ECs, while incredibly difficult to interpret, give a window into what is behind the student. That guy living in a Lebanese refugee camp teaching English and Mathematics during their gap year or working with Big Brother Big Sister through undergrad is going to be more and more attractive as time goes on.

I have no doubts that parenthood changes you and likely for the better. But, it also saddles you with responsibility. A huge responsibility. And while some can juggle it with something as demanding as medicine, many can not and many will not perform at the level they are used to or achieve the same level of production that they are used to. It is a real concern. Not only for the school, but for the student.

While I certainly respect your opinion, I've worked many 100 hour weeks; if someone can't find an hour in their day to eat dinner with their family, they're doing it wrong.

There's an element of sacrifice in medicine, sure, just like many other professions, but hard work and family time do not have to be mutually exclusive. After all, I see plenty of med students, residents, etc. at the local bars on weekends.

I'm sorry, but the math simply doesn't work out. Working 100 hour weeks means working 14+ hour days. That means getting home at 7pm or later daily, assuming you are working 7 days a week. How you can get home in time for dinner every day doesn't really work.

Further, it is not always about the number of hours, but also the unpredictableness of the schedule. I was on call this weekend. I arrived at 5am Saturday and left at 11pm Saturday night (night float started at 5pm). I went home and woke up at 4:30am to be back at the hospital at 5am. I left at midnight the next day. I was "supposed" to be off at 5pm. But, at the end of the day, the patients come first. Concurrent emergencies, coupled with a busy service means that I did nothing but work and sleep. Monday morning, back to work at 6am. I didn't see my wife awake for a good 72 hours. I would complain, but my attending was working longer and harder than I was. He didn't go home and slept between cases in his office all weekend. He actually told me to go home Saturday night so that I would be better rested knowing that we were already backlogged and going to get hit hard again Sunday and finished up the case with the Junior resident.

Now, I am in one of the more demanding specialties. But, until you work 80-100 hours a week every week for several years in a row, it is hard to really try to talk down or diminish how hard it is to balance life and training.

 

[mimelim]

ps @NickNaylor is in a more 'lifestyle' specialties, and he is even he is saying the same thing...

 

[NickNaylor]

While I certainly respect your opinion, I've worked many 100 hour weeks; if someone can't find an hour in their day to eat dinner with their family, they're doing it wrong.

There's an element of sacrifice in medicine, sure, just like many other professions, but hard work and family time do not have to be mutually exclusive. After all, I see plenty of med students, residents, etc. at the local bars on weekends.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but the distinction is choosing one or two things to really dedicate yourself to rather than many. There is also the difference in medical school and residency where you will be taking your home work with you in addition to the hours you'll be spending in the hospital. There will always be more to read and study, which you will spend the amount of time necessary to achieve whatever your goals are. If you're spending time with the family, you're not doing a variety of other things (including stuff related to school/work). If you're going out to the bar, same deal.

But don't let me convince you otherwise. If eating dinner with the family for an hour a day counts as good family time, then I'm certainly not one to argue.

 

[Temerit]

I will be discriminated against according to your post. Being a successful parent before med school doesn't show that I can balance my home life and work?

So adcoms are just supposed to assume that you're a great parent? How the hell would they know? You could be the worst parent in the world in the world and there would be no way to tell.

 

[Azete]

I'm sorry, but the math simply doesn't work out. Working 100 hour weeks means working 14+ hour days. That means getting home at 7pm or later daily, assuming you are working 7 days a week. How you can get home in time for dinner every day doesn't really work.

Because coming home for an hour, and then returning to work is completely unheard of. Dinner could easily turn into breakfast, lunch, etc. -- the specificity of the hour wasn't even relevant to my point.

Now, I am in one of the more demanding specialties. But, until you work 80-100 hours a week every week for several years in a row, it is hard to really try to talk down or diminish how hard it is to balance life and training.

You're making poor assumptions here; I've probably worked more years on this schedule than you have.

If someone doesn't want to have a family and instead wants to focus on their career, more power to them. I would never try to diminish the achievements of people that genuinely work hard. I'm calling people that choose to ignore their families, or people that look down on colleagues that don't, bad human beings, and I mean that with the utmost disrespect. Long work hours is an excuse and a very bad one.

 

[NickNaylor]

Because coming home for an hour, and then returning to work is completely unheard of. Dinner could easily turn into breakfast, lunch, etc. -- the specificity of the hour wasn't even relevant to my point.

Depending on what you're doing in medicine (which would include most things), and particularly in an inpatient hospital setting or in a surgical setting, "coming home for an hour and returning to work" is not an option.

 

[Azete]

Depending on what you're doing in medicine (which would include most things), and particularly in an inpatient hospital setting or in a surgical setting, "coming home for an hour and returning to work" is not an option.

He was just challenging the math behind my claims in another profession, I wasn't speaking to medicine in particular.

 

[mimelim]

Because coming home for an hour, and then returning to work is completely unheard of. Dinner could easily turn into breakfast, lunch, etc. -- the specificity of the hour wasn't even relevant to my point.




You're making poor assumptions here; I've probably worked more years on this schedule than you have.

If someone doesn't want to have a family and instead wants to focus on their career, more power to them. I would never try to diminish the achievements of people that genuinely work hard. I'm calling people that choose to ignore their families, or people that look down on colleagues that don't, bad human beings, and I mean that with the utmost disrespect. Long work hours is an excuse and a very bad one.

He was just challenging the math behind my claims in another profession, I wasn't speaking to medicine in particular.

Okay, so the profession/job that you were talking about is not analogous to the training for medicine or the practice of medicine at all. Yet, that is the foundation of you bringing it up in the first place. 🙄 My bad, I assumed that if you were going to try to compare working another job and claiming that it was similar that it actually was similar. Glad we got that straightened out.

The point is that in medicine, sometimes your time is not your own. You will miss birthdays, holidays, weekends, etc. You can't pop home to see family just because. There are many surgical residents that will not see their children awake for a month straight because they are on night float and their children are in school/daycare.

 

[Azete]

Okay, so the profession/job that you were talking about is not analogous to the training for medicine or the practice of medicine at all. Yet, that is the foundation of you bringing it up in the first place. 🙄 My bad, I assumed that if you were going to try to compare working another job and claiming that it was similar that it actually was similar. Glad we got that straightened out.

The point is that in medicine, sometimes your time is not your own. You will miss birthdays, holidays, weekends, etc. You can't pop home to see family just because. There are many surgical residents that will not see their children awake for a month straight because they are on night float and their children are in school/daycare.

You're reaching here, friend; using extreme examples to make broad ranging conclusions.

Being on a particular shift for a finite amount of time does not dismiss the conduciveness of an entire profession to having a family, nor does it exempt someone from choosing to not spend time with their family when they are not working. Nobody works from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep every single day of their life, let's not make doctors out to be martyrs to excuse innate character deficiencies.

 

[Greenberg702]

You're reaching here, friend; using extreme examples to make broad ranging conclusions.

Being on a particular shift for a finite amount of time does not dismiss the conduciveness of an entire profession to having a family, nor does it exempt someone from choosing to not spend time with their family when they are not working. Nobody works from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep every single day of their life, let's not make doctors out to be martyrs to excuse innate character deficiencies.

You're arguing with people who have literally already gone through the process and graduated. I was skeptical before I began school but I can guarantee you that if you're aiming for a competitive specialty/program, you will be swamped with things to do, inevitably harming your family life. Medical school isn't shift work, you don't go to work and put in a finite number of hours before coming home. You keep studying and studying and it's the uncertainty and ever-mounting pile of things you could be going through that gets you. If you want a 250+ board score you'll be working like a dog and with a family in the picture it's going to get tight really quickly. How do I know? One of my best friends lives with his wife and 2 kids, (got a 3.9+ from Hopkins undergrad so he's a superstar student) and always talks about the difficulties of balancing both. It can be done, just not as easily and carefree as you're making it out to be and certainly not without significant sacrifices to your academics/career.

 

[catmario]

If a crew of experienced physicians and adcoms who could very well be reading your application tell you not to do something, you do not do that thing.
This is not rocket surgery.

 

[Goro]

Ahh, nothing like ignorance before bedtime. My students who have worked in hospice, in nursing homes, with AIDS patients, were in the military, all impressed the hell out of me.

Interestingly, the students who get accepted into my school never seem to have the box checking mentality. They love what they did and did what they loved. it came through at interviews and it comes through when you ask them after they're accepted when they have no reason to embellish.

Stats get you to the door, but ECs get you through. 4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen. and yes, we've seen them.

This. In so many ways.

The superficial extracurriculars that somehow feign altruism or real life experience has always been humorous to me. ADCOMs are smart people, they can't really be impressed by this nonsense, can they?

Also, someone that has a family and doesn't view/mention them as a major part of their life is probably not the type of human being you want as a doctor anyway. Finding a sociopath that can ignore their family for 4+ years may result in some great test scores, but eventually the guy has to, you know, treat people.

 

[Azete]

Ahh, nothing like ignorance before bedtime. My students who have worked in hospice, in nursing homes, with AIDS patients, were in the military, all impressed the hell out of me.

Interestingly, the students who get accepted into my school never seem to have the box checking mentality. They love what they did and did what they loved. it came through at interviews and it comes through when you ask them after they're accepted when they have no reason to embellish.

Stats get you to the door, but ECs get you through. 4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen. and yes, we've seen them.

The activities you listed are what I would consider genuinely impressive. I wasn't trying to be rude, but there are a lot of "box checkers" that get accepted to medical school as well.

 

[DokterMom]

Bumping this thread (that I made a fool of myself in by getting stupidly angry in) to throw in my experience from my now completed cycle. I wrote about my wife and children in every secondary I completed. I ended up getting 6 interviews this cycle and spoke about my family in every one. I went 6 for 6 in acceptances and now have some tough choices to make. I'm glad that I was upfront about having kids because I got a ton of great info about student-parent groups, local schools, and how other students with families balanced their time.

To be sure I had clear answers for how I planned to/knew I could handle being both a father and a med student and was prepared every time the questions were asked. In the end, my family is a huge part of who I am and why I'm here, and to have not spoken about them would not have presented the real me and would have weakened my personal narrative.

Congratulations! 6 for 6!

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

Funny, I remember when we would visit my Dad when he was a resident on weekend call. We would meet him in the cafeteria for 1/2 hour or 45 minutes my Mom would say. Given my dad would pretty much sleep when he was at home in his scrubs as a resident, he called the scrubs his jammies. When we went to the hospital public spaces or call rooms to spend a few minutes with him, we thought it was a fun place, because everyone was in their jammies!! It was a massive sleepover to us. That is how it worked, that my Mom was the one to make sure we got our Daddy time, even when he was on call. And this was the days before the 80 hour limits.

 

[ridethecliche]

Bumping this thread (that I made a fool of myself in by getting stupidly angry in) to throw in my experience from my now completed cycle. I wrote about my wife and children in every secondary I completed. I ended up getting 6 interviews this cycle and spoke about my family in every one. I went 6 for 6 in acceptances and now have some tough choices to make. I'm glad that I was upfront about having kids because I got a ton of great info about student-parent groups, local schools, and how other students with families balanced their time.

To be sure I had clear answers for how I planned to/knew I could handle being both a father and a med student and was prepared every time the questions were asked. In the end, my family is a huge part of who I am and why I'm here, and to have not spoken about them would not have presented the real me and would have weakened my personal narrative.

Not to diminish your accomplishment, because it's pretty awesome, but I'm genuinely curious if schools would have taken the same approach if you were a woman...