Terrible mistake, will get an institutional action after acceptance

[ImmunoLove]

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It's not like OP was getting an A/B/C for sure. He decided to risk it in order to not get a D. Couldn't his medical school rescind his acceptance for a D?

Ok so I guess the risk/reward makes more sense, but still man, DONT CHEAT. Even to avoid the D, the risk/reward doesn't make sense (let's forego the obvious fact it is unethical and may be an indication of one's personality trait etc). I think he might be able to talk his way out of getting his acceptance rescinded over a D honestly (or at least still be eligible at other schools) than committing an act of dishonesty.

 

[raiderette]

It's not like OP was getting an A/B/C for sure. He decided to risk it in order to not get a D. Couldn't his medical school rescind his acceptance for a D?

If the D had happened he could have worked with the school, taken the class again, etc. They may have still rescinded but the IA is so much worse.

 

[deleted245139]

As a general statement, as I sit 6 months from graduating residency, I think I can comfortably say that if anyone feels the need to cheat at any point and not put in the effort to really understand concepts, you're SOL. This isn't 8th grade math- the level of complexity we deal with daily requires this stuff to be ingrained in you. It needs to be mental muscle memory. I'm not talking about stuff like the specifics of the Krebs cycle... the concepts of all this are deep and intertwined.

Let this be a lesson to those who are early in this journey. Put the effort in now.... It pays dividends in the end.

 

[ciruji]

Just wondering, if some random friend sends me this by surprise, I'm still f****d?

 

[lalex]

Ok so I guess the risk/reward makes more sense, but still man, DONT CHEAT. Even to avoid the D, the risk/reward doesn't make sense (let's forego the obvious fact it is unethical and may be an indication of one's personality trait etc). I think he might be able to talk his way out of getting his acceptance rescinded over a D honestly (or at least still be eligible at other schools) than committing an act of dishonesty.

I completely understand that an IA is way worse than getting an acceptance taken away. Just like I've gotten many bad grades in classes that I could have cheated in. Yes, it makes the journey longer, but it's still possible.

I just think that's where the desperation came from.

 

[lalex]

Just wondering, if some random friend sends me this by surprise, I'm still f****d?

I asked the same question. I don't think he'd be ****ed. Unless he could get in trouble for not reporting it? But they didn't find him through his text messages, it was the emails that did it.

And how stupid is his friend for sending it to so many people? What an idiot.

 

[deleted480308]

Just wondering, if some random friend sends me this by surprise, I'm still f****d?

if the school found out before you reported it? absolutely

 

[lalex]

if the school found out before you reported it? absolutely

Really? Because many people told me not to report a cheating incident in class on SDN. Right @Affiche

 

[deleted480308]

Really? Because many people told me not to report a cheating incident in class on SDN.

some verbal knowledge that other people might have been cheating isn't something a school can use to prove that you cheated

a email trail showing you recieved non-allowed materials can absolutely end you.....as OP shows

 

[DrZeke]

As a general statement, as I sit 6 months from graduating residency, I think I can comfortably say that if anyone feels the need to cheat at any point and not put in the effort to really understand concepts, you're SOL. This isn't 8th grade math- the level of complexity we deal with daily requires this stuff to be ingrained in you. It needs to be mental muscle memory. I'm not talking about stuff like the specifics of the Krebs cycle... the concepts of all this are deep and intertwined.

Let this be a lesson to those who are early in this journey. Put the effort in now.... It pays dividends in the end.

Ok people don't cheat.... But it's ok if you fall asleep while learning the Krebs cycle and perk up in residency... As long as you pass med school at a decent rate. I don't think my understanding of biochem and my ability to interconnect glycogen pathway between different organ systems has given me insight and trained my brain to understand the intertwining complex ideas. But hey, I'm just an Ophtho resident. Studying in residency IMHO is different than studying in med school. The stakes are higher and I've found it easier...

Don't cheat.

 

[Cookie04]

if the school found out before you reported it? absolutely

That's crazy. I would be livid if someone put my career in jeopardy over something so stupid.

 

[haaaaaaaaaaveyoumetted]

I'm sorry OP! That sucks. We all make mistakes. I do hope you get a second chance.
People are being pretty harsh, so just wanted to send some positive energy your way. I'd be devastated if this happened to me.

This did not happen to OP. OP made a series of poor decisions that led to his/her unethical behavior being revealed.

Also the amount of people claiming that most students cheat to this degree and are just not caught is very alarming to me

 

[Ismet]

I asked the same question. I don't think he'd be ****ed. Unless he could get in trouble for not reporting it? But they didn't find him through his text messages, it was the emails that did it.

And how stupid is his friend for sending it to so many people? What an idiot.

You should get to know your school's honor code. Many schools consider it dishonorable to not only cheat but also to stand idly by while you see cheating happen.

 

[piii]

This did not happen to OP. OP made a series of poor decisions that led to his/her unethical behavior being revealed.

Also the amount of people claiming that most students cheat to this degree and are just not caught is very alarming to me

Maybe these people are the cheaters trying to justify cheating because "everyone" does it! 😵

 

[DrZeke]

This did not happen to OP. OP made a series of poor decisions that led to his/her unethical behavior being revealed.

Also the amount of people claiming that most students cheat to this degree and are just not caught is very alarming to me

Simma down now. Would you like me to help you get off the horse ?

This thread is amusing. I've seen people cheat and get away with it. Also now that we are on a rant - do none of you consider taking uppers to be cheating? Or what about all the alcoholics and pot heads we know in medicine? It's amazing to me that so many people on this thread act shocked and disgusted by OP behaviour. I'm not advocating for him, but it wasn't a crime against humanity. And many people make mistakes - single mistakes - theres no need to flip out and start protesting.

Many people make repeatedly bad decisions in medicine as I just listed above. So let's wake up and smell the reality.

 

[Cotterpin]

That's crazy. I would be livid if someone put my career in jeopardy over something so stupid.

I think your best bet in those situations is to immediately report it as soon as you get the email. Forward it straight to the professor.

Maybe these people are the cheaters trying to justify cheating because "everyone" does it! 😵

Yeah, I always suspect the people who make excuses for cheating are being defensive because they might have done similar sketchy things.

 

[Apollo1]

Vengeance is a dish best served cold, and it's very cold in space.

Love the Khan reference.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

Maybe these people are the cheaters trying to justify cheating because "everyone" does it! 😵

That's how I read it.

Also, OP did not make a mistake, he made a choice. In life, our choices can have good or bad consequences. He chose to take the easy road, and s/he should be willing to deal with the consequences associated with it.

 

[Ismet]

Simma down now. Would you like me to help you get off the horse ?

This thread is amusing. I've seen people cheat and get away with it. Also now that we are on a rant - do none of you consider taking uppers to be cheating? Or what about all the alcoholics and pot heads we know in medicine? It's amazing to me that so many people on this thread act shocked and disgusted by OP behaviour. I'm not advocating for him, but it wasn't a crime against humanity. And many people make mistakes - single mistakes - theres no need to flip out and start protesting.

Many people make repeatedly bad decisions in medicine as I just listed above. So let's wake up and smell the reality.

Exactly, people make bad decisions in medicine. That's why a person with a DUI or cheating or a felony offense, jail time, etc before med school do not get into med school because those people have ALREADY made bad decisions that are quite severe, so why admit someone who has already done it? That's the perspective admissions will see it from. This is not copying someone's homework. This is getting a hold of the final exam before it was given. It's pretty severe.

What he did is not a crime against humanity. It was a series of extremely poor decisions in a stressful situation. When medicine in itself is a stressful situation and you need to make a series of very important decisions, it's pretty clear why they would pick a person without this on their record over someone who does.

 

[bananafish94]

A word to the wise...this is slightly irrelevant but I am going to post it anyway because it is a common misconception amongst college students. I am a student member of the discipline committee at my school, and this process does not in any way resemble the US judicial system. You are not "innocent until proven guilty," and hiring a lawyer will do absolutely nothing. The overwhelming majority of colleges use the preponderance of evidence standard, or "50% plus a feather." So let's say you received this email and decided you wanted nothing to do with it, so you didn't look at the exam. But you don't report it, and two or three days later somebody else does. Good luck convincing the committee that there is below a 50% chance that you looked at it. I think the immediate best course of action would have been to reply all saying that this is reprehensible and that you wanted no part of it. Whether or not you report it yourself is an ethical question.

 

[Goro]

100% agree. As clinicians, you kids will be obligated to report stuff like this. It's a felony.

There's no such thing as consensual when one party is underage.

 

[mimelim]

In my limited experience...

I know of maybe 4-5 residents who openly admit they have cheated in the past or who I know cheat now on in-services or similar things, out of maybe ~200 residents. Every single one of them is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to being lazy, entitled and simply a sub-par part of the team. Are they unsafe? You could make the argument, but not convince everyone. But, are they doing less on average with the opportunities afforded to them? Absolutely. I certainly didn't have this experience prior to when I was sitting on an ADCOM, but from where I sit now, academically oriented IAs mean a heck of a lot more than anything else and at a very minimum highly correlated with attributes that I don't want in medicine.

Thankfully, because of the numbers we can afford to mostly blanket throw out people with academic IAs, regardless of anything else.

 

[Lawpy]

Random observation, but I'm pleased to see threads on volatile topics like:

1. Cheating
2. URM/ORM
3. MD vs DO
4. Carib

Are extremely popular in preallo... to the point that we get 5+ pages of info and ranting per day

 

[Lawpy]

Thankfully, because of the numbers we can afford to mostly blanket throw out people with academic IAs, regardless of anything else.

Why not just blanket throw out anyone with any IA (besides perhaps the alcohol ones)?

 

[DokterMom]

I think it's a tad bit dangerous to glorify other physicians...while I think you should live up to the highest ethical and moral standards as possible, we should admit that tons of skeevy (and morally questionable) people get admitted to med school and become attendings eventually. I personally know a cardiology fellow at a pretty big research institution (he may be an attending by now, who knows) who committed statutory rape with my best friend (is it considered even if it's consensual? She was 15 and he was 26 at the time) while he was a med student at a top 10 med school. Also know another IM resident that supposedly does a significant portion of my friend's nursing school assignments for her....which basically is helping her cheat through nursing school. I think it's important for all of us not to be on a high horse, even if what OP did was obviously wrong. People make mistakes, and since we're in a profession that requires us to be empathetic even towards some of the most horrid people, we should probably get practicing on it now.

It's kinda crappy how the goal of moral philosophy IS to create universal generalities to guide ethical behavior, but we have individuals who give the impression that they care to espouse philosophy, but rely on weakass BS relativism. What's worse is their ridiculous amount of projection onto others. No, not everyone cheats at some point in school or even at all. Yes, physicians are held to higher standards than college students. This is why when cheaters can't even be held to the same standards as BASIC college students, it is UNFAIR to NOT blast the future medical aspirations of such folk into space dust. Rendering any special treatment diminishes the value in even having these ethical expectations. Save your "well I know a doctor with 6 DUIs" stories for less rational discussion.

There are plenty of great experiences that impart life lessons that will demonstrate great character and being a strong candidate for medicine. Many do not involve cheating and lying and scrambling at effectively being a victim or recovering an aspect of yourself that should have never been freely wasted. @philosonista is the exact type of person I pray never speaks ethics within earshot of children under the age of 8, since by that point, they'd know better than to entertain such pathetic morality.

Being empathetic to human frailty and tolerating cheating and dishonesty within the medical profession are NOT the same thing.

How can the medical profession maintain high ethical standards when "small" ethical lapses are widely tolerated? Ignoring small ethical lapses (ex. piracy) has led to a culture where a certain level of dishonesty is widely considered acceptable. The "everybody does it" mentality has pervaded the culture to the extent that it's becoming confused and co-mingled with an "it's unfortunate but tolerable" or even an "it's inevitable" mindset. Excusing individual egregious acts of dishonesty have led to a culture that assumes all acts of dishonesty are "isolated" until proven to be part of a larger pattern -- then we scream with outrage. It's a slippery yet perfectly predictable slope -- Those who insist on absolute integrity are told to "get off your high horse" as if absolute integrity were a bad thing --

We have reaped what we sowed.

 

[WingedOx]

A word to the wise...this is slightly irrelevant but I am going to post it anyway because it is a common misconception amongst college students. I am a student member of the discipline committee at my school, and this process does not in any way resemble the US judicial system. You are not "innocent until proven guilty," and hiring a lawyer will do absolutely nothing. The overwhelming majority of colleges use the preponderance of evidence standard, or "50% plus a feather." So let's say you received this email and decided you wanted nothing to do with it, so you didn't look at the exam. But you don't report it, and two or three days later somebody else does. Good luck convincing the committee that there is below a 50% chance that you looked at it. I think the immediate best course of action would have been to reply all saying that this is reprehensible and that you wanted no part of it. Whether or not you report it yourself is an ethical question.

The reason why I posted the "A [student] shall not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do" honor code from West Point is because that last underlined part is usually part of just about every other academic honor code in the USA, though not so nicely concise.

Whether or not to report is may be an "ethical question", but it's a question where the answer is 100% clear*. Particularly when there's a paper trail with your name on it. It's a ****ty situation, but there's only one correct answer, and unfortunately it will result in broken friendships and relationships. Sadly we're all responsible for whom we associate with.

*Really, the "should you sleep with that patient" is an "ethics question" that comes up surprisingly often on steps and boards, but let's not pretend that there's ambiguity for any but one answer.

 

[mimelim]

Why not just blanket throw out anyone with any IA (besides perhaps the alcohol ones)?

This thread was about academic IAs, so as to not derail it, I won't go into detail about the others.

Many schools do and later many residencies (including mine) do. I actually had this discussion with my PD about how he deals with these: If you have an IA and apply to us, he actually ignores/bypasses your board scores/grades and goes to your LOR. Unless they say that you are the next generational talent and/or the next coming of Jesus, he throws out the application.

 

[Goro]

Wish I could "like" this 1000x!!!

Being empathetic to human frailty and tolerating cheating and dishonesty within the medical profession are NOT the same thing.

How can the medical profession maintain high ethical standards when "small" ethical lapses are widely tolerated? Ignoring small ethical lapses (ex. piracy) has led to a culture where a certain level of dishonesty is widely considered acceptable. The "everybody does it" mentality has pervaded the culture to the extent that it's becoming confused and co-mingled with an "it's unfortunate but tolerable" or even an "it's inevitable" mindset. Excusing individual egregious acts of dishonesty have led to a culture that assumes all acts of dishonesty are "isolated" until proven to be part of a larger pattern -- then we scream with outrage. It's a slippery yet perfectly predictable slope -- Those who insist on absolute integrity are told to "get off your high horse" as if absolute integrity were a bad thing --

We have reaped what we sowed.

Because there are some Adcom members who believe in redemption. A lot of us were young and stupid once, but as my learned colleague mimelim has alluded to already, this doesn't mean all of us were cheaters.

My clinical colleagues take professionalism very seriously. As I keep trying to point out, dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.


Why not just blanket throw out anyone with any IA (besides perhaps the alcohol ones)?

 

[Lawpy]

This thread was about academic IAs, so as to not derail it, I won't go into detail about the others.

Many schools do and later many residencies (including mine) do. I actually had this discussion with my PD about how he deals with these: If you have an IA and apply to us, he actually ignores/bypasses your board scores/grades and goes to your LOR. Unless they say that you are the next generational talent and/or the next coming of Jesus, he throws out the application.

It's a good approach for easily filtering through the apps. I think it is fairly obvious that any academic IA, especially that of cheating and plagiarism, is something that is unredeemable and the resulting app should be discarded immediately.

Because there are some Adcom members who believe in redemption. A lot of us were young and stupid once, but as my learned colleague mimelim has alluded to already, this doesn't mean all of us were cheaters.

My clinical colleagues take professionalism very seriously. As I keep trying to point out, dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.


Why not just blanket throw out anyone with any IA (besides perhaps the alcohol ones)?

There really aren't any "valid" IAs outside of alcohol and noise violations. Many of them involve theft and forgery (like that parking pass thread), or are blatantly fraudulent in academic settings (plagiarism and cheating). Simply throwing the app into the trash is the way to handle these IAs.

 

[mimelim]

It's a good approach for easily filtering through the apps. I think it is fairly obvious that any academic IA, especially that of cheating and plagiarism, is something that is unredeemable and the resulting app should be discarded immediately.

I think that on an individual person level, there are very few things that are not redeemable. Fundamentally, I believe in second and third chances and that is how I live my life and interact with other people, despite it biting me in the ass repeatedly.

But, for school admissions, there are a limited number of resources and we are tasked to somehow figure out 1) who is the most 'deserving' of the spot and 2) Who will do the most with the spot.

 

[Lawpy]

I think that on an individual person level, there are very few things that are not redeemable. Fundamentally, I believe in second and third chances and that is how I live my life and interact with other people, despite it biting me in the ass repeatedly.

But, for school admissions, there are a limited number of resources and we are tasked to somehow figure out 1) who is the most 'deserving' of the spot and 2) Who will do the most with the spot.

Wait a little confused here. If for school/residency admissions are running based on limited resources, how would someone with an IA be successful over someone without an IA? Do stats and ECs really trump the impact of an IA? Or, as you mentioned earlier, do adcoms/deans/PDs etc. simply defer to the letters to find any stunningly positive qualities about the applicants?

I ask this because it is reasonable to expect that admissions really wants the best class each cycle. Those with academic IAs are immediately rejected by default because there really aren't anything that can redeem them with such severe IAs. I understand adcoms believe in redemption but increased competition counteracts that, and there are many strong applicants with no IAs on their record who don't get in despite good school lists and good apps.

 

[mimelim]

Wait a little confused here. If for school/residency admissions are running based on limited resources, how would someone with an IA be successful over someone without an IA? Do stats and ECs really trump the impact of an IA? Or, as you mentioned earlier, do adcoms/deans/PDs etc. simply defer to the letters to find any stunningly positive qualities about the applicants?

I ask this because it is reasonable to expect that admissions really wants the best class each cycle. Those with academic IAs are immediately rejected by default because there really aren't anything that can redeem them with such severe IAs. I understand adcoms believe in redemption but increased competition counteracts that, and there are many strong applicants with no IAs on their record who don't get in despite good school lists and good apps.

There are people with IAs that get in. Of those that get in with the 'worse' IAs, they all have strong stats and exceptional ECs/LOR. There are simply some people that are 'worth the risk'.

I also challenge the contention that any 'strong applicants' without IAs that don't get into medical school with adaquate prep and smart application.

 

[piii]

Exactly, people make bad decisions in medicine. That's why a person with a DUI or cheating or a felony offense, jail time, etc before med school do not get into med school because those people have ALREADY made bad decisions that are quite severe, so why admit someone who has already done it? That's the perspective admissions will see it from. This is not copying someone's homework. This is getting a hold of the final exam before it was given. It's pretty severe.

What he did is not a crime against humanity. It was a series of extremely poor decisions in a stressful situation. When medicine in itself is a stressful situation and you need to make a series of very important decisions, it's pretty clear why they would pick a person without this on their record over someone who does.

I don't know why people bring up that it's not a crime against humanity to downplay its significance. No **** it's not s crime against humanity. But it is a crime against academic integrity, which is an integral part of medicine. Within the context of the field, it is still severe.

 

[Goro]

My learned colleague is spot on, as usual.

The bolded part goes into the 'redemption' that I keep mentioning.

There are people with IAs that get in. Of those that get in with the 'worse' IAs, they all have strong stats and exceptional ECs/LOR. There are simply some people that are 'worth the risk'.
.

 

[WingedOx]

Wait a little confused here. If for school/residency admissions are running based on limited resources, how would someone with an IA be successful over someone without an IA? Do stats and ECs really trump the impact of an IA? Or, as you mentioned earlier, do adcoms/deans/PDs etc. simply defer to the letters to find any stunningly positive qualities about the applicants?

I ask this because it is reasonable to expect that admissions really wants the best class each cycle. Those with academic IAs are immediately rejected by default because there really aren't anything that can redeem them with such severe IAs. I understand adcoms believe in redemption but increased competition counteracts that, and there are many strong applicants with no IAs on their record who don't get in despite good school lists and good apps.

honestly a lot of if your application will get looked at for redeeming qualities has to do with how generous the particular random ADCOM member is who is reading your application that morning happens to be (don't let me read your application before I've had my morning coffee....) Going through applications takes time and effort and you really don't want an excuse for someone to toss your file in the trash and say "next!"

 

[Lawpy]

There are people with IAs that get in. Of those that get in with the 'worse' IAs, they all have strong stats and exceptional ECs/LOR. There are simply some people that are 'worth the risk'.

I also challenge the contention that any 'strong applicants' without IAs that don't get into medical school with adaquate prep and smart application.

Really? So there are instances where those with IAs on cheating and plagiarism still get into a US school? That's a shame, because you'd expect medical schools to be risk averse.

Well there is the infamous possibility of a traitorous and deviant professor betraying the applicant's trust by sabotaging them with a bad letter. Totally beyond the applicant's control.

My learned colleague is spot on, as usual.

The bolded part goes into the 'redemption' that I keep mentioning.

honestly a lot of if your application will get looked at for redeeming qualities has to do with how generous the particular random ADCOM member is who is reading your application that morning happens to be (don't let me read your application before I've had my morning coffee....) Going through applications takes time and effort and you really don't want an excuse for someone to toss your file in the trash and say "next!"

Redemption means the schools really aren't as risk averse as SDN is making them out to be.

 

[WingedOx]

Well there is the infamous possibility of a traitorous and deviant professor betraying the applicant's trust by sabotaging them with a bad letter. Totally beyond the applicants' control.

Eh, even that rare to nonexistent possibility isn't beyond the control of the applicant.

The applicant can avoid pissing off said professor in the first place.
They also can have a proper assessment of the character and motivations of the person writing the letter.
...people skills are important in medicine...

 

[Lawpy]

Eh, even that rare to nonexistent possibility isn't beyond the control of the applicant.

The applicant can avoid pissing off said professor in the first place.
They also can have a proper assessment of the character and motivations of the person writing the letter.
...people skills are important in medicine...

Professors aren't forced to write LORs when they can't vouch for the applicant. Abusing confidentiality by writing bad things about an applicant essentially makes the professor look bad. It's really no different from some random guy emailing the adcoms/dean of admissions bashing a specific applicant in mind.

 

[WingedOx]

Professors aren't forced to write LORs when they can't vouch for the applicant. Abusing confidentiality by writing bad things about an applicant essentially makes the professor look bad. It's really no different from some random guy emailing the adcoms/dean of admissions bashing a specific applicant in mind.

Eh, sure but while it may not look great for the prof, it remains a preventable situation for the student. If there's ANY doubt that a professor won't write a good letter, then a good student should have plenty of other options.

 

[WingedOx]

Redemption means the schools really aren't as risk averse as SDN is making them out to be.

Risk is always assessed, never completely avoided. flags come in all sizes and colors.

 

[bc65]

I have great sympathy for OP as a person. I even hope that his school gives him another chance.
Cheating is very common. Probably lots of applicants to med school have cheated and been accepted.
Lots of med students cheat and get away with it.
Hence the saying, " You don't get punished for cheating, you get punished for getting caught".

But none of that matters, because there's little reason for a school to accept a known cheater when there are ample applicants who haven't been shown to have a propensity for cheating. I certainly wouldn't if it were up to me.

Here is some advice for everyone else:

You are grownups now. Follow the rules, no matter what they are. Don't bend the rules, and don't break the rules.
If you don't, you may face dire consequences later. I personally know 4 physicians who are or have been in jail. They all thought they could get away with what they were doing. They couldn't. They thought what they were doing was no big deal. They were wrong. Not to exaggerate this, but lots of murders start out as a few teenagers deciding to rob someone for fun. Think ahead, understand what you're doing. Taking a photo of a computer screen doesn't seem like a big deal, but stealing a test is. You may think you're doing the former, but really it's the latter. But both are wrong, so don't do either one and stay safe.

Be very careful about what you put on the internet or in email or in voicemail or in writing.
Anything said in anger, any jokes, any sarcasm, any criticism or compliments, should only be said in person. Even then, watch out for cell phone cameras. Assume that anything you write, or any voicemail, can and will be forwarded to the entire world. An angry voicemail to a friend, roommate, boyfriend/girlfriend, can be used against you, taken out of context, and may bite you big time. Maybe not now, but maybe years from now. You've all seen it. It can happen to you. This includes forwarding jokes. People lose jobs for that. If you get sanctioned or fired or dismissed for "forwarding racist/sexist/inappropriate " jokes or stories, it will follow you forever, even if you didn't notice the offending cartoon down at the bottom of the page.

There's a reason why I remain unverified on these forums. Websites get hacked.

Paranoid? Sure. But just follow the news, and see how many celebrities and politicians get into trouble for stupid things they leave in voicemails, tweets, or lies they tell. Oh yes, beware of twitter. Look how many people get negative publicity for their tweets.

If I got an email like that, even if I was going to use it, I would immediately send back an OMG GUYZ THIS IS REALLY WRONG message and cc everyone.

Here's someone who gets it.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Being empathetic to human frailty and tolerating cheating and dishonesty within the medical profession are NOT the same thing.

How can the medical profession maintain high ethical standards when "small" ethical lapses are widely tolerated? Ignoring small ethical lapses (ex. piracy) has led to a culture where a certain level of dishonesty is widely considered acceptable. The "everybody does it" mentality has pervaded the culture to the extent that it's becoming confused and co-mingled with an "it's unfortunate but tolerable" or even an "it's inevitable" mindset. Excusing individual egregious acts of dishonesty have led to a culture that assumes all acts of dishonesty are "isolated" until proven to be part of a larger pattern -- then we scream with outrage. It's a slippery yet perfectly predictable slope -- Those who insist on absolute integrity are told to "get off your high horse" as if absolute integrity were a bad thing --

We have reaped what we sowed.

This is a great post and solves much of the debate. That said, I'll offer a few more thoughts.

Those who are empathetic and/or who are pointing out that the medical school population is not comprised 100% by saints and is not without cheaters, liars, extreme gunners, narcissists who don't listen to patients, etc, etc are NOT necessarily arguing that the OP did not make an egregrious and possibly (likely?) fatal error. And clearly the OP (assuming this is real and not some MMI test) knows he made an egregious mistake that puts his acceptance and indeed any chance at being a physician at all at grave risk. Otherwise, he wouldn't have posted as he did. Putting aside blame, responsibility, redemption, etc for just a second, this is a traumatic situation for the person. Even if you are not empathetic, this person is in a crisis. Above all, we want the person to be safe.

The irritant for some of us in this debate is the knee-jerk conclusion about the person. This is sort of understandable and happens all the time. Basically all we know about the person is that he cheated. That's the only profile of the person we see so of course it is the dominant and overriding perception. It's possible if we saw the person's entire application and/or actually knew the person that we would see things a little differently (and that could go either way). Maybe the person has a history of outstanding character and many noble, selfless deeds. Maybe the person has been cheating since high school and the rash (and totalizing) conclusions would be proven correct. But as it stands, and this is aside from the whether he is doomed in terms of med school, the jump to t a totalizing conclusion is unfair.

Texan guy challenged some of my earlier examples based on them not being directly relevant to behavior as a physician. The OP's example isn't necessarily directly relevant either. If we can extrapolate that one Camus-like instance of cheating informs us that this person could never be trusted as a physician then the other examples can be extrapolated as well. Ever been to a dinner party and seen a physician act totally controlling and oppressive with his wife? If a physician drives drunk, is it possible he or she will be called to the hospital and do a procedure while still a bit impaired, or will every physician call a supervisor and confess to drinking when he or she was on-call? What I'm getting at is the rush to judgment about whether this person could ever be a trusted, good doctor. And if that's where we're going, then we can put the magnifying glass on others for all manner of reasons that could be considered potentially problematic or indicative of a character flaw. Again, this is not to say that the OP even deserves "another chance." He may be in fact doomed, and perhaps that is correct, but the extrapolations about who and what he is fundamentally are specious.

 

[haaaaaaaaaaveyoumetted]

Simma down now. Would you like me to help you get off the horse ?

This thread is amusing. I've seen people cheat and get away with it. Also now that we are on a rant - do none of you consider taking uppers to be cheating? Or what about all the alcoholics and pot heads we know in medicine? It's amazing to me that so many people on this thread act shocked and disgusted by OP behaviour. I'm not advocating for him, but it wasn't a crime against humanity. And many people make mistakes - single mistakes - theres no need to flip out and start protesting.

Many people make repeatedly bad decisions in medicine as I just listed above. So let's wake up and smell the reality.

As others above have stated, a "crime against humanity" is not the minimal criteria for committing an unethical act that calls into question your ability to be an honest or ethical physician. As @Goro keeps reminding,

dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

Being empathetic to human frailty and tolerating cheating and dishonesty within the medical profession are NOT the same thing.

How can the medical profession maintain high ethical standards when "small" ethical lapses are widely tolerated? Ignoring small ethical lapses (ex. piracy) has led to a culture where a certain level of dishonesty is widely considered acceptable. The "everybody does it" mentality has pervaded the culture to the extent that it's becoming confused and co-mingled with an "it's unfortunate but tolerable" or even an "it's inevitable" mindset. Excusing individual egregious acts of dishonesty have led to a culture that assumes all acts of dishonesty are "isolated" until proven to be part of a larger pattern -- then we scream with outrage. It's a slippery yet perfectly predictable slope -- Those who insist on absolute integrity are told to "get off your high horse" as if absolute integrity were a bad thing --

We have reaped what we sowed.

^^^ This.Stated in the best possible way. Expecting integrity and honesty from someone who wants to be a physician is not a "high horse" scenario. Other people's transgressions do not invalidate this standard, and holding people accountable for their poor choices is the only way to maintain it

 

[Ismet]

I don't know why people bring up that it's not a crime against humanity to downplay its significance. No **** it's not s crime against humanity. But it is a crime against academic integrity, which is an integral part of medicine. Within the context of the field, it is still severe.

Just to clarify, I was referring to what I quoted with that.

I think @DokterMom summarized it quite well. In the age of Internet piracy, things that are actually pretty serious (copyright infringement) are becoming more socially acceptable (people openly talking about torrenting, sharing PDFs of books, even professors condoning this, etc). It gets to a point where people think getting access to a final exam and using it is not as big a deal as it is.

 

[Lucca]

Just to reel the thread back to the OP for a second, I would like to remind everyone that the OP didn't make a "single stupid mistake". They made not one but a series of terrible choices. They were accepte to medical school. Literally their only job was to show up, meet expectations and pass with a C or a B. Nobody expected anything more. After receiving what they wanted, the acceptance, their motivation tanked and they were not even able to sustain tolerable grades in BIOCHEMISTRY. Not Complex Analysis or Quantum 3. I would expect someone good enough to be accepted as early as November to hold themselves to a higher standard, even if nobody else does. This was not a single decision and there were multiple points where OP could have jumped ship or thought harder about what they were doing.

Judgement is: No mercy. This does not compare to a freshman going out to their first college party, drinking for the first time and coming back to the dorm stumbling drunk .

 

[occams_razor]

Man what a poor decision. OP could have gotten a C and been fine. He could have withdrawn and been fine (I took a W post acceptance and it was a non issue). But cheating is unacceptable and IMO absolutely warrants the acceptance being rescinded

 

[piii]

Just to clarify, I was referring to what I quoted with that.

I think @DokterMom summarized it quite well. In the age of Internet piracy, things that are actually pretty serious (copyright infringement) are becoming more socially acceptable (people openly talking about torrenting, sharing PDFs of books, even professors condoning this, etc). It gets to a point where people think getting access to a final exam and using it is not as big a deal as it is.

Haha sorry I should have been more clear. my comment was more of an addendum in support of your comment.

 

[Lawpy]

Eh, sure but while it may not look great for the prof, it remains a preventable situation for the student. If there's ANY doubt that a professor won't write a good letter, then a good student should have plenty of other options.

But how would a student assess whether a prof would write a bad LOR? By agreeing to write the LOR, the student gets the hunch that the LOR at a minimum will be mediocre (which isn't great but by no means lethal).

Although I agree that asking for an LOR from a professor you're in bad terms with is pretty *****ic

Risk is always assessed, never completely avoided. flags come in all sizes and colors.

Flags come in all colors? But all I see is red

Risk is assessed yes, but it should be minimized to the point it becomes near zero.

Just to clarify, I was referring to what I quoted with that.

I think @DokterMom summarized it quite well. In the age of Internet piracy, things that are actually pretty serious (copyright infringement) are becoming more socially acceptable (people openly talking about torrenting, sharing PDFs of books, even professors condoning this, etc). It gets to a point where people think getting access to a final exam and using it is not as big a deal as it is.

While the issues are connected, piracy has to do with saving costs. No one wants to waste $300 on some low quality textbook that a professor randomly picked. Cost-saving is usually more forgivable than being lazy and illegally acquiring information to gain an upperhand (which is academic fraudulence).

 

[Ismet]

While the issues are connected, piracy has to do with saving costs. No one wants to waste $300 on some low quality textbook that a professor randomly picked. Cost-saving is usually more forgivable than being lazy and illegally acquiring information to gain an upperhand (which is academic fraudulence).

The point of my post was not to compare the two but to point out the slope.

Also if you want to save money, rent the book or see if you can buy it used off an upperclassman. That's not the point of this thread though.

 

[235009]

This thread was about academic IAs, so as to not derail it, I won't go into detail about the others.

Many schools do and later many residencies (including mine) do. I actually had this discussion with my PD about how he deals with these: If you have an IA and apply to us, he actually ignores/bypasses your board scores/grades and goes to your LOR. Unless they say that you are the next generational talent and/or the next coming of Jesus, he throws out the application.

Wait a little confused here. If for school/residency admissions are running based on limited resources, how would someone with an IA be successful over someone without an IA? Do stats and ECs really trump the impact of an IA? Or, as you mentioned earlier, do adcoms/deans/PDs etc. simply defer to the letters to find any stunningly positive qualities about the applicants?

I ask this because it is reasonable to expect that admissions really wants the best class each cycle. Those with academic IAs are immediately rejected by default because there really aren't anything that can redeem them with such severe IAs. I understand adcoms believe in redemption but increased competition counteracts that, and there are many strong applicants with no IAs on their record who don't get in despite good school lists and good apps.

To be clear: IAs that happened prior to med school DO NOT have to be reported to residency programs. ERAS (AMCAS for residency applications) only asks about IAs in med school. So if OP were to (by some miracle) keep his med school seat @mimelim's PD would never know that he had an IA before med school.

Really? So there are instances where those with IAs on cheating and plagiarism still get into a US school?

Yes, students with those kind of IAs do get into US MD schools. Probably more common at DO schools.