Thanks!

[shy_hulud]

Thanks!

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[ACKjp]

I just came to say this is genuinely insane and major congrats to you on all this success! You literally cannot go wrong so I’d go wherever you’d be happiest (and probably wouldn’t pass up a full tuition offer). You are clearly able to work hard and will be able to put together a killer residency app from any one of these schools. Insane!

 

[ByThe+C]

Go to HMS and gently nudge Duke and ask them to let me off the WL.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I suggest stop comparing by "prestige". They are all great schools worthy to have you. Which school's students, faculty, preceptor, or alumni will treat you like a colleague? How large of a class do you want? Among those you will receive a full tuition scholarship, which one would you feel happy giving the same amount of money back to help the next student like yourself?

 

[shy_hulud]

Go to HMS and gently nudge Duke and ask them to let me off the WL.

Lmao I'll let em know. Since you're prolly more familiar with Durham than I am, what's your impression of that whole area? For the other part, which elements of HMS are worth the $400k premium over some of my other options, in your opinion?

I suggest stop comparing by "prestige". They are all great schools worthy to have you. Which school's students, faculty, preceptor, or alumni will treat you like a colleague? How large of a class do you want? Among those you will receive a full tuition scholarship, which one would you feel happy giving the same amount of money back to help the next student like yourself?

Thanks! I'd say the only school I've heard mixed things about re: academic culture is Columbia, every other school I've really only heard good things about. Around 100 is probably my ideal class size, which is closest to UChicago, WashU, and Yale, but honestly they're all similar enough that it wasn't a major deciding factor me.

 

[ByThe+C]

Lmao I'll let em know. Since you're prolly more familiar with Durham than I am, what's your impression of that whole area? For the other part, which elements of HMS are worth the $400k premium over some of my other options, in your opinion?

Thanks! I'd say the only school I've heard mixed things about re: academic culture is Columbia, every other school I've really only heard good things about. Around 100 is probably my ideal class size, which is closest to UChicago, WashU, and Yale, but honestly they're all similar enough that it wasn't a major deciding factor me.

I have family in NC but not in the Raleigh area. Durham is a lot more developed than you think and raleigh is right there if you need city stuff to do. I have family and connections near major cities already so if I want to visit the major cities, I go visit my family and friends to get my big city fix for the year.

The main question you need to answer (w.r.t. choosing HMS) is: after you go to HMS and pay off the 400k in loans, would you trade your Harvard degree for 400k in your hand? I suggest you ask HMS alumni attendings how many of them would trade their degree for 400k in their hand. I suspect a lot of them, especially if they've been attendings for a decade or more, would not trade their HMS degree for less than a year of their income. Now, I wonder how many wealthy docs out there would trade 400k to have an HMS degree.

 

[deleted1095841]

Congrats! These are amazing choices.

I would choose one of the schools with P/F clinicals: HMS, WashU*, Duke
*I heard they have some stratification, but I'm not familiar

I'm sure you're brilliant, but clinical evals are really random and you might not come away with the grades you expect, especially if the shelf exam is a relatively small % of the grade. (e.g. at my school it's only 20-30% depending on the clerkship)
And unfortunately, these grades really matter for residency.

 

[polar_seltzer]

Congrats on your amazing success! No wrong choices here.

Also a fellow cyclist/urbanist/transit nerd — DM me if you want to talk shop!

 

[MercifulCamper]

Congrats! These are amazing choices.

I would choose one of the schools with P/F clinicals: HMS, WashU*, Duke
*I heard they have some stratification, but I'm not familiar

I'm sure you're brilliant, but clinical evals are really random and you might not come away with the grades you expect, especially if the shelf exam is a relatively small % of the grade. (e.g. at my school it's only 20-30% depending on the clerkship)
And unfortunately, these grades really matter for residency.

Stanford and Yale are also P/F preclin and clinical. I agree. Go for cheapest with P/F preclin and clinical grading. Nobody wants to sweat during your rotations if you don't have to.

 

[JungleTrouble]

just wanted to say ur insane, congrats!

 

[BrokenLlamas]

Congrats on the crazy cycle bro!! Proud to see your hard work pay off!!

My mentors (primarily high-level academic physicians, for transparency) have pretty much hammered these four aspects into me when considering where to attend: Finances, prestige (within medicine primarily), stress-free curriculum (No AOA, P/F for pre-clinical + clinical), and your "fit" with the institution (i.e., choose the school that maximizes these four aspects for your personal situation).

Based on these factors, personally, I would lean heavily towards Wash U, especially if you see yourself going into private practice (though, would also suggest Duke if they match the scholarship). Minimizing the financial burden of your medical education is a significant pro that not many people have the chance to experience. Attending a T5/T10 with little debt is HUGE.

(For context, my mentors have said T5s/T10s are absolutely worth ~$200k in debt - any cheaper great, any more than that, look for cheaper alternatives that still maximize the four factors above)

However, I do also have to say that my "lean" would be modified if you had a change of heart in what you wanted to do as a physician (which, IMO, is very, very likely to happen - just chat with a couple of seasoned physicians and you'll see what I mean hahah).

That being said, I also feel compelled to mention this. IMO, I feel Harvard would be the school that leaves the most doors open post-graduation. Would I personally recommend that you attend Harvard for $400k-$500k? Honestly, I really don't know if Harvard is worth that price tag, because that much debt will absolutely affect your QoL as a physician. I would fill out the financial aid information for Harvard ASAP and see how much aid they give. You might be surprised at what you receive!

All in all, you really can't go wrong with your options (it's what all my mentors tell me about my cycle, and it's so true hahah). One piece of advice that I also ascribe to is to make a decision based on what would leave you with the smallest "what if". I couldn't tell you what that may be for you, but think about what option would leave you with the least regret!!

 

[notamachine]

Prestige is important for residency applications, but the general impression I get is that within the top 10-15 you're splitting hairs for the most part. Going to Harvard over Northwestern would be a bigger deal if you plan on using your MD in an unorthodox way like inventing something or possibly pivoting to finance. Also the $500k figure is probably right for interest accrued by graduation, but don't forget to think about lifetime interest of the loan as you pay it off.

Imo you should think about this decision in terms of support, curriculum quality of life, and finances. I think Northwestern offers the best financial decision and family support while Yale's curriculum will probably offer the best curriculum quality of life with their "Yale system". I think Northwestern is probably a no-brainer here with UChicago being a dark horse. I would only choose Yale if you think that the curriculums at these other schools would make for a miserable 4 (or 5) year experience.

 

[shy_hulud]

I suggest you ask HMS alumni attendings how many of them would trade their degree for 400k in their hand. I suspect a lot of them, especially if they've been attendings for a decade or more, would not trade their HMS degree for less than a year of their income

The big things for me is that I'm pretty certain I want nothing to do with academic medicine in the future, although thanks for the tip, I'll keep that in mind!

I would choose one of the schools with P/F clinicals: HMS, WashU*, Duke
*I heard they have some stratification, but I'm not familiar

After confirming with students, WashU's clinicals are indeed P/F. The extra distinction layer is separate from the actual clerkship and way less relevant

Stanford and Yale are also P/F preclin and clinical. I agree. Go for cheapest with P/F preclin and clinical grading. Nobody wants to sweat during your rotations if you don't have to.

Thanks! After looking more into it, I'm seeing mixed info on if Duke's clerkships are full P/F. MSAR says they're Honors/Pass/Fail, but a recent surgical clerkship guide from Duke says they're just P/F. I know you're across the country at UCSF lol but are you guys @lone_cypress able to confirm, like from when you guys were applying?

I would fill out the financial aid information for Harvard ASAP and see how much aid they give. You might be surprised at what you receive!

Thanks llamas! Yeah for sure, won't be counting them out before I even get the package lol but figured I'd get ahead of what I expect

Imo you should think about this decision in terms of support, curriculum quality of life, and finances. I think Northwestern offers the best financial decision and family support while Yale's curriculum will probably offer the best curriculum quality of life with their "Yale system". I think Northwestern is probably a no-brainer here with UChicago being a dark horse. I would only choose Yale if you think that the curriculums at these other schools would make for a miserable 4 (or 5) year experience.

Thanks! Where would you say WashU fits in with support/curriculum/finances? To me, they seemed like a really good balance between being close to home, really cheap, but still P/F all four years (not quite as laissez faire as Yale lol but up there)

 

[deleted1095841]

I don't know about Duke.
But since you've been accepted, you can just email the admissions office and ask. As long as you word the email professionally, there is no worry that they'll think poorly of you. If anything, they'll bend over backward to help since now they're trying to recruit you.

Also, if you end up practicing at a non-profit (either academics or a public community hospital/clinic), which a lot of docs do, then you can take advantage of PSLF. After 10 years, any debt remaining is simply forgiven! And half those 10 years would be residency, where you wouldn't be paying much due to income-based repayment. So don't worry too much about the debt. This isn't like buying a car or a house.

 

[Labe]

If Northwestern can do full tuition, that would personally be my pick. I don’t think there’s a significant prestige difference at the places which might offer full tuition, and they’re all so great, I personally couldn’t justify paying full price even for HMS when you have full tuition offers at such great school. You can also save on living costs at Northwestern and have a great support system there. I also don’t think living at home would affect social life that significantly. Unlike some schools (Harvard, NYC schools, Yale) where the majority of students are in a couple of buildings, often being dorms/subsidized housing, people will probably be more spread out. If you live 15-20 minutes away it won’t be super inconvenient to attend social events. Lastly, I think I would try to attend as many second looks of the schools you’re seriously considering and try to get a feel for the student body vibe. Disclaimer: I also do have a bias towards Chicago and consider it miles above STL or Rochester MN as a place where I would want to live lol

 

[Doja Stan]

With all due congratulations, I’m a little confused why you’re seeking out internet strangers’ opinions about functionally equivalent programs whereby any real-world differences are rooted in your individual preferences. Only you can decide what locational/curricular differences matter to you.

I’m also concerned that you still have HMS in contention when, by your own pro/con lists, you’re essentially paying $300k for “layman prestige.” I’d recommend doing some serious reflecting on what matters most to you and narrowing down your acceptances. Best of luck!

 

[ByThe+C]

Thanks! After looking more into it, I'm seeing mixed info on if Duke's clerkships are full P/F. MSAR says they're Honors/Pass/Fail, but a recent surgical clerkship guide from Duke says they're just P/F.

Duke has 2nd year P/F clinicals, 4th year clinicals are Honors/Pass/Fail

 

[shy_hulud]

Also, if you end up practicing at a non-profit (either academics or a public community hospital/clinic), which a lot of docs do, then you can take advantage of PSLF. After 10 years, any debt remaining is simply forgiven! And half those 10 years would be residency, where you wouldn't be paying much due to income-based repayment. So don't worry too much about the debt. This isn't like buying a car or a house.

Thanks! Yeah I was a bit familiar with PSLF. My concern(s) are that I'm 99% sure I won't be doing academic medicine and I'm a little hesitant to bank on PSLF remaining unchanged over the next ~decade (given the current political climate). Although I'm probably a bit too risk-averse lmao and you're right that it is a potential option.

Unlike some schools (Harvard, NYC schools, Yale) where the majority of students are in a couple of buildings, often being dorms/subsidized housing, people will probably be more spread out. If you live 15-20 minutes away it won’t be super inconvenient to attend social events. Lastly, I think I would try to attend as many second looks of the schools you’re seriously considering and try to get a feel for the student body vibe. Disclaimer: I also do have a bias towards Chicago and consider it miles above STL or Rochester MN as a place where I would want to live lol

That's true! For me, at least, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer STL over Rochester, but April will be like all traveling for me lol

With all due congratulations, I’m a little confused why you’re seeking out internet strangers’ opinions about functionally equivalent programs whereby any real-world differences are rooted in your individual preferences. Only you can decide what locational/curricular differences matter to you.

I’m also concerned that you still have HMS in contention when, by your own pro/con lists, you’re essentially paying $300k for “layman prestige.” I’d recommend doing some serious reflecting on what matters most to you and narrowing down your acceptances. Best of luck!

Thanks! I'd say it's a bit of choice paralysis, honestly. I'm a bit afraid that I'm making the money a more important factor than it should be, but on the other hand I'm not convinced I'll be able to get $200-300k of marginal value out of a school, given I don't have major research/entrepreneurial goals (albeit I do have a bit of interest in health policy). So I was mostly looking to get some different perspectives since, for all I know, my goals will change massively over the next four years.

I think the biggest pros of the $300k difference would be a bit better living city (Boston>STL for me) and stronger interdisciplinary opportunities.

 

[chord]

Congratulations on your application success! A lot of strong choices here.

I am/have been affiliated with multiple of these institutions, and am in a surgical subspecialty and have participated in the residency applicant review process for the field so here is my non-specific advice.

First, recognize that these are all outstanding schools and the differences between them academically or professionally are marginal. You have already checked the “prestige” box so do not worry too much about the differences.

I think the most important factor here is the money. In my personal opinion, it would be very challenging to convince me that paying full price at one of these institutions is better than any money / all the money from another one is a sound decision. If one of the schools that hasn’t given you money really interests you and you’d pick there all else being equal, call their financial aid office, tell them where you have been accepted and what financial aid offers you have gotten and there is a reasonable chance they will help you out. These schools have a ton of money especially for financial aid and they really like to have top applicants attend their school over others. In many cases this does not work, but I think at least one of the non-aid schools you listed will increase your financial aid with this strategy. Anecdotally, of the few people in my class that I knew this data for, they had offers similar to yours at other schools (including some of the ones you have listed) and worked that into a nice bit of money at the school we attended.

Second, if your goal is to stay in the Midwest, remember that the place you have the highest chance of matching at in any specialty (but especially in surgical subspecialties) at your home institution, so the Midwest schools have an advantage in that regard. You can match anywhere in any specialty from any of these schools, but your highest chances are always at home.

Third, research is a component of the curriculum at all of these schools, but can be minimized if that’s not your jam. Surgical subspecialty applicants are notorious for valuing research, so it’s nice to have the option to be plugged into a research machine for those purposes, which is an advantage these schools will all give you.

Finally, do not undervalue the impact of a support system. Medical school is hard and having people you like and trust not far away is so important. It can be isolating moving to a new place not knowing anyone. Some people like that and thrive in it, others do not do well in that kind of environment. Decide what’s important for your own happiness and use that to help drive your decision. Being happy means you’re likely to be successful and especially given your school options here, that is probably going to be a greater predictor of your success than any other factor.

I want to keep my training pathway anonymous so I won’t say much more here, but please feel free to PM me if you’d like more information.

Congratulations and best of luck with your decision.