The 32 hour rule

[Lollygag]

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Heyyyy everyone,
I listen to this medical school podcast called MSHQ that is partnered with OldPreMeds.com, in one of the recent episodes they mentioned this thing called the "32 hour rule" that they claimed many medical school adcom's are starting to adopt as a result of the rise of nontraditional students. He talks about it at 5:05 :

Basically, instead of looking at your cumulative GPA as a whole, they said that some select schools will take the last 32 hours/credits that you have received and average those grades to come up with a new GPA and that GPA becomes the GPA they look at. I've absolutely never heard of this before.

These are the schools they mentioned that do this:
Wayne State University
Michigan College of Human Medicine
Boston University Medical School
Louisiana State University - New Orleans

Has anyone else ever heard of this? Because I sure haven't. I won't be applying to any of those schools but I just thought it was interesting and although I can't speak to the legitimacy of it, I thought it was worth throwing out there.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm not sure whether i understood this policy correctly. If i failed 3.5 years worth of courses and got a 4.0 on the last 32+ credits of courses, would this policy imply my new GPA would be a 4.0?

 

[whatever5]

I'm not sure whether i understood this policy correctly. If i failed 3.5 years worth of courses and got a 4.0 on the last 32+ credits of courses, would this policy imply my new GPA would be a 4.0?

I doubt it affects traditional students much. Considering this is a policy put in place for nontrads, I think its to weigh SMPs or DIY prereq courses heavier than whatever old coursework you've completed. Then again, I didn't listen to the thing so I may be way off base.

 

[Lollygag]

I'm not sure whether i understood this policy correctly. If i failed 3.5 years worth of courses and got a 4.0 on the last 32+ credits of courses, would this policy imply my new GPA would be a 4.0?

LSU's site specifies "post-baccalaureate hours" so going off of that then technically if you finished 4 years worth of courses with a 2.0, graduated and then did 32 hours of a post bacc with a 4.0 then technically you're within their parameters. Which is definitely ridiculous haha

 

[Kr#36]

I would argue that in most cases this is somewhat progressive. An individual's undergraduate work could have been 5-10 yrs ago with no real bearing on the person they are when completing a post bac or entering med school. Whereas a 22 yr old just graduating is very likely still the exact same person their transcript says they are.

 

[Hospitalized]

I hate society's obsession for "rules."

 

[Ismet]

I don't understand why schools have these "rules" like averaging the MCAT scores or only looking at the last X credits.

It's really not that hard or time consuming to take a holistic view of the GPA and MCAT. It's all broken down - GPA by year and by BCPM and non-BCPM, and MCAT by subsection. If the committee is just looking at the total GPA and nothing else, they're doing their applicants a huge disservice.

It is very easy to identify a "non-trad" applicant and see an upward trend or see a solid post-bacc or graduate GPA and evaluate based on that. I don't see the need to single out an arbitrary 32 credit hours to calculate a new GPA.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Well schools in theory "average" multiple MCAT scores because AAMC studies have shown the "average' of someones MCAT scores if taken more than once is the best indicator of their performance in medical school(note I dont necessairly agree with all their studies or how they are making their conclusions etc)

As for this policy Wayne State has been famous for doing this for years. The key caveat is that it has to be post-bacc classes that meet a certain amount of credits.

Also while we're on the subject there are schools that have completely abolished any pre-reqs at all(Tulane, Keck come to mind). Just have a degree and MCAT score and you are eligible in theory to matriculate.

 

[takeurmeds02]

LSU's site specifies "post-baccalaureate hours" so going off of that then technically if you finished 4 years worth of courses with a 2.0, graduated and then did 32 hours of a post bacc with a 4.0 then technically you're within their parameters. Which is definitely ridiculous haha

Well, is it really that ridiculous? I mean, essentially that's the point of a post-bac, to improve your GPA and turn things around. If your MCAT and experiences are stellar, why should you still be held back from a past mistake that you have obviously corrected. Not to say that they should necessarily ignore undergrad performance because that's how you gauge improvement but I don't think it should necessarily hold you back. This is not to say that I completely agree with this "32 hour rule" but I do think, in general, post-bac work should be given considerable weight if you there's a clear difference from who you were to who you are now.

 

[Lawpy]

I doubt it affects traditional students much. Considering this is a policy put in place for nontrads, I think its to weigh SMPs or DIY prereq courses heavier than whatever old coursework you've completed. Then again, I didn't listen to the thing so I may be way off base.

I would argue that in most cases this is somewhat progressive. An individual's undergraduate work could have been 5-10 yrs ago with no real bearing on the person they are when completing a post bac or entering med school. Whereas a 22 yr old just graduating is very likely still the exact same person their transcript says they are.

Well, is it really that ridiculous? I mean, essentially that's the point of a post-bac, to improve your GPA and turn things around. If your MCAT and experiences are stellar, why should you still be held back from a past mistake that you have obviously corrected. Not to say that they should necessarily ignore undergrad performance because that's how you gauge improvement but I don't think it should necessarily hold you back. This is not to say that I completely agree with this "32 hour rule" but I do think, in general, post-bac work should be given considerable weight if you there's a clear difference from who you were to who you are now.

Let me rephrase this. Suppose I barely graduated college with a 2.0 GPA (and possibly a lower sGPA). I then enroll in a postbacc and ace it with a 4.0 GPA. Does this 32-credit rule means my GPA will automatically be a 4.0?

If that's not the case, what about in a similar situation above but i take 1-2 years off and then ace the postbacc? Will my GPA automatically be a 4.0>

 

[GrapesofRath]

Let me rephrase this. Suppose I barely graduated college with a 2.0 GPA (and possibly a lower sGPA). I then enroll in a postbacc and ace it with a 4.0 GPA. Does this 32-credit rule means my GPA will automatically be a 4.0?

If that's not the case, what about in a similar situation above but i take 1-2 years off and then ace the postbacc? Will my GPA automatically be a 4.0>

I believe Wayne State will calculate your GPA in their system to be a 4.0 in this case. Of course all grades you have from all years are readily available to them.

There's a big difference between a school calculating that GPA as a 4.0 for their numbers evaluation and assuming that applicant will be treated and evaluated the same as a 4.0 UG GPA applicant. The former is true, the latter is a flawed and dangerously inaccurate assumption.

 

[neuroresearchguy23]

Let me rephrase this. Suppose I barely graduated college with a 2.0 GPA (and possibly a lower sGPA). I then enroll in a postbacc and ace it with a 4.0 GPA. Does this 32-credit rule means my GPA will automatically be a 4.0?

If that's not the case, what about in a similar situation above but i take 1-2 years off and then ace the postbacc? Will my GPA automatically be a 4.0>

I was in a similar position as you (low undergrad, 4.0 post bac) and one of the schools mentioned above did not replace my gpa but definitely factored it in. I was still rejected by them, but when I called them they said that they recognized the large improvement in my grades.

 

[Lawpy]

I believe Wayne State will calculate your GPA in their system to be a 4.0 in this case. Of course all grades you have from all years are readily available to them.

There's a big difference between a school calculating that GPA as a 4.0 for their numbers evaluation and assuming that applicant will be treated and evaluated the same as a 4.0 UG GPA applicant. The former is true, the latter is a flawed and dangerously inaccurate assumption.

I was in a similar position as you (low undergrad, 4.0 post bac) and one of the schools mentioned above did not replace my gpa but definitely factored it in. I was still rejected by them, but when I called them they said that they recognized the large improvement in my grades.

Hm, so the 32-hour rule really just means that adcoms recognize your upward trends. The GPA resulting from the rule is really used for internal evaluations and not really the same as the formal AMCAS GPA that all medical schools adhere to.

 

[neuroresearchguy23]

Hm, so the 32-hour rule really just means that adcoms recognize your upward trends. The GPA resulting from the rule is really used for internal evaluations and not really the same as the formal AMCAS GPA that all medical schools adhere to.

That is correct. Of course, some schools might evaluate the 32-hour rule more extensively than others. I'm sure in-state vs out-of-state helps with things like that. In my experience, it was more of "Hey good job on killing it in your post-bac.... but no."

 

[GrapesofRath]

Hm, so the 32-hour rule really just means that adcoms recognize your upward trends. The GPA resulting from the rule is really used for internal evaluations and not really the same as the formal AMCAS GPA that all medical schools adhere to.

Whether or not for MSAR statistics Wayne State would report the applicant you described as having a "4.o" or "2.0 averaged with the 4.0 so more like 2.4" I dont know. My guess is they would report it as a 4.0, but I cant say with any certainty.

My point more is that all grades are still readily apparent on your transcript. Just because your GPA gets recalculated from this rule doesnt mean itll be viewed the same as someone who has that same GPA without needing this rule in anyway at all. This rule can more be looked at as a way to save yourself from being screened out. Soembody with a 2.6 who aces a post-bacc but is still at a 2.9 would still get screened out at a fair number of schools. Wayne State would not happen to be one of them.

 

[Terry Toma]

My point more is that all grades are still readily apparent on your transcript. Just because your GPA gets recalculated from this rule doesnt mean itll be viewed the same as someone who has that same GPA without needing this rule in anyway at all. This rule can more be looked at as a way to save yourself from being screened out. Soembody with a 2.6 who aces a post-bacc but is still at a 2.9 would still get screened out at a fair number of schools. Wayne State would not happen to be one of them.

This seems like the most important application of the calculation to me. As you say, once the app is in front of human eyes, the adcom can see all the grades anyway, so it doesn't really matter what the school's official formula for calculating GPA is when it comes to IIs or acceptances.

If your school values reinvention, you might as well let the app of the 4.0 postbacc student past the autoreject. At that point, the adcom can look at the whole package and make a decision, but at least they've put the decision in human hands.

 

[Goro]

On credit hours, many schools understand that the you of now is not the you of then. I seriously doubt that other Adcoms throw out the first two years on some stellar non-trad or reinventing pre-med, but rather that one's latter hours are simply weighted more.

I don't understand why schools have these "rules" like averaging the MCAT scores or only looking at the last X credits.

It's really not that hard or time consuming to take a holistic view of the GPA and MCAT. It's all broken down - GPA by year and by BCPM and non-BCPM, and MCAT by subsection. If the committee is just looking at the total GPA and nothing else, they're doing their applicants a huge disservice.

It is very easy to identify a "non-trad" applicant and see an upward trend or see a solid post-bacc or graduate GPA and evaluate based on that. I don't see the need to single out an arbitrary 32 credit hours to calculate a new GPA.

 

[ChrisMack390]

*furiously adds 4 schools to list*

(actually I already had Wayne)

 

[kcgoldst]

LSU's site specifies "post-baccalaureate hours" so going off of that then technically if you finished 4 years worth of courses with a 2.0, graduated and then did 32 hours of a post bacc with a 4.0 then technically you're within their parameters. Which is definitely ridiculous haha

FYI for anyone revisiting this thread. I emailed LSU’s admissions office, the 32 hours does not have to be completed in a formal post bacc program, this is for students taking classes as a post bacc student, meaning they obtained an undergraduate degree a long time ago and have returned to take pre reqs for med school. So if you graduated with a 2.0 and then immediately returned to take 32 hours of post bacc courses and got a 4.0, this would not help you. This is for students with a significant amount of time between old undergrad grades and fresh undergrad grades taken after obtaining a bachelors degree a long time ago.

 

[deleted555445]

i know this is a super old thread, but reading through it inspired a question.

does anyone know how these rules work in practice? when deciding for an II or for admissions, are all reviewers blinded to previous grades and just given the post-bacc grades if applicable? this may be important (albeit to a very niche applicant population) because, if someone has a 3.3 overall but a 4.0 post-bacc and a high MCAT, a reviewer who just sees a 4.0/522 applicant might not think its worth it to interview them since they're so high stats. i'm mostly asking about Wayne State that seems to have formalized this rule more than others.

 

[KnightDoc]

i know this is a super old thread, but reading through it inspired a question.

does anyone know how these rules work in practice? when deciding for an II or for admissions, are all reviewers blinded to previous grades and just given the post-bacc grades if applicable? this may be important (albeit to a very niche applicant population) because, if someone has a 3.3 overall but a 4.0 post-bacc and a high MCAT, a reviewer who just sees a 4.0/522 applicant might not think its worth it to interview them since they're so high stats. i'm mostly asking about Wayne State that seems to have formalized this rule more than others.

I'm going to take a stab at this even though I am just a fellow premed. No reviewer is actually going to "just see a 4.0/522 applicant" because this policy has zero impact on how AMCAS crunches the numbers, so the 3.3 and 4.0 will present as 3.3 and 4.0 when the primary comes in. These "rules" are nothing more than internal policies, so anyone reviewing the file will immediately see it's not a true 4.0, and would be highly unlikely to screen the candidate out for being too high stat after creating the policy to make the candidate viable in the first place. JMHO.

 

[deleted555445]

I'm going to take a stab at this even though I am just a fellow premed. No reviewer is actually going to "just see a 4.0/522 applicant" because this policy has zero impact on how AMCAS crunches the numbers, so the 3.3 and 4.0 will present as 3.3 and 4.0 when the primary comes in. These "rules" are nothing more than internal policies, so anyone reviewing the file will immediately see it's not a true 4.0, and would be highly unlikely to screen the candidate out for being too high stat after creating the policy to make the candidate viable in the first place. JMHO.

i agree AMCAS generates a GPA, but if you look at other schools they have policies about things like blinding some reviewers to stats and only showing them EC's and essays, or showing stats but not showing what college they went to, etc. while there will be someone who sees the whole package, its possible that the information that gets transmitted internally to whoever is making the decisions is altered/redacted in some way.

 

[KnightDoc]

i agree AMCAS generates a GPA, but if you look at other schools they have policies about things like blinding some reviewers to stats and only showing them EC's and essays, or showing stats but not showing what college they went to, etc. while there will be someone who sees the whole package, its possible that the information that gets transmitted internally to whoever is making the decisions is altered/redacted in some way.

Fair enough, but schools that do that do it for a reason. What would be the reason to create a policy to make otherwise uncompetitive applicants competitive, only to mask certain information that then causes the applicants to be screened out due to resource allocation? At the end of the day, anything could happen, but creating a process that would make such a result possible would make no sense.

 

[deleted555445]

Fair enough, but schools that do that do it for a reason. What would be the reason to create a policy to make otherwise uncompetitive applicants competitive, only to mask certain information that then causes the applicants to be screened out due to resource allocation? At the end of the day, anything could happen, but creating a process that would make such a result possible would make no sense.

agreed it would by no means be the perfect process, that's why i'm trying to see if anyone has a better understanding... maybe they put a '4.0 (post-bacc)' note on there or something, i can think of some good solutions but the best answers aren't always the ones that are actually being implemented

 

[KnightDoc]

agreed it would by no means be the perfect process, that's why i'm trying to see if anyone has a better understanding... maybe they put a '4.0 (post-bacc)' note on there or something, i can think of some good solutions but the best answers aren't always the ones that are actually being implemented

Yup! I have no way to know for sure, but I honestly wouldn't worry about this. Many times the most obvious answer is the correct one. My money would be on the file being passed on to the reviewer with no note. They'd see the 3.3 AMCAS GPA, the 4.0 post-bacc, be well versed in the 32 hour rule, and proceed accordingly.

 

[kcgoldst]

agreed it would by no means be the perfect process, that's why i'm trying to see if anyone has a better understanding... maybe they put a '4.0 (post-bacc)' note on there or something, i can think of some good solutions but the best answers aren't always the ones that are actually being implemented

I would honestly try emailing the school’s admissions office maybe? LSU New Orleans’ admissions office responded to me literally within 20 minutes. I was given the impression by them that the 32 post bacc hours replaced your old GPA. — I’m not sure of the exact means by which this is done but I’d say if they go to the effort of declaring this policy on their admissions page (like LSU does), then the hypothetical 3.3 vs 4.0 post-Bacc student in your scenario will essentially be treated as a 4.0 student in the admissions process. Again, not 100% sure and would recommend emailing the school directly to confirm if this is the case.

 

[deleted555445]

I would honestly try emailing the school’s admissions office maybe? LSU New Orleans’ admissions office responded to me literally within 20 minutes. I was given the impression by them that the 32 post bacc hours replaced your old GPA. — I’m not sure of the exact means by which this is done but I’d say if they go to the effort of declaring this policy on their admissions page (like LSU does), then the hypothetical 3.3 vs 4.0 post-Bacc student in your scenario will essentially be treated as a 4.0 student in the admissions process. Again, not 100% sure and would recommend emailing the school directly to confirm if this is the case.

appreciate the insight!

 

[KnightDoc]

I would honestly try emailing the school’s admissions office maybe? LSU New Orleans’ admissions office responded to me literally within 20 minutes. I was given the impression by them that the 32 post bacc hours replaced your old GPA. — I’m not sure of the exact means by which this is done but I’d say if they go to the effort of declaring this policy on their admissions page (like LSU does), then the hypothetical 3.3 vs 4.0 post-Bacc student in your scenario will essentially be treated as a 4.0 student in the admissions process. Again, not 100% sure and would recommend emailing the school directly to confirm if this is the case.

Right, and then @Screamapillar is worried that person would be screened out for having such high stats!! I am pretty sure that would never happen because they created the policy to give those people a shot, not to give them a shot and then take it away because they did too well while reinventing themselves.

There is a big difference between someone who has straight As since freshman year and a revinventor who does it in a post-bacc, and the school knows the difference. I just don't believe that anyone who needs reinvention in the first place would ever be seen as a candidate for resource protection, no matter how well they do while reinventing themselves.

 

[bronfeatersxx1989]

Right, and then @Screamapillar is worried that person would be screened out for having such high stats!! I am pretty sure that would never happen because they created the policy to give those people a shot, not to give them a shot and then take it away because they did too well while reinventing themselves.

There is a big difference between someone who has straight As since freshman year and a revinventor who does it in a post-bacc, and the school knows the difference. I just don't believe that anyone who needs reinvention in the first place would ever be seen as a candidate for resource protection, no matter how well they do while reinventing themselves.

LSU med student here who used the 32 hour rule successfully and who is now a fourth year acting as one of the student admissions committee members. Applied originally with a 3.2 cumulative GPA (did AWFUL first three years of undergrad with multiple core science Fs but then went straight 4.0 for the next two years until graduating with a victory lap). Met with Dr Eubanks after unsuccessful cycle and learned that the 32 hr rule GPA will replace your undergrad GPA - the undergrad GPA is technically thrown in the garbage. I took one year of upper level bio and chem courses to fulfill my 32 hr requirement and made a 4.0 in that. Re applied with that 4.0 via 32 hr rule and a 512 mcat and was accepted at the very beginning of the cycle.

Can confirm now that I am part of the admissions process that it is as black and white as it sounds. One thing that people may not realize is that the school can document that 32 hr GPA in their admissions stats as long as the applicant has completed the 32 hrs(if you are interviewing in the spring and are actively in the process of finishing up your 32 hrs, you will be out of luck bc your GPA is officially still the pre 32 hr GPA). This is good for the school because better admissions stats = better ranking = better funding. Its a great opportunity for ppl like me who just didnt get it together until a little later. It is as good as it sounds though. At least at lSU.