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nitecap said:
I can adjust VADS and IABP just as good if not better than any 1st or 2nd year anesthesia, IM resident.

I have become quit an expert on the Debakey Medtech axial flow vad and will put my knowledge and experience to any resident.

I have managed many many VAD pt's,

post op i can trouble shoot VAD related issues as well as many anesthesia residents.

Anesthesia has little hands on with vads if any intra op in my experience, and when so they always collaborate with surgery or perfussion before pressing buttons, increasing flows or RPMS, switching drives or even manually pumping and changing filters if needed in emergencies.

Im my experience most anesthesia residents have no clue when It comes to the VAD.

RN make Vad changes sometimes rather than any MD.

Your medical knowledge makes no difference when you are managing a pt and you are not an expert on the device. Quit inflating your education and expertise.

MD does not stand for = I know everything about every medical issue know to man and I am correct all the time, and am to proud to admit I need to learn and study something more in dept. Just curious thought it stood for Medical Doctor or something, maybe Im wrong.

I deleted the rif-raf from this person's post, but the meat of the post is above.

Read it. If this person isnt a doctor basher, then I'm John Tinker.

Nitecap only posts controversially, and I propose he/she should be banned from SDN.
 
Well, I have refrained from posting on these topics mostly because it does no good and benefits nobody. The only thing that these posts do is hurt one another and I will give you an example of how it has hurt some of you.
My current employer was entertaining the possibility of hiring CRNA's for coverage as we take on a new location. The posts here by the majority (however, not all ) and especially a few SRNA's/CRNA's have soured my view so much that I and my partners have convinced our employer to stick with the MD only approach. I have worked with some excellent CRNA's in the past and would enjoy working again with them. But I will not be apart of this recent surgence of militant nurses.

Good Luck
 
wobble wobble shake shake it
 
nitecap said:
People on this forum and constantly talking trash and putting one another down professionally and personally. I question anyones mgmt skills if they do not hire an employee due to here say and especially due to crap and exchanges that take place on this discussion board. Why dont you make a decsion that benefits your practice and your patients. Im sure somewhere out there, there are a ton of CRNA's or AA's that would fit in perfectly to your needs.

Thats like saying in not hiring this guy because he is a republican and I dont like what GW Bush is doing. Hire a person for their qualifications not political views and organizational affiliations. It seems you have been a frequent on this board for sometime. You know the petty crap that goes on here. Sometime I wonder if the posters that are on here 24/7 even practice medicine like they say. If so they must have very low patient loads.


Nitecap, You continue to prove my point. 😴

Nitecap= ignore
 
stuck in OR in last couple of days, return to this post today, and see the post from these CRNA/AAs again...

can we, the unity of medical students, gas residents and practicing anesthesiologists just make one simple request?

"may we keep this forum to qualifying posters (people with adequate education and DEGREES of MD)?"

Graduate Medical Forum > Anesthesiologist>

sorry, we still believe the quality and value of education.

every time we try to make an unifying voice among ourselves, you guys have to jump in and argue about how experienced, and how qualifying you are.

what's your point?

if you are not a physician with MD/DO, you are lost in place.

can you just create your own forum somewhere and vent your frustration somewhere else?

leave us alone,




Noyac said:
Nitecap, You continue to prove my point. 😴

Nitecap= ignore
 
Nitecap...

you missed my whole point... again.... i am not really surprised....
so i will write it in capital letters: "RNs don' t make ANY medical decisions whatsoever".... RNs can ONLY make nursing assessments and follow physician prescribed orders. an RN cannot make changes unless there is a written protocol already set up by a PHYSICIAN.

I am glad that you are acquainted with VADs. I would equate that with any ICU nurse who is acquainted with CVVH, or other mechanical device... any RN who uses a device for a patient needs to be inserviced on that device. Don't fool yourself in any way that you are ACTUALLY managing the patient. Because you aren't. In fact, Medicare does not reimburse you for patient management. The hospital pays your salary to provide nursing assessment and nursing care.

I am tired of nurses coming onto this website without anything substantial to contribute - and then passing off their experience in the ICU providing nursing assessment and following physician prescribed protocols as some kind of powerplay.

and your point that you are biting back to defend yourself.... that is laughable... a tirade that you are able to disconnect the VAD and manually pump the patient is like a little chihuahua nipping at my heels... hardly a bite. Do you know why? Because who do you call when you get into trouble???? do you call for the RN in the other room or do you ask for the doctor on call?

If you are such an expert then I would suspect you probably write the progress notes with management decisions and then bill for them and willing to stand in court to defend your "medical" decisions.

nitecap... you are boring me...
 
:laugh:
nitecap said:
Listen JPP,

I am not at all a Dr. Basher. My brother is a cardiologists and uncle in IM. And I have toned it way down since our last encounter. Tenesma took a shot and of course I am going to shoot back. Actually JWK (which I respect as a poster) and I were actually bringing up some interesting topics. He even desired to start a post on them though it was never done.

A few weeks ago I believe it may have been you that said you would only (not a quote) get into it with someone if they provoke. I have taken that stance myself here. He took a shot at my post specifically so I came back. Its as simple as that. He is a little to proud at times I believe. Hey everyone needs a check sometime. I like this forum altogether, I find many posts interesting, informative, and yes contraversial at times. But I dont go crying when someone takes a shot at me or my profession, I bite back, state my beliefs, and defend myself as I would do in real life situations whether it be public or even employment. If someone has something to say then say it, when you call me out then you can expect me to come right back at you. If you dont give respect then you dont get it back. It's really a simple concept that is not taught in any institution of higher learning whether nursing or medical.

I took no personal shots at anyone until it was provoked. I have seen you defend yourself plenty of times here. There is no difference. Another thing is dont edit my post leaving bits and peices of sentences out to make comments sound like something they are not. I give you this one warning, if it is ignored they you will find your posts totally chopped up and rearranged, and I know you dont want that believe me. SO lets just drop the whole editing posts thing now, for both our good. Copying my post is one thing but leaving stuff to make things sound differently is another.

Fact is I have no problem with Dr.'s what so ever. I can actually say I owe my life to several. SO please enough of the pitty party JPP. I being from Louisiana know that NOLA peeps are mentally tougher than this not getting all im telling on you lets get him kicked off the forum. Who knows maybe you just work or train in NOLA and not from there. Anyways.

I have no problem with you and have no intent in getting into anything with you. But if someone calls me out, then they can expect it right back. My posts are clean. I follow the rules of this forum just as close as you, no matter how many hours a day you are on it. Just bud out man and quit jacking with my post. I promise you will totally regret it if it continues.


i think you need to get laid. I am sure it would be hard for anyone here to volunteer but maybe we can have a martyr in our group to sacrifice himself for the greater good.
 
and your point that you are biting back to defend yourself.... that is laughable... a tirade that you are able to disconnect the VAD and manually pump the patient is like a little chihuahua nipping at my heels...

like the "Yo quiero Taco Bell" chihuahua? :laugh:
 
"MD does not stand for = I know everything about every medical issue know to man and I am correct all the time, and am to proud to admit I need to learn and study something more in dept. Just curious thought it stood for Medical Doctor or something, maybe Im wrong.[/QUOTE]"



Just so you know, it stands for My Directives trump those of a nurse anytime, anywhere. If you aren't comfortable with that, you are free meet the challenge to be the best and go to med school.
 
nitecap said:
Listen JPP,

Copying my post is one thing but leaving stuff to make things sound differently is another.

Just bud out man and quit jacking with my post. I promise you will totally regret it if it continues.


I was content sitting on the sidelines until this. Search my posts if you like and you will find that I seldom chime in on these and certainly don't start these.

First off, his editing changed absolutely nothing regarding the context of your post. Its intent is just as clear in the unabridged version as it is abridged.

Second, case in point of a nurse (seasoned and in their element) taking it upon themselves to alter a physician's orders. I'm on an ICU rotation at the moment and orders were written to transfer a patient that had an MI out of the ICU to telemetry. The pt had the MI 4 days prior (sent to the unit b/c of the MI) and was just chilling, no issues for any of the 4 days and had been improving (primary dX = refractory AML). No one had a problem with the transfer. That evening when telemetry opened a bed the charge nurse wrote an order to hold the transfer because the Troponin was elevated....that's right 4 days post MI the troponin was elevated, who'da thunk it? CKMB almost nil by this time, troponin steady over the course of the day. ICU's are not healthy places to be and this pt needed to get out of it before the pt really got sick. Granted the order needed to be verified by a physician, but really. This is an abbreviated version of the story but there was and is no reason to hold this pt from transfer. Someone looked at the labs and saw that some cardiac enzymes were high but lacked the knowledge of what this meant and took it upon themselves to change the orders.

So being able to read a protocol (much like a cookie recipe) doesn't mean the reader knows why it is written the way it is.

Furthermore, I interpret this
nitecap said:
Just bud out man and quit jacking with my post. I promise you will totally regret it if it continues.

as an "or else" and I must ask "or else WHAT?"

JPP is a good man and I most certainly won't take someone profaning his good name in this manner.
 
i second the motion to ban said muckraker from said forum
 
VentdependenT said:
good lord people


How about you close this after this statement:

Physicians direct medical care of patients.

Nurses follows the direction of physicians.

That is the law....as I understand it.

It doesn't matter if the nurse IS more knowledgeable, experienced, and is right, the law IS that the nurse WILL follow the physician's orders.

Now, please close the thread.
 
militarymd said:
Now, please close the thread.

Second the motion to close the thread.

Ya know, anytime we get a decent discussion going on here someone has to ruin it by gettin' too excited...I feel like Chris Farley in Tommy Boy in that scene with the waitress:

Tommy: That's nice, you look like a Helen. Helen, we're both in sales. Let me tell you why I suck as a salesman. Let's say I go into some guy's office and let's say he's even remotely interested in buying something. Well then I get all excited...I'm like Jojo the idiot circus boy with a pretty new pet. The pet is my possible sale. Oh, my pretty little pet, I love you. So I stroke it, and I pet it, and I massage it...hehe I love it, I love my little naughty pet, you're naughty! Then I take my naughty pet and I go...
[makes ripping noises as he tears apart the roll]
OOHHHHHH! I killed it! I killed my sale! That's when I blow it. That's when people like us gotta forge ahead, Helen, am I right?
 
Do we have to kill the thread? Seems like every time I have an epiphany in a thread, someone has to jack with it (purposefully or not) and send it to SDN hell. How about separating out the last 20 posts?
 
I'm not going to close this thread yet. I think the majority of us can steer this thing in the right direction as there were some thought provoking and certainly informative posts earlier.

Play nice and hold off the vituperative posts folks.

This be a public anouncement by Vent on his day off.

Nite I also suggest you don't threaten posters with "you'll regret it." Not productive by any means.
 
VentdependenT said:
I'm not going to close this thread yet. I think the majority of us can steer this thing in the right direction as there were some thought provoking and certainly informative posts earlier.

Play nice and hold off the vituperative posts folks.

This be a public anouncement by Vent on his day off.

Nite I also suggest you don't threaten posters with "you'll regret it." Not productive by any means.

Vituperative! WOW, Venty! Uze been schooled!
 
militarymd said:
How about you close this after this statement:

Physicians direct medical care of patients.

Nurses follows the direction of physicians.

That is the law....as I understand it.

It doesn't matter if the nurse IS more knowledgeable, experienced, and is right, the law IS that the nurse WILL follow the physician's orders.

Now, please close the thread.

You are right to a certain extent, but the function of the nurse is to protect and advocate for the patient. We are not to mindlessly follow the orders of physicians, nor should they be changed without physician approval (like the example with the Troponin spike). The law for nurses is (in my own words of course) to make sure that the orders are appropriate. If we follow orders that are inappropriate in any way we, as well as the ordering doc will be held liable. The old "The doctor told me to" excuse doesn't quite cut it.

As far as the practice of anesthesia goes...and someone correct me if I am wrong. There has never been a study or any documented evidence to show that CRNA's cannot or should not practice independently because they are less safe/effective than physician anesthesia providers.

I do sooo value the experience and extra education that physicians complete. I believe that they are a great asset to any anesthesia team and should be compensated for their extra education and experience. I personally don't want to supervise any more cases than the one that I am working on. That's why I am going to be a CRNA and not an MD. If MD's are supervising 2-3, however many residents they should be compensated for it. Do think about this. I don't know how much residents get paid, but as a CRNA resident we get $0. Those of you who are practicing now think about how many cases senior CRNA students are running by themselves and who is getting paid for it. I think in actual practice we all work together well to provide great care to all of our patients. The really good MD's and CRNA's work well together and value and respect eachother as valuable members of the anesthesia team.

If states don't opt out of the supervision proprosal the only people who will really be hurt are patients. I cannot recall the statistics at this time, but not only do CRNA's administer over 60% of anesthetics in the US, but a very high percentage of these are in rural areas where CRNA's are the only anesthesia providers. If supervision (by an anesthesiologist) is required this will shut down a lot of rural surgery centers, etc. This will hurt those rural areas, the surgeons who practice there and the residents of the community as a whole.
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
I don't know how much residents get paid, but as a CRNA resident we get $0. Those of you who are practicing now think about how many cases senior CRNA students are running by themselves and who is getting paid for it.

I agree with some of what you say here but one thing raises a question. Residents are paid because they are doctors who have finished medical school. This is the first time that I have heard someone refer to a SRNA as a resident. CRNA's in training are students. Students in this country are not paid. They pay to be a student. This probably has a lot to do with why SRNA's are not paid. Now teachers are paid and well not very well in most circumstances but there is your but they are paid nevertheless.
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
If states don't opt out of the supervision proprosal the only people who will really be hurt are patients. I cannot recall the statistics at this time, but not only do CRNA's administer over 60% of anesthetics in the US, but a very high percentage of these are in rural areas where CRNA's are the only anesthesia providers. If supervision (by an anesthesiologist) is required this will shut down a lot of rural surgery centers, etc. This will hurt those rural areas, the surgeons who practice there and the residents of the community as a whole.
You should really check out what the "opt-out" issue deals with. It is a BILLING issue, dealing with Medicare patients. It has absolutely nothing to do with privately insured patients.

You are correct that the majority of anesthetics in the US are administered by CRNA's, but incorrect in stating that a "very high percentage of these are in rural areas". Most surgery is not done in rural areas - it's done in more urban centers. And in fact, 60-70% of anesthetics in the US involve an anesthesiologist, whether they personally perform the case or provide medical direction or supervision.
 
nitecap said:
JWK,

I take it from your post that you are a very educated and probrably competent and well respected anesthesia provider. I have read some of your AA info and it states that many AA's were former PT's, RT's ect. Many current AA's have at least some experience caring for sick pt's. This was also true years ago for PA's as most had at least some experience with pt care.

Now the average 1st year PA student has minimal and most no pt care experience. I currently attend a CRNA program and take many basic science courses with PA students. Though very bright these students are ages behind the nurses when it comes to clinical application and even the bare minimum like medical terminolgy and things that an advanced practitioner should just be expected to know.

This is a large concern of the PA community from what many of fmy former co workers that are practicing PA's have stated. Many PA students are 20-22 yrs old, fresh out of undergrad, no hospital or pt care experience, no clue really. They remind me of myself as a first year nursing student(under grad)

What is the chance of the A.A. profession taking this route in the future as they begin practicing in more states and attempt to increase numbers. Though I know the education is different for PA's, if the average A.A. in the future is freshout of school with no clinical background what so ever they will be dangerous.

Quick critical thinking and decsion making come from actual clinical experience. The average CRNA student in my class has worked in CVICU's or SICU's 2-5 yrs. They have experience titrating drips, weaning vents, adjusting balloon pumps, many have managed fresh transplant and VAD pt's and titrated high thoracic epidurals as well.

I have met many RT's and PT's and other practitioners that Im sure can make fine AA's. However if average AA student eventually resembles the current average PA student they will be without a doubt way behind the average SRNA. I mean if you really saw what i see everyday in class with the PA's. They do great in anatomy and sciences but have no clue with pt care, much less critical pt care requiring quick descion making.

How will or does the AA community ensure competent applicants and students. What happens if the AA programs end up like present PA programs taking mostly new grad inexperienced students. Do you think the AA programs are that great that someone off the street with say a chemistry or microbiology degree with no clinical experience, no pharm back ground, no experience what so ever even looking at an ecg, or managing fluids for an unstable pt can learn anesthesia and much that goes into the profession as well as deliver safe care puting all that they have learned to use. Can the program educate and develope a competent AA in this short time despite no clinical experience of the entering student.

Believe me I know that I dont know it all, but the experiences that I have gained from managing complex CV and CT ICU pt's have been very valuable to my training. At least I enter the OR having started IV's, pushed meds, managed vented pt's. The PA students dont even know what a stop cock is much less 12 stopcocks tied together with 10 drips infusing thru them.

Mastering the Anesthesia machine is an ongoing task for myself. I couldnt even imagine having to learn even the basic hospital equipment such as pumps and gas supplies and just things that even that average Nursing assistant knows from just being in the hospital.


The concern here is not whether a practioner such as an RT, PT, RN ect can become a competent anesthesia provider. Its whether the AA route will eventually take the PA route and have students that have never even talked to a pt putting pt's to sleep one year into their AA program.

And all CRNA programs are not based on a nursing model sorry. I attend a CRNA program that coexist within a large anesthesia residency program. We learn medical model all the way. Many of our classes are taught by anesthesiologists and we are in the OR with MD's probrably more than we are with CRNA's. We take gross anatomy, phys, neuroscience all with the med students. It is not a fluff program by far. I will send the curriculum if you like.

Most AA students come into the program with patient care experience of some sort. We have RT's, EMT's and paramedics, primary care PA's, even some RN's. Although this experience is no doubt helpful, it is not a requirement for admission to the AA program. What IS required is a strong pre-med background. Organic, physics, biochem, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, and all the others. Yes, we have people coming into the program with non-science majors, but they still have to have the science coursework. Hell, there are PE majors that get into medical school, but I guarantee you not one of them is there without the prerequisite coursework and great MCAT scores.

That strong science background (the same thing that gets college students into medical school) is critical to being able to understand what we do and WHY we do it. I had a professor in my program whose exams were based almost entirely on questions and concepts that we had NEVER seen before in class or in clinical. He wanted to test us on what we DIDN’T know – he wanted to see if we could apply what we had learned to solve a problem we hadn’t seen before. I hated those tests – but I can certainly appreciate the concept. Gee, doesn’t that sound a lot like what we do every day? Problem solving, using the knowledge that we have and applying it – what a radical concept!

Do you really think learning to start an IV is that tough? An A-Line? Managing vents? C’mon – let’s get real. Most of what all of us do in anesthesia school or residency is doing things over and over and over until much of what we do becomes second nature to us. The first 50 intubations are pretty tough. They get easier as we become more experienced. The first few craniotomies or ruptured aneurysms or CABG’s or whatever are all stressful, but all become more familiar as we go along. FOB’s? LMA’s? Spinals, epidurals, and blocks? All the techniques, all the pharmacology, all the physiology – are put into practice with the hundreds and hundreds of procedures each of us does while in training.

Although many SRNA's enter school with extensive ICU experience, many DO NOT. I know many that had 6 months of ICU experience when they were accepted into their program. And let's be honest - most of what you learn in anesthesia school you NEVER did as an ICU nurse. It is much more an acute-care setting than an ICU, requiring the constant attention of one or more providers. You manage everything in the OR - you don't/didn't in the ICU.

And as far as PA's - I know they're fighting among themselves about health care experience requirements. Many of them feel that a PA should be a "second career", not a starting point. That's their problem - obviously I would disagree with that opinion.
 
You are correct that the majority of anesthetics in the US are administered by CRNA's, but incorrect in stating that a "very high percentage of these are in rural areas". Most surgery is not done in rural areas - it's done in more urban centers. And in fact, 60-70% of anesthetics in the US involve an anesthesiologist, whether they personally perform the case or provide medical direction or supervision.[/QUOTE]

Sorry didn't mean to say that the majority of surgeries are done rurally, but that the majority of anesthetics administered rurally or in other underserved areas are administered by CRNA's.
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
As far as the practice of anesthesia goes...and someone correct me if I am wrong. There has never been a study or any documented evidence to show that CRNA's cannot or should not practice independently because they are less safe/effective than physician anesthesia providers.


I'll be the first the say it:

I doubt that there is a difference in outcome between CRNAs and MDs in the overwhelming majority of cases done in the US.

Now here are a few questions for those "militant" CRNAs out there.

Do you need to go to medical school (4 years), do an Internal Medicine residency (3 years) to prescribe Hydrochlorothiazide for isolated simple hypertension? Wouldn't a advanced nurse practitioner do that as well?

Do you need to go do an OB/GYN residency (4 years) to perform a simple vaginal delivery? Wouldn't a nurse midwife be just fine?

Do you need to do a 3 year pediatric residency to do well-child care or treat ear infections? Wouldn't some nurse with advanced training do as well?

The answers to those questions is that you don't need a "doctor" to do any of those things, but we do....why?

The same reason why you have to be 16 and take a licensing exam before you can drive...or get a contracter's license to build houses....etc. There are multiple examples in the rest of society.

To all you "militant" CRNAs, are you saying we should get rid of all these artificial milestones/limitations in everyone's pursuit of a good living?

These markers of training are set in order to minimize chances of bad providers getting through....I grant you it is not perfect, but that is what we have. We have bad anesthesiologists, just like bad CRNAs, but nothing is perfect.

I pay for a life insurance policy, but I don't plan on ever using it.

I think most people would pay for an anesthesiologist AND CRNA and hope never to need the extra level of training that comes with having an anestheiologist.
 
Noyac said:
TXANESTHETIST said:
I don't know how much residents get paid, but as a CRNA resident we get $0. Those of you who are practicing now think about how many cases senior CRNA students are running by themselves and who is getting paid for it.

I agree with some of what you say here but one thing raises a question. Residents are paid because they are doctors who have finished medical school. This is the first time that I have heard someone refer to a SRNA as a resident. CRNA's in training are students. Students in this country are not paid. They pay to be a student. This probably has a lot to do with why SRNA's are not paid. Now teachers are paid and well not very well in most circumstances but there is your but they are paid nevertheless.

I see what you are saying. In my program we are called RRNA. Resident Registered Nurse Anesthetist. Just as a resident is an MD who has finished med school course work, and is doing continued training in their field, and pretty much lives (or at least used to before the restriction of hours a resident can work), an RRNA is a nurse who has completed their their course work and is doing their advanced training in a specialty as well.

It just seems to me that the student/resident is just a technicality. I do think it is important that RRNA's identify themselves as nurses and not as doctors though. Think about it this way. If you go up to your patient and say hi I am the student and I am going to be administering your anesthesia today, I think they are more freaked than if you say, I am the resident nurse anesthetist and I will be administering your anesthesia today. Resident whether you are an MD, RRNA) implies that you have somone supervising you (whether it be that way or not) AA's can easily use the student term because they say "assistant" and this implies just that, that they will be assisting with the anesthetic (whether it be that way or not). Just puts the patient at ease more and gives the nurse credit for the experience and degrees that they possess as well. I hope this explanation makes things a little clearer.
 
militarymd said:
I'll be the first the say it:

I doubt that there is a difference in outcome between CRNAs and MDs in the overwhelming majority of cases done in the US.

Now here are a few questions for those "militant" CRNAs out there.

Do you need to go to medical school (4 years), do an Internal Medicine residency (3 years) to prescribe Hydrochlorothiazide for isolated simple hypertension? Wouldn't a advanced nurse practitioner do that as well?

Do you need to go do an OB/GYN residency (4 years) to perform a simple vaginal delivery? Wouldn't a nurse midwife be just fine?

Do you need to do a 3 year pediatric residency to do well-child care or treat ear infections? Wouldn't some nurse with advanced training do as well?

The answers to those questions is that you don't need a "doctor" to do any of those things, but we do....why?

The same reason why you have to be 16 and take a licensing exam before you can drive...or get a contracter's license to build houses....etc. There are multiple examples in the rest of society.

To all you "militant" CRNAs, are you saying we should get rid of all these artificial milestones/limitations in everyone's pursuit of a good living?

These markers of training are set in order to minimize chances of bad providers getting through....I grant you it is not perfect, but that is what we have. We have bad anesthesiologists, just like bad CRNAs, but nothing is perfect.

I pay for a life insurance policy, but I don't plan on ever using it.

I think most people would pay for an anesthesiologist AND CRNA and hope never to need the extra level of training that comes with having an anestheiologist.

I am in no way militant and understand what you are saying. I have a great degree of respect for providers of all types who have made sacrifices to be where they are. I think providers should be compensated accordingly for their education.

Maybe it's my inexperience speaking but how is having Internal medicine, OBGYN and Pediatric medicine experience an extra "insurance" for providing anesthesia. Not like we are prescribing anything long-term post op, etc.

I hope this is what you meant and that I am replying with the correct question. Thanks
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
Maybe it's my inexperience speaking but how is having Internal medicine, OBGYN and Pediatric medicine experience an extra "insurance" for providing anesthesia. Not like we are prescribing anything long-term post op, etc.

Comparisons being made:

Anesthesiologist ----aa/crna

Internist----np

pediatrician---np

ob/gyn----midwife

etc...etc..etc..
 
"It just seems to me that the student/resident is just a technicality. "


It's ironic and laughable. The difference between student/resident is just "technicality"? If I was the patient, I would NOT let a student, either a medical student or CRNA student to provide anesthesia. I remember once I asked a rotating 4th year med student to draw up a vial of versed and get yelled by the attending anesthesiologist.

Before a resident can start their anesthesia residency, they have gone through 4yrs of undergrad/premed courses (more than half done in biology), more than 2yrs of basic science and 2 years of clinical training in medical school, then completed their 1st year of residency in general training and qualified to be fully licensed physician.

You are saying there's no difference between a nurse (regardless their years of taking orders from physician) and residents? the thinking process, the knowledge base, and to say least, intelligence?

"I do think it is important that RRNA's identify themselves as nurses and not as doctors though."

When a med student interviews a patient, the first thing (s)he says is "hi, i'm a STUDENT physician".

Please, remember you are a student. Realize that you are not a certified and don't compare yourself to physician, please

Actually, in some residency, 1st year residents are not even allowed to obtain consent. So for your own seek of libility issue, please identify yourself as a student, a nursing student.

Your patient deserves to know.
 
TXANESTHETIST,

You are going to kill people.

Your arrogance and over confidence are going to cost people their lives.

I was perusing an advanced practice nursing degree and I realized that I was getting as much propaganda as I was clinical education. I am finishing medical school now and all I can tell you is that you have NO idea how much you don't know. I don't blame you too much because I know it is instilled in you by your chosen profession.

BTW, I think that creating a smoke screen around your title and education by calling yourself "resident blah blah" or whatever is disgusting. You know that you are manipulating the lay publics perception of who you are and your level of education.

Your pts should "freak out" they are being anesthetized by a student NURSE.

You gotta love America, the country where people who can't get into medical school or don't want to be "hassled" with the years of hard work can still play doctor and try to convince everybody they are just as good.

Shameful.
 
kailiedu said:
"It just seems to me that the student/resident is just a technicality. "


It's ironic and laughable. The difference between student/resident is just "technicality"? If I was the patient, I would NOT let a student, either a medical student or CRNA student to provide anesthesia.

Before a resident can start their anesthesia residency, they have gone through 4yrs of undergrad/premed courses (more than half done in biology), more than 2yrs of basic science and 2 years of clinical training in medical school, then completed their 1st year of residency in general training and qualified to be fully licensed physician.

You are saying there's no difference between a nurse (regardless their years of taking orders from physician) and residents? the thinking process, the knowledge base, and to say least, intelligence?

"I do think it is important that RRNA's identify themselves as nurses and not as doctors though."

When a med student interviews a patient, the first thing (s)he says is "hi, i'm a STUDENT physician".

Please, remember you are a student. Realize that you are not a certified and don't compare yourself to physician, please

Actually, in some residency, 1st year residents are not even allowed to obtain consent. So for your own seek of libility issue, please identify yourself as a student, a nursing student.

Your patient deserves to know.

Really full of yourself huh? First of all, I do hope that you realize the IQ of a person has nothing to do with the profession (nurse/physicain) that they choose. I think most everyone realizes this. Never make the mistake of thinking that you are the most intelligent person in the room because you have MD behind your name.

How much anesthesia specific training does an anesthesia resident have?

I am not comparing nurses to physicians. I am sorry if i was unclear. All I am saying is that by saying RRNA you are stating that not a nursing student (which means not an RN), but in fact a RN (certified) doing advanced training (residency) to become a certified RN anesthetist. I think others on the thread got this.

You are right it is important that we educate patients on exactly who we are wheter it be MD, CRNA, AA, PA, etc. Most patients do not understand what all of these things are. I know there are some MD wanna be AA, PA, CRNA's out there and they make those who are proud of their positions look bad.
 
schutzhund said:
TXANESTHETIST,

You are going to kill people.

Your arrogance and over confidence are going to cost people their lives.

I was perusing an advanced practice nursing degree and I realized that I was getting as much propaganda as I was clinical education. I am finishing medical school now and all I can tell you is that you have NO idea how much you don't know. I don't blame you too much because I know it is instilled in you by your chosen profession.

BTW, I think that creating a smoke screen around your title and education by calling yourself "resident blah blah" or whatever is disgusting. You know you that you are manipulating the lay publics perception of who you are and your level of education.

Your pts should "freak out" they are being anesthetized by a student NURSE.

You gotta love America, the country where people who can't get into medical school or don't want to be "hassled" with the years of hard work can still play doctor and try to convince everybody they are just as good.

Shameful.

Believe me I see every day how much I did not know, still don't know and am still learning. I do agree that there is a lot of propaganda all around. In both nursing and medicine. That is why we must as individuals weed through things and do what's right.

I am not at all arrogant or overconfident. I am perfectly aware of where I am right now in my training and realize my strengths and limitations. I am very proud of the history of nurse anesthetists (which I am sure that you are unaware) and want my patients to know exactly who I am.

I think most practicing MD's who have worked with CRNAs realize that a CRNA is a very capable provider of SAFE anesthesia and is trained to deal with any situation which may arise in the OR. I would not find it degrading in any way to ask an MD or other CRNA for advice/help in any situation in which I would find unfamiliar. MDA's and experienced CRNA's are great resources since they do have more years of experience under their belts than would a newly certified CRNA. I appreciate your opinions like everyone else on the board, but there is no need to be ugly and/or degrading to others because you may disagree.
 
TXanesth. I am not getting the militant ideas from you that are coming from others on this site but I think your training site has misled you (as most CRNA training sites have) in the thinking that you are a resident. And yes a CA-1 in anesthesia has little knowledge of anesthesia but has vast knowledge of medicine and physiology and biochem and on and on. I know you take those classes and in some places with the med. students but the understanding is a huge difference. Let me tell you, there is even a huge difference b/w a seasoned CRNA and a Med. Student or resident in this area as well. When the BP is down, the PVR is up, the CVP is 20 , the ventricular septum is flat (not concave), the sats are 85%, what are you gonna do? Inotropes? Vasodilators? Both? Why? Which ones? There is a difference. While the med student may not know exactly what to do (s)he will understand in detail what is going on (this is just an example and by no means am I stating that CRNA's won't understand what is going on). And yes you can look it up now while on the computer but how about while the pt is crashing. I appreciate your comments here and welcome further comments because you seem to be level headed and eager. I just wanted to make the distinction. And I believe you may understand. Keep up the enthusiasm.
 
Noyac said:
TXanesth. I am not getting the militant ideas from you that are coming from others on this site but I think your training site has misled you (as most CRNA training sites have) in the thinking that you are a resident. And yes a CA-1 in anesthesia has little knowledge of anesthesia but has vast knowledge of medicine and physiology and biochem and on and on. I know you take those classes and in some places with the med. students but the understanding is a huge difference. Let me tell you, there is even a huge difference b/w a seasoned CRNA and a Med. Student or resident in this area as well. When the BP is down, the PVR is up, the CVP is 20 , the ventricular septum is flat (not concave), the sats are 85%, what are you gonna do? Inotropes? Vasodilators? Both? Why? Which ones? There is a difference. While the med student may not know exactly what to do (s)he will understand in detail what is going on (this is just an example and by no means am I stating that CRNA's won't understand what is going on). And yes you can look it up now while on the computer but how about while the pt is crashing. I appreciate your comments here and welcome further comments because you seem to be level headed and eager. I just wanted to make the distinction. And I believe you may understand. Keep up the enthusiasm.

Thank you and I appreciate your response. You are right, I am at the beginning of my training so I do understand what is going on in this situation and at this time I would not know what exactly to do. By the time I am finished with my training I should. Thanks to you I'll hunt down the answer to that one! That's what I think it's all about is a sharing of knowledge between provders for improved pt safety. Again thanks for your input. I enjoy the information on this site, you just have to sometimes weed through the bickering and politics...just like on the nursing site. Keep the info flowing!
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
Thank you and I appreciate your response. You are right, I am at the beginning of my training so I do understand what is going on in this situation and at this time I would not know what exactly to do. By the time I am finished with my training I should. Thanks to you I'll hunt down the answer to that one! That's what I think it's all about is a sharing of knowledge between provders for improved pt safety. Again thanks for your input. I enjoy the information on this site, you just have to sometimes weed through the bickering and politics...just like on the nursing site. Keep the info flowing!


You got it! 😍
 
I found this site last week while looking up info on the ASA/AANA resident reimbursement issues. The reason you get so many posts by non-physicians, (like myself, SRNA) is because this site pops up when a search is done on CRNA’s, anesthesiologist, or ASA/AANA. Many of the posts have either been amusing, insulting, or informing. It's usually the insulting ones that seem to get the responses by non-med. It sucks that you have to listen to us paraprofessionals rant when someone makes a comment about CRNA's, but this site is a lighting rod for SRNA's, CRNA's that are looking up info on the relationship between our organizations, or issues between CRNA's and anesthesiologist.

TXANESTHETIST was not creating a smoke screen about who he/she was. He/she said "I am the resident NURSE anesthetist and I will be administering your anesthesia today". Most patients don't even know what a nurse anesthetist is. Most of my family doesn’t even know what one is. It's our job to inform them about who and what we are. This is not a way of masking who we really are. Our badges say we are RESIDENT REGISTERD NURSE ANESTHETIST. I tell my patient I am a nurse anesthesia student. They usually think I'm a student nurse. We will always have to explain what we do and who we are.

I have been a RN for 8 years in the ICU. I am a guy (hold the Fouker jokes 🙂 ) so some patients think I'm a MD. I NEVER pretend or mislead patients. I make it clear that I am a RN. Some older patients persist and ask when I'm going to med school. I tell them never. I don't want to be a doctor. If they eventually offer a doctorate in nurse science, I will obtain it. I will never call myself Dr. so and so to patients. I also know other CRNA’s and nurses who would ridicule anyone that did want to be called Dr. in a clinical setting.

What some of you do not seem to understand is that intelligence is not the only factor in going to med school. You have to be very intelligent, but you also have to have ambition and a huge amount of discipline. I totally respect that. I couldn't do it.

I can become a CRNA. That's what I want to do, and it's hard and challenging. Again, not as hard and challenging as being a MD, but I won't work for 2 1/2 years, and I will owe about 100 grand after I graduate (my wife is a teacher, so not much financial help there 🙂. I have to sacrifice a small part of my life to do this, so I don't want to be patronized.

I would like to work with anesthesiologist that understand the importance of my role within the anesthesia team, and RESPECT what I do. CRNA's help make a lucrative practice for anesthesiologist, and we make some pretty good jack also.

If some of you are PO'd that CRNA's/SRNA's are posting on this site, you have a right to be. We should go to ALLNURSES and vent. However, anesthesiologist don’t frequent there much. Just remember, many of us want to have an open, no holes barred, dialogue with anesthesiologist to help find out what issues are so divisive. I personally like these threads, warts and all, because it gives everyone a chance to let out their frustrations, and it shows a side to the anesthesiologist/anesthetist debate we probably won't see in our workplace.

There are many other threads in this forum that anesthesiologist can discuss clinical and other issues. One thread with some anesthesiologist/CRNA debate won't hurt. The ASA and AANA haven’t been able to work out their differences for over 70 years. It’s no wonder we can’t either.

After reading this thread, I question whether the AANA is doing the right thing in challenging reimbursement for anesthesia residents. This is mainly because of a post by jetproppilot. I think CRNA’s, and anesthesiologist, need to hear both sides.

One more thing, are anesthesiologist offended when they are referred to as MDA’s. I don’t want to start a bunch of s**t, I just really want to know.
 
Great post above...hopefully we CAN keep at least one thread open, and at least a few reasonable posts from both perspectives can get through. We will all be working together, for our patients, and there needs to be a greater understanding of the issues that we have to deal with for those us just getting started.
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
Maybe it's my inexperience speaking but how is having Internal medicine, OBGYN and Pediatric medicine experience an extra "insurance" for providing anesthesia. Not like we are prescribing anything long-term post op, etc.

I'll throw in my two cents on this question: Having experiences in subspecialties as the decision maker and in making correct diagnoses gives you an understanding of the pathologies that are affecting your surgical patients as an anesthesiologist.

When I have a patient come to the OR with carcinoid syndrome, Treacher Collins, Down's Syndrome, multiple myeloma, bipolar disorder, endometriosis, etc., I know what the conditions are, know the medicines being used to treat them, know the implications of what the condition and medications will have on anesthesia, and above all else have the direct experience of having seen, diagnosed, and treated the condition. Each time you experience the difficulty in determining and correctly diagnosing a simple or complex pathological process, you have added another invaluable facet to your decision making process and skills. That complex, intensive, AND diverse training is what makes a physician what he or she is: a mosaic of all of the experiences they receive through undergraduate, medical, and residency training. At the minimum, 12 years of higher education with the last eight covering EVERY discipline of medicine, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, anatomy, etc.

That is why physicians earn the right to be the leaders of their fields. They have earned their stripes by making it through training that is both grueling and rewarding, knowing that every decision they make can mean life or death for a patient. It is the single most motivating factor in every physician's training that makes them learn as much as they possibly can.

As to the designations of student and resident, this is more than just a semantics issue. It goes toward trying to imply a higher level of training comparable to a physician resident. Why else would the SRNA designation be dropped when the training provided has not changed? It is a precedent that is going to be severely tested if or when the AANA tries to push its clinical doctorate training:

". . . in the American Journal of Nursing (Volume 105(5), May 2005, pp 28-29) that they are entertaining the idea of adding a semester of study to CRNA programs and granting a clinical doctorate. According to Frank Maziarski, MS, CLNC, CRNA, president of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists."

ONE SEMESTER of additional training will now give you a doctorate degree? Not only that, but ANYONE in CRNA training can simply sign up for it under that plan. You don't have to be a good SRNA, you just have to sign up for it. What then will CRNA's call themselves? CRDNA's?

This is a serious question. It is a reflection of the effort to minimize training and equalize the PERCEPTION of the training and abilities of health care providers across the spectrum. This isn't unique to anesthesiology. Ophthamology is experiencing the same issues with optometrists trying to push for surgical rights. Heck, even chiropractors are pushing for expanded treatment scopes with techniques best utilized under the perspective of an orthopedist or pain management specialist.

When I read people's attempt to belittle or minimize physician training, I can't help but wonder what this will all lead to and what patients will think of it.
 
TXANESTHETIST said:
I am in no way militant and understand what you are saying. I have a great degree of respect for providers of all types who have made sacrifices to be where they are. I think providers should be compensated accordingly for their education.

Maybe it's my inexperience speaking but how is having Internal medicine, OBGYN and Pediatric medicine experience an extra "insurance" for providing anesthesia. Not like we are prescribing anything long-term post op, etc.

I hope this is what you meant and that I am replying with the correct question. Thanks

Believe me, Dude, your posts are not being interpreted as militant. Military was not referring to you.
 
Noyac said:
TXanesth. I am not getting the militant ideas from you that are coming from others on this site but I think your training site has misled you (as most CRNA training sites have) in the thinking that you are a resident. And yes a CA-1 in anesthesia has little knowledge of anesthesia but has vast knowledge of medicine and physiology and biochem and on and on. I know you take those classes and in some places with the med. students but the understanding is a huge difference. Let me tell you, there is even a huge difference b/w a seasoned CRNA and a Med. Student or resident in this area as well. When the BP is down, the PVR is up, the CVP is 20 , the ventricular septum is flat (not concave), the sats are 85%, what are you gonna do? Inotropes? Vasodilators? Both? Why? Which ones? There is a difference. While the med student may not know exactly what to do (s)he will understand in detail what is going on (this is just an example and by no means am I stating that CRNA's won't understand what is going on). And yes you can look it up now while on the computer but how about while the pt is crashing. I appreciate your comments here and welcome further comments because you seem to be level headed and eager. I just wanted to make the distinction. And I believe you may understand. Keep up the enthusiasm.

This issue came up in my previous gig with our SRNA program....the SRNA's were introducing themselves as "anesthesia residents".....I was like, "Dude, you're not a resident!"...but after closer review, the students were just regurgitating what they had been told...and their nametags from their school do in fact say RRNA ....

is this yet another scheme by the AANA to level the playing field?

I mean, geez, as pre-meds and med tudents the level of resident is worshipped....and yet after a yaer (or whatever) of CRNA academics the SRNAs enter the clinical realm as a "resident".

Again, to no fault of the students.
 
jetproppilot said:
Believe me, Dude, your posts are not being interpreted as militant. Military was not referring to you.

jet is right. The ones I'm referring to know who they are.



Let's face it. What it comes down to is Money.

CRNAs want more of it. Anesthesiologists don't want to give any up.

The battles over turf is not about patient care or autonomy....what it boils down to is money, and, you know what???? It is very sad.

The only people who suffer is probably the patients.

What is the right answer? I don't know.


But I think we should call a spade a spade......CRNAs want more money and MDs don't want to give it up.
 
BEA said:
I found this site last week while looking up info on the ASA/AANA resident reimbursement issues. The reason you get so many posts by non-physicians, (like myself, SRNA) is because this site pops up when a search is done on CRNA’s, anesthesiologist, or ASA/AANA. Many of the posts have either been amusing, insulting, or informing. It's usually the insulting ones that seem to get the responses by non-med. It sucks that you have to listen to us paraprofessionals rant when someone makes a comment about CRNA's, but this site is a lighting rod for SRNA's, CRNA's that are looking up info on the relationship between our organizations, or issues between CRNA's and anesthesiologist.

TXANESTHETIST was not creating a smoke screen about who he/she was. He/she said "I am the resident NURSE anesthetist and I will be administering your anesthesia today". Most patients don't even know what a nurse anesthetist is. Most of my family doesn’t even know what one is. It's our job to inform them about who and what we are. This is not a way of masking who we really are. Our badges say we are RESIDENT REGISTERD NURSE ANESTHETIST. I tell my patient I am a nurse anesthesia student. They usually think I'm a student nurse. We will always have to explain what we do and who we are.

I have been a RN for 8 years in the ICU. I am a guy (hold the Fouker jokes 🙂 ) so some patients think I'm a MD. I NEVER pretend or mislead patients. I make it clear that I am a RN. Some older patients persist and ask when I'm going to med school. I tell them never. I don't want to be a doctor. If they eventually offer a doctorate in nurse science, I will obtain it. I will never call myself Dr. so and so to patients. I also know other CRNA’s and nurses who would ridicule anyone that did want to be called Dr. in a clinical setting.

What some of you do not seem to understand is that intelligence is not the only factor in going to med school. You have to be very intelligent, but you also have to have ambition and a huge amount of discipline. I totally respect that. I couldn't do it.

I can become a CRNA. That's what I want to do, and it's hard and challenging. Again, not as hard and challenging as being a MD, but I won't work for 2 1/2 years, and I will owe about 100 grand after I graduate (my wife is a teacher, so not much financial help there 🙂. I have to sacrifice a small part of my life to do this, so I don't want to be patronized.

I would like to work with anesthesiologist that understand the importance of my role within the anesthesia team, and RESPECT what I do. CRNA's help make a lucrative practice for anesthesiologist, and we make some pretty good jack also.

If some of you are PO'd that CRNA's/SRNA's are posting on this site, you have a right to be. We should go to ALLNURSES and vent. However, anesthesiologist don’t frequent there much. Just remember, many of us want to have an open, no holes barred, dialogue with anesthesiologist to help find out what issues are so divisive. I personally like these threads, warts and all, because it gives everyone a chance to let out their frustrations, and it shows a side to the anesthesiologist/anesthetist debate we probably won't see in our workplace.

There are many other threads in this forum that anesthesiologist can discuss clinical and other issues. One thread with some anesthesiologist/CRNA debate won't hurt. The ASA and AANA haven’t been able to work out their differences for over 70 years. It’s no wonder we can’t either.

After reading this thread, I question whether the AANA is doing the right thing in challenging reimbursement for anesthesia residents. This is mainly because of a post by jetproppilot. I think CRNA’s, and anesthesiologist, need to hear both sides.

One more thing, are anesthesiologist offended when they are referred to as MDA’s. I don’t want to start a bunch of s**t, I just really want to know.

Man, its refreshing to see posts from BEA and Texasanesthetist . Where have you guys been? Obviously at a different level that Nitecap and the other NON MD BASHERS on this MD forum.

Welcome.
 
jetproppilot said:
Man, its refreshing to see posts from BEA and Texasanesthetist . Where have you guys been? Obviously at a different level that Nitecap and the other NON MD BASHERS on this MD forum.

Welcome.

No need to bash any group as a whole...only individuals who sometimes deserve it. I think there is education needed on both the MD & CRNA sides about eachother, our responsibilities, realm of practice, etc. Just wish the ASA, AANA, federal government could work things out better. Too much PRIDE, MONEY, & POLITICS involved. Those things usually ruin everything though don't they. I have actually researched the history of CRNA's and anesthesiologist. I wish more folks on both sides would do the same. MD's would see why CRNA's want their independence and CRNA's will understand why MD's are so against this. Education is the key to understanding eachother.
 
Andy15430 said:
For sure. TxAnesthetist has turned this thread around...thanks for contributing!

Thanks. I just figure that I can get my points across without being nasty and rude. I see enough of it here and on all nurses. Makes us all look bad and unprofessional. 😉

Look forward to contributing in the future and taking away what knowledge I can from the site. Thanks for the welcome everyone!
 
militarymd said:
I'll be the first the say it:

I doubt that there is a difference in outcome between CRNAs and MDs in the overwhelming majority of cases done in the US.

Now here are a few questions for those "militant" CRNAs out there.

Do you need to go to medical school (4 years), do an Internal Medicine residency (3 years) to prescribe Hydrochlorothiazide for isolated simple hypertension? Wouldn't a advanced nurse practitioner do that as well?

Do you need to go do an OB/GYN residency (4 years) to perform a simple vaginal delivery? Wouldn't a nurse midwife be just fine?

Do you need to do a 3 year pediatric residency to do well-child care or treat ear infections? Wouldn't some nurse with advanced training do as well?

The answers to those questions is that you don't need a "doctor" to do any of those things, but we do....why?

The same reason why you have to be 16 and take a licensing exam before you can drive...or get a contracter's license to build houses....etc. There are multiple examples in the rest of society.

To all you "militant" CRNAs, are you saying we should get rid of all these artificial milestones/limitations in everyone's pursuit of a good living?

These markers of training are set in order to minimize chances of bad providers getting through....I grant you it is not perfect, but that is what we have. We have bad anesthesiologists, just like bad CRNAs, but nothing is perfect.

I pay for a life insurance policy, but I don't plan on ever using it.

I think most people would pay for an anesthesiologist AND CRNA and hope never to need the extra level of training that comes with having an anestheiologist.

That was a very fair and welcome post military.
 
jetproppilot said:
Man, its refreshing to see posts from BEA and Texasanesthetist . Where have you guys been? Obviously at a different level that Nitecap and the other NON MD BASHERS on this MD forum.

Welcome.



Since I wandered into this site, I've watched as the bashers have made SRNA/CRNA's look bad, and incited the MD's to post some pretty ugly responses. Eventually the arguments degrade to a pitifully low level. I wasn't going to post until TXANETHETIST came in and turned things around.

There is some great info on this site, clinical and political. I hope the discussions stay lively and informative, and that SRNA/CRNA's can provide something beneficial to the threads.

Thank you for the welcome. 🙂
 
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