The Capella University Experience

[2012PhD]

Wow 2012 PhD, do you have proof to back up your accusations? I am completing my disseration studying the effects of Cognitive Therapy in children with learning disabilities. How about you?

Capella does hire aggressive recruiters so i can ask questions when someone like you and Dr. Lucy just opened an account on August 19 and has never posted here before. The rest of us have posted regularly.

When you look at Domenuis's review, it was just more well-rounded and substance. Dr. Lucy just said a ton of fluff in particular. Read her review. Either she is a recruiter or something is off with her.

I'm at an apa accredited internship (VA) this year.

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[roubs]

Capella and other for profit schools hire people to post fake reviews on online websites. Basically, all these people just created usernames and are posting for the first time here so i don't even know if they are actual students or recruiters.

I was just going to make a sockpuppet call-out. You beat me to it!

 

[RSDBP]

Great question. To me, there is a huge difference between advanced academic study in an area (taking post graduate courses that involve lectures, readings, tests, and writing assignments) and learning through actually designing and implementing research projects (grant writing, getting approved IRB, recruitment, data collection, analysis, publishing, attending conferences) and through actually seeing patients (providing therapy and conducting assessments on externships, internship, and post-doc). In psychology, specifically, few people in the general public will look at Dr. Psychology and intuitively know that this person has not actually produced research, taught, or practiced. And also, not to be too cynical, I highly doubt that people freely disclose this aspect of their "general" training. Using the title to sell books (despite not having the training described above) or, in your case, to secure a job scientific director, suggests that you are quite willing to let people think you have aquired expertise through traditional means. Just out of curiousity, what does your job entail? Are you supervising grant funded research? Clinical trials funded by the pharmaceutical co?

The job I have now was a promotion from my previous position. In fact, my company is paying for my education@Capella, and there hasn't been any hiding, or allowing other to assume anything. Transparency is the greatest defense when people challenge you on education, or credentials. The biggest positive of education is to empower you to move from a consumer, to a producer. I don't see patients, nor do I want to. I work with MDs to understand the current research and trends in patient care as it related to medications. I also defend their reserach proposals to my global colleagues to support their research and innovation. I was in clinical research for 14yrs, and learned the ins and outs through first hand experience and adjudicating medical diagnosis. I worked in the pre-clinical neurpharmacology lab as an undergrad. I don't let people assume facts which are incorrect or false. Integrity is what separates the person from the myths.

In my disseration, I have to deal with the IRB, recruitment etc, just as my sites did when I was a clinical research associate.

Hopes this helps, and let me know if you have other questions.

Regards,

 

[RSDBP]

Capella does hire aggressive recruiters so i can ask questions when someone like you and Dr. Lucy just opened an account on August 19 and has never posted here before. The rest of us have posted regularly.

When you look at Domenuis's review, it was just more well-rounded and substance. Dr. Lucy just said a ton of fluff in particular. Read her review. Either she is a recruiter or something is off with her.

I'm at an apa accredited internship (VA) this year.

I appreciate the follow up. I was curious about why you seemed so down on Capella? I have had a good experience, but I don't have your perspective, so I appreciate your thoughts. I'll take a look at her review. Thanks for pointing me there. And certainly if it is warranted, it is warranted.

Thanks

 

[domineus]

To quell this one, some students are vehement about supporting their school, which is fine (heck if you want I can provide some recent posting images from the main campus boards that I haven't even really posted to yet about it if you will) because they surprisingly mirror everything that they stated here. And I wish they were paid to do so.

2011PhD thanks for the compliment. To be honest, I really wanted to give a balanced review while not maintaining an unrealistic bubble image (or what someone on Capella said romantic idealization of a school). That romanticism won't do much when you are being underpaid and a doctor wondering what did I sign up for.

I am actually quite surprised and curious about the individuals that established themselves with a Capella PhD. But it also sounds like not an expert of the field but just acquiring knowledge to acquire it. And that has its place, may not be clinically inclined, but the place is there. Wha? Jeopardy is popular!

As far as the main issue, the stories of Capella creating non competent clinicians are rampant, or students that dislike the program after an advisor left for dissertation, or that they can't do anything with their doctorate is increasing despite the shutdown of the capella sucks website (anyone remember that I sure do)

The field of psychology cannot evolve with romantic ideals of what a school should be versus the current reality of your doctorate, how to offset loans, how to work and become successful. The majority of the people with glowing reviews are established. I'm not established. I'm a transitioned student with only 2 papers in the biological sciences trying to establish myself as a reputable psychologist. And everyday with the changes of the field the dynamic has changed. When even HR sees Capella, I am surprisingly turned down from a job (when in fact there is no surprised).

Am I despondent? Sure. I still maintain in learning theory, Capella provides a great resource because sometimes we are self motivated, but also need a reason to excel and retain. But clinical psychology is FAR more than learning psychological theory. Again, we are dealing with human lives, not pigs!

And to finally answer a question of what to do
If I can't get an internship by october 26, take a leave of absence and start toward the nurse practitioner path.

 

[roubs]

The job I have now was a promotion from my previous position. In fact, my company is paying for my education@Capella, and there hasn't been any hiding, or allowing other to assume anything. Transparency is the greatest defense when people challenge you on education, or credentials. The biggest positive of education is to empower you to move from a consumer, to a producer. I don't see patients, nor do I want to. I work with MDs to understand the current research and trends in patient care as it related to medications. I also defend their reserach proposals to my global colleagues to support their research and innovation. I was in clinical research for 14yrs, and learned the ins and outs through first hand experience and adjudicating medical diagnosis. I worked in the pre-clinical neurpharmacology lab as an undergrad. I don't let people assume facts which are incorrect or false. Integrity is what separates the person from the myths.

In my disseration, I have to deal with the IRB, recruitment etc, just as my sites did when I was a clinical research associate.

Hopes this helps, and let me know if you have other questions.

Regards,

Nothing in what you do requires a Ph.D. Sounds like you got a nice resume padder, much like the MBA degree. So you probably got a nice bump in your earnings without having to pay Capella a dime. Cheers to that, but if a 23 y/o thinks they can start a career with a degree from Capella they are drinking some serious kool-aid.

 

[2012PhD]

The job I have now was a promotion from my previous position. In fact, my company is paying for my education@Capella, and there hasn't been any hiding, or allowing other to assume anything. Transparency is the greatest defense when people challenge you on education, or credentials. The biggest positive of education is to empower you to move from a consumer, to a producer. I don't see patients, nor do I want to. I work with MDs to understand the current research and trends in patient care as it related to medications. I also defend their reserach proposals to my global colleagues to support their research and innovation. I was in clinical research for 14yrs, and learned the ins and outs through first hand experience and adjudicating medical diagnosis. I worked in the pre-clinical neurpharmacology lab as an undergrad. I don't let people assume facts which are incorrect or false. Integrity is what separates the person from the myths.

In my disseration, I have to deal with the IRB, recruitment etc, just as my sites did when I was a clinical research associate.

Hopes this helps, and let me know if you have other questions.

Regards,

Someone like you is actually a good candidate for a Capella education. You currently have a job and want to get additional training for a promotion. Plus, your company is paying for the education and you want to continue working full-time. This makes sense to me.

I am more concerned about people without work experience who take out 150-200K to go to Capella and hope to become therapists only to realize that they can't ever get licensed.

 

[domineus]

Nothing in what you do requires a Ph.D. Sounds like you got a nice resume padder, much like the MBA degree. So you probably got a nice bump in your earnings without having to pay Capella a dime. Cheers to that, but if a 23 y/o thinks they can start a career with a degree from Capella they are drinking some serious kool-aid.

shh it was grape mixed with cherry flavored FYI
But seriously even I thought I could and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, no you can't...AT ALL

 

[RSDBP]

Nothing in what you do requires a Ph.D. Sounds like you got a nice resume padder, much like the MBA degree. So you probably got a nice bump in your earnings without having to pay Capella a dime. Cheers to that, but if a 23 y/o thinks they can start a career with a degree from Capella they are drinking some serious kool-aid.

You might be right about starting out. My job does require an MD, PhD, or PharmD, and I recently moved into the role given the fact I am finishing up my dissertation. I was fortunate, and it was part of my development plan agreed to with the company. I wonder if there are people who are looking at the educational process differently? To your point, expecting a degree to get them something it might not. Even more, there students coming from other programs who most likely experience the same problems. Just a thought.

 

[RSDBP]

Someone like you is actually a good candidate for a Capella education. You currently have a job and want to get additional training for a promotion. Plus, your company is paying for the education and you want to continue working full-time. This makes sense to me.

I am more concerned about people without work experience who take out 150-200K to go to Capella and hope to become therapists only to realize that they can't ever get licensed.

For some reason I believe they overhauled their clinical program to help people be clear about expectations. I never paid much attention to this, since I didn't intend to go into practice. Most likely due to no APA accredidation.

 

[2012PhD]

And to finally answer a question of what to do
If I can't get an internship by october 26, take a leave of absence and start toward the nurse practitioner path.

Sounds like a good plan. Better than beating your head against a wall while you are paying tuition and waiting for an internship.

Are the internships paid?

 

[domineus]

Sounds like a good plan. Better than beating your head against a wall while you are paying tuition and waiting for an internship.

Are the internships paid?

bwhahahaha that's a negative =(
so far the three internships I applied to denied me so I'll see...I have until October 26 to find it and in Chicago I intern in January. what happens in January in Chicago for psych students? ACEPT. So the competition will be just as fierce if not moreso. I said I would make a concerted effort to try and nail an internship honestly but if its no go, then nothing I can do.

That said its ironic that there are a lot of frustrated Capella users on the main Capella boards calling the university a scam almost around the same time I made this post. Ironic I think...

 

[2012PhD]

bwhahahaha that's a negative =(
so far the three internships I applied to denied me so I'll see...I have until October 26 to find it and in Chicago I intern in January. what happens in January in Chicago for psych students? ACEPT. So the competition will be just as fierce if not moreso. I said I would make a concerted effort to try and nail an internship honestly but if its no go, then nothing I can do.

That said its ironic that there are a lot of frustrated Capella users on the main Capella boards calling the university a scam almost around the same time I made this post. Ironic I think...

If your angry mom becomes a problem, then have her talk to us.

 

[RSDBP]

bwhahahaha that's a negative =(
so far the three internships I applied to denied me so I'll see...I have until October 26 to find it and in Chicago I intern in January. what happens in January in Chicago for psych students? ACEPT. So the competition will be just as fierce if not moreso. I said I would make a concerted effort to try and nail an internship honestly but if its no go, then nothing I can do.

That said its ironic that there are a lot of frustrated Capella users on the main Capella boards calling the university a scam almost around the same time I made this post. Ironic I think...

Do they offer help or insight into this case? I didn't have the same requirements, so I didn't know if they can help you out.

 

[domineus]

If your angry mom becomes a problem, then have her talk to us.

I hope she'll be more lenient. We'll see. No promises. It is frustrating though that much I can say.

Do they offer help or insight into this case? I didn't have the same requirements, so I didn't know if they can help you out.

Actually its more posts that love capella and they are tired of hearing students complain. Honestly even though I have given a review of it, I can focus more time on standardizing a WRAT4 test for my ficticious client. Yeah takes 20 minutes to score and interpret honestly which can make my final paper done like 4 and a weeks early but...more time to get internships.

I dunno why the students are so closeminded on the community forums. As I said before, it's good to like your school but not to the point of ignorance of the reality of clinical psychology. Which is dour

 

[O Gurl]

Maybe I am having a case of the Friday afternoon 's, but I am getting more confused with each response you post.

The job I have now was a promotion from my previous position. In fact, my company is paying for my education@Capella, and there hasn't been any hiding, or allowing other to assume anything. Transparency is the greatest defense when people challenge you on education, or credentials. The biggest positive of education is to empower you to move from a consumer, to a producer.

You said a lot here, without saying anything at all. You mention transparency, but are not being clear with very straightforward questions.

I don't see patients, nor do I want to. I work with MDs to understand the current research and trends in patient care as it related to medications. I also defend their reserach proposals to my global colleagues to support their research and innovation. I was in clinical research for 14yrs, and learned the ins and outs through first hand experience and adjudicating medical diagnosis. I worked in the pre-clinical neurpharmacology lab as an undergrad. I don't let people assume facts which are incorrect or false. Integrity is what separates the person from the myths.

In my disseration, I have to deal with the IRB, recruitment etc, just as my sites did when I was a clinical research associate.

Hopes this helps, and let me know if you have other questions.

Regards

As part of a pharmaceutical company, you help MD's understand research trends? Hmm... ok. So you worked in a traditional lab as an undergrad. Did your doctorate at a nontraditional program, but it sounds like you did IRB, recruitment, etc. for your dissertation, too. So how does that work? Does Capella have a relationship with a university based program that will let Capella students work on their projects? Does Capella have their own active researcher? If so, where is there lab located? Were you able to publish/present enough to build a vitae that would make you a candidate to help MDs understand pharmaceutical research? I think that is the crux of my befuzzlement. As a distance learning program, how does Capella provide experiences for students to get this kind of job?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Wow 2012 PhD, do you have proof to back up your accusations? I am completing my disseration studying the effects of Cognitive Therapy in children with learning disabilities. How about you?

I believe this is part of the pending litigation against for-profit universities. I haven't read the official filings (yet), but I believe I read a press release that included this as part of the accused "predatory practices".

 

[cara susanna]

I agree that the pro-Capella people posting here are not the kind I'm concerned about: the 20-something fresh out of undergrad who wants a psych PhD and thinks that this is a viable route.

 

[Ollie123]

I agree that the pro-Capella people posting here are not the kind I'm concerned about: the 20-something fresh out of undergrad who wants a psych PhD and thinks that this is a viable route.

Definitely true, although I really wish there was some other label for these degrees than "PhD". Even the posts of those supporting Capella make it pretty clear that we are not dealing with a "real" PhD in terms of time commitment, responsibilities, opportunities, etc. I'm all for people furthering their education for the sake of education, but let's find a label that more accurately portrays what it actually is, rather than pretending its equivalent to a PhD in clinical psych from a traditional university.

 

[RSDBP]

Maybe I am having a case of the Friday afternoon 's, but I am getting more confused with each response you post.



You said a lot here, without saying anything at all. You mention transparency, but are not being clear with very straightforward questions.



As part of a pharmaceutical company, you help MD's understand research trends? Hmm... ok. So you worked in a traditional lab as an undergrad. Did your doctorate at a nontraditional program, but it sounds like you did IRB, recruitment, etc. for your dissertation, too. So how does that work? Does Capella have a relationship with a university based program that will let Capella students work on their projects? Does Capella have their own active researcher? If so, where is there lab located? Were you able to publish/present enough to build a vitae that would make you a candidate to help MDs understand pharmaceutical research? I think that is the crux of my befuzzlement. As a distance learning program, how does Capella provide experiences for students to get this kind of job?

Please explain with regard to your confusion. What question did I not answer straightforwardly for you?

With regard to the dissertation there is an IRB at Capella through which you have to get approval for your study, just as you would through any other research institution. You have to submit all components, including participant safeguards in order to receive approval to proceed. You are responsible for the the design, approval, recruitment, data capture, analysis, and reporting of your findings. If you are utilizing participants in your community, why do you need a lab at another university? Keep in mind I did not go the clinical psych route. Most clinical research does not take place at an institution which has its own IRB. Centralized IRBs are utilized by nearly 70% of research centers (from my experiences). This is similar to how Capella's IRB functions. Most of the research is not lab based for students conducting the dissertation independent research.

You would be amazed at how little MDs know (in some cases) regarding cutting edge treatments. There is also quite a bit of confusion regarding data from clinical trials, and how that applies to their patient population. This is point where the line between efficacy and effectivness is blurred. For example if an atypical antipsychotic shows reduction in PANSS scores, does that mean that is the best treatment option for every patient? No, clearly not. I work with physicians to understand from the receptor affinity profiles of medications what the predicted outcomes for patients may be. Understanding this can mean the difference from prescribing the right medication, and saddling someone with parksonism induced by the wrong dopamine antagonist. This is where the critical thinking comes into play. This is the main take away from what I learned at Capella. Understanding research methodologies contributes greatly to debunking junk science and avoiding the acceptance of underpowered, confound riddled studies.

For me personally, the education has been good, as it allowed me to leverage my experience in clinical research along with my strong analytical thinking via the PhD to qualify for the position. Without the skills from the PhD program, I wouldn't be able to do the job. It is less about the institution, and more about how you apply your education.

Thoughts?

 

[RSDBP]

Definitely true, although I really wish there was some other label for these degrees than "PhD". Even the posts of those supporting Capella make it pretty clear that we are not dealing with a "real" PhD in terms of time commitment, responsibilities, opportunities, etc. I'm all for people furthering their education for the sake of education, but let's find a label that more accurately portrays what it actually is, rather than pretending its equivalent to a PhD in clinical psych from a traditional university.

Interesting thought. What do you see as the main difference?

Just curious.

 

[Ollie123]

Interesting thought. What do you see as the main difference?

Just curious.

Well for one, the simple notion that one can work full-time while working on a PhD. Unless time to completion averages 12 years at Capella, that is a pretty clear indicator that the workload isn't even approaching on what it would be at a typical program. Their clinical program is a separate matter we won't touch on for the moment (though this obviously applies there as well) but everything that's been said indicates to me that the overall "model" (not speaking to difficulty, etc.) is closer to undergrad, where courses are the primary focus along with the dissertation. If I'm understanding what you (and the other Capella folks who have come here before) have said, it sounds like aside from the dissertation, coursework is really the only other main component of education. Coursework is typically just a drop in the bucket on top of very extensive research activities (I don't know anyone who only worked on their own study), clinical activities (for those in clinical), departmental services, teaching, etc. From what folks have said, it certainly doesn't sound like Capella's coursework is any more intensive than most other places, but it sounds like due to the nature of the delivery system, there is really little offered beyond the courses. That might work out okay for people that have obtained those experiences on their own, but it doesn't sound like those are required parts of the program. With that, its certainly not the "same" as having a program sign off that they have observed you doing all those things, provided formal training in them, and believe you can do them well. It also seriously limits opportunities for training in certain areas, many of which I view as critical to psychological training but require one to be on-site (e.g. psychophysiology).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Interesting thought. What do you see as the main difference?

Just curious.

The day to day experience is completely different. A traditional doctoral program is about immersion. Only a small portion of your learning is in the classroom, as the majority of learning happens with your research mentor(s), clinical supervisors, and fellow students. Online programs push classroom learning as the main place to learn, and then the "research" portion is something akin to a self study. None of the "outside the classroom" learning is re-created, and frankly the amount of time invested is not the same.

As a 1st year in a traditional program you may have classes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning, with Tuesdays, Thursday, and Friday afternoon dedicated to research. When you aren't in class you are reviewing journal articles, meeting with your mentor(s), collecting data, shadowing at the clinical, TA'ing, attending didactics, meeting with classsmates to review material, etc. Saturday and Sunday are usually for studying and reviewing your material for the coming week.

I think another huge difference is the expectations of a traditional program. I think with very few exceptions, training is seen as the priority. Students are expected to plan their life around their training. You can still find time for yourself here and there, but it is far from a 9-5. Tuesday afternoon was "my time" my 1st year. I carved that out to get stuff done around the house, see the doctor, etc. While you have some flexibility with your schedule, you still need to get everything done. Doctoral training is not for everyone, but some can make it work.

*edit*

I responded from the perspective of a balanced clinical program. If a person is pursuing a non-licensable training, the research part doubles or triples. The focus is much more about building a pipeline of research that allows for continued funding and results in publications and presentations. I don't know how that is possible without close mentorship, and access to multiple mentors to gain experience doing different types of work. My research training was mostly clinically focused, so I can't speak to bench work or other types of research that are commonly handled by psychologists.

 

[RSDBP]

The day to day experience is completely different. A traditional doctoral program is about immersion. Only a small portion of your learning is in the classroom, as the majority of learning happens with your research mentor(s), clinical supervisors, and fellow students. Online programs push classroom learning as the main place to learn, and then the "research" portion is something akin to a self study. None of the "outside the classroom" learning is re-created, and frankly the amount of time invested is not the same.

As a 1st year in a traditional program you may have classes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning, with Tuesdays, Thursday, and Friday afternoon dedicated to research. When you aren't in class you are reviewing journal articles, meeting with your mentor(s), collecting data, shadowing at the clinical, TA'ing, attending didactics, meeting with classsmates to review material, etc. Saturday and Sunday are usually for studying and reviewing your material for the coming week.

I think another huge difference is the expectations of a traditional program. I think with very few exceptions, training is seen as the priority. Students are expected to plan their life around their training. You can still find time for yourself here and there, but it is far from a 9-5. Tuesday afternoon was "my time" my 1st year. I carved that out to get stuff done around the house, see the doctor, etc. While you have some flexibility with your schedule, you still need to get everything done. Doctoral training is not for everyone, but some can make it work.

*edit*

I responded from the perspective of a balanced clinical program. If a person is pursuing a non-licensable training, the research part doubles or triples. The focus is much more about building a pipeline of research that allows for continued funding and results in publications and presentations. I don't know how that is possible without close mentorship, and access to multiple mentors to gain experience doing different types of work. My research training was mostly clinically focused, so I can't speak to bench work or other types of research that are commonly handled by psychologists.

Thanks for the insight. I know personally it would be difficult to ditch the corporate job while maintaining family etc. for the clinical programs. I do see your point, and I think my experiences have been good overall, with considerable supplementation from my day job interacting with key opinion leaders in Psychiatry and Neurology. They have been extremely accepting of my education and have not looked down on the method by which I have pursued my PhD. I am sure a lot of that may be related to my knowledge of the industry and drug development, as opposed to Capella directly.

I appreciate the feedback.

Thanks,

 

[RSDBP]

The day to day experience is completely different. A traditional doctoral program is about immersion. Only a small portion of your learning is in the classroom, as the majority of learning happens with your research mentor(s), clinical supervisors, and fellow students. Online programs push classroom learning as the main place to learn, and then the "research" portion is something akin to a self study. None of the "outside the classroom" learning is re-created, and frankly the amount of time invested is not the same.

As a 1st year in a traditional program you may have classes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning, with Tuesdays, Thursday, and Friday afternoon dedicated to research. When you aren't in class you are reviewing journal articles, meeting with your mentor(s), collecting data, shadowing at the clinical, TA'ing, attending didactics, meeting with classsmates to review material, etc. Saturday and Sunday are usually for studying and reviewing your material for the coming week.

I think another huge difference is the expectations of a traditional program. I think with very few exceptions, training is seen as the priority. Students are expected to plan their life around their training. You can still find time for yourself here and there, but it is far from a 9-5. Tuesday afternoon was "my time" my 1st year. I carved that out to get stuff done around the house, see the doctor, etc. While you have some flexibility with your schedule, you still need to get everything done. Doctoral training is not for everyone, but some can make it work.

*edit*

I responded from the perspective of a balanced clinical program. If a person is pursuing a non-licensable training, the research part doubles or triples. The focus is much more about building a pipeline of research that allows for continued funding and results in publications and presentations. I don't know how that is possible without close mentorship, and access to multiple mentors to gain experience doing different types of work. My research training was mostly clinically focused, so I can't speak to bench work or other types of research that are commonly handled by psychologists.

Thanks for the information. From what you've noted here, does it make you upset when people don't follow the same route you did?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thanks for the information. From what you've noted here, does it make you upset when people don't follow the same route you did?

It is frustrating to see programs purport to provide the same education, yet they do not hold themselves to the same standards. The problem is that the general public will often generalize 1 program or 1 professional's training to the entire field, which can damage the field. This happens frequently in law, and unfortunately I feel like it happens more frequently in psychology. For every 100 competent clinical psychologists who practice EBTs and are informed by research, there are a few flaky "doctors*" of psychology that utilize the equivilant of moonbeams and healing rocks. I've been appalled by some of the people I meet at the larger conferences like APA. I can't believe they are remotely in the same field.

*I use quotes because many of the more questionable programs don't qualify the person for licensure at the doctoral level, so the person is licensed as a mid-level..but uses the title "Dr." It is misleading. I'm sure this could happen with a student who comes from a traditional program, but I have yet to meet one. Science is not perfect, but programs that drift from science (and sometimes even reject it!) are a serious risk to the field. I'm not saying that someone cannot come out of a more questionable program and be okay, but the odds are not in their favor.

I will never consider hiring a clinician who doesn't come from an APA-acred. program because APA-acred. isn't this super-high bar, it is the bare minimum requirements set by the field. I'm sure there are some great clinicians I may miss, but I want to be consistant with what I believe is needed to practice as a clinical psychologist.

 

[RSDBP]

It is frustrating to see programs purport to provide the same education, yet they do not hold themselves to the same standards. The problem is that the general public will often generalize 1 program or 1 professional's training to the entire field, which can damage the field. This happens frequently in law, and unfortunately I feel like it happens more frequently in psychology. For every 100 competent clinical psychologists who practice EBTs and are informed by research, there are a few flaky "doctors*" of psychology that utilize the equivilant of moonbeams and healing rocks. I've been appalled by some of the people I meet at the larger conferences like APA. I can't believe they are remotely in the same field.

*I use quotes because many of the more questionable programs don't qualify the person for licensure at the doctoral level, so the person is licensed as a mid-level..but uses the title "Dr." It is misleading. I'm sure this could happen with a student who comes from a traditional program, but I have yet to meet one. Science is not perfect, but programs that drift from science (and sometimes even reject it!) are a serious risk to the field. I'm not saying that someone cannot come out of a more questionable program and be okay, but the odds are not in their favor.

I will never consider hiring a clinician who doesn't come from an APA-acred. program because APA-acred. isn't this super-high bar, it is the bare minimum requirements set by the field. I'm sure there are some great clinicians I may miss, but I want to be consistant with what I believe is needed to practice as a clinical psychologist.

I understand what you are saying. I have seen some questionable MDs in the people I deal with, so I have questioned their quals too. Thanks for the insights.

 

[roubs]

Again, I'm not saying anyone has specifically given a fake review of Capella, but this is a description of the problem (as it mostly applies to regular businesses).

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/technology/finding-fake-reviews-online.html?hp

It's silly to think for-profit universities would be immune from this.

 

[domineus]

Again, I'm not saying anyone has specifically given a fake review of Capella, but this is a description of the problem (as it mostly applies to regular businesses).

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/technology/finding-fake-reviews-online.html?hp

It's silly to think for-profit universities would be immune from this.

you'd be surprised how many people like Capella...perusing the official student message boards when a topic about capella being a scam or in general student frustration goes like this

Disgrunted student: I am not getting what I pay for because of ABC
student cheerleader 1: Capella is a great school!!! It's teh awesome
student cheerleader 2: OMG HOW COULD YOU SAY SOMETHING BAD ABOUT THE BEST SCHOOL EVER! LEAVE THE SCHOOL IF YOU HATE IT (caps included)
student cheerleader 3: We have to stand by our school because of x y z
Dissident student 2: the person's grievances should be heard so we can evolve as a better school
and then more student cheerleaders back and forth making statements like many Capella students have made.

Who the heck needs to pay anyone to do it when the students do it enough? It is almost sickening to a degree; but it wouldn't be if the school re aligned its values for both types of clientele. The younger students that want clinical psychology as an appropriate major while maximizing the school for their research goals, and the students that desire to go to school for career advancement. In so many ways, Capella sees a lot more benefit from the latter rather than the former, leaving students like me rather frustrated about the experience.

 

[RSDBP]

Again, I'm not saying anyone has specifically given a fake review of Capella, but this is a description of the problem (as it mostly applies to regular businesses).

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/technology/finding-fake-reviews-online.html?hp

It's silly to think for-profit universities would be immune from this.

Thanks for the link. I took a look at the article. The thought hadn't crossed my mind until you said something yesterday. I guess I am just a bit naive. Definitely makes me think twice about some of the postings.

 

[deleted176373]

If you can do this well, it won't matter where you earned your degree. The true value of your knowledge will be quite evident in your own work. Not the work of your faculty.

In Clinical Psychology it does matter where you earned your degree. It can change the entire trajectory of your career. If you don't think the school matters, then why do people even bother to go to APA accredited schools?

 

[RSDBP]

In Clinical Psychology it does matter where you earned your degree. It can change the entire trajectory of your career. If you don't think the school matters, then why do people even bother to go to APA accredited schools?

I was approaching it from a non-clinical psych perspective. I understand the need for the APA cert when dealing with the clinical psych route. Certainly it comes down to the need to demonostrate competence when dealing with others lives.

 

[Member8113990]

Capella is honest about their PsyD and PhD programs in Clinical Pscyhology being accredited by the APA....they also make it very clear to examine your state to make sure the exact requirements are met for every course/credit you take if planning on licensure. I just attended one of their residencies, first out of three, and it was extremely impressive. They are up-front, direct, and honest about the difficulties any student may encounter in the licensing process.

Yes, people are already licensed from Capella, they gather the same hours of observation and clinical experience that is needed for licensure in their state....just like anyone attending a traditional B&M college....

I have talked directly to my state board and others that are already used to Capella graduates, and how they match the same qualifications as any other applicant. I have a new level of respect, and overall pride for my education after my first in-house experience with Capella. In some ways I would say the training could be more rigerous than that of a B&M school due to the self discipline it takes to monitor everything outside of a traditional classroom. They are very extensive in their observation, and assure that every student in the program is completely capable of performing the tasks required in the field PRIOR to letting them even begin their first 600 hours of observation. An additional 3,000 hours or more is required by states to allow for licensure. It's about the experience, and Capella requires the same as B&M schools to allow for these things like licensure......

Capella is accredited, although some doctoral programs are not recognized as of yet by the APA. Once again I am fully aware of this but plan on going for my PhD in Clinical Psychology in the hopes that by the time I graduate it will be accredited by the APA...after all I will be working with my M.S degree to obtain licensure and only gathering a PhD due to personal interest in the field, and hopefully prestigious positions outside of private practice.

My instructors were from Harvard/Yale and other ivy league schools at the first colloquium, and have many years of experience in the field. They too are in full support of the programs at Capella, and agree that it most likely will be the way most universities turn in the future. Either way it's already established, accreditied, and accepted across state boards. If your state requires a CACREP certified program, Mental Health Counseling M.S is the correct degree to obtain. Even though most states don't, Capella is aware of this and offers the essential tools for anyone to get licensed outside of clinical psychology. This requires a PhD in most all states, and would entail going to another university if absolutely necessary with the M.S acheived at Capella if worried about APA accreditation. If someone wants to hold a LPC, LCPC, or any other professional counselor or social worker license, Capella is perfectly able of providing the necessary courses and programs.

Wake up people, performing 60 hours a week in the class room happens on a regular basis in my program. It's by no means easy, and I've attended about 4 B&M schools before attending Capella. I prefer the Capella experience above all, and no I'm not getting paid to say this.....but can see how you all would think that with some other posts. I a m a r e a l p e r s o n, n o t a b o t ! ! !

Have a good one!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes, people are already licensed from Capella, they gather the same hours of observation and clinical experience that is needed for licensure in their state....just like anyone attending a traditional B&M college....

How exactly do they gain the same # of hours if they are not going full-time @ 50-60+ hr/wk? An important aspect of clinical training is not only mentorship, but also the experience of working with other members of your cohort doing mock interviews, practice administering assessments, etc. How are these experiences replicated?

I have talked directly to my state board and others that are already used to Capella graduates, and how they match the same qualifications as any other applicant. I have a new level of respect, and overall pride for my education after my first in-house experience with Capella.

So their research training, publications/presentations, mentorship, and related areas are the same? The Devil is in the details as licensure is not a high bar to reach.

In some ways I would say the training could be more rigerous than that of a B&M school due to the self discipline it takes to monitor everything outside of a traditional classroom.

This is definitely a talking point that every Capella (and similar) supporter mentions. How exactly does a student attending Capella have more self discipline than a student at a traditional program? Given the greater time requirements needed to complete a traditional program, I would guess that it takes more "self discipline" to complete everything in a timely manner.

They are very extensive in their observation, and assure that every student in the program is completely capable of performing the tasks required in the field PRIOR to letting them even begin their first 600 hours of observation. An additional 3,000 hours or more is required by states to allow for licensure. It's about the experience, and Capella requires the same as B&M schools to allow for these things like licensure......

This training has nothing to do with the program, as the hours are accrued at external sites (internship and post-doc). I am more interested in how Capella provides adequate practica training, supervision, etc. when their students can be 2,000+ away. How do they vet the supervisors? What kind of quality control is used to ensure that students are receiving adequate training? How does assessment training work?

Wake up people, performing 60 hours a week in the class room happens on a regular basis in my program. It's by no means easy, and I've attended about 4 B&M schools before attending Capella.

One of the big marketing points for Capella is the flexibility to work full-time and complete the degree. How does a student work full-time AND dedicate 60hr/wk to their classes and training? These two ideas appear to directly conflict with each other.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Curious...who are these famed Harvard and Yale profs teaching at Capella?

PS...in my experience, the further along you are in academia (generally, definitely does not apply to some):
a) the less emphatically narcissistic you are about yourself, your training, and your knowledge]
b) the less ZOMG you are about the "big names"
c) the less time you should have to post on SDN

I'm not saying you can't get a quality education online. I just don't know that a solid PhD program in psychology can be done online. I think about my coursework, and even moreso my research, and I just don't see how it could be done this way. Maybe if you have a really awesome home-funded research lab or something. I'm not a grad student because of some critical-thinking classes I've taken. I live and breathe my work.

I heard that my childhood school district fired all the administrators with unaccredited PhDs.

 

[PsychBoxe]

I think that an overarching reality that keep staring me in the face is the fact that it is an online doctorate in clinical psychology. I am not an authority that can rule out every doctoral program that exists online, but I am still dumfounded as to how one can obtain the same experiences and common factors of a doctoral level education online. Perhaps it is ignorance, and perhaps it is common sense. Personally, I don't understand how some of the paramount tenets (i.e. assessment training with cohorts, fish bowl style exercises, therapy training exercises, in-depth, critical supervision in practicum and research, etc.) can exist when the majority of the learning occurs online. Sorry to distract from the details of the thread, but this is a bold theme I cannot seem to wrap my head around.

 

[domineus]

Curious...who are these famed Harvard and Yale profs teaching at Capella?

PS...in my experience, the further along you are in academia (generally, definitely does not apply to some):
a) the less emphatically narcissistic you are about yourself, your training, and your knowledge]
b) the less ZOMG you are about the "big names"
c) the less time you should have to post on SDN

I'm not saying you can't get a quality education online. I just don't know that a solid PhD program in psychology can be done online. I think about my coursework, and even moreso my research, and I just don't see how it could be done this way. Maybe if you have a really awesome home-funded research lab or something. I'm not a grad student because of some critical-thinking classes I've taken. I live and breathe my work.

I heard that my childhood school district fired all the administrators with unaccredited PhDs.

There are a few, and as I even admitted some of the professors do know their stuff. I can't say if they're Harvard bound, but some, specifically Dr. Sarnoff is pretty well established and I was rather impressed with his psychodynamic research. Yes, there are some really good professors at the school, but what's the point of having them if the only time we as students see them is at colloquium? We can't help with their research because of Capella, making our CV (if we're starting out) crap compared to others in the profession.

And that's the main problem with Capella. Are we competent versus our peers? My answer is absolutely not. Not with the training we're receiving, no.

One of the big marketing points for Capella is the flexibility to work full-time and complete the degree. How does a student work full-time AND dedicate 60hr/wk to their classes and training? These two ideas appear to directly conflict with each other.

It doesn't work well. I know for instance I do 20 hours for my classes, but the rest is literally finding an internship, not coordinating any research. And while, Capella now favors the Vail model, the main issue is that there lacks application, proper training, heck barely even research except writing we do for class and discussion boards. That still goes under 20 hours.

We (as Capella learners) need to remove the overly positive stigma and realize that the field is demanding that we be on a level that Capella is not preparing us for.

This is definitely a talking point that every Capella (and similar) supporter mentions. How exactly does a student attending Capella have more self discipline than a student at a traditional program? Given the greater time requirements needed to complete a traditional program, I would guess that it takes more "self discipline" to complete everything in a timely manner.

Because you're self motivated to perform the tasks without a professor looking over your shoulder or something. To be honest, we are doing something most serious graduate students do and that is take initiative, go beyond undergrad level to become experts in our field of expertise. I think its lip service if you ask me...

I think that an overarching reality that keep staring me in the face is the fact that it is an online doctorate in clinical psychology. I am not an authority that can rule out every doctoral program that exists online, but I am still dumfounded as to how one can obtain the same experiences and common factors of a doctoral level education online. Perhaps it is ignorance, and perhaps it is common sense. Personally, I don't understand how some of the paramount tenets (i.e. assessment training with cohorts, fish bowl style exercises, therapy training exercises, in-depth, critical supervision in practicum and research, etc.) can exist when the majority of the learning occurs online. Sorry to distract from the details of the thread, but this is a bold theme I cannot seem to wrap my head around.

I think if done properly and it was more distant versus exclusively online, it could work. But (for instance) if the student were to transition to the city where the program was in, form a close cohort and establish a relationship with neighboring agencies, it could work for the PsyD model. But there are far more requirements for generating research.

The member from above, from what I can gather, is a Master's level student judging from his/her comments regarding the first Colloquium experience (Arlington was it?). But I warn. Wait until internship time and its time to try and get one. Your tune will change, so very fast

Sadly I have to go back to getting some test analysis done but IMHO my opinion hasn't changed. Lately my attitude as a Capella student has been negative, so has my beliefs about the field. It's getting harder to keep up a good GPA because the degree is worthless in many ways. Que sera sera

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I appreciate the honest responses. Hopefully you can get your MS and find another program that meets your needs.

 

[Ollie123]

Dr. Sarnoff is pretty well established and I was rather impressed with his psychodynamic research.

Not to pick on him since it clearly isn't a focus of his career and it certainly doesn't speak to his teaching or clinical abilities, but if he's the same person I just googled...his research credentials are not even in the same league as most junior faculty at mediocre B&M institutions that don't emphasize research. Many of our graduate students have about as many publications as he does, in far more prestigious journals, before graduation. Again, not trying to pick on him specifically, but if his research credentials stand out as impressive I'm wondering if their other faculty could even get admitted to a traditional graduate program let alone teach at one...

RE: The previous poster, it seems that every time we have a thread about Capella/Fielding/etc. we get vague replies with no explanation of how that works. I'd be very curious to know how one is able to work full-time and put in a full 60 hours a week of school (e.g. things the school is involved with and approved of...not "I work in mental health already and get experience there").

 

[hamsterpants]

I also googled:

http://www.sarnoffandsarnoff.com/

Not to pick on him since it clearly isn't a focus of his career and it certainly doesn't speak to his teaching or clinical abilities, but if he's the same person I just googled...his research credentials are not even in the same league as most junior faculty at mediocre B&M institutions that don't emphasize research. Many of our graduate students have about as many publications as he does, in far more prestigious journals, before graduation. Again, not trying to pick on him specifically, but if his research credentials stand out as impressive I'm wondering if their other faculty could even get admitted to a traditional graduate program let alone teach at one...

RE: The previous poster, it seems that every time we have a thread about Capella/Fielding/etc. we get vague replies with no explanation of how that works. I'd be very curious to know how one is able to work full-time and put in a full 60 hours a week of school (e.g. things the school is involved with and approved of...not "I work in mental health already and get experience there").

 

[domineus]

I appreciate the honest responses. Hopefully you can get your MS and find another program that meets your needs.

it's frustrating, it honestly is. Maybe I have allowed the current field drama (for lack of better term) to really impact my performance in some areas where it shouldn't have. But the dissident nature of my posts these days are just that and they're not just dissident on here. Also in my quality of work. I just hope and pray that this class is over so I can reassess. Honestly I am considering not going to the "colloquium" in September (AKA the hands on) and I wish I could get my money back from my financial aid but i can't. I am close to internship and that has me nervous because its hard in Chicago to find an internship OUT of the normal intern period. And usually, sites that are interested see my experience and school and the rejection letters come.

The real big frustration is the expectation that other Capella learners have. As if the dissident, disgruntled students don't have a right to voice their opinion on the community message boards. Often its gotten to the point to where its been get out of the school. Currently, I am definitely using that as an option!

Not to pick on him since it clearly isn't a focus of his career and it certainly doesn't speak to his teaching or clinical abilities, but if he's the same person I just googled...his research credentials are not even in the same league as most junior faculty at mediocre B&M institutions that don't emphasize research.

Personally I think his research portfolio, as well as his experiences are the thing that impresses me because of his studies in psychodynamic therapy that interest me. Again, this is stuff that I need to hear as a student - about discussing research with my peers to understand how large (or small) our professors or colleagues are in the large scope. So taking the time to clarify that helps. Still like his emphasis on hypnosis

Again, not trying to pick on him specifically, but if his research credentials stand out as impressive I'm wondering if their other faculty could even get admitted to a traditional graduate program let alone teach at one...

If a god awful clinician I had at a community college almost 10 years ago can get a teaching job, I don't think anything is impossible

But this also leads itself to another question - applicability to Capella University post grads trying to teach. Surprisingly, in one of the "anti" Capella topics on the main Capella boards, a student did ask what is the possibility of getting a position with my Master's degree? I know generally with B&M, community college is the safe bet, but with Capella, I think the options are limited. Top that with the saturation of market, it may be unlikely...

 

[paramour]

Not to nitpick (although I'm obviously doing just that), but Dr. Sarnoff's Harvard degree is a bachelor's in mathematics. Do we really consider them acclaimed Harvard scholars in psychology if they received their doctorate in counseling from Kentucky? Yes, he may have gone to Harvard, but it certainly wasn't for this field, and I doubt (or hope?) that he's identifying himself as such to his students.

 

[RSDBP]

Just curious,

If everyone feels their program is superior to Capella, why fight against it so hard? I know there are different opinions, and there are good justifications for each person's feelings, why be so against it? If the product produced by the University is no good, it will be obvious, right? If it is good quality, that will be evident as well.

I believe there is value in their programs, and as our understanding of online learning evolves, perhaps there are ways to improve upon the current system. As an undergrad I sat in classrooms full of people getting nothing out of the eduction presented at a traditional school. They will be idiots after graduation, however, that is no reflection on the university. I have been in colloquia with Capella where the same thing happened. I believe that to be problematic of people in general.

 

[Ollie123]

A search should turn up many discussions on this topic.

The executive summary is that 1) While it may be obvious to us, it won't necessarily be obvious to clients, 2) Psychology as a field is struggling right now to gain respect. These schools drastically alter the public, and potential employers perception of psychology degrees (Its easy! Just take a couple classes in your PJs at home while the kids are playing next to you!). No one thinks of medical degrees in that way, and 3) Regardless of whether they are competitive, more candidates in a labor pool will drive down salaries.

There is no doubt that traditional universities aren't perfect. However I find it telling that Capella students typically compare their experience to undergraduate schooling at these universities, rather than doctoral schooling. My experience in my PhD program could not be more different than my undergrad experience, and its at the same "type" of institution.

 

[cara susanna]

.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just curious,

If everyone feels their program is superior to Capella, why fight against it so hard? I know there are different opinions, and there are good justifications for each person's feelings, why be so against it? If the product produced by the University is no good, it will be obvious, right? If it is good quality, that will be evident as well.

The public doesn't know that there is a difference in training, so they will assume that all psychologists have the same training, which damages the field. The training model is not sufficient for the field. The lack of acred. speaks to that, the struggle to get licensed speaks to that, and many of their own students readily admit to sub-par training. It would be irresponsible of other clinicians in the field to ignore this very real problem. I am all for letting the free market decide who should thrive, but there have to be minimal standards (APA-acred) to ensure the safety of the public.

 

[RSDBP]

A search should turn up many discussions on this topic.

The executive summary is that 1) While it may be obvious to us, it won't necessarily be obvious to clients, 2) Psychology as a field is struggling right now to gain respect. These schools drastically alter the public, and potential employers perception of psychology degrees (Its easy! Just take a couple classes in your PJs at home while the kids are playing next to you!). No one thinks of medical degrees in that way, and 3) Regardless of whether they are competitive, more candidates in a labor pool will drive down salaries.

There is no doubt that traditional universities aren't perfect. However I find it telling that Capella students typically compare their experience to undergraduate schooling at these universities, rather than doctoral schooling. My experience in my PhD program could not be more different than my undergrad experience, and its at the same "type" of institution.

Interesting points. With all fairness, the comparison to undergraduate classes is warranted given most online PhD students didn't attend a traditional PhD program, so they are pulling from their experiences. Just as you mostly likely did not attend an online PhD program, so your perspective would be skewed toward your experiences. I think my point was the success of the student resides with the student. I understand your thoughts on the marketing. I know a few people who were disappointed when they actually had to work in their classes and it wasn't as easy as they were lead to believe. As you know there is perception, and then there is reality.

Thanks for letting me see a different side of this arguement.

 

[RSDBP]

The public doesn't know that there is a difference in training, so they will assume that all psychologists have the same training, which damages the field. The training model is not sufficient for the field. The lack of acred. speaks to that, the struggle to get licensed speaks to that, and many of their own students readily admit to sub-par training. It would be irresponsible of other clinicians in the field to ignore this very real problem. I am all for letting the free market decide who should thrive, but there have to be minimal standards (APA-acred) to ensure the safety of the public.

For the lack of accedidation, do you feel it is related to the lack of contact hrs etc, or lack of challenging curriculum? I agree the clinical psychology programs would be hard online. You can describe to someone a condition but is completely different when you see if first hand.

I chose a non clinical program for this reason, and have little interest in treating patients overall. That is part of the reason for my many questions. I am trying to getting a better picture for the feelings and experiences out there.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Ollie123]

No doubt true, but that's why I've tried to use relatively objective criteria to compare the programs to arrive at my views. While this isn't directed at you in particular, students in these types of programs have been very good at giving vague, dodgy answers when pressed for details that would allow us to make direct comparisons (how many hours a week are expected, how much non-class schoolwork is expected, what labs do the students work in, how does the institution locate and approve appropriate practica sites, etc.). Its generally only served to further raise my suspicions of the programs. I don't really care what my or anyone else's undergrad experiences were like, I want to compare doctoral programs. I've yet to see a remotely convincing argument that they are in any way equivalent.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

For the lack of accedidation, do you feel it is related to the lack of contact hrs etc, or lack of challenging curriculum? I agree the clinical psychology programs would be hard online. You can describe to someone a condition but is completely different when you see if first hand.

I am not privy to the actual review, though I'd guess it has a lot to do with the lack of "equivilancy" across training domains, which includes a significant difference in hours of training. My biggest objection to online training is the lack of close mentorship. E-mailing with professors is fine for certain things, as I did quite a bit of my later edits this way, but not for others. I'm not sure how someone can adequately teach a student WAIS-IV administration fromi behind a camera/computer. The technology has come a long way, but I don't believe it can adequately bridge the gap to provide the same level of education necessary to produce a competent clinician to practice at the independant level.