The Coddling of the American Mind

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Are you talking about dems or GOP? I was referring to dems in my previous response. GOP has been implicit in their lack of speaking out against some of Trumps rhetoric and they've sold their souls as a party with what they've allowed him to do. Regardless, the sins of the GOP and the actions of the democrats in handling Ford are not the same thing and trying to paint them as equivalent is disingenuous.

Both are just as damaging to survivors of sexual assault. Mocking a common symptom of PTSD in front of a national audience, while people laugh and cheer? I can only imagine what assault survivors feel when seeing that. Disingenuous, indeed.

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Both are just as damaging to survivors of sexual assault. Mocking a common symptom of PTSD in front of a national audience, while people laugh and cheer? I can only imagine what assault survivors feel when seeing that. Disingenuous, indeed.

You really think having someone make inflammatory and possibly derogatory remarks as a general statements about a condition you have is the same as being put in the spotlight on national television and questioned in front of millions when you had hoped to remain private? Is that a joke or is your perspective really that warped? If so, then at least you're not disingenuous...
 
You really think having someone make inflammatory and possibly derogatory remarks as a general statements about a condition you have is the same as being put in the spotlight on national television and questioned in front of millions when you had hoped to remain private? Is that a joke or is your perspective really that warped?

If we are talking about the damage done to survivors of assault and trauma, the inflammatory and derogatory statements, along with the lack of response from supporters, is actually much more damaging to the whole, exponentially. The damage done to Dr. Ford is much greater on the individual level. So, it would really depend on which level of damage you are talking about.
 
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False accusation stats are likely to be inflated, actually, because some investigators/law enforcement bodies label claims without enough evidence as “false” when there isn’t enough evidence in general to say either way. Which doesn’t mean that assault didn't happen, but that there’s a lack of clear evidence to support, not that it’s definitely false.

All kinds of accusations fly from both sides. I have yet to see any studies or citations for Republicans using this tactic LESS than Democrats.

Again, this is a job interview. Not a trial. If someone yelled during a job interview, gave dirty looks, blasted one entire political party for a conspiracy relating to the Clintons, answered some of your questions by repeating them back to you, and not answering directly a fair amount of the time (“I went to Yale!”) do you think this is a nonpartisan, appropriate temperament, calm and collected person who should be ruling on our highest court for decades in an unbiased manner? Regardless of the assault claims and their veracity.

It makes me wonder why Republicans are digging in their heels so much when there are several other qualified candidates without allegations who haven’t behaved like children throwing a tantrum.
I’ve hired a lot of people.

If I had ever seriously asked one of them on national television to prove they didn’t rape someone, I would be a completely without logic or integrity to hold it agaisnt them if they got upset
 
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If we are talking about the damage done to survivors of assault and trauma, the inflammatory and derogatory statements, along with the lack of response from supporters, is actually much more damaging to the whole, exponentially. The damage done to Dr. Ford is much greater on the individual level. So, it would really depend on which level of damage you are talking about.

Fair, I was referring to the individual. I do think what Ford has been put through is damaging to the whole as well though. Basically reinforces the possibility that even if you tell your story in confidence you may still get outed, which is not acceptable for those attempting to process a serious trauma. Having a high powered figure making negative statements about a condition is certainly severely damaging, but what happened in this case is far from benign for the societal perspective on trauma as well.
 
Fair, I was referring to the individual. I do think what Ford has been put through is damaging to the whole as well though. Basically reinforces the possibility that even if you tell your story in confidence you may still get outed, which is not acceptable for those attempting to process a serious trauma. Having a high powered figure making negative statements about a condition is certainly severely damaging, but what happened in this case is far from benign for the societal perspective on trauma as well.
Nothing told to congress for the purpose of influencing a scotus confirmation should be expected to be confidential
 
Fair, I was referring to the individual. I do think what Ford has been put through is damaging to the whole as well though. Basically reinforces the possibility that even if you tell your story in confidence you may still get outed, which is not acceptable for those attempting to process a serious trauma. Having a high powered figure making negative statements about a condition is certainly severely damaging, but what happened in this case is far from benign for the societal perspective on trauma as well.

Mixed support on this. Some find relief from being able to tell their story, some find it invalidating to tell their story and be labeled as liars again and again. You'd have to ask the individual, because it's gone both ways in the many people I've treated in the past.
 
Dr. Ford has support from 10s of millions of people, a 7 figure go fund me account and, if she wants it, a very lucrative lecture circuit career for her over the next couple of decades.

And countless rape and death threats to go with those things!
 
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Nothing told to congress for the purpose of influencing a scotus confirmation should be expected to be confidential

That's fair, but she should have been given more of a choice about if and how she would be asked to participate and if she didn't want this leaked then it should have remained private and she should have been given the opportunity to decide if she wanted to testify or not (in which case this shouldn't have been brought up).

I do agree with you though that going to congress was not the appropriate place to have this investigated if she was truly seeking justice for the allegations she is making.

Mixed support on this. Some find relief from being able to tell their story, some find it invalidating to tell their story and be labeled as liars again and again. You'd have to ask the individual, because it's gone both ways in the many people I've treated in the past.

Of course, that's not the point though. Ford made her initial statements to the senator and her lawyer under the impression that it would remain confidential, then it became a national story which ended with her questioning being watched by millions. For someone who wants to come forward but is afraid the public will find out, how do you think this case would make that individual feel? Do you think they'd be more or less scared that their story would remain private?
 
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Of course, that's not the point though. Ford made her initial statements to the senator and her lawyer under the impression that it would remain confidential, then it became a national story which ended with her questioning being watched by millions. For someone who wants to come forward but is afraid the public will find out, how do you think this case would make that individual feel? Do you think they'd be more or less scared that their story would remain private?

Honestly, whether or not their story remained private was rarely something brought up by the individuals I treated. It was that they would report it, and that no one would believe them anyway. Or, that they did tell someone (parents) and they shamed the victim, or that they went to the police after the fact and were told that there was nothing that could be done. They were much more concerned with the fact that they had said something, and were dismissed so easily.
 
That's fair, but she should have been given more of a choice about if and how she would be asked to participate and if she didn't want this leaked then it should have remained private and she should have been given the opportunity to decide if she wanted to testify or not (in which case this shouldn't have been brought up).

I do agree with you though that going to congress was not the appropriate place to have this investigated if she was truly seeking justice for the allegations she is making.



Of course, that's not the point though. Ford made her initial statements to the senator and her lawyer under the impression that it would remain confidential, then it became a national story which ended with her questioning being watched by millions. For someone who wants to come forward but is afraid the public will find out, how do you think this case would make that individual feel? Do you think they'd be more or less scared that their story would remain private?
Accusations shouldn’t remain private as the accussed doesn’t get to remain private, if it’s important enough to make an accusation of that weight it should be made openly
 
Accusations shouldn’t remain private as the accussed doesn’t get to remain private, if it’s important enough to make an accusation of that weight it should be made openly

When you say "should" are you speaking from a personal moralistic standpoint or from a legal standpoint? Because in a court of law, people are allowed to report anonymously and forgo taking the stand as a witness all the time. Police often take statements and get it on record, but then have nothing to prosecute because the witness decided they didn't want to take the stand or press charges. The same is true for Ford. She might have made a statement to a senator and a lawyer, but legally she's within her right to decide she is not interested in being public about her accusation or taking a stand inside of a courthouse to defend her accusation.

Additionally, when accusations are made privately, the accused is also awarded privacy. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying, accusations shouldn't be private since the accused don't get privacy. No one but that lawyer and senator would've known anything about Kavanaugh if no one had leaked Ford's accusation. Kavanaugh probably would've been confirmed without a hitch and no one but 3 people would've known anything. When women make reports to the police but decide not to press charges, the person she is accusing faces no legal ramifications and the police are under no pressure or obligation to release her statement. The people accused face no legal consequences and the people in their lives can't find out anything. The only way for your statement to be true is if an accusation is make PUBLICLY. In which case, both accuser and accused lose privacy.
 
When you say "should" are you speaking from a personal moralistic standpoint or from a legal standpoint? Because in a court of law, people are allowed to report anonymously and forgo taking the stand as a witness all the time. Police often take statements and get it on record, but then have nothing to prosecute because the witness decided they didn't want to take the stand or press charges. The same is true for Ford. She might have made a statement to a senator and a lawyer, but legally she's within her right to decide she is not interested in being public about her accusation or taking a stand inside of a courthouse to defend her accusation.

Additionally, when accusations are made privately, the accused is also awarded privacy. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying, accusations shouldn't be private since the accused don't get privacy. No one but that lawyer and senator would've known anything about Kavanaugh if no one had leaked Ford's accusation. Kavanaugh probably would've been confirmed without a hitch and no one but 3 people would've known anything. When women make reports to the police but decide not to press charges, the person she is accusing faces no legal ramifications and the police are under no pressure or obligation to release her statement. The people accused face no legal consequences and the people in their lives can't find out anything. The only way for your statement to be true is if an accusation is make PUBLICLY. In which case, both accuser and accused lose privacy.
Senate probed new allegation of misconduct against Kavanaugh
 
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Read this interview recently and I wanted to post it for comment re: free speech on college campuses:

Greg Lukianoff on 'The Coddling of the American Mind' - The Atlantic

As a professor, I see some truth to the trends mentioned.

From the article:

In that story, “The Coddling of the American Mind,” Lukianoff, a First Amendment lawyer and the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (fire), and Haidt, a social psychologist at New York University, observed that “in the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like,” and argued that capitulating to requests to banish certain ideas from classrooms and campus events would likely increase student anxiety and depression, rather than ameliorate it.

Three years later, political polarization has only increased, as has anxiety among young people. And unrest on college campusescontinues. “Everything’s speeding up,” Lukianoff says. Haidt and Lukianoff recently published a book, also titled The Coddling of the American Mind, where they go into more detail about the three “Great Untruths” they believe are behind free-speech controversies at America’s universities:

  • “What doesn’t kill you makes you weaker,” or the idea that exposure to offensive or difficult ideas is traumatic
  • “Always trust your feelings,” or the notion that feeling upset by an idea is a reason to discount it
  • “Us versus them,” or homogenous tribal thinking that leads people to shame those whose views fall outside that of their group

I guess I haven't read the book so I can't speak fully, but I'm wondering what this author's understanding of "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings" actually is. For example, traditionally trigger warnings are in place when you are discussing in detail or describing in detail topics of war, rape, violence, racism, etc... College students are most at risk for sexual assault. If you are teaching a class on "The Psychology of War" (a class I did take in college), and you are on the topic of sexual violence as a tactic of war and its affects on victims and go into detail about comfort women and the sexual enslavement of Yazidi women by ISIL, I believe it is ethical to provide a trigger warning for the class that day. You do not know if a young student in your classroom was recently sexually assaulted on campus or perhaps has a history of sexual abuse and how that might retraumatize him/her. As psychologists, I would hope we can all see and understand why a warning before hand so a student has the choice to participate in class that day, take a breather, or pull the professor aside to explain his/her situation might be necessary. The student understands these topics might be discussed as part of the syllabus and likely wants to learn about the topic, but might still need some warning or would appreciate the sensitivity of his/her professor by being provided a trigger warning during that class. I do not think that is coddling. I think that is respecting that people have traumatic experiences that require us to be ethnical and responsible when proceeding.

This is not an extreme example. On college campuses, topics of racism, rape, war, violence, etc... are discussed regularly as part of pedagogy in the humanities. Probably less so on the sciences. I was a biology major and it really didn't come up in any of my classes. However political science, psychology, sociology, history, and even english classes would probably regularly feature challenging topics that, I agree, young people SHOULD be discussing, but should also be prefaced with trigger warnings so that a student can be aware this topic is coming that day and can prepare emotionally before hand so as to best engage in the discussion, or disengage depending on their background. I think diminishing trigger warnings down to "this idea that exposure to offensive or difficult ideas is traumatic" is incredibly minimizing of peoples' very really experiences. As psychologists, we should understand why it's important to be sensitive and aware when discussing difficult topics. It doesn't mean a student in your class who is a refugee from Syria CAN'T or shouldn't participate in a discussion on genocide in WWII. Or if an African American recently had a racist encounter on campus and then arrived in their sociology class to discuss the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, they might be particularly incensed or quiet in class that day. We should be understanding of that. The topic of the class shouldn't change, but we should be aware our students have inner worlds that affect how they interface with us as instructors and we should make the class a "safe space" so that the topic is treated with sensitivity AND thorough accuracy. Both safe spaces and trigger warnings ask that students in a class should be aware of expressing their opinions in even handed ways that take into account others' perspectives and experiences, especially since we can't know those things about everyone. I do not think that is coddling. I think that is teaching productive, empathic dialogue, something we are missing in this country.

The same is true for safe spaces. Students are allowed to feel tired or exhausted by constant dialogue around difficult topics and sometimes they will want to be somewhere where the people in the room share dialogue in the same way they do. They might want to be on a college campus that recognizes the difference between two students having opposing opinions and a student yelling the "n-word" at a black student. A "safe space" isn't a campus where they discourage disagreements. It's a campus that says, "if your disagreement resulted in one student hurling offensive epithets at another student or drawing a swastika in poop on their dorm door, we'll intervene without question." The poop example is extreme, I know. College students really are just wild these days.
 

*shrugs*

That's a fair citation. You did not provide a response to my initial question though, whether your "should" is a personal moralistic stand or a legal stand. I suppose it is true that legally, anonymity is only protected for accusers who are minors. Adults who decide to press charges usually have their names in the public along with those they accuse. You didn't provide any feedback or opinion on your link so I can only assume your point is that if a person has made an accusation that comes with legal proceedings requiring the accuser become public, the accused should also have their identity revealed. I suppose personally I would disagree, but I can see both sides of the argument.
 
I don't take issue with the concept of trigger warnings for clear/obvious content that might trigger someone with PTSD given high base rates of certain types of trauma.

It becomes a slippery slope when you expect someone to anticipate every possible reaction to every facet of the content you are teaching. Being "offended" is a very subjective concept.

The safe space at my university is somewhere with a bunch of board games, lava lamps, and a therapy dog. If someone ever hurled offensive epithets at another student at my institution, I can guarantee you that they would be put on an administrative suspension that day and that the student misconduct process would be immediately initiated.

IMO, extensive trigger warnings beyond very obvious content issues and safe spaces are not doing students any favors. People who opposed them would argue that you are not helping students to adequately function in the real world.
 
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There has been limited research on trigger warnings, but the two studies I've seen suggest that they are generally not effective and the TW itself increases anxiety.

Theoretically, I worry that they encourage avoidance and safety behaviors.
 
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I think you can speak with respect for differences without it becoming a politically correct nightmare. Example would be using genders in writing. I like when authors vary between she and he, without the awkward "he or she."
 
I think you can speak with respect for differences without it becoming a politically correct nightmare. Example would be using genders in writing. I like when authors vary between she and he, without the awkward "he or she."

Sure, but the question becomes when does respect for those differences or the response become unreasonable? Take genders in daily conversation:

In respect to usage:
- Is it reasonable for a M -> F trans individual to ask/demand to have female pronouns used instead of male and vice versa?
- Is it reasonable for any individual to ask/demand to be referred to by an uncommon/new community pronoun such as ze/ve/co/ey?
- Is it reasonable for any individual to ask/demand to be referred to by a pronoun completely unique to that individual? (for example, the individual I met who wanted people to refer to them as "sook" in the third person, which they had made up for "sookself")

In respect to response:
- Is it reasonable for a person to ask to be referred to as x pronoun?
- Is it reasonable for a person to demand to be referred to as x pronoun?
- Is it reasonable for a person to become outraged when a person won't refer to them by their desired pronoun?
- Is it reasonable to consider anyone who won't refer to a person with a certain pronoun to be denounced as discriminatory or a bigot?
- Is it reasonable for cities, states, or any other governing body to write laws requiring people to refer to others by a preferred pronoun?
- Is it reasonable for a governing body to force someone to be referred to as a certain pronoun?

The issue in my mind is not simply respecting differences, it's determining what is considered "reasonable" which is something that I think is very relevant to the thread title. How far are we reasonably willing to go in terms of accommodating an individual? I don't think there is (or even can be) a clear cut answer to this type of question. However, I do think large swaths of American society has moved to the point of valuing the individual over the group to the point that the group does not matter if the individual cannot be accommodated, and I do not think that is appropriate or healthy when taken to the level of some of what has been discussed here in terms of the original topic of the thread.
 
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On the board, maybe a few. Out in the general public, unlikely.

I think you'd be surprised. In my discussions, most people fall somewhere along the continuum here, as I think almost everyone here does. It's just simply too lazy to say someone is either for or against political correctness in discourse. Everyone can come up with multiple examples of where it is a good thing, and where it appears absurd, according to their particular set point.
 
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If you take a look at our modern feminist ideology, you have a hierarchy of the aggrieved. It affects how people assign value to a specific speaker’s right to an opinion. This is the “check your privilege” “patriarchy” shut down communication crowd. Symptoms include demanding apologies and seeking validation. I think that behavior is what people mean when they say political correctness is a problem. I would argue that this viewpoint has infected a good chunk of the Democratic Party....eg Hillary Clinton’s “deplorables line.” I see it as endemic to the willingness to dismiss ideas of presumption of innocence and due process in the title ix rule change:emphasis under obama, in the academic response to duke lacrosse, and our most recent kavanaugh confirmation hearing.

I agree that this aligns with a segment of the population. I disagree with the notion that this is a majority, or anywhere near a majority of a particular segment of the population. I think the broad brush strokes are just a convenient excuse to also not engage in conversation and also engage in serious introspection about seeing others' viewpoint.
 
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Yep. A strong vocal minority as the article I linked indicated. One that current democrat politicians have to cater to and now you’re seeing actual potential elected gov reps such as occasio-Cortez that full on operate in this space.

It's an undeniable fact that there are politicians who occupy the far left and far right corners of our ideology. It's swung from the right (Tea Party) to the left (democratic Socialists) in recent years, but this is hardly a new phenomenon. Perhaps more are simply transparent about their beliefs in recent times, but they've always been there.
 
Bernie Sanders would have won the Democratic nomination if the dnc had not interfered. I think the Democratic Party has shifted far left. I think the republicans have been similarly hijacked, for what its worth, though in a different manner.

Both sides have powerful, minority bodies within them wreaking some havoc. Take the Freedom caucus, for example. These small groups have an outsized role within the system. I'm still a little split on whether that's a good or a bad thing, although the govt shutdown of the past was definitely not a good thing. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.
 
Language changes with time. Forget those dinosaurs. You just said a big FU to S and W by starting a sentence with because.

You can grammatically start a sentence with "because" if you have a main clause that follows the subordinate clause. Also, typing incomplete sentences in a forum setting is a far cry from formal usage, say in a medical report, or news article.
 
I’ll note a member of our forum actually stated seriously that we should yield control to non white men because said population has been in power forever and we should let another group take over. That’s not a grey position and is a bad sign if one were searching for indicators of intelligent life in the vicinity.

I mean, another member clearly implicated that another member's rape was generally her fault. I wouldn't count the extreme and ignorant views of the few as an indication of the mood of the majority as it pertains to certain ideological belief categories.
 
Sure. At some point, everyone will say “that’s uncivilized behavior.”

But, what this is referencing, eg “privilege” was directly mentioned, is exactly in sync with the op coddling of the American mind book. I think a large component of what this is referencing is a symptom of the critical race theory inspired approach of parsing identity further and further and, as I previously argued, the adoption of new language terms that, if violated, signal a lack of virtue or education.

If you take a look at our modern feminist ideology, you have a hierarchy of the aggrieved. It affects how people assign value to a specific speaker’s right to an opinion. This is the “check your privilege” “patriarchy” shut down communication crowd. Symptoms include demanding apologies and seeking validation. I think that behavior is what people mean when they say political correctness is a problem. I would argue that this viewpoint has infected a good chunk of the Democratic Party....eg Hillary Clinton’s “deplorables line.” I see it as endemic to the willingness to dismiss ideas of presumption of innocence and due process in the title ix rule change:emphasis under obama, in the academic response to duke lacrosse, and our most recent kavanaugh confirmation hearing.

People are very willing to assign truth/bias to perspectives based on race/sex and ethnicity. It is core to what unfair discrimination has always been. Except, we have a chunk of the population now who thinks we should codify a version of this to make up for past wrongs.

I would argue that the same exact thing is true on the right wing or Republican side. You have a lot of people who say that they voted for Trump because the left hurt their feelings (say, for instance, by calling them deplorables). You also have them ignoring due process when it suits their side ("lock her up," urging Franken to resign before an investigation). It seems like a lot of what they do lately is just to "own the libs" instead of based on a consistent ideological platform.

I also would argue that there is a huge difference between calling out the xenophobic and racist tendencies that the Republicans have shown lately, and the ultra-SJW language and thought policing that I see in leftist circles. I don't like the latter, but that doesn't mean that we should default to never calling out anything ever.
 
I think when you call out “sexist” and “racist” tendencies as an sjw and you mean that the sexist behavior is not accepting as true an allegation of sexual harassment with nothing other than a woman’s word and racist as not agreeing with privilege rhetoric that there isn’t a huge difference at all.

This is a bit of an over-simplification for the sake of making a point. There's a difference between saying that not knowing what happened because there is no corroborative evidence vs. if you don't absolutely believe something without corroborative information you are a sexist. however, it may be justified in saying that the response to an allegation is sexist. For example, many people either outright, or implicitly stated that Ford should have never come forward without smoking gun evidence, or that she is lying, without any evidence that her claims are false. Luckily, we did not do the same thing with victims of clergy abuse, most of which were male. And, because of that, many more victims were able to come forward and corroborative evidence was eventually obtained.
 
Right. Surely, your mileage may vary depending on specific situations. I don’t see much of a difference in thought process between some elements of “we believe” “white privilege” purveyors and the kkk “globalists” alt right sect. Just because the target might be different, though there does seem to be some consensus in the anti Semitic space for some reason acids those groups, it doesn’t make the underlying thought process any less stupid.

Between some elements, sure. There are definitely some black and white thinkers. But, I would argue strongly that there is a much wider range of thought between those who support something such as "We believe" as it relates to the issue of sexual assault and the right to be heard, than there is someone who joins the KKK. I do not think both of those populations contain members who fall within a somewhat normal distribution on their thoughts as they pertain to their organizations platform.
 
Depends on how broad of a brush you paint with in respect to the definition of the particular basket of deplorables. I think it has been an overt strategy to couple the alt right with mainstream republican thought by democrats. I think this is in step with those in the alt right who want their views to be mainstream. I think Steve Bannon subverted the breitbart crew toward that end and people like milo yianopolis capitalized on that. I think Donald Trump was wrong to associate in any way with bannon because of that (though I don’t believe bannon is racist). It greatly irritated me that trump ran throughout the primary process as a one issue candidate (build the wall). And I do think that issue, illegal immigration, while important to notions of sovereignty, the discussion of social programs and national security appealed to the xenophobic amongst us and was very attractive to the alt-right kkk types

I agree.
 
There is no doubt that I am also a cocky jerk.

Just note that you might not be winning mqny arguments based on merit. It’s like you adopt a strategy of attrition. I can’t be the only one who disengages because they have neither time nor energy to argue with you.

But, I’m not sure I’d have you being any other way.

You kinda remind me of terrier that I own. This dog barks so much. She has so much heart. She’s so protective and tough. But sometimes we’re like “did you really need to go crazy at the doorbell on the tv?” Or like “really, youve seen this guest 1000 times, do we really need to got though this before you snuggle up next the them on the couch the minute they sit down.” We still adore her.

Shoot. One time we were in a car wreck- rear ended by a drunk. We had only pwned her for like a month at this point (she’s a breeder rescue from a puppy mill). She went flying into the dash. HARD. Got up. Sat on my wife’s (then gf) lap and “protected” her from the “evil paramedics” trying immobilize my wife’s spine.

I think you’re smarter then my dog and my dog is pretty smart.

I appreciate you, man.
Wis is one of the posters on here who is not expressing from a black and white standpoint. Maybe that's why it's not a straightforward conversation. These issues are far from black and white and there are many degrees of behavior in the discussed instances.
Someone, I think you, asked about how far we go with gender identity pronouns and so on. I really haven't found the transgender individuals I know to be asking for things like ve or xe or other individualized pronouns. I think some people (college students?) may do that and then it gets generalized into being a bigger issue than it is. Not exactly a straw man, but close.
Also, I don't think this is about winning any arguments, but about discussing these issues.
 
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As @Psycycle has said, it's not about winning. It's about understanding each other and getting each other to think a little more. And, people disengaging because discussions are difficult and tiring is the reason our country is as polarized as it is. Heck, my best friend locally is pretty far to the right, we sit around a fire on his deck once every week or two and just debate each other while enjoying libations and a cigar. It's fun, and we've both definitely come to a better understanding about different stances on the other end of the spectrum.
 
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IPAs and Scotch generally agree with me

I'm not sure false flag is the term you want to use here. It has some pretty specific connotations recently that does not align with this particular issue at all. (i.e., InfoWars saying that Sandy hook was a False Flag operation and such).
Also, I am not aware of any such "compelled speech law." Now, a University, school, or other establishment can have a policy, which is their right, but I am not aware of any laws that have been proposed. If they are out there, by all means, send us the HB or SB info because I'd genuinely be interested in the wording of such a proposal.
 
That Act does not compel certain gender neutral pronouns. That claim was made by Peterson, but he was promptly corrected by legal experts.

And, strawman is not the phrase you want there either.
 
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IPAs and Scotch generally agree with me

I'm not sure false flag is the term you want to use here. It has some pretty specific connotations recently that does not align with this particular issue at all. (i.e., InfoWars saying that Sandy hook was a False Flag operation and such).
Also, I am not aware of any such "compelled speech law." Now, a University, school, or other establishment can have a policy, which is their right, but I am not aware of any laws that have been proposed. If they are out there, by all means, send us the HB or SB info because I'd genuinely be interested in the wording of such a proposal.
Gender Identity/Gender Expression - CCHR
 
Opinion | Hell hath no fury like an entitled white man denied


Imagine this article written about anyone but a white male with the appropriate adjustments for stereotypes. You might be able to find one....on stormfront or similar. Instead, this person was perfectly comfortable and able to publish this in a mainstream media website.

Pretty much anything goes with opinion pieces these days. What's left of the Fourth Estate seems to be scrambling for ratings/reads/clicks these days. They're just following the lead of people like Limbaugh/Hannity and the like, only the former have a wider audience and give a platform to unfounded conspiracy theories. I'm still not convinced that there is some vast conspiracy to silence people. There is a very vocal minority that would like to, sure. But I think it's more of a problem of people not willing to engage in discussion on both sides. Questioning a belief is not always the same as attacking it.
 

Who exactly are the "covered entities" that the law pertains to? If I'm reading correctly, this law pertains to housing, law, and employment harassment. In which case, is pretty limited and generally within the scope of most discrimination laws. In which case, I'm ok with it. If they ever tried to broaden it to cover all citizens outside of these auspices, I'd be right there calling for the law's repeal.
 
Who exactly are the "covered entities" that the law pertains to? If I'm reading correctly, this law pertains to housing, law, and employment harassment. In which case, is pretty limited and generally within the scope of most discrimination laws. In which case, I'm ok with it. If they ever tried to broaden it to cover all citizens outside of these auspices, I'd be right there calling for the law's repeal.
It’s a compelled speech law that you said you weren’t aware existed, do with that information what you want but the govt is compelling speech
 
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It’s a compelled speech law that you said you weren’t aware existed, do with that information what you want but the govt is compelling speech

I mean, we can debate the semantics of that. Because, based on that definition, they have already been compelling speech for decades. For example, someone in a housing authority can be legally removed from their job for telling an African American individual that they were not going to rent an apartment to "no gdamn" N word. Been that way for decades. Rightfully so, in my opinion. And, if anything, this would be restricting certain speech, not compelling it.
 
I mean, we can debate the semantics of that. Because, based on that definition, they have already been compelling speech for decades. For example, someone in a housing authority can be legally removed from their job for telling an African American individual that they were not going to rent an apartment to "no gdamn" N word. Been that way for decades. Rightfully so, in my opinion. And, if anything, this would be restricting certain speech, not compelling it.
But you used an example of a govt employee (who should never be able to discriminate) to justify the compelled speech of a private person/entity. The govt says you must address a person however they want you to enforced by govt threat....and you aren’t allowed to avoid that forced speech by refusing to deal with them
 
But you used an example of a govt employee (who should never be able to discriminate) to justify the compelled speech of a private person/entity. The govt says you must address a person however they want you to enforced by govt threat....and you aren’t allowed to avoid that forced speech by refusing to deal with them

The government in this situation says that you cannot use discriminatory language if you work in a certain capacity. As it has for decades. Which I'm ok with. If I were to use slurs in my workplace, I would be removed from my position, rightly so. These laws do nothing for what I choose to say in public and private settings. Perfectly fine in my book. I can refuse to deal with people all I want in my non-work time. But when I'm at work, my job mandates that I behave in a certain way.
 
The government in this situation says that you cannot use discriminatory language if you work in a certain capacity. As it has for decades. Which I'm ok with. If I were to use slurs in my workplace, I would be removed from my position, rightly so. These laws do nothing for what I choose to say in public and private settings. Perfectly fine in my book. I can refuse to deal with people all I want in my non-work time. But when I'm at work, my job mandates that I behave in a certain way.
But these laws are mandating that you use certain language in a nongovt job.

You can be ok with that if you want, but it is a law compelling private speech
 
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Even the gay cake decision could be considered compelled speech.

The narrow ruling by the SCOTUS was in favor of the cake maker. In essence, though, they didn't touch the free speech or discrimination aspects much at all in their ruling. So, how does this decision compel speech?
 
The narrow ruling by the SCOTUS was in favor of the cake maker. In essence, though, they didn't touch the free speech or discrimination aspects much at all in their ruling. So, how does this decision compel speech?
Because their decision basically was about process, they said the state didn’t consider the baker’s views. Scotus didn’t say the state had to honor them or allow the baker freedom to choose expression, thus leaving open for states to force it as long as they go through the charade of pretending to consider the view point of the one being forced
 
Because their decision basically was about process, they said the state didn’t consider the baker’s views. Scotus didn’t say the state had to honor them or allow the baker freedom to choose expression, thus leaving open for states to force it as long as they go through the charade of pretending to consider the view point of the one being forced

Exactly, but the ruling in no way compels speech. If anything, it said "go figure it out yourself" to the state.
 
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