The DC area--Georgetown, GW, etc.

[deleted126022]

I'm currently an M3 at a state U. program planning to do IM and then cardiology. My family situation is such that I will likely need to find a spot in the DC area. It's time to start working on fourth year schedules and away rotations so I've been reading old threads about the DC area, particularly Georgetown and George Washington. What are the current opinions of the IM programs within reasonable commuting distance of DC which I imagine extends to Baltimore? I'm obviously looking for a program that will be respected when it comes to applying for fellowships though I can't see a career in academics in the future.

It seems Georgetown has a more academic reputation than GW, yet the cardiology is stronger at WHC and GW than Georgetown proper. Logistics may favor these, but would the Baltimore options be better in terms of my long term goals? I'm not top-10, 250+ Step 1, with 4 first authored publications--more or less an average student.

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[sluggo]

Your #s will get you looks at all 3 DC programs, and you would have to drop the ball at your interview not to get a spot at the one of your choosing. That said, your analysis is right. G-town does most of its cards at WHC. My feel for G-town is that it is a fallen giant. GW is the best all-around. If you want real urban grit, a great education and world-class cards, be unconventional and go to WHC!

 

[tarlovcyst]

I'm currently an M3 at a state U. program planning to do IM and then cardiology. My family situation is such that I will likely need to find a spot in the DC area. It's time to start working on fourth year schedules and away rotations so I've been reading old threads about the DC area, particularly Georgetown and George Washington. What are the current opinions of the IM programs within reasonable commuting distance of DC which I imagine extends to Baltimore? I'm obviously looking for a program that will be respected when it comes to applying for fellowships though I can't see a career in academics in the future.

It seems Georgetown has a more academic reputation than GW, yet the cardiology is stronger at WHC and GW than Georgetown proper. Logistics may favor these, but would the Baltimore options be better in terms of my long term goals? I'm not top-10, 250+ Step 1, with 4 first authored publications--more or less an average student.

The big three in DC are GT, GW, and WHC. I've visited all three in the past and am familiar. GT has a combined cards program with WHC. Most unfamiliar people don't know, but WHC has a top cardiology program. The faculty are really from WHC. GT has older facilities, while GW has a more modern campus. GT used to be king of the DC region, but right now, GW is probably better than GT. WHC residency is 3rd. WHC has about 50% FMGs, for those that care about that sort of fact. It's an easier residency to get into than GT or GW. For an average student, you will get interviews at all three.

In the Maryland area, definitely take a look at JHU-Bayview. It's often the hidden surprise for many on the interview trail because it's a small academic-oriented community program. Their fellowship matches are simply amazing, with JHU-Osler taking a large number of the residents for fellowships... including in cardiology. U of MD is another fine large program, but Bayview is the best out of all the programs in my reply.

 

[tacrum43]

250+ Step 1, with 4 first authored publications--more or less an average student.

For an average student, you will get interviews at all three.

Right. Average...

Anyway...I don't know too much about Georgetown's residency program or WHC, but Cards is probably one of GW's stronger areas. The Chair of Medicine at GW, Dr. Wasserman, is a cardiologist. They have 2-3 spots per year for fellowship, and usually 1-2 of those go to a GW resident.

Someone mentioned WHC being urban and gritty. I guess it is fairly, but it's a well equipped hospital and the neighborhood isn't that bad. Real urban medicine would be more Howard University Hospital, but you see some at GW (and probably GT) too.

 

[stankem]

Right. Average...

"I'm not top-10, 250+ Step 1, with 4 first authored publications--more or less an average student."



....

 

[deleted126022]

Yes, that was to say that I am not top 10 nor 250+ nor do I have publications. Certainly that would be far above average in each category.

Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it.

 

[tacrum43]

Yes, that was to say that I am not top 10 nor 250+ nor do I have publications. Certainly that would be far above average in each category.

Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it.

Oh I see. My bad. 😳

I thought you meant non-top 10, but the rest was above average.

 

[verbalassasin]

Right. Average...

Anyway...I don't know too much about Georgetown's residency program or WHC, but Cards is probably one of GW's stronger areas. The Chair of Medicine at GW, Dr. Wasserman, is a cardiologist. They have 2-3 spots per year for fellowship, and usually 1-2 of those go to a GW resident.

Someone mentioned WHC being urban and gritty. I guess it is fairly, but it's a well equipped hospital and the neighborhood isn't that bad. Real urban medicine would be more Howard University Hospital, but you see some at GW (and probably GT) too.

That funny you say that when WHC and Howard are 5 minutes apart from each other lietrally. I was wondering why they where so close on interview day. But none the less its definetly an urban hospital. The Cardiology faculty at WHC are all Georgetown faculty. The two are owned by the same company and so Gtown has moved its invasive cardiac services there. Does this take away from GTOWN? no, because their residents train at the CCU at WHC. The argument that GW is superb to gtown is ridiculous. Both programs have their own strengths and unique structures.

 

[scrantones1]

Only a casual observer to these forums -- at not currently at either program--but would say this:

GT -- may be more widely known, but would argue the strength of their name resides in their Law School and their Top 10 basketball team. Big kidney transplant service. Older hospital...residents have to rotate to 5-6 hospitals to get their broad experience. Unless things have changed in the past year or two There is also NO CATH LAB at GT Hospital -- STEMIs get shipped to GW or to WHC across the city.

GW -- has several cards faculty that jumped ship from GT to GW several years ago. relatively new hospital (~ 7 years old), broader socioeconomic diversity v. GT main hospital. all cards services are at GW--looking to keep their own for cards fellowship. more laid back environment. Not as good a basketball team.

Both GW & GT Residents rotate to the same hospitals (VA, Fairfax). Agree with what's been said about WHC about Cards...(great to apply for fellowship later on, but not as widely known for IM)

 

[verbalassasin]

Only a casual observer to these forums -- at not currently at either program--but would say this:


GT -- may be more widely known, but would argue the strength of their name resides in their Law School and their Top 10 basketball team. Big kidney transplant service. Older hospital...residents have to rotate to 5-6 hospitals to get their broad experience. Unless things have changed in the past year or two There is also NO CATH LAB at GT Hospital -- STEMIs get shipped to GW or to WHC across the city.

GW -- has several cards faculty that jumped ship from GT to GW several years ago. relatively new hospital (~ 7 years old), broader socioeconomic diversity v. GT main hospital. all cards services are at GW--looking to keep their own for cards fellowship. more laid back environment. Not as good a basketball team.


Both GW & GT Residents rotate to the same hospitals (VA, Fairfax). Agree with what's been said about WHC about Cards...(great to apply for fellowship later on, but not as widely known for IM)

There is a Cath lab at GTOWN. it is used for diagnostic caths now because of the consolidation between gtown and WHC. UCLA rotates out of I believe three hospitals to get their broad experience. Rotating out of many hospitals can be a good thing as the PD told us during our interview. They have their univeristy hospital which is all tertiary care, then WHC for an urban flavor, then their 2 community hospitals, and a VA. It covers the complete spectrum of medicine. My #1 choice is Stanford, and I do wish they rotated a little more to other hospitals for diversity. GTOWN VS GW really no comparison both great programs. GW we trust the presidents health with him, GTOWN very strong academic program that get little attention. you decide what works for you.

 

[DCIM]

I'm a GT resident and obviously biased but think it's an excellent program. Maybe I could have gone for more prestige if I looked outside of the DC area but really believed this was the best in DC.

GT is the biggest university hospital in the area with the most medical research funding and greatest number of faculty. That's a fact and not an opinion. There is not interventional cardiology at Georgetown Hospital, but that is more of an issue for EM residnets and cards fellows - not IM residents. People interested in Cards easily schedule time at WHC where the facutly, a great number of whom trained and worked at Gtown in the past, are happy to help with research and fellowship applications. Three years ago, GT placed 7 people in 7 differents cards places. The average number is 4/year. Cards has never been an issue.

Cards is just one division of medicine, and I can tell you that it would be news to any faculty at GT to find out they're inferior to their counterpart at GW.

As for the residents - you can look at the lists for GT and GW and you'd likely discover they come from pretty similar schools and go to similar fellowships.

 

[Minion677]

There is a Cath lab at GTOWN. it is used for diagnostic caths now because of the consolidation between gtown and WHC. UCLA rotates out of I believe three hospitals to get their broad experience. Rotating out of many hospitals can be a good thing as the PD told us during our interview. They have their univeristy hospital which is all tertiary care, then WHC for an urban flavor, then their 2 community hospitals, and a VA. It covers the complete spectrum of medicine. My #1 choice is Stanford, and I do wish they rotated a little more to other hospitals for diversity. GTOWN VS GW really no comparison both great programs. GW we trust the presidents health with him, GTOWN very strong academic program that get little attention. you decide what works for you.

Presidents/congressmen go to GW because its down the street from the White House... not because it has greater prestige than Georgetown.

At gtown you rotate at WHC, Fairfax and Arlington which all have busy cath labs. Georgetown hospital is the only one that doesnt, but I heard starting next year they will be doing more interventions there.

 

[verbalassasin]

I'm a GT resident and obviously biased but think it's an excellent program. Maybe I could have gone for more prestige if I looked outside of the DC area but really believed this was the best in DC.

GT is the biggest university hospital in the area with the most medical research funding and greatest number of faculty. That's a fact and not an opinion. There is not interventional cardiology at Georgetown Hospital, but that is more of an issue for EM residnets and cards fellows - not IM residents. People interested in Cards easily schedule time at WHC where the facutly, a great number of whom trained and worked at Gtown in the past, are happy to help with research and fellowship applications. Three years ago, GT placed 7 people in 7 differents cards places. The average number is 4/year. Cards has never been an issue.

Cards is just one division of medicine, and I can tell you that it would be news to any faculty at GT to find out they're inferior to their counterpart at GW.

As for the residents - you can look at the lists for GT and GW and you'd likely discover they come from pretty similar schools and go to similar fellowships.

I agree with you, it wasn't until I got on SDN that I heard that GW was better than Georgetown. My program Director hear at UCSD speaks highly about the Gtown program director. I was very impressed with my interview day, and If I was an east coaster my rank list would be so much different with Gtown in my top 3.

 

[tarlovcyst]

I agree with you, it wasn't until I got on SDN that I heard that GW was better than Georgetown. My program Director hear at UCSD speaks highly about the Gtown program director. I was very impressed with my interview day, and If I was an east coaster my rank list would be so much different with Gtown in my top 3.

Speaking highly of the PD vs speaking highly of the program are different things, buddy. Dr. Adams at GT is awesome. Quite a character.

But having an awesome PD doesn't necessarily transform into an awesome program. I know many top notch programs that have crappy PDs as well.

GT used to be golden in the DC area. But Bayview in MD is rising. GW is also rising quickly as well in internal medicine.

Rank it how you see fit. But if we were just talking about reputations on a national academic level, then what you read here stands.

 

[verbalassasin]

Speaking highly of the PD vs speaking highly of the program are different things, buddy. Dr. Adams at GT is awesome. Quite a character.

But having an awesome PD doesn't necessarily transform into an awesome program. I know many top notch programs that have crappy PDs as well.

GT used to be golden in the DC area. But Bayview in MD is rising. GW is also rising quickly as well in internal medicine.

Rank it how you see fit. But if we were just talking about reputations on a national academic level, then what you read here stands.

How can you have it both ways saying someone is great at their job, but their job is terrible? Why do so many Gtown grads wind up staying at gtown if their program is inferior to GW? That is always a telling sign if a program keeps a lot of their in grown talent. Compared to other programs where students run for the hills.

 

[gold&black2005]

How can you have it both ways saying someone is great at their job, but their job is terrible? Why do so many Gtown grads wind up staying at gtown if their program is inferior to GW? That is always a telling sign if a program keeps a lot of their in grown talent. Compared to other programs where students run for the hills.

Simple: they often want or need to stay in DC - and GTown kids don't do GW 😉

If I had a dollar for every time I lamented DC's lack of a strong IM program...

 

[theunderdog]

Simple: they often want or need to stay in DC - and GTown kids don't do GW 😉

If I had a dollar for every time I lamented DC's lack of a strong IM program...

Gold&Black, are you a New Orleans Saints fan?

That's cool that you are representing the colors!

 

[stankem]

How do the DC programs compare to UMaryland?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Personally I think the maryland program is stronger. I got a great feel from their program. It is strong clinically and has plenty of research.

Just looking at match lists between GT and Maryland I thought the Maryland match list was stronger. Regardless, I would put Hopkins bayview higher than all the others (UMD, GT, GW).

 

[Moonglow]

UM IM is considered stronger than all of the DC programs; and UM > Bayview. U. Maryland IM is a program, like UT-Houston, that turns out high quailty residents year after year.

 

[IMtoHO]

UM IM is considered stronger than all of the DC programs; and UM > Bayview. U. Maryland IM is a program, like UT-Houston, that turns out high quailty residents year after year.

How does UM compare to Hopkins (Osler) in clinical training and didactics?

 

[stankem]

How does UM compare to Hopkins (Osler) in clinical training and didactics?

Don't bait her.

 

[ResidentMD]

Don't bait her.

 

[Phineus]

How does UM compare to Hopkins (Osler) in clinical training and didactics?

Hopkins >>>> UM or Hopkins >>> UM; I always forget by how many > Hopkins is better than UM!

 

[Moonglow]

How does UM compare to Hopkins (Osler) in clinical training and didactics?

Well, UM IM is not Hopkins Osler...

But as a state school, U. of Maryland IM has different priorities than that of the top privates (Hopkins, Duke, Harvard, etc.) - they also cover the Baltimore VA. And like most state school residencies, UM IM wants their residents to stay and work in the Maryland/D.C. area.

(UM has built new facilities that closely rival those at say, UCLA, Pitt, U. Washington, and UT-Houston.)

The UM IM residency director Susan Wolfsthal, who is from Hopkins (Med-school, 1980, and Osler Residency) has run her program in a similar way as Osler for seventeen years. They use the four team system (like the Osler Firms) and their residents are clinically very strong. Camaraderie among residents is developed early, residents work at out-patient clinics all over the city, senior residents have a lot of autonomy, and UM IM fellowship placement is very strong, especially when compared to others in the greater Mid-Atlantic area.

UM residents do have greater access to a larger patient pathology, and concurrent academic/didactic instruction, than that of the D.C. programs (Shock Trauma, heart/lung transplant, etc.).

 

[Scaredshizzles]

The UM IM residency director Susan Wolfsthal, who is from Hopkins (Med-school, 1980, and Osler Residency) has run her program in a similar way as Osler for seventeen years.

Should have known that is why you would talk up UM, lol.

 

[vinci1283]

UM IM is considered stronger than all of the DC programs; and UM > Bayview...

Can someone substantiate this or give their objective feedback on that statement?

 

[verbalassasin]

UM residents do have greater access to a larger patient pathology, and concurrent academic/didactic instruction, than that of the D.C. programs (Shock Trauma, heart/lung transplant, etc.).[/QUOTE]


Really? Georgetown rotates out of 5 hospitals, Their residents have Tertiary care at the University Hospital, They go to a VA, two private community hospitals and the Urban Mecca that is the Washington Hospital center.

George Washington also has a very diverse patient population, and their hospital is such a hybrid that it is in a university setting but a level one trauma center.

I think residents from any of these programs can hold their own when compared to UM resident.

Lets face it, the comparrison of which program is best does not make sense because we all will be in charge of patients, and make life or death decisions. Now weather I'm a resident at Gtown, GW or GW (Oh God..let it be Stanford), doesn't matter, what matters is where you fit best.

 

[cardsorbust]

UM IM is considered stronger than all of the DC programs; and UM > Bayview. U. Maryland IM is a program, like UT-Houston, that turns out high quailty residents year after year.

How in the world does UT-Houston enter this conversation unless you went there and U-Maryland? If that were the case at least your own personal biases could help explain it away. Otherwise, it's a non-sequitur.

I'm not sure how many of the posters on here are so confident about emphatically judging the programs which they have likely have never even visited much less been on the staff. I guess it's like arguing which college football team is #1 when many are worthy and people don't even watch the majority of the games to accurately judge.

"Some people wave their dogmatic thinking until their own reason is entangled." -Samuel Johnson

 

[Moonglow]

How in the world does UT-Houston enter this conversation unless you went there and U-Maryland?

I worked at UT-Houston for four years when I attended Rice University; I did my IM residency at Hopkins Osler (M.D. at Duke); and I am currently a fellow at the U. of Maryland Medical Center.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

I worked at UT-Houston for four years when I attended Rice University; I did my IM residency at Hopkins Osler (M.D. at Duke); and I am currently a fellow at the U. of Maryland Medical Center.

You rolled wheelchairs at UTH, thus UTH produces high quality residents? C'mon. Now I'm not disagreeing UTH produces some good residents, although it is an IMG heavy program at this point. But I think Baylor produces very competent residents too. Now that Ben Taub is the flagship, residents get their share of autonomy.

 

[ResidentMD]

You rolled wheelchairs at UTH, thus UTH produces high quality residents? C'mon. Now I'm not disagreeing UTH produces some good residents, although it is an IMG heavy program at this point. But I think Baylor produces very competent residents too. Now that Ben Taub is the flagship, residents get their share of autonomy.

I wanted to stay out of this conversation as I saw where it was headed, but I have to agree with shizzles on this one. When I saw the UT-Houston reference, what shizzles said above was the first thing that came to my mind; why single out UT-Houston when it has an equally good Baylor beside it? Anyway, I think hopefully the point that you wanted to convey was that UT-Houston stands for "any decent academic, internal medicine training program that produces competent residents"..and there are at least 40-50 of them in the US, if not more.

 

[Moonglow]

Our adcom ranks Baylor IM residency in the Top 10 - I've spent hundreds of hours at Baylor. (My post was to address a question posed by another poster).

Baylor is very strong - on my ROL, I had them ranked 3rd, behind Hopkins and Duke.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Our adcom ranks Baylor IM residency in the Top 10 - I've spent hundreds of hours at Baylor. (My post was to address a question posed by another poster).

Baylor is very strong - on my ROL, I had them ranked 3rd, behind Hopkins and Duke.

Are you talking about that same Hopkins IM adcom? That still makes zero sense to me. Why would a residency program selection committee rank other residency programs? Don't you think it would make more sense to rank the medical schools from which their applicants come from? If there is any kind of ranking, I'm sure it is of medical schools. And of course that list will be biased towards those schools which Hopkins tends to take a lot of applicants from. The fact that Hopkins would have a list like that of med schools in the first place is kind of pretentious if you ask me, but it wouldn't surprise me, I kind of get the sense that that is how Hopkins rolls. Certainly I think it is more reasonable for an SDN poster like myself to make lists like that as opposed to programs who should be evaluating individuals.

 

[Moonglow]

Man, you really run with somethings there Scaredshizzles. 🙂

Similar residency programs compete with each other for the same top talent. Everyone ranks everyone else: med-schools, residency and fellowship programs, every person invovled. We all want to know about each other at this level, and judgement of institutions is part of the process of selecting individuals.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Man, you really run with somethings there Scaredshizzles. 🙂

Similar residency programs compete with each other for the same top talent. Everyone ranks everyone else: med-schools, residency and fellowship programs, every person invovled. We all want to know about each other at this level, and judgement of institutions is part of the process of selecting individuals.

But there is no competition there...Don't you recall...


1. Hopkins











2. UCSF




21. BWH

I don't buy that the residency adcom is looking at rankings of other internal medicine residencies. Makes absolutely zero sense. There are a fair number of very well reputed im programs out there that do not have super competitive medical students and vice versa. Do you mean to tell me that because USC has a poorly reputed IM residency program, that their med students wouldn't have a chance to go to top IM residencies? USC the med school is like top 30, and extremely well know in some areas, including surgical specialties. People who get into USC are competitive. If Hopkins really is making judgments based on how good the IM program is at the home institution, then clearly they won't be getting the best possible residents.

 

[chitown82]

Hehe

 

[Instatewaiter]

I worked at UT-Houston for four years when I attended Rice University; I did my IM residency at Hopkins Osler (M.D. at Duke); and I am currently a fellow at the U. of Maryland Medical Center.

With your elitist attitude, I bet that really steamed you that you ended up at Maryland after going to Osler and Duke, especially since Maryland is right down the road from Hopkins.

I'm glad that you took your MD apps page down. It was about time- as a fellow.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

With your elitist attitude, I bet that really steamed you that you ended up at Maryland after going to Osler and Duke, especially since Maryland is right down the road from Hopkins.

I'm glad that you took your MD apps page down. It was about time- as a fellow.

I doubt it bothers her, after all the Osler name carries on forever. We have the same joke in NY about anyone who ever has done any form of training at Columbia Presbyterian. They will bring it up about 5x in any conversation.

 

[RonBurgandy]

Maybe if she had done residency at MGH she could have made it to Hopkins for Fellowship.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Maybe if she had done residency at MGH she could have made it to Hopkins for Fellowship.

All kidding aside, I'm sure she could've got into an elite fellowship if location was not a concern. She's one of those people who choose to stay in a certain area. This always confuses my attempts at deciphering match lists. 🙁 LOL.

 

[cardsorbust]

Well this posting went to hell in a hand basket. I'm glad I could be a part of it.

I have worked at Hopkins and one of the things I really like is actually the lack of pretentious people on the two main campuses (JHH and JH Bayview). It is not the norm. Even Moonglow would probably agree with me there. I've never been to Sinai but doubt they are pretentious as it is a community program and probably friendly too.

I hope everyone ends up where they are happiest with their colleagues, the program structure/mission and their location.

Now let's get back to the sparring.😎 That was fun.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Well this posting went to hell in a hand basket. I'm glad I could be a part of it.

I have worked at Hopkins and one of the things I really like is actually the lack of pretentious people on the two main campuses (JHH and JH Bayview). It is not the norm. Even Moonglow would probably agree with me there.

Now let's get back to the sparring.😎 That was fun.

I was actually astounded by how down to earth both the Hopkins Osler and Bayview people were. After going there, I was surprised that anyone could really feel the need to be that elitist coming from Osler. I mean it's olser- probably the best IM program in the world. Why be elitist? Everyone knows its an incredible program

All kidding aside, I'm sure she could've got into an elite fellowship if location was not a concern. She's one of those people who choose to stay in a certain area. This always confuses my attempts at deciphering match lists. 🙁 LOL.

Hopkins is literally blocks away from UMD (just trying to fan the flames and turn that elitist attitude against her) so that's not it.

 

[Waiting4Ganong]

.

 

[vinci1283]

.

I didnt think your post was any "meaner" than the ones we often get on SDN. Thanks for the usual wittiness though. SDN should be open to inquiry/commentary and your being familiar with the Baltimore programs, your insight may even be more accurate than most that aren't from there. I say just keep it . 👍

 

[mecmd]

Wow! Some pretty harsh stuff on this forum. I'm a newcomer, but thought I'd post now that Match Day's only 2 days away. I tend to agree with Moonglow though. I interviewed at all 4 of these programs, and I got the best vibe from Maryland. I don't think GW or Bayview are on the same level as MD or GT academically. I know Bayview has Hopkins faculty, but in the end it's a pretty small community hospital. I think patient diversity is a bit of a wash, although Maryland sees the most indigent care. Combine that with the VA right next door, and I think Maryland residents do see a lot more natural course of disease. I know GW and GT see a lot more white collar medicine.

Personally, I think all 4 programs have merit, but I ranked Maryland highest. Just my two cents. Doesn't mean anything to anyone matching this year, but maybe next year's applicants can weigh in again.