The Decision!

[Thumper17]

If you havent already, go read Bill Simmons mailbag on espn.com with all of the emails he got, and even his article before "the debocle". Simmons is one of my top fav sports writers. But reading these peoples emails makes me hurt for them but laugh at the same time. Thanks Lebron for making me laugh at work.

This is the greatest thing ever. He is an amazing writer, how he can churn out articles that are so good so fast is beyond me. Those emails are hilarious, poor Cleveland

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[StevePerry]

Basketball was played before 1984. There are two dominating players in NBA history. There is Wilt Chamberlain and there is Michael Jordan. There is nobody else close to the level they reached. Not Shaq, not Kobe, not Lebron, nobody....

Dude, why you downin' Kobe? He's a Philly boy if my memory serves me correctly, so you should like him. Plus he's every bit as good/clutch as Jordan without the refs calling a foul on the other team for just looking at him wrong. 7 NBA finals appearances vs. 6, and you can't even use the excuse that Shaq was responsible for the first 4 appearances since he apparently is not that good in history's eyes either!

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer, I am starting to think that you have not really watched basketball within the last 20 years. No 10 win teams back in your day huh? It's a little dated but it makes my point:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basketball/nba_worst_records_by_team.htm

Now you are just pissing me off. In addition you are showing diminished mental capacity.

No it does not make your point. In general yes, athletes are paid more. That proves what? So do movie stars, does that make them better actors? Modern athletes train better, eat better and are in better physical shape than in years past. That makes Chamberlain's numbers even more amazing and makes Shaq's numbers pale in comparison. Modern day sports have too many teams and the talent is way to diluted. Yes, there are always going to be bad teams, but there are more of them now. The level of competition was much greater when there are fewer teams. In 1961 there were nine teams with twelve players each. That means the NBA head the best 108 pro players. The present NBA has 30 teams with the best 360 players. That means that over 250 players in the NBA now would not make the roster when Wilt was in is hey day. You think the NBA would more competitive if the ten best teams played each other for 80 games?

You claim Shaw is a better athlete, yet he couldn't bench press as much as Wilt 500LB, **** Wilt could still bench press 450 lbs when he was over 50. Wilt played just about every minute of every game in every season. Shaq was so fat and out shape he could never keep up with Wilt. Chamberlain was the superior athlete in every way shape or form.

You really think that an era with salaries were measured in tens of thousands can compete with todays game where there are generations of children doing nothing but playing basketball 24/7 to have just a tiny shot at making it into the NBA and it's guaranteed tens-hundreds of millions? Not to mention basketball starting to have a WORLD-WIDE following, bringing the best players the WORLD has to offer as opposed to just the USA during Wilts time.

This has nothing to do with the relative talents of Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal

During your lifetime, sports have changed from a hobby (many athletes had second jobs to support themselves/family through offseasons) to a full-time profession. Guys today are bigger, stronger, and faster. Period.

Babe Ruth dominated his time. So did Dick Butkus. So did Wilt Chamberlin. They would still be outclassed today by Pujols, Ray Lewis, and Shaq and other athletes of the 1990s-2000s. So it will be 30 years from now when I am on this board talking about how Shaq was the best ever.

In general guys today are bigger and in netter shape. But Wilt Chamberlain was a freak of Nature. Are you aware he broke a players shoulder while blocking a shot and did not commit a foul?

Your general assumption is true. Athletes are better today than in previous generations. It's just false in this comparison in this case. I'll close with this. Just to show you how truly dominating he was. Shaq scored more than 60 points just once.

Pts Player, Team Opponent Date
=== ============ ======== ====

100 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia New York 3/2/1962
81 Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers Toronto 1/22/2006
78 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia LA Lakers 12/8/1961 (3OT)
73 David Thompson, Denver Detroit 4/9/1978
73 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco New York 11/16/1962
73 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Chicago 1/13/1962
72 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco LA Lakers 11/3/1962
71 David Robinson, San Antonio LA Clippers 4/24/1994
71 Elgin Baylor, LA Lakers New York 11/15/1960
70 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco Syracuse 3/10/1963
69 Michael Jordan, Chicago Cleveland 3/28/1990 (OT)
68 Pete Maravich, New Orleans New York 2/25/1977
68 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Chicago 12/16/1967
67 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco LA Lakers 1/11/1963
67 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia New York 2/25/1962
67 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia St Louis 2/17/1962
67 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia New York 3/9/1961
66 Wilt Chamberlain, LA Lakers Phoenix 2/9/1969
65 Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers Portland 3/16/2007
65 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia LA Lakers 2/7/1966
65 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia St Louis 2/27/1962
65 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Cincinnati 2/13/1962
64 Michael Jordan, Chicago Orlando 1/16/1993 (OT)
64 Rick Barry, Golden State Portland 3/26/1974
64 Elgin Baylor, Minneapolis Boston 11/8/1959
63 George Gervin, San Antonio New Orleans 4/9/1978
63 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco Philadelphia 11/26/1964
63 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco LA Lakers 12/14/1962
63 Jerry West, LA Lakers New York 1/17/1962
63 Elgin Baylor, LA Lakers Philadelphia 12/8/1961 (3OT)
63 Joe Fulks, Philadelphia Indiana 2/10/1949
62 Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers Dallas 12/20/2005
62 Tracy McGrady, Orlando Washington 3/10/2004
62 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco Philadelphia 3/3/1966
62 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco Cincinnati 11/15/1964
62 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco New York 1/29/1963
62 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Syracuse 1/21/1962 (OT)
62 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia St Louis 1/17/1962 (OT)
62 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Boston 1/14/1962
61 Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers New York 2/2/2009
61 Shaquille O'Neal, LA Lakers LA Clippers 3/6/2000
61 Karl Malone, Utah Milwaukee 1/27/1990
61 Michael Jordan, Chicago Atlanta 4/16/1987
61 Michael Jordan, Chicago Detroit 3/4/1987 (OT)
61 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco St Louis 12/18/1962
61 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco Syracuse 12/11/1962
61 Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco Cincinnati 11/21/1962
61 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Chicago 2/28/1962
61 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia St Louis 2/22/1962
61 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia Chicago 12/9/1961
61 George Mikan, Minneapolis Rochester 1/20/1952 (2OT)
60 Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers Memphis 3/22/2007
60 Gilbert Arenas, Washington Los Angeles 12/17/2006 (OT)
60 Allen Iverson, Philadelphia Orlando 2/12/2005
60 Tom Chambers, Phoenix Seattle 3/24/1990
60 Larry Bird, Boston Atlanta 3/12/1985
60 Bernard King, New York New Jersey 12/25/1984
60 Wilt Chamberlain, LA Lakers Cincinnati 1/26/1969
60 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia LA Lakers 12/29/1961
60 Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia LA Lakers 12/1/1961

Wilt did it 32 times. Just tell me what you base your opinion on? What facts
do you have to justify this claim. Wilt scored more points in less games, played
more minutes in fewer seasons and owns more records than anybody in the
history of the NBA. That makes him the best player that ever played.

 

[Its Z]

wilt chamberlain physically dominated everyone in his era like no one else. could he dominate against modern players? questionable... does he have the best records? yes. was he the best in his era? yes. is he today? obviously not since he doesnt play nor will we ever know. this sort of debate has no winners.

 

[Trankuil]

Not that im agreeing with either side, but Old timer just fron a different perspective those numbers can also prove how much easier it was to score over 60 ppg in the 60s vs now. But Wilt was a freak, i have no arguement there and actually favor your side on this one, even though I think greatest player ever titles are all generally stupid.

 

[bear9288]

Not that im agreeing with either side, but Old timer just fron a different perspective those numbers can also prove how much easier it was to score over 60 ppg in the 60s vs now. But Wilt was a freak, i have no arguement there and actually favor your side on this one, even though I think greatest player ever titles are all generally stupid.

I agree. The past players laid/created the foundations on how to play basketball today, but modern day players are much, much better, and baskets are more difficult to come by. Especially for big men.

Many people in the 80s seem like they have trouble dribbling with their left hands. Today, every NBA player can do that and much more. They are bigger, stronger, and faster than before. NBA has a bigger market, and thus more people playing, and thus a bigger pool to choose the best from. It has gone a lot more global and has a much larger fan-base in the US and around the world.

Kids can turn to youtube or watch old MJ clips and copy their moves. People are simply better today. How many 7foot, wingspan of like 7ft9inch players that have 30inch verticles, freakish strength players did will face in his time? It is much, much easier to get a shot off against players of his era.

But everyone was amazed jordan could dunk from the freethrow line. Nowadays you have people as big as dwight howard that could prob do it and people as small as derrick rose, who is a freak of nature, who would be very close.

Rules have also changed. Before, handchecking was allowed and buckets were harder to score for little guys. Now, any guard can get 20pts. Big men have it hard nowadays because the NBA wants dunks and crossovers.

Obviously, if your argument was who was better relative to their time, it was wilt. If it is, who is better overall, I think it debatable but i give the nod to shaq. he is a freak of nature.

 

[Old Timer]

I hope you guys read clinical studies better than you read information here.

The premise is the players are better now than before. That doesn't make the game better or more difficult. If that is the case, why is there less scoring now? Remember, there was no three point shot, and zone defense was permitted. Yet, there was more scoring back in Wilt's time??? Do they play better defense now? Defense in the NBA is an oxymoron. Did you know in the 1960's every team had a hall of famer. Not so today as the talent is diluted. I think the best players can play in any era and still be great players. But there are so many players in the NBA that would not make the cut in a nine team league.

The next thing I hear is Wilt played against inferior competition. That's a load of crap. Wilt played against Bill Russell 14 times year. Wilt played against all of the following Centers:

• Bill Russell 6'10" (Hall Of Fame)
• Willis Reed 6'10" (Hall Of Fame)
• Walt Bellamy 6'11" (Hall Of Fame)
• Nate Thurmond 6'11" (Hall Of Fame)
• Kareem Abdul Jabbar 7'2" (Hall Of Fame)
• Artis Gilmore: 7'2"

How may slow, dumb, white guys on that list? How many HOF centers did Shaq play against. How many times did he face them in a year? Since the talent was concentrated, I maintain that Wilt played against way stronger competition than Shaq, any day. And if height had anything to do with it, Manute Bol would have been the greatest player in NBA history.

Then I get "those numbers can also prove how much easier it was to score over 60 ppg in the 60s vs now.'

If that's the case why is it that 20 players from that list are from the modern era and only eight are from the "olden days". Even with that Wilt dominates the list.

I like a good argument. It's what makes sports fun. But I would like to see some evidence as to why anyone would conclude Shaq is a better player than Wilt.

 

[Sparda29]

I gotta agree with Old Timer, basketball today is a pansies game. What's so hard about dribbling a ball and trying to get it into a rather large basket from 15 feet away, especially when the guys defending you pretty much can't touch you at all. Only way to play baseketball is when there are no rules regarding physical contact, if you're going for a layup, you are very likely to get knocked down.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Jordan was the greatest of all time. Stilt could score it, but Jordan's defense (easily top 10 all time) and leadership were unmatched. He made his teammates better. When you have Pippen (an all time great himself), Grant, Kukoc, Armstrong, Rodman, and so on...you don't score 100 points. Statistics do not take the team situation into account. The bottom line is that when he came back in '95, they went from an above average team to the greatest team ever losing only 10 games the entire year. He elevated his entire team. And he was as clutch as imaginable. He hit so many game winners, it is ridiculous.

So...no. Points isn't the only thing that matters...and Jordan has every single intangible thing going for him you can think of. If there was a draft...I take Mike in his prime over anyone that has ever played the game.

 

[Old Timer]

Jordan was the greatest of all time. Stilt could score it, but Jordan's defense (easily top 10 all time) and leadership were unmatched. He made his teammates better. When you have Pippen (an all time great himself), Grant, Kukoc, Armstrong, Rodman, and so on...you don't score 100 points. Statistics do not take the team situation into account. The bottom line is that when he came back in '95, they went from an above average team to the greatest team ever losing only 10 games the entire year. He elevated his entire team. And he was as clutch as imaginable. He hit so many game winners, it is ridiculous.

So...no. Points isn't the only thing that matters...and Jordan has every single intangible thing going for him you can think of. If there was a draft...I take Mike in his prime over anyone that has ever played the game.

Now there is fair but not completely accurate comment. Jordan is the only one in a class with Wilt. But what you don't record is that in 1967-68 when Wilt finally had a team they asked him to score less. So he just went out and lead the league in assists. What other center has done that? Jordan also played well over 40 minutes a game. He is without a doubt right up there with Wilt...

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

Jordan was the greatest of all time. Stilt could score it, but Jordan's defense (easily top 10 all time) and leadership were unmatched. He made his teammates better. When you have Pippen (an all time great himself), Grant, Kukoc, Armstrong, Rodman, and so on...you don't score 100 points. Statistics do not take the team situation into account. The bottom line is that when he came back in '95, they went from an above average team to the greatest team ever losing only 10 games the entire year. He elevated his entire team. And he was as clutch as imaginable. He hit so many game winners, it is ridiculous.

So...no. Points isn't the only thing that matters...and Jordan has every single intangible thing going for him you can think of. If there was a draft...I take Mike in his prime over anyone that has ever played the game.

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately I wasn't around to see Wilt play, so I have no personal connection...it's hard to look at a stat sheet and compare.

All I know is the NBA is unwatchable now that MJ is gone. I mean, I used to turn on the tv just to see him play the Washington Bullets or Golden State Warriors. You'd be hard pressed to find me watch the finals now.

You guys would've laughed if you had seen my bedroom as a teen though. MJ and Cowboys posters plastered on every inch. But a life-size one of these was over the bed.

 

[Its Z]

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately I wasn't around to see Wilt play, so I have no personal connection...it's hard to look at a stat sheet and compare.

All I know is the NBA is unwatchable now that MJ is gone. I mean, I used to turn on the tv just to see him play the Washington Bullets or Golden State Warriors. You'd be hard pressed to find me watch the finals now.

You guys would've laughed if you had seen my bedroom as a teen though. MJ and Cowboys posters plastered on every inch. But a life-size one of these was over the bed.

dork

 

[WVUPharm2007]

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately I wasn't around to see Wilt play, so I have no personal connection...it's hard to look at a stat sheet and compare.

All I know is the NBA is unwatchable now that MJ is gone. I mean, I used to turn on the tv just to see him play the Washington Bullets or Golden State Warriors. You'd be hard pressed to find me watch the finals now.

You guys would've laughed if you had seen my bedroom as a teen though. MJ and Cowboys posters plastered on every inch. But a life-size one of these was over the bed.

Wow. A Cowboys and Bulls fan...in the mid 90s...nope...no bandwagon here.

I had a Rod Woodson poster and a Barry Bonds poster from when he played with the Pirates.

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

Wow. A Cowboys and Bulls fan...in the mid 90s...nope...no bandwagon here.

I had a Rod Woodson poster and a Barry Bonds poster from when he played with the Pirates.

No. I had a signed Gators Emmitt poster before he was even a Cowboy.

And I was a Jordan fan...not necessarily a Bulls fan. It was always a dream to see him play. Of course the year I moved back to the States, he retired from the Bulls. When he came back to the Wizards, I bought season tickets for the Heat since the single games sold out. Then I sold every ticket but the 2 Wizards games. It wasn't the same as seeing him in his prime...but I wasn't going to miss it.

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

Wow. A Cowboys and Bulls fan...in the mid 90s...nope...no bandwagon here.

I had a Rod Woodson poster and a Barry Bonds poster from when he played with the Pirates.

You still watch baseball?

 

[TonyRx]

I agree, there's Wilt and MJ on a platform of greatness and then everyone else just falls somewhere behind. Some come close to them, like; Magic, Bird, Russel, etc...but MJ and Wilt are in a league of their own.

Today's NBA sucks to watch. I'm only 27 and I can't stand to watch it at times. The refs are horrible, the rules are overbearing and the level of talent isn't what it used to be. I loved basketball in the 90's, with the hard fouls, bashing under the rim and the intense competition between the Bulls, Knicks, Pacers, Jazz, Rockets and etc. The 70's and 80's were also intense and just as amazing to watch. Nowadays the NBA is full of cry babies, thugs, immaturity and just plain overpaid and disrespectful punks.

There are a handful of extremely talented and awesome players that are playing today, but unfortunately they are overshadowed by the nonsense and stupidity of the rest of the league. I wish Jordan and the great players of the past would have never aged.

 

[Thumper17]

Bill Russell

Height: 6-10
Weight: 220 pounds

Bill Russell AVERAGED 22.5 rebounds a game in the 1960s. AVERAGED. This is the big bad competition for Wilt? The guy who won TEN championships and 5 MVPs during the great Wilts time in the NBA? Pretty Scary!

Wanna know who weighs 220ish pounds in the NBA today?

Derek Fisher

Height: 6-1
Weight: 210 lbs.

Kwame Brown is 270 lbs.! He is a beast next to Bill Russell!

Literally, Shaq is all of Wilt and 2/3 of Bill Russell. Stop looking at numbers. I don't care. Numbers mean nothing when playing against different competition, like a scientific experiment without a control.

You have the guy that you like, I have the guy that I like. No need for you to be upset, it is just a difference of opinion. You grew up watching Wilt, I grew up watching Shaq. Wilt was undoubtedly a top ten player all-time, but I just don't feel he would be near the player you grew up watching in the 1990s-2000s game Shaq/Zo/Duncan/Hakeem/Ewing were a part of.

 

[Pharmcdc]

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately I wasn't around to see Wilt play, so I have no personal connection...it's hard to look at a stat sheet and compare.

All I know is the NBA is unwatchable now that MJ is gone. I mean, I used to turn on the tv just to see him play the Washington Bullets or Golden State Warriors. You'd be hard pressed to find me watch the finals now.

You guys would've laughed if you had seen my bedroom as a teen though. MJ and Cowboys posters plastered on every inch. But a life-size one of these was over the bed.

OMG!!!! Jordan and Cowboys!!!! We would have been best friends!!!!!!! lol

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You still watch baseball?

Baseball is the sport you watch because there is nothing else on TV. Much like the World Cup. I watched it today...I saw the Pirates pathetically squander a lead to the Brewers in the 9th for like the 40th time in the last decade.

God, they suck...

 

[StevePerry]

Kwame Brown is 270 lbs.! He is a beast next to Bill Russell!

.

That is the upside to the argument, the downside is he is Kwame Brown.

BTW Can we take points away from Jordan in this debate for putting any kind of faith in Kwame Freaking Brown?

 

[Old Timer]

That is the upside to the argument, the downside is he is Kwame Brown.

BTW Can we take points away from Jordan in this debate for putting any kind of faith in Kwame Freaking Brown?

He compared Kwame Brown to Bill Russell. That means he really does not know anything about basketball..

 

[Thumper17]

He compared Kwame Brown to Bill Russell. That means he really does not know anything about basketball..

Yes, saying that the joke of recent basketball drafts could physically dominate Bill Russell means nothing about the era in which Bill Russell played.....

Dirk Nowitzki

Height: 7-0
Weight: 245 lbs.

BEAST.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, saying that the joke of recent basketball drafts could physically dominate Bill Russell means nothing about the era in which Bill Russell played.....

Dirk Nowitzki

Height: 7-0
Weight: 245 lbs.

BEAST.

You just don't get it. Height and weight don't make you a beast.

 

[rxforlife2004]

screw basketball

a bunch of setups from las vegas....what a scam! it's all fake!

 

[Thumper17]

You just don't get it. Height and weight don't make you a beast.

No, it doesn't. BUt, they can EXCLUDE you from being one of the best basketball players of all time.

If Alan Iverson was 6-5 and not 5-10, or Barkley 6-11 instead of 6-5, then we would think about them much differently in basketball history.