The "Fauci Effect" and its impact on applicants (not applications)

[r2med]

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Aren’t those the same? I maybe be wrong but each applicant can only submit one application, so those terms are definitely interchangeable.

You are one applicant. How many schools you apply to is the the number of applications.

 

[KnightDoc]

Aren’t those the same? I maybe be wrong but each applicant can only submit one application, so those terms are definitely interchangeable.

No, the terms are NOT interchangeable because each applicant typically submits 20-30 applications. So, applicants is the number of people applying while applications is the aggregate number of applications submitted across all schools. Both are up. More people are applying, and on average, they are applying to more schools than in the past. @Fawna made an excellent point -- the increases are certainly at least partially attributable to increased access to FAP this cycle.

 

[southernhope1]

Aren’t those the same? I maybe be wrong but each applicant can only submit one application, so those terms are definitely interchangeable.

There are really two things going on here....many applicants are putting in more applications than last year...a pre-med might have applied to 18 schools in the past and now he goes for 25. But there are also simply more people deciding to apply at all. To be specific, 7,500 additional applicants applied nationwide this year. And the class size did not increase....so > 😭

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

With more free time comes more apps and also increase in number of applicants may be making some to apply more.

 

[KnightDoc]

With more free time comes more apps and also increase in number of applicants may be making some to apply more.

Yes and no!! Yes to free time, but no to more applicants. When people decided to apply to more schools, they had no idea there would be more applicants. Some people correctly predicted it, others thought apps might drop, and a lot of people thought they'd be the same.

The big drivers, besides, of course, limited meaningful alternatives due to COVID pushing forward applications from future years, are surely virtual interviews and, as pointed out above, increased availability of FAP, which was designed to allow more people to apply (it worked! 🙂), and also has the effect of encouraging them to apply to more schools, since most schools waive their secondary fees for FAP applicants, even beyond the 20 primary apps that included in the FAP.

 

[pierty]

Based upon my own school, plus the Adcoms of SDN I've asked about this, I estimate The number of apllicants who have no business applying to med school run anywhere from 10-50%!

These are people who should only be on campus as a standardized patient, or a cadaver.

I am late to this thread, but I noticed that someone else here raised the question of why people are "scared-off" from sdn.

When one of the most knowledgeable people on the site is this callous and disrespectful, it is absolutely clear why... and this is nothing to say about all the unknowledgeable, elitist, neurotic pre-meds that have no business giving advice, and continuously make the field a worse place to train and deliver care; just look at the derogatory, "stupid" designation one of them delivered to the majority of applicants in this very thread.

Calling people "dumb," and saying that they only belong at medical school if they are dead is a great way to demotivate people out of medicine, instead of identifying where they can improve to get into it. It's also, subsequently, an incredible way to attract terrible physicians to the field that are the least bit concerned with whether their patients live or die, but will fight tooth-and-nail to ensure they have enough time to fly to Cabo twice a year.

I love this field, with every fiber of my being, because of its practice. But I can't stand the culture (*in some circles, including sdn).

Let's change it.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I am late to this thread, but I noticed that someone else here raised the question of why people are "scared-off" from sdn.

When one of the most knowledgeable people on the site is this callous and disrespectful, it is absolutely clear why... and this is nothing to say about all the unknowledgeable, elitist, neurotic pre-meds that have no business giving advice, and continuously make the field a worse place to train and deliver care; just look at the derogatory, "stupid" designation one of them delivered to the majority of applicants n this very thread.

Calling people "dumb," and saying that they only belong at medical school if they are dead is a great way to demotivate people out of medicine, instead of identifying where they can improve to get into it. It's also, subsequently, an incredible way to attract terrible physicians to the field that are the least bit concerned with whether their patients live or die, but will fight tooth-and-nail to ensure they have enough time to fly to Cabo twice a year.

I love this field, with every fiber of my being, because of it's practice. But I can't stand the culture.

Let's change it.

Like that Texas application thread says, "True words are not always pretty". SDN doesn't always coddle you and tell you what you want to hear. He said that a lot of applicants had no business applying to med school and that's true. YOU inferred that they were dumb. They may not be dumb. A lot have no business applying to med school because they don't research what it takes to get into one. Some people have no idea that they need have EC's or put time into studying for the MCAT. A lot of applicants are just straight up unprepared or unwilling to do what it takes. Some don't know how to follow simple instructions and aren't the best at making decisions. There are probably a lot of reasons (that go beyond brains) why, though harsh, he feels these people should only be allowed on med school campuses as cadavers.

 

[pierty]

Like that Texas application thread says, "True words are not always pretty". SDN doesn't always coddle you and tell you what you want to hear. He said that a lot of applicants had no business applying to med school and that's true. YOU inferred that they were dumb. They may not be dumb. A lot have no business applying to med school because they don't research what it takes to get into one. Some people have no idea that they need have EC's or put time into studying for the MCAT. A lot of applicants are just straight up unprepared or unwilling to do what it takes. Some don't know how to follow simple instructions and aren't the best at making decisions. There are probably a lot of reasons (that go beyond brains) why, though harsh, he feels these people should only be allowed on med school campuses as cadavers.

I did not infer that - instead, I was quoting one of the (presumable) pre-meds that called thousands of applicants "stupid" (unless you want to pettifog synonyms).

In addition, I did NOT condone "coddling" of applicants; that's a straw-man. I am specifically advocating for telling people what they "don't want to hear," which is what they need to improve. But you can say this - and have people understand it much better - without telling them that they hold as much value to medicine as a cadaver.

Do not perpetuate this culture. It is toxic, malignant, and hurts everyone.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I did not infer that - instead, I was quoting one of the (presumable) pre-meds that called thousands of applicants "stupid" (unless you want to pettifog synonyms).

In addition, I did NOT condone "coddling" of applicants; that's a straw-man. I am specifically advocating for telling people what they "don't want to hear," which is what they need to improve. But you can say this - and have people understand it much better - without telling them that they hold as much value to medicine as a cadaver.

Do not perpetuate this culture. It is toxic, malignant, and hurts everyone.

I've been on this site for a while. A lot of the people on here get told what they don't want to hear and don't take the advice given to them because it's not what they want to hear. There's usually no understanding it "much better". Some of the people on here do have harsh takes, probably from having to answer the same questions over and over, but they don't come on here to be toxic or bully people.

 

[Goro]

I am late to this thread, but I noticed that someone else here raised the question of why people are "scared-off" from sdn.

When one of the most knowledgeable people on the site is this callous and disrespectful, it is absolutely clear why... and this is nothing to say about all the unknowledgeable, elitist, neurotic pre-meds that have no business giving advice, and continuously make the field a worse place to train and deliver care; just look at the derogatory, "stupid" designation one of them delivered to the majority of applicants in this very thread.

Calling people "dumb," and saying that they only belong at medical school if they are dead is a great way to demotivate people out of medicine, instead of identifying where they can improve to get into it. It's also, subsequently, an incredible way to attract terrible physicians to the field that are the least bit concerned with whether their patients live or die, but will fight tooth-and-nail to ensure they have enough time to fly to Cabo twice a year.

I love this field, with every fiber of my being, because of its practice. But I can't stand the culture (*in some circles, including sdn).

Let's change it.

Stop projecting. Like it or not, and I've experienced teaching people like this, there are people who simply cannot handle the intellectual rigor of medical school.

And while you're at it get used to unpleasant truths.

Lastly, if someone is scared away from following their passion into a career in Medicine based upon the comments on an internet bulletin board, then they have no business being in Medicine in the first place.

 

[pierty]

Stop projecting. Like it or not, and I've experienced teaching people like this, there are people who simply cannot handle the intellectual rigor of medical school.

And while you're at it get used to unpleasant truths.

Lastly, if someone is scared away from following their passion into a career in Medicine based upon the comments on an internet bulletin board, then they have no business being in Medicine in the first place.

I am not sure it is apt to say that someone should only enter medical campuses as a cadaver, is an "unpleasant truth." I also didn't say that people were scared from medicine based on an internet bulletin board, but that they are "scared-off" from sdn in particular because of the bullying and harassment on the site (in addition to the loads of misinformation present).

But thank you for the ad-hominems. I have seen enough real "unpleasant truths" in my lifetime to know that medical school admissions is a pleasant park-stroll on a sunny Saturday next to them.

My point is clear - I've seen how this toxic culture produces toxic physicians; bullying people into action only accrues you individuals who score quite high in all 3 Dark Triad personality traits in one cohort, and pathologically low (i.e., severe imposter syndrome) on the other. Neither of these groups tend to perform particularly well clinically, and the former group tends to fake and manipulate data in research for personal gains, leading to the massive data reproducibility problem in translational medicine we see today.

Motivating people through constructive criticism and positive reinforcement is much better correlated with significant clinical outcomes, and properly acquired behaviors, than positive punishment. It also leads to physicians with higher satisfaction, and quality of life measures.

We all highly value the advice and wisdom you are able to provide the community (that goes without saying). But there are ways you can give the same advice without demeaning people - and if you really wanted to see people take that advice, it wouldn't hurt to try avoiding saying that they would be more to medicine if they were dead.

 

[Goro]

I am not sure it is apt to say that someone should only enter medical campuses as a cadaver, is an "unpleasant truth." I also didn't say that people were scared from medicine based on an internet bulletin board, but that they are "scared-off" from sdn in particular because of the bullying and harassment on the site (in addition to the loads of misinformation present).

But thank you for the ad-hominems. I have seen enough real "unpleasant truths" in my lifetime to know that medical school admissions is a pleasant park-stroll on a sunny Saturday next to them.

My point is clear - I've seen how this toxic culture produces toxic physicians; bullying people into action only accrues you individuals who score quite high in all 3 Dark Triad personality traits in one cohort, and pathologically low (i.e., severe imposter syndrome) on the other. Neither of these groups tend to perform particularly well clinically, and the former group tends to fake and manipulate data in research for personal gains, leading to the massive data reproducibility problem in translational medicine we see today.

Motivating people through constructive criticism and positive reinforcement is much better correlated with significant clinical outcomes, and properly acquired behaviors, than positive punishment. It also leads to physicians with higher satisfaction, and quality of life measures.

We all highly value the advice and wisdom you are able to provide the community (that goes without saying). But there are ways you can give the same advice without demeaning people - and if you really wanted to see people take that advice, it wouldn't hurt to try avoiding saying that they would be more to medicine if they were dead.

I strongly suggest that you avoid going to med school in NYC, or doing residency there, as my people, who use the term "F you" as a greeting, will simply eat you alive.

And as I have a low tolerance for snowflakery, I'm going to model good SDN behavior and apply the Ignore function. You'll feel some slight pressure between the eyes.

 

[pierty]

Hey, that's alright. I just wanted to present an alternative approach to our culture that, I think, would help us all out (and our progress as a field) in the long run; I'm not sure why that is being conflated with "snowflakery," but to each their own. I can take bullying quite well; does that make me a better physician? Or will my clinical and research outcomes define my success, and will not having to deal with a difficult culture just give me more energy, time, and focus to work on those things? It's just my opinion - i respect yours.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I strongly suggest that you avoid going to med school in NYC, or doing residency there, as my people, who use the term "F you" as a greeting, will simply eat you alive.

I think @pierty will be fine in NYC. My spouse did residency in NYC community hospital and I don't think anyone greeted her "F you" and the meanest people were nurses not patients or patient families.

 

[Maimonides1]

I am late to this thread, but I noticed that someone else here raised the question of why people are "scared-off" from sdn.

When one of the most knowledgeable people on the site is this callous and disrespectful, it is absolutely clear why... and this is nothing to say about all the unknowledgeable, elitist, neurotic pre-meds that have no business giving advice, and continuously make the field a worse place to train and deliver care; just look at the derogatory, "stupid" designation one of them delivered to the majority of applicants in this very thread.

Calling people "dumb," and saying that they only belong at medical school if they are dead is a great way to demotivate people out of medicine, instead of identifying where they can improve to get into it. It's also, subsequently, an incredible way to attract terrible physicians to the field that are the least bit concerned with whether their patients live or die, but will fight tooth-and-nail to ensure they have enough time to fly to Cabo twice a year.

I love this field, with every fiber of my being, because of its practice. But I can't stand the culture (*in some circles, including sdn).

Let's change it.

You want the truth..?
You can’t handle the truth..!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

You want the truth..?
You can’t handle the truth..!!

Sounds more like

 

[Means]

I am scared to live in a world where people think the slightest criticism or realty checks on SDN are considered toxic and bullying.

 

[pierty]

I am scared to live in a world where people think the slightest criticism or realty checks on SDN are considered toxic and bullying.

"The slightest criticism or reality check"? He literally said people are better off dead. That is neither of those things.

The entire reason I posted was to indicate that - yes, reality checks/criticisms are great!... When that is the actual, intended purpose.

It's curious... you all seem so outraged and "fearful" of the banal suggestion that we could show a shred of more civility toward each other. Goro mentioned projection, and snowflakery in the same breath... I see the connection.

 

[gyngyn]

Let's stay on topic please.