The hardest part of psychiatry?

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redbandit

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what can be the hardest part of psychiatry / psychiatric residency? I've come to accept my residency in psychiatry and I just want to prepare for it in the best way I can. I just want to k ow what I can expect? I have legitimately been freaking out about psychiatry and second guessing myself, but I think I should embrace my role, and this year, many did not match into psychiatry.
 
Probably the hardest part of all medicine: sometimes you will be sitting there across from someone who is really suffering quite a lot, and is doing their best and adhering to everything you have suggested they try, and knowing that there is nothing you can do to make things better.
 
Psychotherapy is hard. It can be draining. I don't know how psychologists do that for 8 hours every day. I definitely need some "med management" type visits thrown it.

The other difficulty is working with some very difficult patients with personality disorders.
Sometimes I get frustrated when I know there's not quick/easy fix, like in some other areas of medicine.
 
Probably the hardest part of all medicine: sometimes you will be sitting there across from someone who is really suffering quite a lot, and is doing their best and adhering to everything you have suggested they try, and knowing that there is nothing you can do to make things better.
...and they demand that you do something anyway.
 
I should add: "the alchemy patient"

Just finished talking to one of these. The patient who comes in every visit wanting the overly complicated regimen "adjusted". "well, I had some anxiety lately, so can we increase x" "I get [side effect] when I increase y beyond a certain point, so should I decrease y and increase z?"

It's like they're asking Professor Snape to concoct a potion to manage their ever changing placebo/nocebo effects.
 
I should add: "the alchemy patient"

Just finished talking to one of these. The patient who comes in every visit wanting the overly complicated regimen "adjusted". "well, I had some anxiety lately, so can we increase x" "I get [side effect] when I increase y beyond a certain point, so should I decrease y and increase z?"

It's like they're asking Professor Snape to concoct a potion to manage their ever changing placebo/nocebo effects.

I'm totally fine with this if they are decently functioning, although that would clearly be the minority of alchemy patients. When they start asking for benzo's/stims to answer everything is when the real frustration sets in. "Doc it's the only thing that's worked for me!"
 
I should add: "the alchemy patient"

Just finished talking to one of these. The patient who comes in every visit wanting the overly complicated regimen "adjusted". "well, I had some anxiety lately, so can we increase x" "I get [side effect] when I increase y beyond a certain point, so should I decrease y and increase z?"

It's like they're asking Professor Snape to concoct a potion to manage their ever changing placebo/nocebo effects.

Rarely do I see these, but despite being on benzos and usual SSRI/SNRI medications, anxiety is still out of control and won't engage in psychotherapy.
 
I should add: "the alchemy patient"

Just finished talking to one of these. The patient who comes in every visit wanting the overly complicated regimen "adjusted". "well, I had some anxiety lately, so can we increase x" "I get [side effect] when I increase y beyond a certain point, so should I decrease y and increase z?"

It's like they're asking Professor Snape to concoct a potion to manage their ever changing placebo/nocebo effects.
Isn't these our bread and butter patients, though? I know I certainly feel that way sometimes.
 
I'm totally fine with this if they are decently functioning, although that would clearly be the minority of alchemy patients. When they start asking for benzo's/stims to answer everything is when the real frustration sets in. "Doc it's the only thing that's worked for me!"
Rarely do I see these, but despite being on benzos and usual SSRI/SNRI medications, anxiety is still out of control and won't engage in psychotherapy.

Honestly they're all subclasses of the great problem of patients who expect their mental health treatment to be a passive process.
 
Rarely do I see these, but despite being on benzos and usual SSRI/SNRI medications, anxiety is still out of control and won't engage in psychotherapy.
Again I feel like that's my bread and butter. I guess a change of scenery after residency will do me some good (not to mention the pay bump).
 
I should add: "the alchemy patient"

Just finished talking to one of these. The patient who comes in every visit wanting the overly complicated regimen "adjusted". "well, I had some anxiety lately, so can we increase x" "I get [side effect] when I increase y beyond a certain point, so should I decrease y and increase z?"

It's like they're asking Professor Snape to concoct a potion to manage their ever changing placebo/nocebo effects.

You mean the typical VA MHC patient?
 
The hardest thing for me in residency was sleep deprivation from 30 hour call shifts every 3rd day during PGY 1.

The hardest thing for me now is trying to manage the never ending stream of difficult patients mentioned by others here, one after another, with limited time and a mountain of paperwork to complete. The time pressure while trying to maintain quality care is what is getting to me now. I know I'm good at what I do, I just need less patients so I can be effective and avoid burn out.
 
The hardest thing for me in residency was sleep deprivation from 30 hour call shifts every 3rd day during PGY 1.

The hardest thing for me now is trying to manage the never ending stream of difficult patients mentioned by others here, one after another, with limited time and a mountain of paperwork to complete. The time pressure while trying to maintain quality care is what is getting to me now. I know I'm good at what I do, I just need less patients so I can be effective and avoid burn out.
And make the same money because you're providing a quality service.
 
The hardest part of psychiatry residency for me has been interacting with so much hostility. As many have mentioned on SDN, all physicians encounter angry patients. However, emergency and inpatient psychiatry probably have the highest concentration of these kinds of interactions in all of medicine. On top of that the psychiatrist is expected to demonstrate greater equanimity than other physicians in these kinds of situations. Psychiatry, therefore, is uniquely demanding in matters of self-awareness and emotional self-control. Most of us were drawn to this field, in part, because we have this skill set to begin with. But once you get to the 22nd hour of your 24-hr shift, you've been verbally de-escalating patients for much of the day, and your next ED consult just threw something at one of your favorite nurses... yeah, it gets hard.
 
As a psychiatrist who spends 70% of my time doing therapy, I have to agree. It's simultaneously the hardest and most enjoyable area of the field. For me.

My psychiatry rotation had a decent bit of psychodynamic psychotherapy involved. I ****ing LOVED it, but honestly it was extremely hard. It was ridiculously challenging mentally and after a brief conversation with a patient, I would feel absolutely emotionally drained. I'm talking, just the basics of the basics type of stuff from observing how he (attending) did it and trying to do it on my own. My attending told me he just got used to it after a while, but holy crap.

Psychodynamic Psychotherapy + Medication is one of the reasons I love and want to do psychiatry. That's normal right?
 
The hardest part of psychiatry residency for me has been interacting with so much hostility. As many have mentioned on SDN, all physicians encounter angry patients. However, emergency and inpatient psychiatry probably have the highest concentration of these kinds of interactions in all of medicine. On top of that the psychiatrist is expected to demonstrate greater equanimity than other physicians in these kinds of situations. Psychiatry, therefore, is uniquely demanding in matters of self-awareness and emotional self-control. Most of us were drawn to this field, in part, because we have this skill set to begin with. But once you get to the 22nd hour of your 24-hr shift, you've been verbally de-escalating patients for much of the day, and your next ED consult just threw something at one of your favorite nurses... yeah, it gets hard.
That's what drew me to psychiatry as well. I feel as though I'm calm person on the outside, and can handle myself in stressful situations (patients screaming , agitated, etc). But on the inside, I become tachy. I wanted to know any skills / suggestions to cope with something like this. With exposure, will I get used to something like this? That is literally my biggest fear with going into psych. And, I'm also terribly afraid I will bring it home with me and displace it to my friends and family.
 
That's what drew me to psychiatry as well. I feel as though I'm calm person on the outside, and can handle myself in stressful situations (patients screaming , agitated, etc). But on the inside, I become tachy. I wanted to know any skills / suggestions to cope with something like this. With exposure, will I get used to something like this? That is literally my biggest fear with going into psych. And, I'm also terribly afraid I will bring it home with me and displace it to my friends and family.

If you were stranded on a desert island and could only pick one specific psychotherapy technique, overwhelmingly you should pick exposure. You need it to be mindful exposure of course, but it's almost hard to not mature over the course of a residency unless you have some truly malignant personality defenses/disorder.
 
If you were stranded on a desert island and could only pick one specific psychotherapy technique, overwhelmingly you should pick exposure. You need it to be mindful exposure of course, but it's almost hard to not mature over the course of a residency unless you have some truly malignant personality defenses/disorder.
I am a complete novice to psych / psychotherapy. I feel like I know nothing. Should I be resssured that my program will teach me all I need to know? My incoming class is small, so I'm assuming there will be lots of closely monitored training.
 
I've seen posts on SDN saying that psychotherapy being phased out? I have no idea where these people's sources are from, but does anybody have any input on that? If you're not doing psychotherapy that just means you'll be listening to new patients for 30 minutes and doing psych med refills for outpatient stuff right?
 
I've seen posts on SDN saying that psychotherapy being phased out? I have no idea where these people's sources are from, but does anybody have any input on that? If you're not doing psychotherapy that just means you'll be listening to new patients for 30 minutes and doing psych med refills for outpatient stuff right?

Depends on the setting. Here in the VA, I've never met a psychiatrist who does therapy. Other settings may have more leeway outside of medication management.
 
Depends on the setting. Here in the VA, I've never met a psychiatrist who does therapy. Other settings may have more leeway outside of medication management.

Well at least with the 30 min slots, there's occasionally room to put some of your therapy skills into practice if needed (that 90833 code tho). I've got more than a few patients who are medmon in name only.
 
Well at least with the 30 min slots, there's occasionally room to put some of your therapy skills into practice if needed (that 90833 code tho). I've got more than a few patients who are medmon in name only.

Well yeah, I'm sure some brief MI or other techniques could be squeezed in, but it'd be hard to do any formal therapy in the time frames that are generally given in many settings (e.g., 30 minutes every few months).
 
I would say the biggest downside of psychiatry is having to fight endless encroachment battles -- psychologist prescribing, NP independent practice, Dr. NPs. The latter are also downsides of primary care, and I'm sure are going to downsides of all of medicine in a few years. For work, I don't know -- it depends -- I'd probably say something each week. Right now I've got a case load with a higher amount of things I don't like dealing with (agitation/behavioral issues with cognitive impairment). My admits today were Cluster B addicts, and yay, I feel at home again!

But big themes that can suck -- the idea that we can treat things with medicine that we can treat with medicine, the refractory nature of a lot of the things we treat, not being able to do anything about social issues that impede treatment (homelessness, can't get good care, chronic economic anxiety).
 
That's what drew me to psychiatry as well. I feel as though I'm calm person on the outside, and can handle myself in stressful situations (patients screaming , agitated, etc). But on the inside, I become tachy. I wanted to know any skills / suggestions to cope with something like this. With exposure, will I get used to something like this? That is literally my biggest fear with going into psych. And, I'm also terribly afraid I will bring it home with me and displace it to my friends and family.

A few thoughts on this:
1. One of the other residents in my program never runs, walks briskly, or takes the stairs to a behavioral code. He does this to keep his heart rate as low as possible before entering the room with a hostile patient. He reasons that since he will not be putting hands on the patient (other staff does that), he does not need to arrive there first and he wants to be as calm as possible when he gets there.
2. Regardless of where you work, there will be a core group of hostile patients who frequently visit the ED and inpatient unit. Over time, you will learn who is potentially violent and who is just a yeller. This takes away a bit of the scary uncertainty that can go along with hostility. Spoiler alert: the vast majority are just yellers.
3. Even with some of the most hostile patients you can develop some level of rapport once they have seen you enough and you have demonstrated reliability and predictability:
You: John, dude, look! You know how I work. I want to help you out, but I can't have you throwing stuff at people.
Patient: Well, she came in here and started giving me a bunch of attitude like she's better than me!
You: I hear you, John. I got it. But we've been through this before together and you know this makes it hard for us to work with you.
Patient: I know. Sorry doc, she just really got to me...
You: Okay, talk to me. What's going on? What happened?
It doesn't work every time, but these verbal de-escalations become possible when you and a patient get to know each other well.
4. At our program we always have two residents on at night. When we get to a lull, we'll often vent to each other over particularly difficult patient interactions.
5. Your heart going tacky is your body's way of trying to help. There's no shame in that. I may be dating myself here, but it reminds me of Clippy, who was an animated feature for Microsoft Office back in the 1990s (you can Google it if you're unfamiliar). Everybody hated Clippy. He would always pop up and try to be helpful, but he was usually just a total nuisance. Your sympathetic nervous system can be a little bit like Clippy. Hey, it looks like you're running from a wild animal. I can help by automatically making you sweaty, anxious, and tachycardic! A certain amount of this is unavoidable. I'm a six-foot-tall man, but even when a five-foot-tall woman starts to scream at me my heart will pound and I'll feel the nervousness in my throat. I just remind myself that I'm not being chased by a wild animal (I am not trying to write a letter, Clippy! Go away!).

Welcome to psychiatry, by the way. We're thrilled to have you!
 
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A few thoughts on this:
1. One of the other residents in my program never runs, walks briskly, or takes the stairs to a behavioral code. He does this to keep his heart rate as low as possible before entering the room with a hostile patient. He reasons that since he will not be putting hands on the patient (other staff does that), he does not need to arrive there first and he wants to be as calm as possible when he gets there.
2. Regardless of where you work, there will be a core group of hostile patients who frequently visit the ED and inpatient unit. Over time, you will learn who is potentially violent and who is just a yeller. This takes away a bit of the scary uncertainty that can go along with hostility. Spoiler alert: the vast majority are just yellers.
3. Even with some of the most hostile patients you can develop some level of rapport once they have seen you enough and you have demonstrated reliability and predictability:
You: John, dude, look! You know how I work. I want to help you out, but I can't have you throwing stuff at people.
Patient: Well, she came in here and started giving me a bunch of attitude like she's better than me!
You: I hear you, John. I got it. But we've been through this before together and you know this makes it hard for us to work with you.
Patient: I know. Sorry doc, she just really got to me...
You: Okay, talk to me. What's going on? What happened?
It doesn't work every time, but these verbal de-escalations become possible when you and a patient get to know each other well.
4. At our program we always have two residents on at night. When we get to a lull, we'll often vent to each other over particularly difficult patient interactions.
5. Your heart going tacky is your body's way of trying to help. There's no shame in that. I may be dating myself here, but it reminds me of Clippy, who was an animated feature for Microsoft Office back in the 1990s (you can Google it if you're unfamiliar). Everybody hated Clippy. He would always pop up and try to be helpful, but he was usually just a total nuisance. You're sympathetic nervous system can be a little bit like Clippy. Hey, it looks like you're running from a wild animal. I can help by automatically making you sweaty, anxious, and tachycardic! A certain amount of this is unavoidable. I'm a six-foot-tall man, but even when a five-foot-tall woman starts to scream at me my heart will pound and I'll feel the nervousness in my throat. I just remind myself that I'm not being chased by a wild animal (I am not trying to write a letter, Clippy! Go away!).

Welcome to psychiatry, by the way. We're thrilled to have you!
Thank you so much for the insight. It helps knowing that the feelings I have are normal. I hope through experience, I'll learn to better cope with some of the more difficult situations, and I'm sure that'll help with both my professional, and personal life.
 
I should add: "the alchemy patient"

Just finished talking to one of these. The patient who comes in every visit wanting the overly complicated regimen "adjusted". "well, I had some anxiety lately, so can we increase x" "I get [side effect] when I increase y beyond a certain point, so should I decrease y and increase z?"

It's like they're asking Professor Snape to concoct a potion to manage their ever changing placebo/nocebo effects.

...sort of a condescending view. Not sure if this is supposed to be a knock on patients imagining side effects or what. side effects are real. there may not be solid evidence based changes that you can make to their med combo, but that doesn't mean that changing things around will not help. it may or it may not. If they've run out of options and understand there's risks involved with changing their meds around, they're within their right to ask for a potential adjustment. They can't do it themselves. Otherwise many probably would prefer to rather than taking up your time , esp when you don't seem to enjoy doing it. On another note, I'd be happy that people need me for something. There's people in many non-medical fields who would die to find clients to make a living.
 
...sort of a condescending view. Not sure if this is supposed to be a knock on patients imagining side effects or what. side effects are real. there may not be solid evidence based changes that you can make to their med combo, but that doesn't mean that changing things around will not help. it may or it may not. If they've run out of options and understand there's risks involved with changing their meds around, they're within their right to ask for a potential adjustment. They can't do it themselves. Otherwise many probably would prefer to rather than taking up your time , esp when you don't seem to enjoy doing it. On another note, I'd be happy that people need me for something. There's people in many non-medical fields who would die to find clients to make a living.

And this is exactly how this type of patient ends up on a needlessly complicated and nonsensical regimen that's constantly being adjusted and getting them nowhere.


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I've seen posts on SDN saying that psychotherapy being phased out? I have no idea where these people's sources are from, but does anybody have any input on that? If you're not doing psychotherapy that just means you'll be listening to new patients for 30 minutes and doing psych med refills for outpatient stuff right?
Just a patient, but in NYC, if you want to do therapy all day long in a reasonably nice private office with basically no overhead other than a room, some furniture and a laptop, you definitely can do that. My psychiatrist does this, he''ll start as early as 7 am (morning person) and go as late as 8 pm in order to be accommodating, and even so it's hard to find an open slot if one of us needs to reschedule, although he always makes it work. He also teaches and does other things, but based on his availability, or lack thereof, he's had no trouble filling his day with as many patients as he wants to have, all cash only.
 
Probably the hardest part of all medicine: sometimes you will be sitting there across from someone who is really suffering quite a lot, and is doing their best and adhering to everything you have suggested they try, and knowing that there is nothing you can do to make things better.

This is a big concern for me, I want to do psych but I actually want to help people. How frustrating is it when you are treating someone and they don't improve no matter what you try? I would feel useless in that situation. I've been getting treated for depression for about 7 almost 8 years now, and if actual psych practice is anything like my experience with getting drug after drug thrown at me with no real affect, I wouldn't have interest in that.
 
Just a patient, but in NYC, if you want to do therapy all day long in a reasonably nice private office with basically no overhead other than a room, some furniture and a laptop, you definitely can do that. My psychiatrist does this, he''ll start as early as 7 am (morning person) and go as late as 8 pm in order to be accommodating, and even so it's hard to find an open slot if one of us needs to reschedule, although he always makes it work. He also teaches and does other things, but based on his availability, or lack thereof, he's had no trouble filling his day with as many patients as he wants to have, all cash only.
What are his rates and how long are his appointments?
 
This is a big concern for me, I want to do psych but I actually want to help people. How frustrating is it when you are treating someone and they don't improve no matter what you try? I would feel useless in that situation. I've been getting treated for depression for about 7 almost 8 years now, and if actual psych practice is anything like my experience with getting drug after drug thrown at me with no real affect, I wouldn't have interest in that.

With regard to the first part of your post, that is true to some extent with several other branches of medicine as well. With regard to the second part, you can always decide how you want to practice.
 
Endless personalities. This becomes very apparent when systems issues come into play.
 
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