The Impact and Future of Medical School Rankings

[lkthlttr]

I don't know if a link for this has already been discussed on the forums, but I just came across it today and thought it was a thought provoking and insightful discussion of the US News rankings of medical schools between the publishers of said rankings and several Deans of the top medical schools in the country. They touch upon several of the subjects which are so often discussed on these boards including medical school prestige, the importance of the MCAT, variability of GPA between different colleges and different majors, research, diversity, among many other topics. It is quite long, the pdf is 66 pages, but a lot of good info if you haven't seen it yet.

http://static.usnews.com/documents/education/transcript-impact-future-medical-rankings.pdf

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[ppfizenm]

#waits for others to comment so doesn't have to read it himself

 

[Chrome19]

I skimmed the piece. I see Alpern talking about the MCAT as a measure of scientific aptitude. But what if you have two students--student A( 15 VR, 10 PS, 10 BS for a 35) and student B (8 VR, 12 BS, 13 PS for a 33). Which of the two has the better scientific aptitude?

The MCAT is a stupid test, but I understand it's the best thing we have.

 

[lkthlttr]

Ok, I'll start the discussion with a topic that I know gets premeds going:

"I would rather take an engineering major from MIT with a 3.0 grade point average than someone who went to an academically noncompetitive school and, you know, majored basket weaving"

Robert N. Golden, M.D., Dean, University Of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health

 

[lkthlttr]

In regards to the common question of how one segregates the med schools into tiers, the Editor of the US News report, Brian Kelly, has this to say:

"I mean, what you – what you see in a lot of these rankings is that, you know, you do have that kind of consensus at a certain level. It might be the top – like in law schools it's about the top 14. There's a pretty, pretty wide consensus about top 14, and then you see a big drop-off after that, where the voting in effect becomes more scrambled. So in med schools, I don't know where that exact line is. We – (inaudible) – it‟s about 10."

 

[lkthlttr]

In regards to the US News rating's reliance on average MCAT scores for distinguishing between medical schoos, Robert Alpern, Dean at Yale University School of Medicine says:

"So let me just speak in defense of the MCAT as a factor because MCATs always get bashed. And there's a lot of bad things about using the MCAT as a ranking. But when you look at the alternatives, they're all much worse. And that's why I actually was happy to see that the MCAT is 65 percent of your student selectivity. For the reasons just mentioned, the GPA I think is worse because you're comparing apples and oranges because you don't know the setting in which that GPA was obtained. The acceptance rate, it all depends who you're making offers to. I can get a really high acceptance rate by just lowering who I make offers to. And so I'm glad that that's weighted very little. So I would say as bad as the MCAT is, it's far superior to the other things."

 

[lkthlttr]

In taking the US News to task over the absurdity of including student to faculty ratio in their medical school rankings, Lee Goldman, Dean of the Faculties of Health Sciences and Medicine, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons says: "If you look in medical schools, most of us have more than one faculty person per student. And there's no evidence that three faculty per student is better than two faculty per student or that gradations above one make any difference whatsoever. So I would argue that that's a meaningless and irrelevant measure for medical schools, although perhaps in some of the other rankings, it may have some relevance."

 

[SpecterGT260]

I skimmed the piece. I see Alpern talking about the MCAT as a measure of scientific aptitude. But what if you have two students--student A( 15 VR, 10 PS, 10 BS for a 35) and student B (8 VR, 12 BS, 13 PS for a 33). Which of the two has the better scientific aptitude?

The MCAT is a stupid test, but I understand it's the best thing we have.

any decent school will give it a full breakdown. the school i go to has full statistical breakdowns for all 3 components vs other applicants and matriculents in the admissions file. verbal was my weakest area, which according to their graph is unusual for most applicants who use verbal to beef up the score. I ended up pretty far behind the curve in verbal and well ahead in both phys and bio. this had an impact on my acceptance

 

[Whatyousay]

Ok, I'll start the discussion with a topic that I know gets premeds going:

"I would rather take an engineering major from MIT with a 3.0 grade point average than someone who went to an academically noncompetitive school and, you know, majored basket weaving"

Robert N. Golden, M.D., Dean, University Of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health

And yet the 3.0 from MIT still gets screened out while the 4.0 basket-weaving major gets an interview...

 

[aSagacious]

Better idea, here's the video instead. You're welcome.

 

[CodeBlu]

Better idea, here's the video instead. You're welcome.

Thanks.

Ps. Saggy, your new picture is mildly disturbing.

 

[aSagacious]

Ps. Saggy, your new picture is mildly disturbing.

Glad you like it.

 

[Sephiroth]

Better idea, here's the video instead. You're welcome.

Wow, 66 pages of transcript for 10 minutes of talking? Thanks, this makes it waaay easier. Now I'll actually go through the whole thing.

 

[aSagacious]

Wow, 66 pages of transcript for 10 minutes of talking? Thanks, this makes it waaay easier. Now I'll actually go through the whole thing.

There are 2 vids, the first is 10 minutes, the second is 30ish.

 

[octupus]

And yet the 3.0 from MIT still gets screened out while the 4.0 basket-weaving major gets an interview...

curses! underwater-basket-weaving, I knew I should have picked you!

I think comparing GPA across different schools is a near-impossible task. There are so many factors involved, like the professor's expectations of students, number of students/class, the quality of students in a class you are 'competing' against, grade inflation, the list goes on.

"DR. GRANDE: Yeah, I mean, there‟s a very, very strong correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. And so the thing is is that we could be completely incompetent. We could teach the students absolutely nothing but if you get really smart students, they‟re going to do well. So that is not a very good measure."

then I must ask... why do we have standardized test if smart students are going to do well regardless? how else would we measure student's aptitude?

 

[ppfizenm]

curses! underwater-basket-weaving, I knew I should have picked you!

I think comparing GPA across different schools is a near-impossible task. There are so many factors involved, like the professor's expectations of students, number of students/class, the quality of students in a class you are 'competing' against, grade inflation, the list goes on.

"DR. GRANDE: Yeah, I mean, there‟s a very, very strong correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. And so the thing is is that we could be completely incompetent. We could teach the students absolutely nothing but if you get really smart students, they‟re going to do well. So that is not a very good measure."

then I must ask... why do we have standardized test if smart students are going to do well regardless? how else would we measure student's aptitude?

I usually find humor a good measure of intelligence. Stand up comedy in front of an admissions panel perhaps?

The MCAT at the moment appears to be the best measure of something that is pretty abstract. Even the professionals agree that it isn't great however there is nothing else. College GPA is ok but previously pointed out it isn't uniform between schools. It isn't even uniform between various majors. At my undergrad there were years where the science professors wouldn't give out any A's.Then you had the econ professors for example who would always give them out.

We don't use just one measure though. We have admissions personal pouring over our files to take a collective measurement of all aspects then give a judgement. I think this process becomes marred however with thousands of extraneous applications.

Maybe the AAMC should institute, instead of the MCAT, a uniform semester of a few classes with exams taught one summer. Hopeful applicants can take the course. If they do well, they get a measure of their success for schools to evaluate; if they do poorly they lose the ability to apply that year.

 

[raltima07]

I usually find humor a good measure of intelligence. Stand up comedy in front of an admissions panel perhaps?

No. Just No. STOP IT

 

[ppfizenm]

No. Just No. STOP IT

lmao. like we already don't have enough to be worried about.

 

[kpcrew]

Glad you like it.

Is it a baby's foot or a huge rabbit?

 

[tantacles]

I usually find humor a good measure of intelligence. Stand up comedy in front of an admissions panel perhaps?

What is the deal with medical school?

 

[lkthlttr]

There are 2 vids, the first is 10 minutes, the second is 30ish.

The videos still only go to page 20, but ya they are a little easier to play in the background while you have your morning coffee.

 

[aSagacious]

Is it a baby's foot or a huge rabbit?

 

[ppfizenm]

What is the deal with medical school?

Or you could go the daniel tosh way by getting naked and making fun of asians

 

[tantacles]

Omg so cuuuuuuuuute. SQUEEE.

 

[tantacles]

Or you could go the daniel tosh way by getting naked and making fun of asians

Or Russell Peters and make fun of Indians and latinos.

Or Kathy Griffin and just talk **** about the medical school application process, making fun of every applicant and admissions official we don't like, and then give the middle finger to every school that rejects us. This one sounds like the best idea.

 

[CalDM09]

I usually find humor a good measure of intelligence. Stand up comedy in front of an admissions panel perhaps?

[youtube]-NjDgwGQtZw[/youtube]
45T

 

[drizzt3117]

And yet the 3.0 from MIT still gets screened out while the 4.0 basket-weaving major gets an interview...

I think adcoms are pretty good at teasing out gems in the rough, at least at Uw.

 

[gdfernan]

Or you could go the daniel tosh way by getting naked and making fun of asians

Or Russell Peters and make fun of Indians and latinos.

Why is it that soem people consider it acceptable to make fun of Asians. Are they the minority to be 'dumped upon'

 

[BHaus9]

Or Russell Peters and make fun of Indians and latinos.

Or Kathy Griffin and just talk **** about the medical school application process, making fun of every applicant and admissions official we don't like, and then give the middle finger to every school that rejects us. This one sounds like the best idea.

So really, nothing has to change?

 

[ppfizenm]

Why is it that soem people consider it acceptable to make fun of Asians. Are they the minority to be 'dumped upon'

well in fairness he makes fun of pretty much everyone. But there is funny making fun of and mean making fun of. I think he skirts the line but generally keeps it in the realm of homur as opposed to attacking.

 

[kpcrew]

pshaw the colossal beast depicted in that photograph is most certainly a hare my good man.

 

[theseeker4]

It's got big pointy.... It can leap about.... LOOK AT THE BONES!

 

[tantacles]

Why is it that soem people consider it acceptable to make fun of Asians. Are they the minority to be 'dumped upon'

Could be because he is himself south Asian. And notably, latinos are not Asian.

So really, nothing has to change?

Change should be opposed at all costs, naturally. Everything should stay exactly the same. Except my admissions status. That should change.