the important of APA internship

[stdyingpsych]

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The importance* of an APA internship.

I am currently in the process of applying to psy.d programs this fall. I was wondering what is the important of obtaining a APA internship. If I am aiming towards of career concentrating most of my time in private practice, how important is an APA internship? Or if I decide to split my time working in a hospital setting or drug rehab center, or teach at an community college, is an APA an absolute must? Lastly, some of the programs I am applying to have low APA acceptance rates for their students. ( one school I am applying to has a 25% acceptance rate of their students for APA internships) I was wondering if this is reflection the prestige of the school for the low acceptance rate. If I end up going to one of this low acceptance APA rate schools, and I get a high gpa and good letters of rec. would that boost my chance of obtaining an APA internship coming from such a school. By the way, all schools I am applying to are in California, and I intend to work in Cali after graduate if that makes any difference. Thanks for your time!

 

[roubs]

There are a lot of other threads that answer your question, you'd benefit from doing a search.

 

[2012PhD]

in a nutshell, apa internship is becoming increasingly crucial for many post-docs and entry level positions. It is also a requirement to work at any VA hospital or military setting.

use the search as stated above. There are countless threads on the importance of APA internships and also on the drawbacks of professional school programs in psychology, particularly in CA (e.g. argosy etc). Would you go to a graduate program that has a 25% employment rate?

 

[stdyingpsych]

Surprisingly there were no post which answers the questions I am seeking. Most of the post on APA internship basically bashes professional schools and their low APA internship rate. I don't want to get into that issue. Basically I was wondering if I just want to do private practice, is an APA internship necessary? I might also want to work in a drug rehab setting so is an APA internship necessary for that? I don't intend to work in a hospital or the VA.

 

[ehh2109]

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[Ollie123]

Will you need one to open a private practice? Nope, at least not right now. If you ever move, it could make things more difficult as different states have different requirements.

On the other hand, the job market is competitive right now, so any job where you are applying (basically, anything but your own private practice) you would likely have at least one mark against you, and at the better jobs that might be enough. Up to you whether or not that is worth the risk.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Basically I was wondering if I just want to do private practice, is an APA internship necessary? I might also want to work in a drug rehab setting so is an APA internship necessary for that? I don't intend to work in a hospital or the VA.

An APA-acred. internship is not required to be licensed in California, nor is it required to open a private practice. However, anything less than an APA-acred. internship will put you at a competitive disadvantage, which can be incredibly detrimental in a market that is already saturated with competition.

Whether or not an APA acred. internship is required to work in substance abuse treatment is highly dependant on the setting. Healthcare systems all have their own requirements, as do private/niche treatment centers. Given the plethora of psychologists in CA who do not pursue APA-acred. internships, minimum requirements for jobs may just list "regional acred." for programs and internship, but that doesn't mean those are the people who actually get the jobs.

People still find jobs, but many are the kind of jobs you don't want. The "Looking for a psychologist/social worker/marriage & family counselor/mental health counselor" job that pays barely a mid-level wage, and often don't include insurance coverage or any kind of benefits you'd expect at a white collar job. They are often "churn" jobs where they burn through providers who are desperate for a job. Some are straight contract jobs with no benefits and no guarantee that you'll have a job next week. Other are jobs where you have no chance for advancement and your skillset is not differentiated from other professionals who spend a fraction of the time you did in training. This isn't a knock against non-doctoral providers, but instead a comment on the marginalization of our field.

 

[causeeffect]

How risky is it to have a non-APA internship at a VA? They will be applying for APA accreditation during the year that i'll be applying. I'd like to work in a VA in the future. Is there a chance that a VA will be rejected APA accred? If I end up there, will VAs still like me even though my internship was not APA accredited because it was at a VA?

 

[roubs]

Surprisingly there were no post which answers the questions I am seeking. Most of the post on APA internship basically bashes professional schools and their low APA internship rate. I don't want to get into that issue. Basically I was wondering if I just want to do private practice, is an APA internship necessary? I might also want to work in a drug rehab setting so is an APA internship necessary for that? I don't intend to work in a hospital or the VA.

Are the posts bashing professional schools and their low APA internship rate, or are they laying out the evidence for why it is not a good life choice to attend such a school? For the record I think most are of the opinion that Psy.D. programs that try and limit class size and exist outside of the for-profit realm are generally better programs and don't have the horrible match rates. So it isn't really an argument against the Psy.D. in general.

As others have pointed out, even for graduates from top quality programs it's rarely as if you're handed a degree and then you're recruited for / launch a private practice the next day. We don't work in a profession where it's advisable to decide "I'm going to work in these two settings and no others.", especially as a pre-doctoral applicant. Even with a great APA-accredited internship, this will hurt your job prospects. Throwing in the fact that you are also geographically restricting yourself, it's not a stretch to say that you're creating a tough road ahead.

 

[2012PhD]

Basically I was wondering if I just want to do private practice, is an APA internship necessary? I might also want to work in a drug rehab setting so is an APA internship necessary for that? I don't intend to work in a hospital or the VA.

So here is the deal stdyingpsych. Private practice requires licensure. In order to get licensed, you need an internship and post-doc that meets state requirements (APA internships fulfill licensure requirements in all 50 states). an unaccredited internship may not fulfill licensure requirements. California requires 3,000 hours of supervised training in addition to several exams and classes. If you complete an unaccredited internship, you may not be able to get the post-doctoral hours for licensure since the field is ultra competitive and many settings won't hire you without an apa internship these days. You will have to complete these hours either way and can't practice independently without them.

Another thing to consider. The majority of psychologists are not able to make a living on a psychotherapy private practice alone, plus you don't get any benefits or health insurance in your practice. Most need to supplement their income by working at hospitals, counseling centers, VA's. These account for most of the jobs of psychologists, particulalry VA hospitals. Drug rehab centers that hire psychologists in california are probably pretty rare.

Income in private practice is pretty variable in california (range of 40-80K plus depending on experience/business skills). How will you pay back that 200K in loans if you go to a professional school? We are not making anywhere near an MD salary.

 

[2012PhD]

The importance* of an APA internship.

I was wondering if this is reflection the prestige of the school for the low acceptance rate. If I end up going to one of this low acceptance APA rate schools, and I get a high gpa and good letters of rec. would that boost my chance of obtaining an APA internship coming from such a school. By the way, all schools I am applying to are in California, and I intend to work in Cali after graduate if that makes any difference. Thanks for your time!

the apa internship rate is a good reflection of the reputation and rigor of the school. There are many internship directors at good internship sites that toss out professional school applicants because they get 300 applications for 3 spots so why bother when there is a plethora of good candidates from good programs. Everyone gets a high GPA in graduate school so this won't help you. Grades are not important generally speaking.

California is the most saturated state for psychologists. Given how expensive california is, incomes for psychologists are pretty low. Clinical psychology is the type of field where you have to be geographically very flexible for internship, post-doc, jobs. Its more competitive than almost any other field out there (200 applications for 2 spots is not uncommon in our field).

 

[2012PhD]

How risky is it to have a non-APA internship at a VA? They will be applying for APA accreditation during the year that i'll be applying. I'd like to work in a VA in the future. Is there a chance that a VA will be rejected APA accred? If I end up there, will VAs still like me even though my internship was not APA accredited because it was at a VA?

even though they are applying for it, you will still be graduating from a non-accredited internship. They likely won't have the apa accred in time because it can take years. I think there are some circumstances where you can still get exempt from the VA requirement if your internship was at a VA hospital, however, you will likely be competing with many people who completed apa internships for VA jobs. You will also have to justify your internship with the licensing board since it is not accredited.

 

[roubs]

Planning for substandard training seems like a pretty crappy attitude to bring into the field.

👍👍 for brevity.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Some people forego doctoral licensure because they cannot gain enough hours towards the licensure. I do not recommend this approach, but some do it out of need.

Being that you have a focus on therapy and you want to do substance abuse....forego the doctorate and get a degree that lets you do therapy.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

even though they are applying for it, you will still be graduating from a non-accredited internship. They likely won't have the apa accred in time because it can take years. I think there are some circumstances where you can still get exempt from the VA requirement if your internship was at a VA hospital, however, you will likely be competing with many people who completed apa internships for VA jobs. You will also have to justify your internship with the licensing board since it is not accredited.

I believe this was addressed on one of the listservs and/or by the VA. I know that if it gets acred. before the end of your internship, then it is APA-acred. If it gets acred. after your internship, then you cannot say you attended an APA-acred site, however the VA would allow you to apply for VA positions...though I cannot say if it will be viewed as "equal" to other programs. I would check with the VA for the "official" word about your viability for future employment, but I believe they are now allowing this exemption for internship sites that are currently going through the APA-acred. process.

 

[causeeffect]

I called the DT earlier and she said that once they receive apa accreditation the previous years interns will be grandfathered in. Though it still seems risky to me since its just her word and not in writing on their brochure or anything. I agree that it's not the best route to take. I'll stick to accredited sites. thanks.

 

[aequitasveritas]

The opinions stated in this thread are caused by a bit of anxiety that if we admit the fact that APA internship has really nothing to do with how competent of a private practitioner one becomes, that it will somehow create a pedagogy that increases the choice for the non-APA route; thereby legitimizing the "alternative" training models.

I get that; hell, I'm on board with that. I think we should be lauding the best training possible. But when it comes to private practice we need to deconstruct our terms and your focus, OP.

If PP means that you provide "therapy"...well what kind? I'd say if you want to be a neuropsychologist you'd better go APA or at least APA post doc.

If you want to be an analyst (getting more rare these days...payment issues) then APA won't do you a hoot of good in general unless you happen to go to one of the rare places that actually respects and uses it. There was once a psychoanalytic psych hospital in Detroit that had an APA spot...it is gone now. Are there supervisors that use it and think that way...sure. But that's different than having a training model based on it. The frame often precludes the treatment.

If you want to do psych assessment predominantly it would help to have APA or at least some really good-extensive training.

Point being...APA matters...sometimes. But it has no bearing in general on how well you do in PP in general.

 

[2012PhD]

The opinions stated in this thread are caused by a bit of anxiety that if we admit the fact that APA internship has really nothing to do with how competent of a private practitioner one becomes, that it will somehow create a pedagogy that increases the choice for the non-APA route; thereby legitimizing the "alternative" training models.

I get that; hell, I'm on board with that. I think we should be lauding the best training possible. But when it comes to private practice we need to deconstruct our terms and your focus, OP.

If PP means that you provide "therapy"...well what kind? I'd say if you want to be a neuropsychologist you'd better go APA or at least APA post doc.

If you want to be an analyst (getting more rare these days...payment issues) then APA won't do you a hoot of good in general unless you happen to go to one of the rare places that actually respects and uses it. There was once a psychoanalytic psych hospital in Detroit that had an APA spot...it is gone now. Are there supervisors that use it and think that way...sure. But that's different than having a training model based on it. The frame often precludes the treatment.

If you want to do psych assessment predominantly it would help to have APA or at least some really good-extensive training.

Point being...APA matters...sometimes. But it has no bearing in general on how well you do in PP in general.

APA internship will probably not affect how you do in private practice overall. Totally agree. However, you will need those post-doc hours for licensure even if you are practicing psychoanalytic therapy. The majority of clinical post-docs in my area that are psychoanalytic/psychodynamic require or prefer an APA internship. I have seen many psychodynamic counseling center positions and hospital positions that require or prefer Apa program and apa internship. Many people in private practice need to work at least part-time to get benefits and health insurance so that is why it would also help greatly. If you are in private practice, how are you going to pay for health insurance? It can cost 1,000 plus per month. Most will need an additional position for this. That's where apa internship is pretty crucial.

 

[aequitasveritas]

APA internship will probably not affect how you do in private practice overall. Totally agree. However, you will need those post-doc hours for licensure even if you are practicing psychoanalytic therapy. The majority of clinical post-docs in my area that are psychoanalytic/psychodynamic require or prefer an APA internship. I have seen many psychodynamic counseling center positions and hospital positions that require or prefer Apa program and apa internship. Many people in private practice need to work at least part-time to get benefits and health insurance so that is why it would also help greatly. If you are in private practice, how are you going to pay for health insurance? It can cost 1,000 plus per month. Most will need an additional position for this. That's where apa internship is pretty crucial.

There are very few (perhaps even zero) states that require an official post-doc for licensure. You can accrue hours whenever you have a SPE contract with a licensed supervising shrink.

As far as the health insurance thing requiring a part time positions...I don't know a single (good) PP shrink who has to do that. I also think 1,000 is very high...are you saying for combined cost of person and spouse?

 

[stdyingpsych]

.

 

[2012PhD]

There are very few (perhaps even zero) states that require an official post-doc for licensure. You can accrue hours whenever you have a SPE contract with a licensed supervising shrink.

As far as the health insurance thing requiring a part time positions...I don't know a single (good) PP shrink who has to do that. I also think 1,000 is very high...are you saying for combined cost of person and spouse?

I know that is what you are doing and are successful at it. However, everyone that i know who worked under a PP psychologist to get their hours did not get enough referrals to a) make a decent living and b) to obtain the hours in a reasonable time frame. A typical PP psychologist is not getting 2 referrals per week that they can pass onto you. I worked in a very famous institute in the past, and i was lucky if i even got 1 new referall per month. The post-docs had maybe 10 patients after 1 year.

1,000 is the cost of private insurance easily for individual + spouse. In expensive cities, cost for individual can easily be 1,000, depending on the plan.

 

[stdyingpsych]

I mainly want to focus on : anxiety, depression, trauma, ptsd, relationship/family/marital issues, and psychological testing in private practice. Being that some of the schools I am applying have low APA rates, I just want to find out more about the nature of an APA internship. --> this is an reply to aequitasveritas

I know this maybe naive but could someone tell me what is the difference between an APA vs APPIC vs CPA internship. What do you get out of each of these internships and why do some people go for one over the other? From what I know so far, it seems that an APA internship is superior- obviously I want the best training posssible but I would also like to know about the other internships in case I don't match with a APA internship later on. Lastly about insurance collection. Does an APA internship on your resume have anything to do with billing an insurance company. Could someone tell me how insurance works of how/what I would need to be able to bill clients with insurance.

 

[2012PhD]

[
Could someone tell me how insurance works of how/what I would need to be able to bill clients with insurance.[/QUOTE]

APA: All internships are paid. This is considered the gold standard for training. will meet all employer requirements and licensure requirements for each state.

CAPIC and APPIC: may not meet licensure requirements in every state. Some states do require an apa internship. There is wide variability among these internships in terms of quality and training. Many are also unpaid.

APA internship will not affect your ability to use insurance. Its completely unrelated.

basically in a nutshell this is how it may affect your ability to have your private practice dream: "Without an APA internship, it will be much more difficult for you to attain a post-doc position with the kind of supervision you need to get hours towards licensure. No license=no private practice"

It seems like you want to pursue applying to programs that have low apa internship match rates and would just like information that will justify this decision. You can easily get information that will justify this if you wanted to. Why even apply to programs that will limit your employment prospects in the future?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I know this maybe naive but could someone tell me what is the difference between an APA vs APPIC vs CPA internship.

Have you done a search on the forum? This is a very common question that is talked about ad nauseam, so there is plenty of information posted on the forum.

APA = standard, no restrictions when applying to jobs. Always paid.

CPA = (Canadian version of the APA), standard in Canada, no restriction when applying to jobs in Canada. If you look for a job in the USA, you may need to provide some info about CPA-acred. The same will be true for someone with an APA acred applying to positions in Canada. Always paid.

APPIC = Not an acred, though attending an APPIC site should get you licensed. You'll be shutout from applying to jobs in the VA, certain state and federal positions, and often most competitive positions across a range of settings. Typically paid.

CAPIC = California is supporting their own Match system because of the glut of graduate students in the state. You should be able to get licensed in CA, but it is more dicey trying to get licensed in other states. Typically unpaid.

All other internship sites = A crapshoot for licensure and job seeking. Most likely it will be unpaid.

Many jobs will specify successful graduation from an APA-acred. program and APA-acred internship site. Others will specify APA-acred internship site or APPIC site. Less common is "regionally acred. internship site".

If you want a more official explanation, here is what APPIC has to say about it: http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_1_2_17.html

 

[aequitasveritas]

I mainly want to focus on : anxiety, depression, trauma, ptsd, relationship/family/marital issues, and psychological testing in private practice. Being that some of the schools I am applying have low APA rates, I just want to find out more about the nature of an APA internship. --> this is an reply to aequitasveritas

These are issues you think you may like to approach. The question is, from what orientation and in what setting do you want to treat them? The answer partially determines the nature of your program and internship.

If you are truly competitive then you won't do less poorly at getting an APA internship as the rest of us!

 

[stdyingpsych]

"Why even apply to programs that will limit your employment prospects in the future?"

Well to put it frankly, I don't have the grades to go to a funded Psy.d program. My overall gpa at a reputable university i attended was in the low 3.0. Although my gpa was from my first two years of community college was 3.7, but i dont think this community college gpa has as much weight in the admissions process. However I would still want pursue the highest degree I am able obtain.

"basically in a nutshell this is how it may affect your ability to have your private practice dream: "Without an APA internship, it will be much more difficult for you to attain a post-doc position with the kind of supervision you need to get hours towards licensure. No license=no private practice" -- This is all new to me. Can you explain what this process further. So I am assuming post-doc comes after you can completed an internship. Does this mean after you have finished your internship, you still need to do another year in as a post doc until you test for a license ?

 

[roubs]

CPA = (Canadian version of the APA), standard in Canada, no restriction when applying to jobs in Canada. If you look for a job in the USA, you may need to provide some info about CPA-acred. The same will be true for someone with an APA acred applying to positions in Canada. Always paid.

When they say CPA do they ever mean accredited by http://www.cpapsych.org/ ?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

When they say CPA do they ever mean accredited by http://www.cpapsych.org/ ?

No.

The CPA decided to make their own acred., which is unrelated to APA and CPA (Canada). People in the field generally refer to the California Psych Association's acred. as CAPIC. Jobs that allow non-APA acred. generally specify "APA/APPIC" or "regionally acred. internship."

 

[2012PhD]

Well to put it frankly, I don't have the grades to go to a funded Psy.d program. My overall gpa at a reputable university i attended was in the low 3.0. Although my gpa was from my first two years of community college was 3.7, but i dont think this community college gpa has as much weight in the admissions process. However I would still want pursue the highest degree I am able obtain.

"basically in a nutshell this is how it may affect your ability to have your private practice dream: "Without an APA internship, it will be much more difficult for you to attain a post-doc position with the kind of supervision you need to get hours towards licensure. No license=no private practice" -- This is all new to me. Can you explain what this process further. So I am assuming post-doc comes after you can completed an internship. Does this mean after you have finished your internship, you still need to do another year in as a post doc until you test for a license ?

Sure, clinical psychology PsyD typically takes 5-7 years of graduate school, this includes a 1 year internship. However, after you obtain your PsyD you will still need 3,000 hours total of supervised training before you become licensed (this will take 1-2 years depending on state), otherwise you cannot practice independently. The easiest and surest way to accrue these hours is through a clincial post-doc at a VA, hospital, counseling center setting (APA internship is important in this regard). You also have to take an exam (EPPP) and some other state requirements (california has an ethics exam and additional course requirements). It is a LONG road akin to medical school (8 years total from start to finish)

An unfunded PsyD is a huge debt burden and will cost you about 200K with living expenses. Psychologists don't make such a great income to justify this kind of debt. We are not like MD's. If you are only interested in private practice, then an MSW is a much cheaper and shorter route. You will only go to school for 2 years and can attend a state school that will keep the cost lower. You will then have to get licensed as an LCSW.

 

[roubs]

"More loans" when considering the Psy.D. is often difficult to quantify especially before starting school, so:


From http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

Loan Balance: $200,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Term: 10 years
Monthly Loan Payment: $2,301.61
Number of Payments: 120
Cumulative Payments: $276,192.62
Total Interest Paid: $76,192.62

"It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $276,193.20 to be able to afford to repay this loan."

Extended:
Loan Balance: $200,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Term: 30 years
Monthly Loan Payment: $1,303.85
Number of Payments: 360
Cumulative Payments: $469,386.44
Total Interest Paid: $269,386.44

"It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $156,462.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan."

This is what is meant by the phrase crippling debt levels.

 

[guy8720]

I ran similar numbers using the IRB calculator:

Loan Balance: $200,000
Loan Interest Rate: 6.8%
Loan Term: 30 years
Estimated Salary: $70,000

Estimated Monthly Payment: $670

(Income Based Repayment Calculator- http://www.ibrinfo.org/calculator.php)

Your point still stands that a 200k in debt is not justified by a psychologist's income, and after 30 years of payments the unpaid balance goes to the taxpayer...

However, with the IRB law being passed in 2008, students who incur more student loan debt than they will earn in a year qualify for significantly reduced payments- NOT crippling debt.

 

[2012PhD]

I ran similar numbers using the IRB calculator:

Loan Balance: $200,000
Loan Interest Rate: 6.8%
Loan Term: 30 years
Estimated Salary: $70,000

Estimated Monthly Payment: $670

(Income Based Repayment Calculator- http://www.ibrinfo.org/calculator.php)

.

Are you taking into account that some of these loans are private loans? There is a cap on federal loans so you will most likely also take out private loans from one or more companies. I know several people with 200,000 in debt, and their monthly amount comes to about 1,600 per month--no less than this. This will depend on income of course. Even paying $670 for 30 years is ridiculous---its basically your retirement income.

 

[guy8720]

When Stafford loans reach their limit, the Grad PLUS loan is offered which has no limit, and is a federal loan. It is very possible, and often the case that all of the 200k is from federal loans. If someone took out private loans then they may not qualify for IRB.

Also, for those who plan on working in a non-profit organization or another qualifying public service position, the payments only go for 10 years.

And the $670 figure is only when the salary is $70k, if it is a post-doc position that only pays $35k, the monthly payment would be $230. Hence the tittle: Income Based Repayment.

For those who choose this path, I hope they understand the long-term financial obligations that go along with it. If they know they will be making these payments for 30 years, and still feel it is the best decision for their career, then who's to say its the wrong thing to do? $230-670 a month doesn't sound all that bad to me if it means having a rewarding career.

 

[aequitasveritas]

When Stafford loans reach their limit, the Grad PLUS loan is offered which has no limit, and is a federal loan. It is very possible, and often the case that all of the 200k is from federal loans. If someone took out private loans then they may not qualify for IRB.

Also, for those who plan on working in a non-profit organization or another qualifying public service position, the payments only go for 10 years.

And the $670 figure is only when the salary is $70k, if it is a post-doc position that only pays $35k, the monthly payment would be $230. Hence the tittle: Income Based Repayment.

For those who choose this path, I hope they understand the long-term financial obligations that go along with it. If they know they will be making these payments for 30 years, and still feel it is the best decision for their career, then who's to say its the wrong thing to do? $230-670 a month doesn't sound all that bad to me if it means having a rewarding career.

Keep in mind you must qualify for an income based repayment and I think there is a max income where you no longer qualify. After you don't qualify you have no other plan to go to but the standard repayment...which usually ends up being a second mortgage.

I would look into income contingent. Also, the 10% repayment is not been in effect yet because the bill passed with the medical overhaul doesn't onset until 2014. Moreover, when republicans take the senate and likely the white house they can repeal this bill.

 

[roubs]

I would look into income contingent. Also, the 10% repayment is not been in effect yet because the bill passed with the medical overhaul doesn't onset until 2014. Moreover, when republicans take the senate and likely the white house they can repeal this bill.

Exactly. I would not count on this being around forever to save you from your $200,000 loan. I would not blame Republicans for striking IBR because some are gaming the system.(Though having the government subsidize a private industry is actually in line with non-Libertarian Repub principles--as long as Argosy can hire enough lobbyists their model might be safe)

But I'm not exactly square with the idea of an entire industry (Free-standing Psy.D. schools) are basically taking the gov't for a ride. Any student who needs loans at a Psy.D. school will qualify for IBR because they'll have a $2000 monthly payment under a 10 yr plan and be earning a salary of $40-60k. I'd be in favor of IBR for some circumstances, but not to prop up 100% of students at a school that is designed for IBR to be there to prevent their students from defaulting.

 

[2012PhD]

For those who choose this path, I hope they understand the long-term financial obligations that go along with it. If they know they will be making these payments for 30 years, and still feel it is the best decision for their career, then who's to say its the wrong thing to do? $230-670 a month doesn't sound all that bad to me if it means having a rewarding career.

Your view is very shortsighted. You are forgetting that with no apa internship (the whole point of this thread) you are locked out of many employment settings for psychologists and will have a harder time getting those 3,000 hours for licensure. No licensure = no rewarding career.

The OP is interested in attending unfunded PsyD programs with poor internship match rates. Why plan for substandard education? How can you have a rewarding career without good training (many of these programs have too many students to provide any type of mentoring)?

Since the OP would like to stay in California. An MSW from a reputable university would serve her better (UCLA, Berkeley, USC). She would incur significantly less debt, finish her degree in two years, and can always get post graduate training in psychotherapy while she is working. Employers will be much more impressed with a degree from berkeley over a profesional school they have never heard of.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Exactly. I would not count on this being around forever to save you from your $200,000 loan. I would not blame Republicans for striking IBR because some are gaming the system.(Though having the government subsidize a private industry is actually in line with non-Libertarian Repub principles--as long as Argosy can hire enough lobbyists their model might be safe)

But I'm not exactly square with the idea of an entire industry (Free-standing Psy.D. schools) are basically taking the gov't for a ride. Any student who needs loans at a Psy.D. school will qualify for IBR because they'll have a $2000 monthly payment under a 10 yr plan and be earning a salary of $40-60k. I'd be in favor of IBR for some circumstances, but not to prop up 100% of students at a school that is designed for IBR to be there to prevent their students from defaulting.

I can see the Repubs eliminating the 10 year public service forgiveness but not income based repayment per se. This plan was actually instituted under Bush not Obama. The bean counters figured out that basing repayment on income rather than loan amount will result in more money payed back due to vastly decreased risks of default. This was actually instituted for lawyers to get into public service and to make loan repayment for Ivy league lawyers (who rule our society) to get into public service like politics. Pay no mind to teh Ayn Rand rhetoric. Never expect a Republican to place principles over self-interest unless it involes screwing the working class. They are a bunch of lawyers after all.

 

[aequitasveritas]

I can see the Repubs eliminating the 10 year public service forgiveness but not income based repayment per se. This plan was actually instituted under Bush not Obama. The bean counters figured out that basing repayment on income rather than loan amount will result in more money payed back due to vastly decreased risks of default. This was actually instituted for lawyers to get into public service and to make loan repayment for Ivy league lawyers (who rule our society) to get into public service like politics. Pay no mind to teh Ayn Rand rhetoric. Never expect a Republican to place principles over self-interest unless it involes screwing the working class. They are a bunch of lawyers after all.

Yes but the Obama adm made decreased the max amount of repayment to 10% rather than 15% from the Bush adm.

The National Association of Trial Lawyers is the single largest contributor to...Democrats (not Repubs...they use oilmen Neuropsych...get it right!😉).

 

[stdyingpsych]

Your view is very shortsighted. You are forgetting that with no apa internship (the whole point of this thread) you are locked out of many employment settings for psychologists and will have a harder time getting those 3,000 hours for licensure. No licensure = no rewarding career.

The OP is interested in attending unfunded PsyD programs with poor internship match rates. Why plan for substandard education? How can you have a rewarding career without good training (many of these programs have too many students to provide any type of mentoring)?

Since the OP would like to stay in California. An MSW from a reputable university would serve her better (UCLA, Berkeley, USC). She would incur significantly less debt, finish her degree in two years, and can always get post graduate training in psychotherapy while she is working. Employers will be much more impressed with a degree from berkeley over a profesional school they have never heard of.

It's him*, but thanks for everyone's responses. The comments/posts have really made me reconsider applying to some of the low APA mate rate professional schools in Cali and now I am looking at more reputable schools outside of Cali.--Though they are still not the Rutgers/Baylors since I don't have the grades for those schools. I think the best school I have a chance to get into in Cali is the Palo Alto Stanford Consortium(any thoughts about this school) I have also been researching a lot on the MSW degree/ eventual LCSW. From what I am reading so far, it seems like LCSW professionals can be very good therapist and there are a lot of job opportunities (hospitals, PP, administration etc), but do they get enough theoretical training? Do psychologist really make that much more from psychological testing? Lastly are there any hindrances from collecting from insurance companies if your are a LCSW as opposed to a doctor of psychology?

 

[edieb]

It's him*, but thanks for everyone's responses. The comments/posts have really made me reconsider applying to some of the low APA mate rate professional schools in Cali and now I am looking at more reputable schools outside of Cali.--Though they are still not the Rutgers/Baylors since I don't have the grades for those schools. I think the best school I have a chance to get into in Cali is the Palo Alto Stanford Consortium(any thoughts about this school) I have also been researching a lot on the MSW degree/ eventual LCSW. From what I am reading so far, it seems like LCSW professionals can be very good therapist and there are a lot of job opportunities (hospitals, PP, administration etc), but do they get enough theoretical training? Do psychologist really make that much more from psychological testing? Lastly are there any hindrances from collecting from insurance companies if your are a LCSW as opposed to a doctor of psychology?

You will have no trouble collecting from insurance with a lcsw. However, you will not get a lot of theoretical training. But remember, you can do your own reading on your own time

You can make good money from psychological testing; however, in order to do so, you have to run a cookie cutter testing operation where you have a graduate student or master's level administer tests and you or them type up quickie reports using templates... This cookie cutter opeation is kind of similar to the 10 minute med checks in psychiatry. If you want to do really, really good work and type of detailed reports, you cannot produce the type of volume you need to make money.

Furthermore, I see a certain naivite in your posts, very similar to how I was when I started my PhD. I love doing therapy. I went to a very, very research oriented PhD program so I did tons of my own reading and practice for cbt outside of my program. However, just because you love something now, does NOT mean you aren't going to tire of it later. For instance, although I love therapy, I am burned out doing 7 cases/day. As with testing, when you get out of school, you realize you cannot afford to spend tons of time on each patient case; it becomes more of a volume operation.


Have you considered psychiatry? They make so much more money than PhDs/PsyDs and their market is expanding, not contracting, like it is for psychologists. WHat a lot of MD colleagues do is work from 8 am -12 pm and then maybe pick up one therapy case in the afternooon. It is a much, much better lifestyle with a for sure end result....it is definitely worth slogging from a few years of general medicine to achieve.

There is going to come a time where you want a life outside your work. Unfortunately, with the endless hurdles you have to go through to get through a psychologist, it can be very, very hard to have any type of life. With the limited income you will likely make as a psychologist, you will find it very hard to justify what you went through for the degree. I will be making $80K next year. While that may sound like a lot, when you want kids, a house, have to pay off modest student loans, et cetera, you will see that it isn't too great. And don't forget about the many, many years I spent earning my PhD in which I was, in essence, making nothing... If you are deadset on mental health as opposed to medicine, do SW. However, I would recommend psychiatry.... In my opinion, psychology is the least attractive option

 

[sydb1367]

Yes but the Obama adm made decreased the max amount of repayment to 10% rather than 15% from the Bush adm.

the IBR numbers posted above (i.e. 670 monthly based on 70k agi) are based on the current 15% cap. In addition, in order to NOT qualify for IBR, you have to make more in one year than your total loans. In other words, if you have 200k debt, then you need to have an AGI of +200k!

Posted by 2012PhD "Your view is very shortsighted. You are forgetting that with no apa internship (the whole point of this thread) you are locked out of many employment settings for psychologists and will have a harder time getting those 3,000 hours for licensure. No licensure = no rewarding career"

after completing the non-apa internship, OP would only need 1500 postdoc not 3000. And, as aequitasveritas posted, in CA at least, there are a lot less restrictions on how you get those hours, e.g. psych assistant, teaching. Given that the OP is mainly interested in PP, a psych assistantship in PP may even be a better route than a formal PD. Regardless, in CA, there are plenty of formal PDs that don't require APA, and even some that say they do, actually don't, and will take non-apa interns. I don't think it will be that much harder to get licensed with a non-apa internship in CA. While non apa internship certainly closes some employment doors, as the OP is asking about PP, this is kind of irrelevant.

nevertheless, OP, your first move should, without hesitation, be to look at funded programs with good apa match rates. no reason not to really. but if none of those are viable options, (e.g., you have geographic limitations or can't get in due to grades), then the other schools are still a reasonable choice.

**if your interest is exclusively in psychotherapy, than, as others have said, an MFT or LCSW is the more logical choice.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You can make good money from psychological testing; however, in order to do so, you have to run a cookie cutter testing operation where you have a graduate student or master's level administer tests and you or them type up quickie reports using templates... This cookie cutter opeation is kind of similar to the 10 minute med checks in psychiatry.

This is definitely a popular way to go, but it isn't the only successful model. I think it provides the easiest access and start-up, and it can offer students an opportunity to gain more experience. This can be a good route if there is a contract/pipeline of consistant referrals from a school, EAP, etc. I've seen people do cookie cutter SSDI evals, but those are only profitable if you do well on volume.

If you want to do really, really good work and type of detailed reports, you cannot produce the type of volume you need to make money.

I'd argue that doing a more in-depth assessment and report is possible, you just need to implement a slightly different business model. You can't compete on price or volume, but you can identify market needs and carve out your part. It is obviously more profitable doing cash-pay, but certain types of assessments can be profitable through insurance too. I've seen this work for LD & gifted assessment work. I've also seen it work with forensic evals, particularly if you can tie in with one or more law practices. I've started to look into the LD & gifted route more seriously, and it is very location specific.

 

[aequitasveritas]

the IBR numbers posted above (i.e. 670 monthly based on 70k agi) are based on the current 15% cap. In addition, in order to NOT qualify for IBR, you have to make more in one year than your total loans. In other words, if you have 200k debt, then you need to have an AGI of +200k!

I spoke to a direct loan servicing department yesterday and he told me that I would not qualify for IBR if I made 135k or above given my principle (which is high I might add). I don't know about the AGI needing to be above the principle, can you find a source? It would potentially be of some help to some of us beginning to pay back loans. Thanks.

 

[stdyingpsych]

You will have no trouble collecting from insurance with a lcsw. However, you will not get a lot of theoretical training. But remember, you can do your own reading on your own time

You can make good money from psychological testing; however, in order to do so, you have to run a cookie cutter testing operation where you have a graduate student or master's level administer tests and you or them type up quickie reports using templates... This cookie cutter opeation is kind of similar to the 10 minute med checks in psychiatry. If you want to do really, really good work and type of detailed reports, you cannot produce the type of volume you need to make money.

Furthermore, I see a certain naivite in your posts, very similar to how I was when I started my PhD. I love doing therapy. I went to a very, very research oriented PhD program so I did tons of my own reading and practice for cbt outside of my program. However, just because you love something now, does NOT mean you aren't going to tire of it later. For instance, although I love therapy, I am burned out doing 7 cases/day. As with testing, when you get out of school, you realize you cannot afford to spend tons of time on each patient case; it becomes more of a volume operation.


Have you considered psychiatry? They make so much more money than PhDs/PsyDs and their market is expanding, not contracting, like it is for psychologists. WHat a lot of MD colleagues do is work from 8 am -12 pm and then maybe pick up one therapy case in the afternooon. It is a much, much better lifestyle with a for sure end result....it is definitely worth slogging from a few years of general medicine to achieve.

There is going to come a time where you want a life outside your work. Unfortunately, with the endless hurdles you have to go through to get through a psychologist, it can be very, very hard to have any type of life. With the limited income you will likely make as a psychologist, you will find it very hard to justify what you went through for the degree. I will be making $80K next year. While that may sound like a lot, when you want kids, a house, have to pay off modest student loans, et cetera, you will see that it isn't too great. And don't forget about the many, many years I spent earning my PhD in which I was, in essence, making nothing... If you are deadset on mental health as opposed to medicine, do SW. However, I would recommend psychiatry.... In my opinion, psychology is the least attractive option

Thanks for your input edieb. When you say "doing your own reading and practice*" outside of the theoretical orientation that they teach in a MSW program, is this enough "training" to then use it in private practice?

* ( im assuming practice in this case means internships/postdoc?)

 

[sydb1367]

I spoke to a direct loan servicing department yesterday and he told me that I would not qualify for IBR if I made 135k or above given my principle (which is high I might add). I don't know about the AGI needing to be above the principle, can you find a source? It would potentially be of some help to some of us beginning to pay back loans. Thanks.

my mistake, musta dreamt that, actually "you are eligible for IBR if the monthly repayment amount under IBR will be less than the monthly amount calculated under a 10-year standard repayment plan."
from: http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/OtherFormsOfRepay.jsp

According to their calculator, if you have an AGI of 135k, no kids, and 129k in loans or more, you qualify. So in this case one would qualify even though income>loans. But, then they have their disclaimer that this is only an estimate.

I wonder if ICR has any such requirements?

 

[2012PhD]

Thanks for your input edieb. When you say "doing your own reading and practice*" outside of the theoretical orientation that they teach in a MSW program, is this enough "training" to then use it in private practice?

* ( im assuming practice in this case means internships/postdoc?)

Go to an MSW program that has a strong clinical focus (as opposed to administration). You can do post-doctoral training in psychotherapy after your MSW program if you want additional training. There are numerous programs that are affordable and meant for working professions. Plus, there are tons of workshops available.

 

[aequitasveritas]

my mistake, musta dreamt that, actually "you are eligible for IBR if the monthly repayment amount under IBR will be less than the monthly amount calculated under a 10-year standard repayment plan."
from: http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/OtherFormsOfRepay.jsp

According to their calculator, if you have an AGI of 135k, no kids, and 129k in loans or more, you qualify. So in this case one would qualify even though income>loans. But, then they have their disclaimer that this is only an estimate.

I wonder if ICR has any such requirements?

Thanks bud.
From what I gather the icr allows u to switch to other plans if u don't qualify for it at some point. The ibr requires u to switch only to a standard plan. Yet the chances of making so much that u dnt quaoify for ibr is small.

 

[sydb1367]

Thanks bud.
From what I gather the icr allows u to switch to other plans if u don't qualify for it at some point. The ibr requires u to switch only to a standard plan. Yet the chances of making so much that u dnt quaoify for ibr is small.

challenge accepted. 😀

 

[2012PhD]

taken from the APPIC website:

LICENSING BOARDS: Each state and provincial licensing board has its own rules for determining the types of internships that are acceptable. Just because an internship is acceptable to your doctoral program doesn’t mean that it will be acceptable to a particular licensing board.

As of this writing, there are only a few jurisdictions that require an accredited internship in order to be licensed. Most others will accept a non-accredited internship, but many of those require the internship to meet certain criteria (which varies across jurisdictions). Much of the time, a site that is an APPIC member will meet that criteria, but there are no guarantees. Thus, attending a non-accredited internship program can increase the risk of having difficulties with the licensure process (e.g., if your internship is unacceptable to a particular licensing board).

 

[aequitasveritas]

challenge accepted. 😀

Haha