The Irish Disadvantage

[Handsome88]

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Can you explain what this means?

Yes, entirely on your own. Irish schools have simple requirement that you complete one elective before final year starts (during your summer time off) but offer nothing in the way of support. This is at UCC, anyway.

No Irish school recognizes North American electives as part of the cirriculum as of this year.

You have to complete one elective before the final year starts, AND it doesn't count as an elective if its in North America? Isn't it during the time most students study for the USMLE?
Also, if the North American electives do not count this means you have to do them as "extras". When do students have the time to do these extra electives?!
Please give us more information on this because this is really important news.
Is this for UCC only or what?

 

[med2UCC]

North American electives count as fulfilling the requirement that you do an elective between 4th and 5th year in Ireland. They do not count towards any kind of academic credit - no electives do, that's not the purpose of them. At UCC, anyway, you have to do some kind of elective between 4th and 5th year. Where you do this and what you do is largely up to the individual student. North American electives are fine. Yes, this is time that you would be studying for MCCEE or the USMLE step 2. However, most people manage to do several electives and study with no problems. Remember, much of what you are studying for exams is also stuff you just studied for your 4th year finals, and will need to know for your 5th year of med school. It's not like you're studying a completely different body of knowledge, art history for example, while trying to do electives. Cheers,
M

 

[Handsome88]

North American electives count as fulfilling the requirement that you do an elective between 4th and 5th year in Ireland. They do not count towards any kind of academic credit - no electives do, that's not the purpose of them. At UCC, anyway, you have to do some kind of elective between 4th and 5th year. Where you do this and what you do is largely up to the individual student. North American electives are fine. Yes, this is time that you would be studying for MCCEE or the USMLE step 2. However, most people manage to do several electives and study with no problems. Remember, much of what you are studying for exams is also stuff you just studied for your 4th year finals, and will need to know for your 5th year of med school. It's not like you're studying a completely different body of knowledge, art history for example, while trying to do electives. Cheers,
M

Is this for the 5 year courses only? Or does it also apply for the 4 year ones.
Also, does this mean I can't take an elective during the school year in North America?

 

[mtb2011]

Is this for the 5 year courses only? Or does it also apply for the 4 year ones.
Also, does this mean I can't take an elective during the school year in North America?

arent u glad i asked this question? 🙂 yeah it was kind of a shock to me as well. based on what im reading, i think we (if i get in) are stuck in ireland during the academic years. so basically during our summers 'off', we have to fit in electives, research, studying, and working parttime to cover living costs. are we screwed or what

 

[Handsome88]

arent u glad i asked this question? 🙂 yeah it was kind of a shock to me as well. based on what im reading, i think we (if i get in) are stuck in ireland during the academic years. so basically during our summers 'off', we have to fit in electives, research, studying, and working parttime to cover living costs. are we screwed or what

Exactly...and I'm the type of person that wants to live life too. This is just deterring me more and more from Ireland to SGU...

 

[jnuts]

Exactly...and I'm the type of person that wants to live life too. This is just deterring me more and more from Ireland to SGU...

If you want to live life then reconsider medicine.
That's a little tongue in cheek, but its pretty close to the truth.

In the four year program at RCSI you have two months off between 1st and 2nd year. Most people do very little during this break other than have a good time. People who need to beef up their research do it during the year.

You get 3 months off between 2nd and 3rd year, but if you're thinking of the States you need to write the Step 1 during this time. Most people get the score they're looking for after two months of studying. You can easily stick a two week observership or a developing world elective in here too. Most North American schools won't let you do electives during this period because you haven't done your core clinicals yet.

Between 3rd and 4th year you get three months. There are some schedules for final year that RCSI is fiddling with that may extend that by a month for the MCCEE or Step 2 depending on your bent. Everyone fills this time with electives and exam prep. At this point my schedule is 12 weeks of electives then a month for MCCEE.

In the end you loose part of one summer and all of the last.

As far as I've heard about the Caribbean, because your clinical training isn't offered at your home school, getting the electives to fill the core clinical requirements can be a nightmare. Then there's the stigma of making it obvious you couldn't get into a med school in the States. Finally, there are worse match statistics and there's no fall back plan if you don't match. In my mind, having to work an extra summer and a half is pretty small potatoes compared to those concerns.

 

[mtb2011]

If you want to live life then reconsider medicine.
That's a little tongue in cheek, but its pretty close to the truth.

In the four year program at RCSI you have two months off between 1st and 2nd year. Most people do very little during this break other than have a good time. People who need to beef up their research do it during the year.

You get 3 months off between 2nd and 3rd year, but if you're thinking of the States you need to write the Step 1 during this time. Most people get the score they're looking for after two months of studying. You can easily stick a two week observership or a developing world elective in here too. Most North American schools won't let you do electives during this period because you haven't done your core clinicals yet.

Between 3rd and 4th year you get three months. There are some schedules for final year that RCSI is fiddling with that may extend that by a month for the MCCEE or Step 2 depending on your bent. Everyone fills this time with electives and exam prep. At this point my schedule is 12 weeks of electives then a month for MCCEE.

In the end you loose part of one summer and all of the last.

As far as I've heard about the Caribbean, because your clinical training isn't offered at your home school, getting the electives to fill the core clinical requirements can be a nightmare. Then there's the stigma of making it obvious you couldn't get into a med school in the States. Finally, there are worse match statistics and there's no fall back plan if you don't match. In my mind, having to work an extra summer and a half is pretty small potatoes compared to those concerns.

HEY JNUTS!! i heard international students could not work part-time in ireland. How are people doing research during the school year? Thanks

 

[med2UCC]

HEY JNUTS!! i heard international students could not work part-time in ireland. How are people doing research during the school year? Thanks

Unless the rules have changed drastically, international students can work for 20 hours a week while studying. I worked more like 40 hours during my 4th year (in a 5 year program) and yes, that was stressful but I toughed it out and it was worth it. You can do unpaid research (many people work on a research project with a prof this way) or you can find a paid research job that is 20 hours/week. There is also very little enforcement of these rules, so if you step over the line and work more hours no one knows and no one gets hurt.
People also got jobs as phlebotomists and EKG techs over the weekends. I also know someone who worked in the morgue all 5 years of med school.
Really, if you're willing to work there are jobs. And if you're willing to work, med school is not that hard and there are ways to work, do school and have fun. I don't think any of my classmates would think that I didn't have time for my hobbies - I read a lot and also did a lot of traveling - or was unduly stressed by my study schedule. Then again, I'm not finding my residency that stressful either, so maybe I'm just constitutionally incapable of being stressed out. Oh, and I had lots of time to study for my MCCEE, nad did just fine thank you. I think people only study for a couple of months because they hear that's what's expected, not because they actually need the time. Cheers,
M

 

[jnuts]

HEY JNUTS!! i heard international students could not work part-time in ireland. How are people doing research during the school year? Thanks

I'd verify that the official limit is 20h/week of paid work. However, student research is largely unpaid, so you can do as much of that as you'd like.

 

[Jocks]

Exactly...and I'm the type of person that wants to live life too. This is just deterring me more and more from Ireland to SGU...

Jesus guys, calm down.

If you've done your research on SDN you know Irish grads match better (in canada at least) than any other country. The fact of the matter is that we really don't need to upsell Ireland. People know and respect our graduates, and there is a long list of people willing to come here.

So go do some research, find out where people match to. And make the decision you feel comfortable with.

Nobody who comes here regrets it, it would be a shame for you to be the first.

Jocks

 

[Arb]

You will have more free time and relatively less stress studying in an Irish school compared to pretty much any other school in the world. Students in Canada work their ass off and so do Caribbean students who have more to prove and less time to do it. You can take your summers off attending SGU or an Irish school but I wouldn't recommend it...for both.

 

[med2UCC]

Jesus guys, calm down.



🤣🤣🤣
Bingo! We had 16 Canadians in my class, all of whom matched into the specialty of their choice. I only know one Canadian who didn't match into their chosen specialty, and no one really can figure out why. All the Americans got into their specialty of choice. If you can match into Ortho and Rads in Canada from Ireland (2 people from UCC did last year) you can match into damn near anything (except maybe Derm in Canada - and CMG's don't have a good shot at derm, for heaven's sake).
All this agonising about how there only seem to be FP's and internists coming out of Ireland - maybe that's because the people who go there like FP and internal medicine? We've had good luck placing the few general surgeons and orthopods who came through too, so it's really preference, not a matter of taking the left-over spots.
The bottom line is, if you come to Ireland you will get an excellent medical education. What you do with that afterwards is entirely up to you and your own efforts. Cheers,
M

 

[Canuck07]

This is a great thread, very informative! A couple of questions of my own:
Jnuts: what is the fall back plan you speak of if Irish grads don’t match in NAmerica?
Jocks: have you seen any numbers or heard any stats saying that irish grads match better than UK grads? I know this UK vs Ireland topic has been discussed in depth on SDN but everything I’ve read so far suggests that graduates from both countries receive equivalent educations (that are also equally dissimilar to the programs back home) and do equally well in the NAmerican match.
Thanks

 

[Canuck07]

Nevermind my second question, I see from the caper website that 95 matched in Canada from Eire this year vs. 53 from the UK.

 

[med2UCC]

Nevermind my second question, I see from the caper website that 95 matched in Canada from Eire this year vs. 53 from the UK.

BUT - Keep in mind that there are fewer Canadians studying in the UK overall compared to Ireland.
I think if you could look at the actual number of students in both countries the match rates would be similar. In my experience everyone matches either to Canada or the US - and most of the people who match to the US do so by choice, not because there was nowhere in Canada for them. In my 5 years at UCC I can only think of 2 people who didn't match, and both of them were trying for very specific things in terms both of occupation and location. The key to matching, no matter where you go to med school, even for those trained in Canada, is to be flexible for location. Cheers,
M

 

[jnuts]

Nevermind my second question, I see from the caper website that 95 matched in Canada from Eire this year vs. 53 from the UK.

True, but in all fairness that may reflect the number of applicants. I know that the Caribbean has more Canadian students than eith Ireland or the UK which is why I mentioned the CAPER site. I have no idea how student Irish numbers compare with the UK.

The fall back plan for Canadians is staying in Ireland or the UK. Though this path has recently become more difficult to follow it is still available. It certainly is a strong possibility if you have an EU passport kicking around.

 

[Handsome88]

If you want to live life then reconsider medicine.
That's a little tongue in cheek, but its pretty close to the truth.

In the four year program at RCSI you have two months off between 1st and 2nd year. Most people do very little during this break other than have a good time. People who need to beef up their research do it during the year.

You get 3 months off between 2nd and 3rd year, but if you're thinking of the States you need to write the Step 1 during this time. Most people get the score they're looking for after two months of studying. You can easily stick a two week observership or a developing world elective in here too. Most North American schools won't let you do electives during this period because you haven't done your core clinicals yet.

Between 3rd and 4th year you get three months. There are some schedules for final year that RCSI is fiddling with that may extend that by a month for the MCCEE or Step 2 depending on your bent. Everyone fills this time with electives and exam prep. At this point my schedule is 12 weeks of electives then a month for MCCEE.

In the end you loose part of one summer and all of the last.

As far as I've heard about the Caribbean, because your clinical training isn't offered at your home school, getting the electives to fill the core clinical requirements can be a nightmare. Then there's the stigma of making it obvious you couldn't get into a med school in the States. Finally, there are worse match statistics and there's no fall back plan if you don't match. In my mind, having to work an extra summer and a half is pretty small potatoes compared to those concerns.

This is only for RCSI, and maybe other 4 year programs. As for 5 year programs like Trinity, we get 4+ months off during first and second year (in which we can't do anything useful, besides maybe research), and LESS THAN 2 months in third and fourth years.

I assume that we have to study for step one in third year, and so can only study for less than 2 months. We also have to do step two and/or MCCEE in 4th year, which is also only 2 months. On top of that we have to do electives. Is this some kind of a joke? No wonder only one person returned to North America from Trinity last year.

Please explain to me how they study for the Steps there!