The Low Point

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PistolPete3

PistolPete3

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I feel like I have finally hit my low point. I say my because I think everyone has a low point in medical school. We entered as 100+ young, motivated individuals both highly educated and on the verge of exciting careers.

We have now spent a year awash in immense detail devoid of any real context or meaning. The deliverables of this process (e.g. exams) are ever changing and have little basis in reality. The training has almost no direct connection to reality. Our finances have been raided by the system, and across the board we have sacrificed our mental health in pursuit of this ridiculous training protocol. If you want to run a study on learned-helplessness or the sunk-cost fallacy, study medical students.

I have had a particularly hard time, probably because I sacrificed an exciting career to pursue medicine. Looking back I would give a tremendous amount to never have matriculated. I do not really have any request for advice or question, and I most certainly should not post this rant on SDN (god knows there are enough rants on here). My question is more of an existential and rhetorical nature: what comes next?

I have passed all my classes, but I feel hollow. I find my trivial accomplishments insulting. "Oh you did great on that exam!" What the hell! I refuse to believe that performance on one of these contrived reductionist exams has any correlation with patient care whatsoever.

How when the healthcare system is facing such profound and significant challenges do we completely fail to educate doctors? There is no evidenced-based training, no morsel of real empathy, no professional respect, and not even a sliver of problem solving. I am made physically ill by the knowledge that we have collectively sacrificed close to 5 million dollars of tuition, a year in our young adulthood, and for many of us our health lifestyles to learn endless detail bereft of meaning or significance.

So any advice from other medical students? When is the time to quit? How do you quit? What comes next? In a former life I was a successful engineer. In this life I am a miserable slave to an institution I loathe more than just about anything else I have ever encountered up close. How do I get back to the former?
 
You might really like third year, much more context in learning but also has its own set of problems. Also you sound like a medicine person.
 
This is really well thought out. I definitely understand where you are coming from. I have had my low points, perhaps not as bad as yours. Maybe because I just don't think as much as you and just keep chugging along. The happy moments I had during first year definitely revolved around the few moments I was allowed to interact with patients and hang out with my classmates. Now working in a clinic doing research, I can say I definitely enjoy the clinic environment. I love the staff, seeing the patients (pediatric), and I can see myself working here and not getting tired. Though you seem to be in a low point, perhaps you should put yourself in a clinical situation to remind yourself of the end goal.
 
You're going through a philosophical time in your life where pretty much everything feels hollow. It's a phase and will likely pass. Keep doing what you're doing, and you'll eventually get back to the realization that real life is where you are now and that day to day is what happens.

Or maybe you'll turn into a hippie and stay that way forever. Who knows? Kidding...probably.
 
PistolPete3 said:
How when the healthcare system is facing such profound and significant challenges do we completely fail to educate doctors?
Click to expand...

But you've only had one year of med school...
ughs.gif
 
It is hard for anyone in your position to know what information you are learning is or is not superfluous. You sound like someone who would enjoy third year a lot more. Just keep in mind that you can't do it without first and second year knowledge.
 
PistolPete3 said:
There is no evidenced-based training, no morsel of real empathy, no professional respect, and not even a sliver of problem solving.
Click to expand...

The third-year students rotating on my service got all that in spades before 7 o'clock this morning.
 
Agreed with the statement above: you don't know what is and what isn't important yet. You're having an existential crisis before you've even existed, from a professional standpoint. Altruism, patient contact, evidence based medicine: these things are all very important, and all a part of your clinical rotations. But if you don't have a strong base, you'll never make it out of the gate. i won't tell you that everything you learn in your first two years is important, but most of it is there to help you understand the real, practical science once you come into contact with it. There is absolutely such a thing as having just enough information to be dangerous, and as you will see when working with -some- midlevel providers, having access to journals and evidence-based recommendations is not the same as understanding those things.
If you aren't particularly interested in the science, but simply want a fast route to be altruistic and have contact with patients, I would recommend nursing or social work.
 
As you allude to, everyone will have low points, regardless of where their baseline stands.

You are entering MS2?

It was a better year than MS1, imo.

Buyer's remorse is a common thing for med students. I can't say everyone experiences it at some point, but I will venture to say the majority indeed do.

The thread below might be worth briefly skimming, as there are some good points noted by others after my OP:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...se-the-experiences-thoughts-of-a-ms2.1106958/

As a brief update to my thoughts captured in that other thread, MS3 has in fact been very much different than anything the first 2 years threw my way. Studying for Step2 by prepping for shelf exams feels to have a higher functional utility to the content than prepping for Step1 by studying the content inherent to preclinical exams. MS3 is better in substance and application, but worse in subjectivity and lifestyle which can lead to other problems coming out of the woodwork.

But to go ahead and answer your rhetorical question: what happens next is you will get used to the grind enough to accept it through an entire new year (MS2). You will study hard for Step 1 (which might be the best or worst period of the prior 2 years for you). You will find a new meaning to time management during MS3. You will have hopefully found a specialty that you want to do for the next ~30 years and look forward to it. You will most likely thoroughly enjoy MS4. You will graduate. You will go to residency. You will hate your life intern year. It will eventually become a practicing physician... and you will live comfortably for the rest of your life (as long as you don't lose your license).

Do you have any specialties in mind currently?
 
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I have heard many senior students state that all you need to do is hold out for 4th year because that is the best year by far. You can take electives in the specialty of your choice and act more autonomously. You are interviewing for the next phase of your career. You will have free time during that year to travel and rest up.
 
I guess I didn't make it clear. I am not returning to medical school. Thinking about whether things would get better next year is purely an academic exercise. I see no point in paying another year and 50k into this process, much less 3 years and 150k.
 
PistolPete3 said:
I guess I didn't make it clear. I am not returning to medical school. Thinking about whether things would get better next year is purely an academic exercise. I see no point in paying another year and 50k into this process, much less 3 years and 150k.
Click to expand...

If the tests didn't involve as much cramming for every little detail do you think you would have stayed? Even if its not exactly critical thinking, don't you think it would have been significantly better if it didn't involve memorizing facts that you forget after a week? --i.e an easier curriculum
 
PistolPete3 said:
I feel like I have finally hit my low point. I say my because I think everyone has a low point in medical school. We entered as 100+ young, motivated individuals both highly educated and on the verge of exciting careers.

We have now spent a year awash in immense detail devoid of any real context or meaning. The deliverables of this process (e.g. exams) are ever changing and have little basis in reality. The training has almost no direct connection to reality. Our finances have been raided by the system, and across the board we have sacrificed our mental health in pursuit of this ridiculous training protocol. If you want to run a study on learned-helplessness or the sunk-cost fallacy, study medical students.

I have had a particularly hard time, probably because I sacrificed an exciting career to pursue medicine. Looking back I would give a tremendous amount to never have matriculated. I do not really have any request for advice or question, and I most certainly should not post this rant on SDN (god knows there are enough rants on here). My question is more of an existential and rhetorical nature: what comes next?

I have passed all my classes, but I feel hollow. I find my trivial accomplishments insulting. "Oh you did great on that exam!" What the hell! I refuse to believe that performance on one of these contrived reductionist exams has any correlation with patient care whatsoever.

How when the healthcare system is facing such profound and significant challenges do we completely fail to educate doctors? There is no evidenced-based training, no morsel of real empathy, no professional respect, and not even a sliver of problem solving. I am made physically ill by the knowledge that we have collectively sacrificed close to 5 million dollars of tuition, a year in our young adulthood, and for many of us our health lifestyles to learn endless detail bereft of meaning or significance.

So any advice from other medical students? When is the time to quit? How do you quit? What comes next? In a former life I was a successful engineer. In this life I am a miserable slave to an institution I loathe more than just about anything else I have ever encountered up close. How do I get back to the former?
Click to expand...

Careful. The consensus around here about first year is that it's not as time consuming at all and that engineering is way harder.
 
PistolPete3 said:
I guess I didn't make it clear. I am not returning to medical school. Thinking about whether things would get better next year is purely an academic exercise. I see no point in paying another year and 50k into this process, much less 3 years and 150k.
Click to expand...
Take it from someone that was a clinician prior to med school, finished first year, and went back to work for the summer- what you learn is important. Some stuff more than others, obviously, but it all adds up to something greater than the sum of its parts. You would probably be more suited to the clinical years of medical education.

It sounds like you're dealing with one of the big issues many nontrads, particularly those with formerly decent careers, suffer from- a dislike of the way your institution treats you like a child when you've been a functioning adult for some time now, and of the way the institution handles you as a student in general. Letting the institution beat you down is letting them win. I'd tough it out if you can, but it sounds like you're personality just can't cope with being told what to do for the next 7 years. Think hard on your decision, and stay if you find it worthwhile. Otherwise, as a wise man once said, bye Felicia.
 
You literally know nothing during first year. Not sure why you were expecting so much out of your education when you still lack the essential basics.

Gotta crawl before you can walk
 
The bad news: it will likely get significantly worse towards the end of second year and step 1.

The good news: it gets a lot better during M3 (the negative aspects of M3 notwithstanding), and M4 is the bomb.

Edit: Ah, I saw you decided to call it quits. Well that's too bad. I guess it's good that you determined that now. Good luck in the future.
 
medical school sucks man you made the right choice
if i had to do it again, i would get a legit mba or masters in health administration and make money off doctors' backs while contributing absolutely nothing
 
Psai said:
medical school sucks man you made the right choice
if i had to do it again, i would get a legit mba or masters in health administration and make money off doctors' backs while contributing absolutely nothing
Click to expand...

Can't you still get an MBA and do this?
 
there's something about being a leech on society that just feels wrong
what's the point of being a middle man who thieves from others when you can help save lives
 
My friend, I know your struggle, and it is an immense one. I haven't been on this site in a while, but I check it every now and again out of curiosity since quitting medical school a couple of months ago. I share many of the perplexities that you so articulately described -- in a time when this country so critically needs more dedicated doctors, the system is making it ever-more impossible for its aspirers to reach the all-mighty end-goal. But, I digress. My focus is positively on the future, which is becoming increasingly brighter. I no longer wake up feeling utterly exhausted, loathing the torturous hours ahead. As a natural pessimist, I must tell you that this facet of my newfound life alone has worked wonders on all aspects of my personal well-being. I recently began applying for full-time work and will be interviewing later this week for a position that would allow me the same salary & benefits as most starting residencies. This is only one of the several job offers that I have received, and I am excited to start the next chapter of my life, where I anticipate feeling fulfilled before bed -- because I am being treated with the respect that I deserve for my incessant hard work and soulful dedication. Doors are opening for me, and they will open for you too, should you make the bold move of foregoing your dream. I started a blog on Wordpress called 'soileftmedicalschool' so that I can offer a real glimpse of what it's like to so humbly return to the former life that you mention. I can't promise that all of my posts will be as uplifting as this one, and I'm sure that I will face a series of pressing times as I continue to rearrange the shambles; but, so far, having gotten into medical school has been a powerful addition to my resume. There is no shame in changing directions. Best of luck to you.
 
Psai said:
medical school sucks man you made the right choice
if i had to do it again, i would get a legit mba or masters in health administration and make money off doctors' backs while contributing absolutely nothing
Click to expand...
You still have that opportunity. Dat physician executive MBA...
 
sazerac said:
You mean third year was so bad it made the first two years seem good by comparison?
Click to expand...

Yes. I even enjoyed my Step 1 studying more than all of my core clerkships if that gives you any indication.

If you couldn't tell, I chose a field with little patient care.

But I still think people who enjoy 3rd year are crazy.
 
notbobtrustme said:
3rd year is easily the worst year. Easily.

It's not even close. If studying for Step 1 is painful, then 3rd year is an extended stay in a Soviet Gulag.
Click to expand...

If you don't like clinical medicine this is true. Otherwise it will be much better.

I didn't like the first two years of med school too much. Regardless being a med student is an annoying process at all levels.
 
I hit my low point 3rd year, when I decided to continue MS3 while my 4 year old child was admitted to the ICU a few weeks prior, ended up staying for 9 months. The crappy thing was, my rotations were in a different state, and none of the hospitals around the hospital my child was at would allow me to rotate there since I was an IMG and had no affiliation with my school. I was thinking, I need to finish medical school for my family's sake so we are not sitting on 225K+ debt, (now 350k.)

The way they educate physicians is outdated, and I don't think they will change the process any time soon. If anything, it seems like they adding more exams to train physicians and for physicians themselves. It's ridiculous. At times, I get the feeling that the medical associations are trying desperately to hold on to training tradition that technology, computer science will make irrelevant in 5-10 years.

I graduated medical school recently, didn't match -- will apply again next year. At the end of the day, I do enjoy helping people w/their health on a 1 vs 1 level. I have experience in finance, majored in finance. In the past few months, I did interview for a few business related healthcare jobs in the major cities but declined offers -- on par with PGY-1 salaries but ultimately, I wanted to stay close to family and find research. You know, It was nice to have all my expenses paid for -- flight, hotel, food, no application fee.

What is unfortunate, is that I am highly educated, a hard worker, have a M.D., working 2 part time jobs, researching, and my pay grade is at the level of when I was a busboy/server in high school. I wish the whole residency process was at least a biannual process so I can move along with my career.
 
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PistolPete3 said:
My question is more of an existential and rhetorical nature: what comes next?

I have passed all my classes, but I feel hollow. I find my trivial accomplishments insulting. "Oh you did great on that exam!" What the hell! I refuse to believe that performance on one of these contrived reductionist exams has any correlation with patient care whatsoever.
Click to expand...

The very nature of existentialism posits the responsibility of creating meaning on you. You're the author, and therefore only, determinant of your fate. If you believe an action or circumstance to have meaning then it does. Sadly, the reverse is also true.

If you're seeking some higher wisdom or meaning which exists objectively and independently of medicine, I'm afraid you'll be gravely disappointed. Life is largely irrational and meaningless without the goals and self-derived purpose that we establish for ourselves. You've been handed an opportunity to create a reality for yourself that is greater than 90% of all humanity will ever experience. Please do not discard it so lightly.
 
PistolPete3 said:
I feel like I have finally hit my low point. I say my because I think everyone has a low point in medical school. We entered as 100+ young, motivated individuals both highly educated and on the verge of exciting careers.

We have now spent a year awash in immense detail devoid of any real context or meaning. The deliverables of this process (e.g. exams) are ever changing and have little basis in reality. The training has almost no direct connection to reality. Our finances have been raided by the system, and across the board we have sacrificed our mental health in pursuit of this ridiculous training protocol. If you want to run a study on learned-helplessness or the sunk-cost fallacy, study medical students.

I have had a particularly hard time, probably because I sacrificed an exciting career to pursue medicine. Looking back I would give a tremendous amount to never have matriculated. I do not really have any request for advice or question, and I most certainly should not post this rant on SDN (god knows there are enough rants on here). My question is more of an existential and rhetorical nature: what comes next?

I have passed all my classes, but I feel hollow. I find my trivial accomplishments insulting. "Oh you did great on that exam!" What the hell! I refuse to believe that performance on one of these contrived reductionist exams has any correlation with patient care whatsoever.

How when the healthcare system is facing such profound and significant challenges do we completely fail to educate doctors? There is no evidenced-based training, no morsel of real empathy, no professional respect, and not even a sliver of problem solving. I am made physically ill by the knowledge that we have collectively sacrificed close to 5 million dollars of tuition, a year in our young adulthood, and for many of us our health lifestyles to learn endless detail bereft of meaning or significance.

So any advice from other medical students? When is the time to quit? How do you quit? What comes next? In a former life I was a successful engineer. In this life I am a miserable slave to an institution I loathe more than just about anything else I have ever encountered up close. How do I get back to the former?
Click to expand...
Why did you leave your career in engineering?
 
I went to med school at 39 yo i have a top tier mba and a chemistry MS worked in corporate america >10 yrs my take on this DO NOT QUIT MED SCHOOL = med school has nothing to do with the work you will do as a dr. Sure it gives you a foundation- but our actual work can be analytical = and there is a huge diversity of what you can do (High tech stuff like radonc to human interaction in FP) I worked at several fortune 500 companies I've been through lay offs restructrings hostile take overs and liquidations THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO JOB SECURITY IN BUSINESS- and pay maybe you can make >200k per year- it will take years to get there and you will never feel secure in your job MDs have the closet thing to a well paying recession proof job- I would go to med school again in a heart beat If you are smart you will stay in medical school If you leave one day I think you'll be sorry Give your decision a lot of thought you may never have this chance again
 
Hopefully your lowest point isn't match week because that just plain sucks. Especially after all the buildup for 3 and a half years to get to that point.

It just sucks.
 
OP: It's been 3 months since I walked away med school in the middle of 2nd semester. I also went back to engineering. I have no regrets, my reasons for leaving were a bit more practical but I had some similar complaints as you. I don't recommend medical school to anyone unless someone else is paying for it and they've never worked in a decent job.
 
PistolPete3 said:
I guess I didn't make it clear. I am not returning to medical school. Thinking about whether things would get better next year is purely an academic exercise. I see no point in paying another year and 50k into this process, much less 3 years and 150k.
Click to expand...
“It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everyone would do it.”
 
nowanmd said:
I went to med school at 39 yo i have a top tier mba and a chemistry MS worked in corporate america >10 yrs my take on this DO NOT QUIT MED SCHOOL = med school has nothing to do with the work you will do as a dr. Sure it gives you a foundation- but our actual work can be analytical = and there is a huge diversity of what you can do (High tech stuff like radonc to human interaction in FP) I worked at several fortune 500 companies I've been through lay offs restructrings hostile take overs and liquidations THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO JOB SECURITY IN BUSINESS- and pay maybe you can make >200k per year- it will take years to get there and you will never feel secure in your job MDs have the closet thing to a well paying recession proof job- I would go to med school again in a heart beat If you are smart you will stay in medical school If you leave one day I think you'll be sorry Give your decision a lot of thought you may never have this chance again
Click to expand...

Your period key broke.
 
link2swim06 said:
If you don't like clinical medicine this is true. Otherwise it will be much better.

I didn't like the first two years of med school too much. Regardless being a med student is an annoying process at all levels.
Click to expand...

You can like clinical medicine and still hate 3rd year. It just sucks being a clerkship student running around in your short coat with no reason to be respected and no clue of what's going on and the moment you feel slightly comfortable you're shipped off to another rotation. You get judged by subjective evals written by people who don't remember you and for some reason these grades are deemed extremely important. Meanwhile you've got gunners to your right and left sucking up like crazy so they can match derm in Cali because they treat their success in medical school as a substitute for being a well-adjusted person.

The first two years of med school have their problems. But third year is the worst. Thank goodness fourth year is so great, it nearly makes up for it (almost).
 
Shipping News said:
You can like clinical medicine and still hate 3rd year. It just sucks being a clerkship student running around in your short coat with no reason to be respected and no clue of what's going on and the moment you feel slightly comfortable you're shipped off to another rotation. You get judged by subjective evals written by people who don't remember you and for some reason these grades are deemed extremely important. Meanwhile you've got gunners to your right and left sucking up like crazy so they can match derm in Cali because they treat their success in medical school as a substitute for being a well-adjusted person.

The first two years of med school have their problems. But third year is the worst. Thank goodness fourth year is so great, it nearly makes up for it (almost).
Click to expand...

To each their own opinion. I hated the first two years. Super boring. Irrelevant for the most part.

You have no reason to be respected. For all intensive purposes it is your first year in medicine. Quite frankly you will get evals from people who barely remember you for the rest of your career (pts and press Gainey).
 
link2swim06 said:
To each their own opinion. I hated the first two years. Super boring. Irrelevant for the most part.

You have no reason to be respected. For all intensive purposes it is your first year in medicine. Quite frankly you will get evals from people who barely remember you for the rest of your career (pts and press Gainey).
Click to expand...

getting paid makes all the difference.
 
link2swim06 said:
To each their own opinion. I hated the first two years. Super boring. Irrelevant for the most part.

You have no reason to be respected. For all intensive purposes it is your first year in medicine. Quite frankly you will get evals from people who barely remember you for the rest of your career (pts and press Gainey).
Click to expand...

which intensive purposes are we speaking of
 
link2swim06 said:
To each their own opinion. I hated the first two years. Super boring. Irrelevant for the most part.
Click to expand...

Yeah the first 2 years were kinda boring but at least it was a system I was used to. Study, take tests, relax, repeat. I do not think the bulk of my preclinical education was completely irrelevant.

link2swim06 said:
You have no reason to be respected. For all intensive purposes it is your first year in medicine.
Click to expand...

Of course I had no reason to be respected -- that's the part that sucked...feeling like a dope 24/7. I knew how useless I was.

link2swim06 said:
Quite frankly you will get evals from people who barely remember you for the rest of your career (pts and press Gainey).
Click to expand...

Come on, dude. That's a really weak justification.
 
The field you go into in part determines how useful medical education was. Some fields, like internal medicine and pathology, use a lot of stuff from med school. Others, like derm, may feel like starting school all over again, so i've heard.
 
link2swim06 said:
You have no reason to be respected. For all intensive purposes it is your first year in medicine. Quite frankly you will get evals from people who barely remember you for the rest of your career (pts and press Gainey).
Click to expand...
Your attitude is why third year can be so miserable for so many med students. You are also pathetic in defending Press-Ganey.
notbobtrustme said:
3rd year is easily the worst year. Easily.

It's not even close. If studying for Step 1 is painful, then 3rd year is an extended stay in a Soviet Gulag.
Click to expand...
Shipping News said:
Yes. I even enjoyed my Step 1 studying more than all of my core clerkships if that gives you any indication.

If you couldn't tell, I chose a field with little patient care.

But I still think people who enjoy 3rd year are crazy.
Click to expand...
giantswing said:
Yes. I hated third year. But i liked first and second year, where people who hated thoe years were much happier.
Click to expand...
+4

The people who say they just absolutely loved third year in comparison to the first 2 years, are usually people who don't like reading/studying, or didn't do as well on Step 1 or basic science classes. It also sounds "cooler" to say how much you hate the first 2 years. Much more taboo to say out loud how much you hated third year.
 
charmiedermie said:
Your attitude is why third year can be so miserable for so many med students. You are also pathetic in defending Press-Ganey.



+4

The people who say they just absolutely loved third year in comparison to the first 2 years, are usually people who don't like reading/studying, or didn't do as well on Step 1 or basic science classes. It also sounds "cooler" to say how much you hate the first 2 years. Much more taboo to say out loud how much you hated third year.
Click to expand...

I don't mind reading/studying, but for me there needs to be a happy medium. I don't find reading/studying for hours on end every day to be particularly fulfilling. Wasting away in a hospital being redundant also isn't particularly fulfilling, but I'd prefer that over memorizing minutia.
 
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