The **NEW & IMPROVED** official low gpa thread...

[ILikeFood]

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LOL..if this is the worst written statement..then u HAVENT read much....LOL....

If you saw my post---I am NEW here--so do not know what a TROLL is--but just using some common sense and context clues...I'd say its not a GOOD thing...and definitely not ME!!!...LOL

I was mentioning Emory because I thought that particular B.S. in Neuroscience and Behavioral Biology would be GOOD for me--b/c I was interested in it very much--and it seem to be A LOT about ur ugrad gpa

I did not come in w/a MD/DO fight--I said it so people could understand--I guess anYone who knows what it mean---that I was not against DO and do not see it in a bad light..so if someone wanted to give me advice about going that route...I welcome it....

A LOT of posters--just like urself assume everyone wants to GO to IVY league, top-tier med school, etc; I just wrote a preface stating I had no preference--just that I get into a med school with a SOLID plan

I wish some of you all would READ before you respond...I mean my post was harmless and you calling it a TROLL and this is my 1st day posting...WOW

Nevertheless, when I get into Emory..I'll send you a post-card!!! Hon, never tell me what I wont be aBLE to do!!!!

Again, POSITIVE FEEDBACK IS WELCOMED

You're right. You'll be fine with a 3.15 and an 18Q. Apply to Emory next cycle and see what happens. If you don't get in, apply again. If you decide to do an SMP, I'm sure Georgetown's SMP will welcome you with open arms. A 3.15 and an 18Q? There are no doors that won't open for you.

 

[ILikeFood]

klassicBeauty, I just read your original post and it is full of hot air. Let me point out something for you. Nobody cares about the context in which you failed to make the cut. An 18Q is an 18Q. A 3.15 is a 3.15. Your claims of being intelligent only make you sound less so; you mean you could've gotten a 36, but chose to not study a day and score an 18? You mean you could've done better in your classes, but chose to take 22 units and let your gpa suffer? Oh, let's not forget that the combination of the two just doomed you to at least two years of gpa and MCAT rehabilitation.

Really, how smart could you be, to let something like that happen?

Why don't you get off your high horse and just get going? Make your plan, execute it, and if you have what it takes, come back in two years and update us with the good news. There are thousands of people who think Emory Med would be perfect for them. Very few actually make it in. Stop with the jibber jabber. With an 18Q, my dog stands an equal chance of getting into a postbacc as you.

 

[Allopathic13]

I will just be forthright.


Klassic,
That 18 is absolutely dreadful, you can certainly make it into med Schools, good med schools, with a low GPA but you have to kill the MCAT. I'm talking like 39-40. Otherwise, you need to do a Postbacc and get that GPA, if possible, up to at least a 3.3 and then you must still get about a 35 on the MCAT. It certainly is possible, but you have a long road ahead. As for EMT/Clinical experience, that is great for extracurricular/relevant activities in med school app, but it will mean nil if your GPA and MCAT don't show a drastic improvement.

 

[klassicBeauty]

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[klassicBeauty]

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[klassicBeauty]

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[klassicBeauty]

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[klassicBeauty]

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[BORNagainSTDENT]

Hello, I am 26 and finished a bachelors in business management with a horrible 2.1 over several years. I have just started the Pre Reqs at Hunter college in NYC, taking chem 102 and was put into the decel chem after failing the first test.
I have has some personal issues that are too long to get into but am working on them, So please don't be too harsh, It's not like I am out enjoying my life instead.
Studying on my own and living at home has never really worked for me. I end up thinking about studying and not actually doing it. I think I would really benefit from being away with others working towards the same goal with a change in enviornment. Especially since not working at my age takes a hit at my self esteem and makes me feel isolated and unproductive.
I was curious what my options were with my embarassing GPA and my age? Is is uncommon and weird for me to dorm away at my age? Am I wrong in thinking I might easily fall into a group of peonple like myself studying PreMed? Thanks

 

[garyinthehouse]

Hey guys!

I am in the following situation....

1) I will probably finish UC Irvine (in 3 months) with a 3.33 cGPA in Neurobio and a BCPM of probably 3.2. UC Irvine biology department prohibits anyone from staying an extra year to boost their GPA. Once you're a senior and you're done, your butt is out of UCI. 😱

2) My MCAT was a 23 and then a 27. After UC Irvine, I will study hard for 5 months and take the Jan exam in 2010. I will only do MCAT so I think I can break 30 and do a little more than that

3) This fall, I will apply to SMP programs with my old MCAT score and update in late February of 2010 the SMP programs I applied to with my new and hopefully improved score.

Does this work out? Any suggestions?

 

[DrMidlife]

Hello, I am 26 and finished a bachelors in business management with a horrible 2.1 over several years. I have just started the Pre Reqs at Hunter college in NYC, taking chem 102 and was put into the decel chem after failing the first test.
I have has some personal issues that are too long to get into but am working on them, So please don't be too harsh, It's not like I am out enjoying my life instead.
Studying on my own and living at home has never really worked for me. I end up thinking about studying and not actually doing it. I think I would really benefit from being away with others working towards the same goal with a change in enviornment. Especially since not working at my age takes a hit at my self esteem and makes me feel isolated and unproductive.
I was curious what my options were with my embarassing GPA and my age? Is is uncommon and weird for me to dorm away at my age? Am I wrong in thinking I might easily fall into a group of peonple like myself studying PreMed? Thanks

I'm going to be as encouraging as possible within the limits of reality.

A change in environment could have a positive impact on your GPA. Nobody's going to stop you from living in a dorm or finding a shared house with serious students. You can't expect other students to take the time to teach you to study, however (they're busy studying). Have you consulted the academic counselors at Hunter? Have you taken advantage of any tutoring or study center opportunities?

I suggest to you that before you take on a new environment, simulate it. Just don't leave school until you're done studying. If there's a study center, use it. If there's an open study floor in the library, use it. If being around other studying students while you're studying doesn't positively impact your study effort, then it's unlikely that changing your living environment will do the trick.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Hey guys!

I am in the following situation....

1) I will probably finish UC Irvine (in 3 months) with a 3.33 cGPA in Neurobio and a BCPM of probably 3.2. UC Irvine biology department prohibits anyone from staying an extra year to boost their GPA. Once you're a senior and you're done, your butt is out of UCI. 😱

2) My MCAT was a 23 and then a 27. After UC Irvine, I will study hard for 5 months and take the Jan exam in 2010. I will only do MCAT so I think I can break 30 and do a little more than that

3) This fall, I will apply to SMP programs with my old MCAT score and update in late February of 2010 the SMP programs I applied to with my new and hopefully improved score.

Does this work out? Any suggestions?

1) If you want to do additional undergrad work to up that GPA, just go to another school. Don't get hung up on school prestige; a CSU won't hurt you. UCLA extension might be a possibility.

Changing your state of residence to TX or FL or similar would dramatically improve your chances of getting into a public school.

Otherwise this looks fine to me. Keep in mind that if you are going to apply to UCs, you need to finish the SMP before you apply, so that's another gap year.

Best of luck to you.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing but kept going back and forth in my head. I don't think they have a study center for anyhting other than math, unless you mean the library.
I guess I will have to really have to force at least a chapter a day and learn to tune other thoughts out.

besides the basic Pre Reqs should I be taking other classes to try and bring my GPA up? Chemistry is not offered during the summer and I really don't know what I should take instead, should I start my physics or bio reqs.

 

[Perrotfish]

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing but kept going back and forth in my head. I don't think they have a study center for anyhting other than math, unless you mean the library.
I guess I will have to really have to force at least a chapter a day and learn to tune other thoughts out.

Also, have you considered talking to a psychologist, to see if you might be a candidate for some type of medication to help improve your concentration? Med schools don't discriminate

besides the basic Pre Reqs should I be taking other classes to try and bring my GPA up? Chemistry is not offered during the summer and I really don't know what I should take instead, should I start my physics or bio reqs.

First, yes, your first priority is to start on your physics and bio prereqs and to do well in those. As for other classes to improve your GPA, to be honest, with a 2.1 I think you should definitely be focused on DO schools, which means retaking courses you have aready taken to get better grades in them. DO schools only consider your most recent grade in a class, so this can lead to a pretty rapid improvement of your GPA if you do well. If you're determened to try for an MD, you should take the easiest upper level science courses you can find, but that path would probably take several years more than DO, even if everything goes well.

 

[garyinthehouse]

1) If you want to do additional undergrad work to up that GPA, just go to another school. Don't get hung up on school prestige; a CSU won't hurt you. UCLA extension might be a possibility.

Changing your state of residence to TX or FL or similar would dramatically improve your chances of getting into a public school.

Otherwise this looks fine to me. Keep in mind that if you are going to apply to UCs, you need to finish the SMP before you apply, so that's another gap year.

Best of luck to you.

I wasn't aware of the UC's wanting you to complete your SMP...In any case, I'm considering the SMP route. I can take a few classes here and there but I think the reason why my GPA is barely holding up is because of 24 units of research which I got A's in. I've heard that medschools will not count research in your cGPA, even the BCPM (although it was Biomed reserach)...is this true?

 

[DrMidlife]

I wasn't aware of the UC's wanting you to complete your SMP

It's true - one of the many useless-to-me factoids I learned by reading all 4000 Gtown yahoo group posts. UCs are too competitive to wait for your first term SMP grades before evaluating you.

I've heard that medschools will not count research in your cGPA, even the BCPM (although it was Biomed reserach)...is this true?

That would be ridiculous. Was it coursework? Is it on your transcript? Then it's in your GPA. For crying out loud, I have Music of the 60's and Automotive Repair on my AMCAS (not that these were BCPM).

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Also, have you considered talking to a psychologist, to see if you might be a candidate for some type of medication to help improve your concentration? Med schools don't discriminate

Thanks for the help. I actually already take vyvanse which is similar to adderal. The problem is my mind races and I am currently exploring options with my doctor that won't impair my cognition like benzo's tend to do.... what do you mean by med schools don't discriminate, do you mean if
I was to tell them about my difficulties?

First, yes, your first priority is to start on your physics and bio prereqs and to do well in those. As for other classes to improve your GPA, to be honest, with a 2.1 I think you should definitely be focused on DO schools, which means retaking courses you have aready taken to get better grades in them. DO schools only consider your most recent grade in a class, so this can lead to a pretty rapid improvement of your GPA if you do well. If you're determened to try for an MD, you should take the easiest upper level science courses you can find, but that path would probably take several years more than DO, even if everything goes well.

Thanks. I know my GPA is rediculously low, however I really don't want to go back and retake business classes. I guess I need to consider it, do I need to do them at my orginal institution?
I don't think hunter is offering chem this summer and don't know what they are offering yet. If I want the post bacc certificate I would need to take all my classes at Hunter. I think I might be missing what they officially call "PreCalc", which is a co rec, so I might be limited to bio for the summer, I hope they offer it and I can squeeze in. If nothing is open or offered maybe I would should consider forgeting the certificate. ? Thanks

 

[AndyEmmDee]

a

 

[Perrotfish]

I've applied to two caribbean schools, but pretty sure i'll get denied from both.

I'm not at all sure of that. With a 31 I think you have an excellent chance of admission to a 'big 4' school, even with your GPA. BTW I said 'big 4' for a reason, there are at least 2 more carib schools you should have applied to and should apply to for this coming spring semester. Make sure you understand how easy it is to either fail out of an island school, or to graduate and not match. That being said, with a GPA as low as yours this is probably the option I'd go with. If you go this route, make absolutely sure that you've fixed the problem that got you the 2.4 in the first place.

What post-bacs might I have a fighting chance at getting into?

None, until your GPA improves. SMPs generally accept people with GPAs of 2.75 and above.

I'm considering MPH, anyone know of any programs I could get into with these stats?

Several, but it won't help your medical school application one iota. Grad school grades, outside of an SMP, don't help repair a terrible undergraduate GPA. Don't get an MPH unless you're giving up medical school for a career in public health

If I'm forced to do more undergrad coursework, would it make sense to pursue more upper division biology classes? Or does re-taking basic pre-med sciences that I did poorly in sound like the most efficient use of my time and money?

Depends if you're shooting for MD or DO. MD schools don't let you replace your grades, DO schools only take your most recent grade in a course. So if you're going MD you should take upper division classes and if you're going DO you should retake classes. With a GPA as low as yours, I'd recommend focusing on DO and retaking the classes you did worst in. When you get your GPA up to a 2.8 (with grade replacement) you might be a candidate for some of the lower tier DO schools.

 

[AndyEmmDee]

a

 

[yadave]

hey guys,

me again. I have a question about what classes I should be taking. I am trying to bring a low gpa up to par for applying to University of Cincinnati's SMP and I noticed that someone said that if you are aiming for a MD school then you shouldnt worry about replacing or retaking the core pre reqs (correct me if im wrong and I misunderstood) and should rather focus on upper levels. By upper levels, if I take a course load of 20 credits (ive been taking this many credits for past couple quarters and have gotten a 4.0) should I do like half upper levels and then half other classes? Any suggestions about how I should arrange my quarters would be much appreciated! Thanks guys!

 

[DrMidlife]

I do intend on an allopathic degree. I don't mind that courses won't get replaced. Rather, my mindset is that if I can build a strong enough post-college academic reputation, medical schools will look to the fact that I was young and stupid in college, and that this is no longer the case.

That being said, I'm prepared to put a solid 4+ years of work into building that reputation.

Does this plan sound fool-proof enough?

Fall 2009: Undergrad coursework
Spring 2010: Undergrad coursework, apply to MPH
Fall 2010: Do MPH
Spring 2011: Do MPH
Fall 2011: Do MPH
Spring 2012: Finish MPH, apply to SMP
Fall 2012: Do SMP
Spring 2013: Finish SMP, retake MCAT, Apply to allopathic schools

In this fashion, I want to "work my way up the ladder", from undergrad coursework, to graduate coursework, to SMP coursework, to medical school.

Does it sound like it'll work?

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that you have the academic mettle to succeed in med school. You are up against 18,000 competitors for US MD schools, most of whom never made any mistakes. 60% of this applicant pool is rejected with strong credentials.

Fundamentally, med schools are going to look at your record and say "nice MCAT score, but where's the longitudinal aptitude in rigorous academics?" Your undergrad GPA is how you will be measured, long before any human eyeballs see your application, and you will not make it past autoscreens with a sub-3.0 undergrad GPA.

An MPH will NOT prove anything to med school admissions committees about your academic prowess in a med school setting. The coursework in an MPH is soft. On top of a strong undergrad GPA, an MPH is an interesting extracurricular. On top of a weak undergrad GPA, an MPH is an effort that is orthogonal to your burden of proof. Forget the MPH for now - you will have endless opportunities to study public health if/when you get into med school (many of these opportunities are free and/or accelerated for physicians).

Since you're willing to spend multiple years on getting into med school, one thing to consider is moving to Texas, where you can have your entire undergrad record forgiven. You'd theoretically be eligible to redo your undergrad degree and have only the new work count towards admission in one of TX's plentiful, cheap, outstanding public med schools. If this sounds good, proceed with extreme caution and lawyerly assistance.

What I would do in your shoes:
1. Get your undergrad GPAs over 3.0 (which may not be mathematically possible). This will take at least 3 years, and you should NOT do any further coursework until you're ready to get A's and only A's.
2. After your undergrad GPA is maximized, do a reputable SMP, such as Gtown, Cincinnati et al.
3. Retake the MCAT and get 35+.
4. Do everything possible to have stellar faculty recommendations, and a generally fascinating application package, that make med school admissions committees want to fight for you against the hordes of youngsters with better numbers.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

hey guys,

me again. I have a question about what classes I should be taking. I am trying to bring a low gpa up to par for applying to University of Cincinnati's SMP and I noticed that someone said that if you are aiming for a MD school then you shouldnt worry about replacing or retaking the core pre reqs (correct me if im wrong and I misunderstood) and should rather focus on upper levels. By upper levels, if I take a course load of 20 credits (ive been taking this many credits for past couple quarters and have gotten a 4.0) should I do like half upper levels and then half other classes? Any suggestions about how I should arrange my quarters would be much appreciated! Thanks guys!

Do whatever you want as long as you keep that 4.0 going, imho.

If you got less than a C in a prereq, then you have to retake it. If you simply cannot remember the material for MCAT prep, then a retake is reasonable.

Otherwise, retaking a prereq makes slightly less sense than taking a new class. A retake demonstrates that on the second try you can succeed; new coursework demonstrates that you can get it on the first try.

But that's after somebody goes through your transcript line-by-line, and it's arguably never even going to come up. So if you really just want to do more o-chem, then do more o-chem. Just get an A.

I don't remember your numbers, but assuming your overall GPA was low, then take any interesting non-science courses you like. Upper div is more interesting here than lower div, but if for instance you want to take a freshman landscape architecture class, that's fine if it's nestled among bunches of upper-div coursework.

So to sum up, keep that 4.0 by any means necessary. Take as heavy a load as you can without endangering that 4.0. Mix things up with science and non-science, with an eye for how your overall and BCPM are affected. Repeat a prereq if you need to or really want to. Take a lower div non-science class if you really want to. Regardless, for the love of all that's holy, keep that 4.0.

Best of luck to you.

 

[SchemeD]

I have a question...how do people with such low GPA's really expect to get into Med School?

I just read about a guy from a decent top 40 undergrad college with a 3.8 overall, 3.9 science, 32 MCAT, and very good-looking EC's who has gotten rejected by about 30 med schools.

It's not that it is a steep hill to climb, but it seems like a huge gamble. And we're not just competing against "traditional" applications, but it seems like there is a decent sized pool of applicants who "turned it around" that I don't think a dramatic upward trend would really set us apart.

I'm not discouraging anyone, I'm just seriously asking what is keeping your optimism up.

Are most of these people who are compensating for a low GPA applying for DO schools? This I can definitely see, and you probably have a good chance at these if you really 180.

Or perhaps some of these horrendous GPA's (and trust me I have been there before) are applying for other schools (pharm, dentistry, physical therapy?) that are not as competitive as MD programs, and I'm just not reading closely?

 

[yadave]

I had a 2.85 on graduation, not URM. I was accepted into medical school (MD, not DO) on my second application cycle after a high but not spectacular MCAT and an SMP. This process isn't quite as hard as the matriculant averages make it seem like and it is WAY easier than SDN makes it seem like. The only trick here is not to do what most my rejected friends did and

A) give up

or

B) do something that SHOULD improve your app in a sane world, but doesn't actually help much (years of research, EMT work, an MPH, a (not special) masters program, Peace Corps, Americorps, Marine Corps, whatever)

Also this was a provocotive post from someone with a stupid screenname. If there's a second bad post following this post I call troll.

this is why i love SDN. you rock perrotfish lol

 

[Perrotfish]

hey guys,

me again. I have a question about what classes I should be taking. I am trying to bring a low gpa up to par for applying to University of Cincinnati's SMP and I noticed that someone said that if you are aiming for a MD school then you shouldnt worry about replacing or retaking the core pre reqs (correct me if im wrong and I misunderstood) and should rather focus on upper levels. By upper levels, if I take a course load of 20 credits (ive been taking this many credits for past couple quarters and have gotten a 4.0) should I do like half upper levels and then half other classes? Any suggestions about how I should arrange my quarters would be much appreciated! Thanks guys!

The only reason I've ever been told not to retake prereqs you got a C or higher in is that, I've been told, if you botch the class TWICE it's a major red flag, while accidentally screwing up an upper division class for the first time isn't so bad. If you keep the 4.0, though, retaking Cs in prereqs isn't a particularly bad idea.

Of course, the other nice thing about upper level sciences is that, well, you learn things. Things that can help in medical school, or in research, or just things that are fun to know. After all, in addition to being a way to improve your app, this is also an education. Just my opinion. Really if you keep the 4.0 you're doing more than fine.

 

[yadave]

Do whatever you want as long as you keep that 4.0 going, imho.

If you got less than a C in a prereq, then you have to retake it. If you simply cannot remember the material for MCAT prep, then a retake is reasonable.

Otherwise, retaking a prereq makes slightly less sense than taking a new class. A retake demonstrates that on the second try you can succeed; new coursework demonstrates that you can get it on the first try.

But that's after somebody goes through your transcript line-by-line, and it's arguably never even going to come up. So if you really just want to do more o-chem, then do more o-chem. Just get an A.

I don't remember your numbers, but assuming your overall GPA was low, then take any interesting non-science courses you like. Upper div is more interesting here than lower div, but if for instance you want to take a freshman landscape architecture class, that's fine if it's nestled among bunches of upper-div coursework.

So to sum up, keep that 4.0 by any means necessary. Take as heavy a load as you can without endangering that 4.0. Mix things up with science and non-science, with an eye for how your overall and BCPM are affected. Repeat a prereq if you need to or really want to. Take a lower div non-science class if you really want to. Regardless, for the love of all that's holy, keep that 4.0.

Best of luck to you.

ok cool. I gotcha now.👍 thanks for the input! its very much appreciated. 🙂

 

[yadave]

I have a question...how do people with such low GPA's really expect to get into Med School?

I just read about a guy from a decent top 40 undergrad college with a 3.8 overall, 3.9 science, 32 MCAT, and very good-looking EC's who has gotten rejected by about 30 med schools.

It's not that it is a steep hill to climb, but it seems like a huge gamble. And we're not just competing against "traditional" applications, but it seems like there is a decent sized pool of applicants who "turned it around" that I don't think a dramatic upward trend would really set us apart.

I'm not discouraging anyone, I'm just seriously asking what is keeping your optimism up.

Are most of these people who are compensating for a low GPA applying for DO schools? This I can definitely see, and you probably have a good chance at these if you really 180.

Or perhaps some of these horrendous GPA's (and trust me I have been there before) are applying for other schools (pharm, dentistry, physical therapy?) that are not as competitive as MD programs, and I'm just not reading closely?

i dont think its a matter of staying optimistic but rather a question of what do you really want? I dont think a low undergrad gpa is the end of the world to be honest and its definitely not hard to do well if you want it bad enough. Honestly, as far as giving up is concerned I think that is only an option for people who keep medicine as "one of their options". The only reason I am even replying to your post is not because I feel like I have the credentials to "prove you wrong" because im still working on that part but rather because I think its important to stress that not everyone starts off running. Some people fall a lot and then finally get up and take off. Medical school is not an unattainable thing in my opinion because its done by thousands of people every year. A GPA is definitely not going to be something that is carved in stone so really I can ask you, why not be optimistic? is being pessemistic going to get any of us low gpa ppl anywhere except falling into depression or just not being content for the rest of our lives because we "never made it"? no! so why not just buck up, get our **** in line and go for it? nothing wrong with that if you ask me. I dont know...I just think that yes SDN makes things look really complicated because people are kind enough to answer questions in a very detailed manner and therefore it looks far more complex than it really is to get into medschool (good point made by perrotfish as well).

 

[yadave]

one more question---

How do med schools look at you doing a PhD before entering? I was offered by the professor I am doing research for to join PhD in his lab. Its in Endocrinology. There is also another one I am looking at in Physiology. If I completed either one in 3 years and then applied would it enhance my app a lot or would a SMP just be the best way to go? ALso, whats the whole 3 year rule about when it comes to undergrad gpa? I have heard that they dont really look at your undergrad as closely if its been like 3 years since. If I were to do PhD for 3 years then apply would they look more heavily at my PhD?

 

[Perrotfish]

How do med schools look at you doing a PhD before entering? I was offered by the professor I am doing research for to join PhD in his lab. Its in Endocrinology. There is also another one I am looking at in Physiology. If I completed either one in 3 years and then applied would it enhance my app a lot or would a SMP just be the best way to go? ALso, whats the whole 3 year rule about when it comes to undergrad gpa? I have heard that they dont really look at your undergrad as closely if its been like 3 years since. If I were to do PhD for 3 years then apply would they look more heavily at my PhD?

I don't think anyone here has seen enough people with low GPAs do a PhD to advise you about odds. Just not enough data points. There is no 3 year rule I'm aware of, you probably are hearing something one ADCOM member said about their personal preferences, or some distorted version of the way it works in Canada. I will say that I strongly doubt you'll get a PhD in 3 years. Average time to matriculate with a PhD is now 5.5 years. 3 year grads are generally people with masters in the field, older professionals coming back for better credentials, and super genius types. If your only goal is to get into medical school, go for the SMP (or maybe just apply DO this cycle and hope for the best). If you want a research career, well then you have more of a decision to make.

 

[yadave]

I don't think anyone here has seen enough people with low GPAs do a PhD to advise you about odds. Just not enough data points. There is no 3 year rule I'm aware of, you probably are hearing something one ADCOM member said about their personal preferences, or some distorted version of the way it works in Canada. I will say that I strongly doubt you'll get a PhD in 3 years. Average time to matriculate with a PhD is now 5.5 years. 3 year grads are generally people with masters in the field, older professionals coming back for better credentials, and super genius types. If your only goal is to get into medical school, go for the SMP (or maybe just apply DO this cycle and hope for the best). If you want a research career, well then you have more of a decision to make.

I mean I love research a lot its very rewarding but I know my mind is set on med school for sure. However, I have seen some individuals go through PhD in 3 years (not sure if they were just special cases). Yea the 3 year rule thing I was also very suspicious about when I heard it so thanks for clearing that up for me. I mean I guess my biggest concern as of right now is, yea undergrad seems very important and im trying to work hard and bring it up but I also wanted to see if doing something like a PhD would enhance my chances at all. Especially in a very heavily science oriented area such as physiology or the other option. Thanks for the input though!

 

[TyrKinase]

My two cents on the PhD versus SMP: go with the SMP. Many people with sub-par GPAs have worked very hard and done well enough to continue on to medical school after an SMP. It's a well-worn path and on the outset, you can rest assured that you're doing something that will seriously help your medical school application if you do well. The PhD might help as well, but the same level of assurance (if you can call it that) isn't there and you're looking at more years before becoming an MS1 (but less cost).

Good luck!

 

[SchemeD]

im sorry i dont mean to be trolly, it's just mind boggling that in the course of 2 minutes i read a post about a near 4.0 getting rejected by lower tier med schools, and then a person with a 2.3 deciding to do a post-bac program without much of a developed plan.

im very early in my research on med-school, and only recently looked at admissions data differences between MD and DO, and after learning that, I was like "oh ok, i can see how some people pull this off"

so i was just wondering if there was another sort of blaringly obvious thing that I was overlooking. another example would be an international med school. when i learned mroe about that, i was like, ok that seems like a sensible "compromise" for some people with less than perfect track records.

It just seems like a huge gamble if you will only have a 20% chance of getting into med school to spend more tuition on a post bac program, possibly instead of working full-time for a couple years (which could be tens of thousands of dollars in salary). When you factor in DO and intl school, that picture is not as scarey, so I was just wondering if there was a 3rd significant factor or option that I was overlooking...like maybe the post bac program could count toward another related health profession like nursing or something.

 

[yadave]

im sorry i dont mean to be trolly, it's just mind boggling that in the course of 2 minutes i read a post about a near 4.0 getting rejected by lower tier med schools, and then a person with a 2.3 deciding to do a post-bac program without much of a developed plan.

im very early in my research on med-school, and only recently looked at admissions data differences between MD and DO, and after learning that, I was like "oh ok, i can see how some people pull this off"

so i was just wondering if there was another sort of blaringly obvious thing that I was overlooking. another example would be an international med school. when i learned mroe about that, i was like, ok that seems like a sensible "compromise" for some people with less than perfect track records.

It just seems like a huge gamble if you will only have a 20% chance of getting into med school to spend more tuition on a post bac program, possibly instead of working full-time for a couple years (which could be tens of thousands of dollars in salary). When you factor in DO and intl school, that picture is not as scarey, so I was just wondering if there was a 3rd significant factor or option that I was overlooking...like maybe the post bac program could count toward another related health profession like nursing or something.

I mean dont get me wrong, I clearly see the point you are making but the logic part of your argument is what I was arguing on. That logic only seems to register in the minds of individuals who can see options beyond medical school. I know many who just dont see it that way. Their only option is medical school no matter what they have to do to attain it (I being one of those people). I know it may sound a bit odd and maybe even illogical but I have been one of those people who went and got a "real job". I worked at proctor and gamble making a good salary for a year and then I realized that I was completely lying to myself. Yeah it was the practical thing to do but every day of it sucked. I wasn't doing what I knew I wanted to do. You have to make a choice and stick with it. The people who end up wasting their time are, in my opinion, the ones who just dont push hard enough. You have to pick and chose your battles in this case and decide if a 50,000+ salary a year is going to cut it for you doing whatever or if you would rather do what you need to do and get into medical school. Btw what gives you the impression that just because your friend with a 3.9 got rejected that everyone must compare to that? Its not the case at all! Many people have pulled this off. its just a graduate school program people. lets put things into perspective here lol.

 

[yadave]

My two cents on the PhD versus SMP: go with the SMP. Many people with sub-par GPAs have worked very hard and done well enough to continue on to medical school after an SMP. It's a well-worn path and on the outset, you can rest assured that you're doing something that will seriously help your medical school application if you do well. The PhD might help as well, but the same level of assurance (if you can call it that) isn't there and you're looking at more years before becoming an MS1 (but less cost).

Good luck!

yeah i see what you mean. I think ill stick with the SMP to be honest.

 

[TyrKinase]

I think the answer to your question depends on the motives and history of the individual applicant. If your intentions are right and the reasons for your sub-par undergraduate performance are both explainable and fixable, then you can certainly turn the whole thing around. If, however, you can neither explain nor fix what went wrong in the first place, you're never going to make it.

With respect to the question of changing careers: I believe that you can make it to your goal if you stick with it long enough without compromising by switching to a different (albeit related) field. While I don't have an acceptance, I do continue working towards my goal in spite of graduating with a ~2.4 science GPA nearly three years ago. It's taken a lot of hard work and while this application cycle may not work out for me, I am on one waitlist and have alternative plans for the following year.

Is it expensive, time-consuming, emotionally tolling and incredibly difficult to take three years beyond an undergraduate education in hopes of getting into medical school? Absolutely. Is it worth it? I'm banking on it (literally, given the amount of loans I have at this point).

Like Perrotfish's experience, it's been done before and it will be done again. It's just a matter of time, effort and accepting the fact that you're foregoing other options in pursuit of what you really want.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I mean I love research a lot its very rewarding but I know my mind is set on med school for sure. However, I have seen some individuals go through PhD in 3 years (not sure if they were just special cases). Yea the 3 year rule thing I was also very suspicious about when I heard it so thanks for clearing that up for me. I mean I guess my biggest concern as of right now is, yea undergrad seems very important and im trying to work hard and bring it up but I also wanted to see if doing something like a PhD would enhance my chances at all. Especially in a very heavily science oriented area such as physiology or the other option. Thanks for the input though!

I did a Ph.D. in 3.5 years before medical school, but it was torture from start to finish, I had an element of luck, and I was constitutively expressed in the lab. It was WAY more stressful than medical school, but I was also younger (28 when I started meical school). The mean time for bioscience (non-MSTP) Ph.D.'s is around 5.5 years.

 

[yadave]

I did a Ph.D. in 3.5 years before medical school, but it was torture from start to finish, I had an element of luck, and I was constitutively expressed in the lab. It was WAY more stressful than medical school, but I was also younger (28 when I started meical school). The mean time for bioscience (non-MSTP) Ph.D.'s is around 5.5 years.

yeah i mean ive talked to the PI for whom I would be applying as a PhD student and he has told me that its possible so I was really weighing the benefit of having a PhD in Endocrinology before applying. Really it just comes down to, what in the hell do i need to do to get myself into an MD school? lol. As far as research goes and how its gonna be doing a PhD: I dont think I would mind it. If anything ive realize just how badly I want to be a doctor after being able to understand and work on many of the research projects that I have ben fortunate enough to come accross. So all in all, Im happy doing whatever as long as I know its helping me advance towards medical school.But thank you for all the advice everyone. its much appreciated.

 

[yadave]

I think the answer to your question depends on the motives and history of the individual applicant. If your intentions are right and the reasons for your sub-par undergraduate performance are both explainable and fixable, then you can certainly turn the whole thing around. If, however, you can neither explain nor fix what went wrong in the first place, you're never going to make it.

With respect to the question of changing careers: I believe that you can make it to your goal if you stick with it long enough without compromising by switching to a different (albeit related) field. While I don't have an acceptance, I do continue working towards my goal in spite of graduating with a ~2.4 science GPA nearly three years ago. It's taken a lot of hard work and while this application cycle may not work out for me, I am on one waitlist and have alternative plans for the following year.

Is it expensive, time-consuming, emotionally tolling and incredibly difficult to take three years beyond an undergraduate education in hopes of getting into medical school? Absolutely. Is it worth it? I'm banking on it (literally, given the amount of loans I have at this point).

Like Perrotfish's experience, it's been done before and it will be done again. It's just a matter of time, effort and accepting the fact that you're foregoing other options in pursuit of what you really want.

did you just go back to undergrad and just take more classes? how did you go about doing your "gpa repair" work?

 

[Scottish Chap]

yeah i mean ive talked to the PI for whom I would be applying as a PhD student and he has told me that its possible so I was really weighing the benefit of having a PhD in Endocrinology before applying. Really it just comes down to, what in the hell do i need to do to get myself into an MD school? lol. As far as research goes and how its gonna be doing a PhD: I dont think I would mind it. If anything ive realize just how badly I want to be a doctor after being able to understand and work on many of the research projects that I have ben fortunate enough to come accross. So all in all, Im happy doing whatever as long as I know its helping me advance towards medical school.But thank you for all the advice everyone. its much appreciated.

Do not do a Ph.D. to appear more competitive for medical schools. If anyone has suggested that, they do not know what they are saying. A Ph.D. has marginal effect only - and that includes the research-focused med schools. Medical schools want a GPA and an MCAT score. Take more classes if you need to and try to do well, bur please stay away from a Ph.D. unless you have decided to ditch medical school and concentrate on a research career.

 

[TyrKinase]

did you just go back to undergrad and just take more classes? how did you go about doing your "gpa repair" work?

I was a social science major as an undergraduate so the majority of my coursework was not in the sciences. I did, however, complete the necessary requirements for medical school (1 year bio, 2 years chem, math, physics, etc) but got Bs and Cs. This was nothing but stupid.

After graduating, I enrolled in an informal post-bacc program at a state university and took 54 units of upper division science credits in topics that were interesting and/or "sounded impressive". I did that full time for two years and ended up with a 3.45 post-bacc science GPA but given the number of credits I already had, my BCPM didn't make enormous leaps.

 

[drizzt3117]

Honestly, I think if people are thinking about taking four years before they could potentially matriculate into med school, the Caribbean is a better option. In four years, if you worked hard, you'd be already done with med school and be applying to residency at the time that you would potentially (if everything worked out) be matriculating into med school. Yes it's a bit harder to match as a Carib grad, but with strong board scores you'd have a good shot and even if you didn't match right away and had to do a prelim year, you'd still be three years ahead of where you would have been with the other route, never mind the expense and lost future wages.

 

[DrMidlife]

I have a question...how do people with such low GPA's really expect to get into Med School?

Anybody who expects to get in with a low GPA is a fool. What we go on around here in Badnumbersland is hope and a powerful work ethic, and in many cases, a bunch of life experience that tells us that going for it is the right thing to do. And we get pretty excited when we find out that there's such a thing as an SMP, and that some SMPs put 80-90% of their students into MD schools within a year or two.

I just read about a guy from a decent top 40 undergrad college with a 3.8 overall, 3.9 science, 32 MCAT, and very good-looking EC's who has gotten rejected by about 30 med schools.

Sounds like a classic arrogance and/or immaturity story to me. Keep in mind that 60% of all applicants are rejected, and that's a well-credentialed majority. I generally fail to understand how an ordinary 21-23 year old is interesting enough to make it through a med school interview, and from what I've seen, there are hordes of ordinary 21-23 year olds who don't get in and then move onto something easier. (And then a large portion of those who do get in end up miserable, because they have no idea who they really are until it's too late.)

...it seems like a huge gamble....I'm just seriously asking what is keeping your optimism up...

The easiest way to address this is to offer you the best advice I've ever heard: "If there's anything other than medicine that you'd be happy doing, then DO THE OTHER THING."

so i was just wondering if there was another sort of blaringly obvious thing that I was overlooking.

Have you heard about SMPs?

It just seems like a huge gamble if you will only have a 20% chance of getting into med school

With perfect credentials you only have a 40% chance. Of course it's a gamble, and I think 20% is generous.

... to spend more tuition on a post bac program, possibly instead of working full-time for a couple years (which could be tens of thousands of dollars in salary).

Tens of thousands is a rounding error in this game. You can easily be a quarter million in debt on the other side of med school, and you can easily make a quarter million a year after residency. Normal financial sense doesn't apply here.

And in keeping with the spirit of this thread, feel free to give us your numbers and we'll plan your life out for you.

 

[TyrKinase]

Honestly, I think if people are thinking about taking four years before they could potentially matriculate into med school, the Caribbean is a better option. In four years, if you worked hard, you'd be already done with med school and be applying to residency at the time that you would potentially (if everything worked out) be matriculating into med school. Yes it's a bit harder to match as a Carib grad, but with strong board scores you'd have a good shot and even if you didn't match right away and had to do a prelim year, you'd still be three years ahead of where you would have been with the other route, never mind the expense and lost future wages.

You make a very good point. There are, however, some reasons that this might not be a good idea. First, whatever reason you had a poor GPA to begin with needs to be addressed. Some can successfully do this while enrolled in medical school abroad but as evidenced by the fact that there are alarming attrition rates, a great number do not. Second, you have to have an MCAT score. I knew when I graduated that I needed more time to repair my GPA and put off taking the MCAT as a result.

At the risk of sounding like I'm comparing osteopathic schools to those in the Caribbean, I will say this: it may make more sense for the applicant who has decided to go abroad to invest one year in re-taking classes in which he or she received anything below a C and then shoot for the osteopathic schools. One would be "losing" two years' worth of earnings (one year of post-bacc, one year in the app cycle) but would have time to address the reasons why he or she didn't perform as expected early on. Personally, I wish I had pursued this route more vigorously as a post-bacc but I didn't do my homework and my advisors failed to mention the beauty of the ACCOMAS GPA calculations.

 

[drizzt3117]

You make a very good point. There are, however, some reasons that this might not be a good idea. First, whatever reason you had a poor GPA to begin with needs to be addressed. Some can successfully do this while enrolled in medical school abroad but as evidenced by the fact that there are alarming attrition rates, a great number do not. Second, you have to have an MCAT score. I knew when I graduated that I needed more time to repair my GPA and put off taking the MCAT as a result.

For those who already have a MCAT (including the 3.2/25 person that I was originally referencing) I think it's a better idea to go to the Carib since they can do it immediately. The costs of two cycles worth of delay is not worth it IMO.

At the risk of sounding like I'm comparing osteopathic schools to those in the Caribbean, I will say this: it may make more sense for the applicant who has decided to go abroad to invest one year in re-taking classes in which he or she received anything below a C and then shoot for the osteopathic schools. One would be "losing" two years' worth of earnings (one year of post-bacc, one year in the app cycle) but would have time to address the reasons why he or she didn't perform as expected early on. Personally, I wish I had pursued this route more vigorously as a post-bacc but I didn't do my homework and my advisors failed to mention the beauty of the ACCOMAS GPA calculations.

That's a possibility. I think given zero difference in wait time, I would probably choose DO over Caribbean but even two years of delay would tip the scales in favor of the Caribbean for me.

 

[yadave]

For those who already have a MCAT (including the 3.2/25 person that I was originally referencing) I think it's a better idea to go to the Carib since they can do it immediately. The costs of two cycles worth of delay is not worth it IMO.



That's a possibility. I think given zero difference in wait time, I would probably choose DO over Caribbean but even two years of delay would tip the scales in favor of the Caribbean for me.

yeah but when you come out of the carribean school ive heard you are nowhere as competitive as a formal MD or even DO education so really in my opinion its not worth it unless you are desperate in terms of time and money.

Honestly, I have known a lot of people go to medschool because of that whole BS to MD nonsense they have going on and yeah I think that going into medical school at that early of an age works for some people but what is everyone's hurry?? As far as debt, you're going to be in debt ANYWAY considering the economy and the fact that a bachelors is now the new high school diploma in terms of jobs. I think people need to calm down and just take the steady route. Taking into account the magnitude of responsibility and self discipline that comes along with medicine I think its best to approach it when you are mature enough to handel the load in all ways. Just a thought.

 

[Perrotfish]

That's a possibility. I think given zero difference in wait time, I would probably choose DO over Caribbean but even two years of delay would tip the scales in favor of the Caribbean for me.

It's an odds thing. At several good Caribbean schools a significant portion of the class fails out, and half the graduates fail to match. DO schools still have close to a 100% matriculation rate and an 80% match rate. So compared to a student starting at the Caribbean, a student starting DO school can have a 3x greater chance of actually beginning a residency. So the question is how much risk 2 extra years is worth to you.

 

[drizzt3117]

It's an odds thing. At several good Caribbean schools a significant portion of the class fails out, and half the graduates fail to match. DO schools still have close to a 100% matriculation rate and an 80% match rate. So compared to a student starting at the Caribbean, a student starting DO school can have a 3x greater chance of actually beginning a residency. So the question is how much risk 2 extra years is worth to you.

I don't think that's legitimate. The percentage is based on the applicant. If you were going to get a 240+ on the USMLE you would do that whether you were at a MD school, in the caribbean, or at a DO school. I think people that would make it in med school would make it in any venue, and vice versa. A lot of people fail out of the Carib, but then again, they probably weren't people that would have been competitive for DO/MD anyways. The data I saw showed that people that entered the match from SGU last year matched 99% into US residencies. Yes they were primary care focused but so is DO, so what's the difference?

 

[phungy]

.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Can any one tell me a little about going away to a SUNY for post bacc classes? I am at hunter taking classes al la carte. I was considering going away to a SUNY and was just curious if its an option with my horrible GPA. 2.1
Would I have to apply for a second degree, with the intention of not keeping it in order to board. Can I be an informal post bacc and board.
I would much rather walk to class several times a day and be around other students, rather then travel 3 hours total on the train. I also could take more classes and bring up my GPA alot faster. I am kind of old thou.