"The Nursing Mindset"

[Psai]

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There’s always people like Psai (who goes out of his way to crap on nurses with every post he makes) who have some inferiority complex/bitterness towards nursing, and it’s best to just keep your head down and get through the process. I’ve worked with quite a few nurse-turned-doctors, and let’s just say they have a little extra insight that likely cuts down on the amount of pages they get.

I appreciate the seasoned perspective of Gonnif; that’s as close to an expert as we are going to get.

I certainly faced some negativity from coming from a nursing background (including from a Dean), but in the end the positives outweigh the negatives. There will always be haters, but that’s because they don’t have a 65k/year safety net if they take some time off or decide medicine isn’t for them. 😉

You really don't understand what an inferiority complex is. Why would I be bitter? I'm great at my job and don't really care about yours except when it hurts my patients. I also don't get pages anymore, thank god.

Holding meds due to some arbitrary parameter learned in nursing school without an order or informing the physician and this is supposedly critical thinking hahahaha

It's also really bizarre how you guys are so obsessed with your degrees that you always put them in your name, whether online or off.

-Psai, MD MPH BA high school diploma middle school grad elementary school success

 

[RNthenDoc]

You really don't understand what an inferiority complex is. Why would I be bitter? I'm great at my job and don't really care about yours except when it hurts my patients. I also don't get pages anymore, thank god.

Holding meds due to some arbitrary parameter learned in nursing school without an order or informing the physician and this is supposedly critical thinking hahahaha

It's also really bizarre how you guys are so obsessed with your degrees that you always put them in your name, whether online or off.

-Psai, MD MPH BA high school diploma middle school grad elementary school success

I’m great at my job too, which unfortunately often involves stopping folks with egos like yours from killing patients. 🙂

Like you said in the other topic, if you don’t like what i have to say you’re free to look away. You came into a thread about nursing to crap on nurses because you are a troll, and for some reason the mods don’t do anything about it.

Unfortunately for you, I’ve been trolling the internet for decades, and you can’t Triforce.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I’m great at my job too, which unfortunately often involves stopping folks with egos like yours from killing patients. 🙂

Like you said in the other topic, if you don’t like what i have to say you’re free to look away. You came into a thread about nursing to crap on nurses because you are a troll, and for some reason the mods don’t do anything about it.

Unfortunately for you, I’ve been trolling the internet for decades, and you can’t Triforce.

Eh there’s no point in getting in an argument. He’s bitter about something, and I hope he gets that figured out. Bitterness is a heavy burden. Especially when it’s to the point at attacking an entire profession. I couldn’t imagine.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Eh there’s no point in getting in an argument. He’s bitter about something, and I hope he gets that figured out. Bitterness is a heavy burden. Especially when it’s to the point at attacking an entire profession. I couldn’t imagine.

This is the nursing mindset I was referring to:

I’m great at my job too, which unfortunately often involves stopping folks with egos like yours from killing patients.

 

[Select All That Apply]

You know. For a brief second I thought that this was going to be a discussion about NANDA v. Medical diagnosis or the more interventions oriented focus that often occurs in the nursing curriculum over emphasis on understanding the underlying patho/pharma that occurs in medical school.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I’m great at my job too, which unfortunately often involves stopping folks with egos like yours from killing patients. 🙂

This is the nursing mindset lol

 

[sunshinefl]

This is the nursing mindset lol

Yeah.... not to pile on, but I cringed when I read that. I also hoped for a second it was satire since this is exactly the cliche of poor nurse-doctor relationships. (And I was/am an RN prior to medical school.)

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

aaaaand RNthenDoc just outed themselves...

 

[RNtoMD87]

I think there’s some truth to both sides. Doctors know a lot above the knowledge of nurses and consider things that we do not, and sometimes nurses do need to step in and advocate for the patient “forests for the trees” type situation.

I have seen both circumstances in my practice. It goes back to no one is better than anyone else. It’s just different types of knowledge. Spending time in anyone else’s “zone” will be a humbling experience.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

You're right, nobody is "better," than anyone else, but the knowledge base is not just "different." A physician has a dramatically stronger knowledge base from their education and experience actually treating patients. That said, thank God for good nurses that stay vigilant.

The strongest evidence I can offer on the subject is that nurses love going on about "that time," they knew better than the doctor. Doctors generally don't get off on "that time," they did the right thing. I can say from experience that Paramedics (I am one still) have the same tendency.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I value a higher level of knowledge. It is by far the primary reason I am pursing medicine. However, I still don't think it is necessarily more valuable when put into practice. Some of the most important interventions with patients are things like: keeping them turned, cough and deep breathe, eating, sleeping, etc.

I'm not arguing that the jobs are equal. A doctor deserves more pay than a nurse, and a nurse more than a CNA etc. But I really couldn't do my job well without quality CNAs. I wouldn't have time to review patient charts, etc. And its the same with quality nurses.

This is a lesson I learned in the Army. As a team leader, I was no better than the weakest link in my team. That's why I drilled them incessantly on weapons and vehicle maintenance, combat skills, PT, regulations, etc. I was even reprimanded by my Company XO for being "too hard" on them, but guess who's soldiers won Soldier of the Month boards, Scored >290 on PT scores, and were promoted ahead of peers?

Its about the team.

And every job seen as less prestigious loves to do that. I hear non surgeon physicians doing that when it comes to surgeons, RNs doing it to doctors, LPNs doing it to RNs, CNAs/Xray/etc doing it to nursing staff, etc.

People just want to feel important.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I value a higher level of knowledge. It is by far the primary reason I am pursing medicine. However, I still don't think it is necessarily more valuable when put into practice. Some of the most important interventions with patients are things like: keeping them turned, cough and deep breathe, eating, sleeping, etc.

It's definitely more valuable. I have a number of examples where having that higher level of knowledge helped or saved a patient.

Edit: Now that I read it, I don't like the term more valuable. I guess what I'm saying is that the higher level of knowledge a physician has absolutely makes a difference in patient care. It's definitely relevant.

I'm not arguing that the jobs are equal. A doctor deserves more pay than a nurse, and a nurse more than a CNA etc. But I really couldn't do my job well without quality CNAs. I wouldn't have time to review patient charts, etc. And its the same with quality nurses.

That's the point. The other roles exist because a physician can't do everything. You need someone to draw blood, run labs, change the bed, push the meds, monitor the patient, etc. etc. They're roles you can't do without.

This is a lesson I learned in the Army. As a team leader, I was no better than the weakest link in my team. That's why I drilled them incessantly on weapons and vehicle maintenance, combat skills, PT, regulations, etc. I was even reprimanded by my Company XO for being "too hard" on them, but guess who's soldiers won Soldier of the Month boards, Scored >290 on PT scores, and were promoted ahead of peers?

Its about the team.

Agreed.

And every job seen as less prestigious loves to do that. I hear non surgeon physicians doing that when it comes to surgeons, RNs doing it to doctors, LPNs doing it to RNs, CNAs/Xray/etc doing it to nursing staff, etc.

People just want to feel important.

Yep.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I’m saying the knowledge is more valuable, but the interventions are not.

Generally speaking, bedsores, mucous plugs, falls, etc will kill a patient much faster than not getting metoprolol.

It’s all important- but my point is, I don’t want the gaps in knowledge. It already bothers me that I’ve never worked as a paramedic, that is a glaring hole in my knowledge. The closest I’ve been is as a cop. I’ve been in the situations but my medical knowledge was extremely limited.

I don’t want to be that doctor that doesn’t know how to start an iv, or help turn a patient. And before someone says “you don’t need to”, my cousins wife (an HMS year 3 resident) went into a patients room and was having trouble helping get him turned, and untangled from his cords etc. The nurse was in a patients room. She grabbed me to help because she was having obvious difficulty because it’s not something she dealt with often. But there will always be situations where you’re alone and that knowledge is useful. Just like my CNAs usually clean up my patients, and do things like that, but sometimes they’re not available, and it’s my duty.

Did the same thing with my soldiers. I drilled them hard on combat lifesaver. We weren’t medics, but I knew in Iraq we may not have a medic when we needed one.

I asked my friend who is a year 3 surgical resident why he chose general surgery. He said “I want to be a complete doctor, capable of handling pretty much anything.” That’s exactly how I feel. I want to be able to handle anything at least fairly well.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I asked my friend who is a year 3 surgical resident why he chose general surgery. He said “I want to be a complete doctor, capable of handling pretty much anything.” That’s exactly how I feel. I want to be able to handle anything at least fairly well.

There’s actually a thread in the med students forum about surgeons who think they can handle medical issues as well as the medicine folks. It’s amusing.

 

[RNtoMD87]

There’s actually a thread in the med students forum about surgeons who think they can handle medical issues as well as the medicine folks. It’s amusing.

I read it, and it’s not to say they’re “as good as” but a general surgeon can probably manage diabetes much better than a hospitalist can perform a chole.

 

[Psai]

Read this thread closely medical students. This is what you're up against and these are the people who are trying to become your colleagues. Imagine the thought process of those who aren't going into medicine and have zero appreciation for your journey.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I'm imagining having people like you as my colleague. God forbid I work in a different area of medicine and lack the knowledge you have in an area. It will mean I'm stupid.

And if I had zero appreciation for the journey, I wouldn't be pursing it. I would deem it a waste of time. However, it would seem that you have no appreciation for nurses what so ever.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I read it, and it’s not
to say they’re “as good as” but a general surgeon can probably manage diabetes much better than a hospitalist can perform a chole.

I think one of the surgeons in that thread said that they obviously can’t manage medical issues chronically as good as someone who did IM or FM but can manage it acutely just fine. That seems reasonable to me.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Exactly, and that is good for me. I just want to be able to handle anything, even if I'm not the be all end all expert on it. I don't like not being able to do something at all.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Exactly, and that is good for me. I just want to be able to handle anything, even if I'm not the be all end all expert on it. I don't like not being able to do something at all.

Yeah I get that. I’m the same way.

 

[RNthenDoc]

As always, I stand by everything I’ve said.

We are all supposed to work as a team for the betterment of the patients.

In the United States we spend the absolute most money for dismal healthcare outcomes, so our primary goal should be working together to fix the issues we have, not trying to stomp on other professions because we feel threatened, and we tie so much of our ego into our careers!

 

[deleted480308]

As always, I stand by everything I’ve said.

We are all supposed to work as a team for the betterment of the patients.

In the United States we spend the absolute most money for dismal healthcare outcomes, so our primary goal should be working together to fix the issues we have, not trying to stomp on other professions because we feel threatened, and we tie so much of our ego into our careers!

how? how exactly do we work together to fix the issues?

I also think it's possible you are conflating two different issues. No one is threatened by RNs. Do you think midlevel independent practice is a good idea?

 

[RNtoMD87]

how? how exactly do we work together to fix the issues?

I also think it's possible you are conflating two different issues. No one is threatened by RNs. Do you think midlevel independent practice is a good idea?

We say that but we have a doctor who is apparently very disturbed by staff RNs to the point where he feels the need to put down on the entire profession. There’s no single profession I would put down as a whole. There’s good and bad. Cops, nurses, doctors, plumbers, engineers, etc.

 

[deleted480308]

We say that but we have a doctor who is apparently very disturbed by staff RNs to the point where he feels the need to put down on the entire profession. There’s no single profession I would put down as a whole. There’s good and bad. Cops, nurses, doctors, plumbers, engineers, etc.

despite psai using a different approach than I would, they don't seem to be saying that they are threatened by RNs at all. They don't even seem to be saying that RNs aren't useful and necessary team members

They do seem to be saying that an RN shouldn't be holding meds without telling the doc because they aren't fully qualified to be making that call (true) and that there does seem to be an anecdotal cultural difference between the number of degrees and certification abbreviations that nurses put behind their name as opposed to doctors (arguably true). I get that you think they are being abrasive and I'll even agree with you on that specific point, but it does seem like you are extrapolating that offense and responding to things that just weren't said.

I'm trying to help you when I say you will encounter some things like this on the interview trail and your reactions will be evaluated for better or worse. Memorize a couple positive sounding talking points and practice your poker face.

 

[857770]

As always, I stand by everything I’ve said.

We are all supposed to work as a team for the betterment of the patients.

In the United States we spend the absolute most money for dismal healthcare outcomes, so our primary goal should be working together to fix the issues we have, not trying to stomp on other professions because we feel threatened, and we tie so much of our ego into our careers!

Working as a team also includes recognizing that the physician leads the team. If the physician is not around, but an experienced PA is for instance (certain situations were the doctor trusts the PA), the PA becomes the leader/backup. This hardly happens, but it can. I have witnessed it.

 

[857770]

We say that but we have a doctor who is apparently very disturbed by staff RNs to the point where he feels the need to put down on the entire profession. There’s no single profession I would put down as a whole. There’s good and bad. Cops, nurses, doctors, plumbers, engineers, etc.

Noone is disturbed by staff RNs. The problem exists when RNs don't realize that the physician is the one that makes the decisions and therefore leads by doing so.

It seems to be only on SDN that RNs have this problem. In real life, I hear RNs telling patients and others, "only the doctor can answer those questions." Some will even admit to not really understanding what is going on with a patient.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

We are all a team. However, much like any team worth having each member must know their role. Further, each team needs a leader that is qualified. Much like a football team, the ball doesn't move without the lineman's block (hello nurses), but the lineman doesn't audible the play, that's the quarterback.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Noone is disturbed by staff RNs. The problem exists when RNs don't realize that the physician is the one that makes the decisions and therefore leads by doing so.

It seems to be only on SDN that RNs have this problem. In real life, I hear RNs telling patients and others, "only the doctor can answer those questions." Some will even admit to not really understanding what is going on with a patient.

Oh believe you me, I deal with this on a daily basis. Since I’m a male, patients assume I’m the doctor. Or they try to get me to tell them what they have going on based on lab work “just between me and them”

Nope. Not doing it.

About the holding meds thing, once again it’s critical thinking. And I’m always going to tell the doctor, maybe just not exactly that second. Usually it can wait until morning, and why do I think it’s fine? I’ve been doing it two years and never had a physician become upset. I tell the physician in the morning everything pertinent to that patient because why not? I mean aside from “I had to hold the metoprolol” it would be “yeah urine output was a little low.. only 20 ml per hr” or “I don’t know they’re acting differently...” whatever is important, which obviously holding any med would be.

I don’t think any nurse really thinks we understand diseases as well as a doctor, we all know they went to school for it. especially nurses on SDN, who wouldn’t want to go to med school unless they understood that.

And every time I ask an MD I work with to review my personal statement if they get time and they enthusiastically give me their cell or email, or offer to meet over dinner one day to discuss it, I feel I must be doing something right. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to help a nurse I thought of as lousy to have more authority.

 

[RNtoMD87]

despite psai using a different approach than I would, they don't seem to be saying that they are threatened by RNs at all. They don't even seem to be saying that RNs aren't useful and necessary team members

They do seem to be saying that an RN shouldn't be holding meds without telling the doc because they aren't fully qualified to be making that call (true) and that there does seem to be an anecdotal cultural difference between the number of degrees and certification abbreviations that nurses put behind their name as opposed to doctors (arguably true). I get that you think they are being abrasive and I'll even agree with you on that specific point, but it does seem like you are extrapolating that offense and responding to things that just weren't said.

I'm trying to help you when I say you will encounter some things like this on the interview trail and your reactions will be evaluated for better or worse. Memorize a couple positive sounding talking points and practice your poker face.

Oh for sure, I wouldn’t mention any of this on the interview trail. Not really smart to point out any negatives, I get that.

And no I understand those points.

Working as a team also includes recognizing that the physician leads the team. If the physician is not around, but an experienced PA is for instance (certain situations were the doctor trusts the PA), the PA becomes the leader/backup. This hardly happens, but it can. I have witnessed it.

The thing is I’ve never met an RN that would argue that point. That’s our favorite thing to say. “Above my pay grade, gotta call the doc”

The point I’m making is that nursing does require critical thinking that many other premed students may or may not have. And yes, there are idiot nurses that shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a patient, but that doesn’t mean all nurses should be seen that way. Bad apples in every profession.

It isn’t as simple as just a few protocols we have to memorize. And it annoys me to have people think the job is that simple. Without critical thinking and judgement there would be no need for intuition. “For this do this, for this do that”. That’s the biggest difference in a new nurse and an experienced one (probably pertains to doctors too).

 

[deleted480308]

Oh for sure, I wouldn’t mention any of this on the interview trail. Not really smart to point out any negatives, I get that.

And no I understand those points. I’m just

The thing is I’ve never met an RN that would argue that point. That’s our favorite thing to say. “Above my pay grade, gotta call the doc”

The point I’m making is that nursing does require critical thinking that many other premed students may or may not have. And yes, there are idiot nurses that shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a patient, but that doesn’t mean all nurses should be seen that way. Bad apples in every profession.

It isn’t as simple as just a few protocols we have to memorize. And it annoys me to have people think the job is that simple. Without critical thinking and judgement there would be no need for intuition. “For this do this, for this do that”. That’s the biggest difference in a new nurse and an experienced one (probably pertains to doctors too).

again, you are replying to things that aren't being said

 

[PepperRN]

I mean that wouldnt faire well for anyone. But I’ve heard many times about criticisms of “the nursing mindset”, which I have my idea what the nursing mindset is but I don’t understand what negative can be meant by it. I have major problems with nursing education (lack of science knowledge and disease pathology mostly) but the job itself I don’t understand an issue with it. I don’t see why being a nurse is more of a negative than being an EKG tech, scribe, phlebotomist etc.

As a student RN, this is my major issue with nursing education too. I don't want to be a doctor, but I do want to understand the pathology on a deeper level because then it helps me understand the symptoms I am seeing in the patient. For example, in class it is often presented as just a bunch of lists of S&S to remember. If we were given more of the underlying disease pathology then the S&S wouldn't be merely rote memorization - they would be obvious, and therefore easy to remember.

Nursing mindset is following rules and protocols because that's just how things are done. Very little critical thinking involved and a huge disdain for independent thought. You can explain things to them but they won't listen and keep doing things the way they were taught. What you say and what they hear are two very different things.

This is possibly true of new graduate nurses. But from what I have experienced during rotations, this is not true at all. I'm sorry you feel that way, because it is this type of alienation that creates division rather than mutual respect, and ultimately genuine teamwork for the best patient outcome. I have massive respect for the physicians (and for every specialist). I don't pretend to be anywhere near as educated as an MD, although I do hope that I can add to my nursing education through my own curiosity and desire to learn.


RE: “The nursing mindset"

Stewart (2017) notes, "Historically, nurses and physicians have been taught to communicate using styles suited to the needs and thought processes of their respective professions (Raymond & Harrison, 2014). Nurses as direct caregivers tend to communicate using a subjective, narrative style that reflects the continuous flow of information received in the performance of their daily responsibilities (Westwood et al., 2012). In contrast, physicians tend to communicate via an objective, headline approach that echoes the action-oriented method of traditional medical education in which expertise of the diagnosis and treatment of the disease demands quick action based on the objectivity of current evidence (Westwood et al., 2012)" (p. 302).


Stewart, K. R. (2017). SBAR, Communication, and Patient Safety: An Integrated Literature Review. MEDSURG Nursing, 26(5), 297-305.

Hence, from my admittedly limited experience, I would plump a guess that our communication style as nurses tends to align with our mindset, based on training an expectations of the job. It's not for me personally, but I think many nurses out there could make superb d

 

[IMGASMD]

As a student RN, this is my major issue with nursing education too. I don't want to be a doctor, but I do want to understand the pathology on a deeper level because then it helps me understand the symptoms I am seeing in the patient. For example, in class it is often presented as just a bunch of lists of S&S to remember. If we were given more of the underlying disease pathology then the S&S wouldn't be merely rote memorization - they would be obvious, and therefore easy to remember.



This is possibly true of new graduate nurses. But from what I have experienced during rotations, this is not true at all. I'm sorry you feel that way, because it is this type of alienation that creates division rather than mutual respect, and ultimately genuine teamwork for the best patient outcome. I have massive respect for the physicians (and for every specialist). I don't pretend to be anywhere near as educated as an MD, although I do hope that I can add to my nursing education through my own curiosity and desire to learn.


RE: “The nursing mindset"

Stewart (2017) notes, "Historically, nurses and physicians have been taught to communicate using styles suited to the needs and thought processes of their respective professions (Raymond & Harrison, 2014). Nurses as direct caregivers tend to communicate using a subjective, narrative style that reflects the continuous flow of information received in the performance of their daily responsibilities (Westwood et al., 2012). In contrast, physicians tend to communicate via an objective, headline approach that echoes the action-oriented method of traditional medical education in which expertise of the diagnosis and treatment of the disease demands quick action based on the objectivity of current evidence (Westwood et al., 2012)" (p. 302)..


Stewart, K. R. (2017). SBAR, Communication, and Patient Safety: An Integrated Literature Review. MEDSURG Nursing, 26(5), 297-305.

Hence, from my admittedly limited experience, I would plump a guess that our communication style as nurses tends to align with our mindset, based on training an expectations of the job. It's not for me personally, but I think many nurses out there could make superb d

Here are few points that I want to make.

1. It’s great that you want to learn, but there are many who do not, and the lowest dominator usually wins. So on average, physician knowledge will always be higher, that’s just a fact.

2. I personally cannot taking any nursing communication journal articles too seriously. I am sorry. We are trained to not even taking non-randomized trials super seriously.

3. I think we’ve all worked with good and bad people, surely. There are also good people having bad days. This thread starts by asking what physicians perceive as “nursing mindset”. It was asking for a “stereotype.” When physicians start to offer what we think it means, people (RNs) start to jump in to defend the stereotype. And of all places, this thread starts in a pre-medical school subforum. If people who wants a full fledged debate, this sub forum is not right the place.

4. I also apologize to tag your response into this. But maybe you can see my perspective a little more, hopefully you aren’t as jaded yet.

 

[857770]

We are all a team. However, much like any team worth having each member must know their role. Further, each team needs a leader that is qualified. Much like a football team, the ball doesn't move without the lineman's block (hello nurses), but the lineman doesn't audible the play, that's the quarterback.

nm

 

[RNtoMD87]

I guess I just read “nursing takes no critical thinking, it’s a job that requires no independent thought” as

“It’s a job so simple even a trained chimp could do it.”

Which therefore makes me think Psai has little experience working alongside nurses.

It’s funny, the physicians I speak to in person have a completely different opinion compared to many you find online. Most tell me not to go on here one surgeon calling it a “cancer website”.

I disagree because I’ve gotten a lot of good advice here and I have a much better understanding of the application process, but some people do seem to be cancer.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Here are few points that I want to make.

1. It’s great that you want to learn, but there are many who do not, and the lowest dominator usually wins. So on average, physician knowledge will always be higher, that’s just a fact.

2. I personally cannot taking any nursing communication journal articles too seriously. I am sorry. We are trained to not even taking non-randomized trials super seriously.

3. I think we’ve all worked with good and bad people, surely. There are also good people having bad days. This thread starts by asking what physicians perceive as “nursing mindset”. It was asking for a “stereotype.” When physicians start to offer what we think it means, people (RNs) start to jump in to defend the stereotype. And of all places, this thread starts in a pre-medical school subforum. If people who wants a full fledged debate, this sub forum is not right the place.

4. I also apologize to tag your response into this. But maybe you can see my perspective a little more, hopefully you aren’t as jaded yet.
.

I agree. I got into a discussion with my RN to BSN instructor last week about how an article we are supposed to read and complete a project on is not a valid experiment. The hypothesis was whether additional training could improve nurses recognition of patients going bad, and the method was to give a class, and afterwards have nurses self test themselves as far as how much they learned. Completely subjective, and no way to measure the experiment to tell whether the independent variable had any effect whatsoever.

Its like she never took a class in research design.



I'm personally not trying to defend nursing. I just take offense at being inferred that my job could be performed by a trained chimp. There have been VALUABLE responses about how nurses may make a connection due to experience that is usually but possibly not always correct. This made me step back and dig deeper into some patho, and it was quite constructive.


I just realized Psai has been board certified in medicine for 50 years. That makes sense to me. I know nursing and medicine was much different long ago with nurses not having near the responsibilities they have today, and having that much experience, I can see why you would have a bit of arrogance about you. Makes sense. Long as a doctor can take care of patients well, they can be as much of a jerk as they'd like. And I have respect for my elders. Godspeed Psai.

 

[PepperRN]

Here are few points that I want to make.

1. It’s great that you want to learn, but there are many who do not, and the lowest dominator usually wins. So on average, physician knowledge will always be higher, that’s just a fact.

2. I personally cannot taking any nursing communication journal articles too seriously. I am sorry. We are trained to not even taking non-randomized trials super seriously.

3. I think we’ve all worked with good and bad people, surely. There are also good people having bad days. This thread starts by asking what physicians perceive as “nursing mindset”. It was asking for a “stereotype.” When physicians start to offer what we think it means, people (RNs) start to jump in to defend the stereotype. And of all places, this thread starts in a pre-medical school subforum. If people who wants a full fledged debate, this sub forum is not right the place.

4. I also apologize to tag your response into this. But maybe you can see my perspective a little more, hopefully you aren’t as jaded yet.
.

No debate intended - I was never implying that an RNs knowledge or education is on par with a physician. I absolutely respect the enormous amount of education it takes to be an MD. I was simply agreeing with a previous poster who said she had issues with the limited pathology in nursing education. I was never comparing nursing education to that of an MD. Clearly, 2 to 4 years of RN school doesn't compare to the 8-10+ it takes to be a doctor.

I think that quote I provided was pretty good at explaining some of the difference. The training is different, so we look at the patient from a different perspective, that's all. Sorry if you felt it fell flat

I'm not jaded just yet - I'm still in school and am merely an amoeba in the medical profession. I actually only came here to get answers to my questions that I couldn't get on the nursing forum or from school.

I will say that it is a bit disappointing to read there can be such a disconnect between MDs and RNs. Maybe I'm being too idealist to think there could actually be mutual respect and admiration? I know I genuinely admire the MDs I've worked alongside during rotations. I would hope that that same respect can be extended to me as an RN...?

 

[RNtoMD87]

No debate intended - I was never implying that an RNs knowledge or education is on par with a physician. I absolutely respect the enormous amount of education it takes to be an MD. I was simply agreeing with a previous poster who said she had issues with the limited pathology in nursing education. I was never comparing nursing education to that of an MD. Clearly, 2 to 4 years of RN school doesn't compare to the 8-10+ it takes to be a doctor.

I think that quote I provided was pretty good at explaining some of the difference. The training is different, so we look at the patient from a different perspective, that's all. Sorry if you felt it fell flat

I'm not jaded just yet - I'm still in school and am merely an amoeba in the medical profession. I actually only came here to get answers to my questions that I couldn't get on the nursing forum or from school.

I will say that it is a bit disappointing to read there can be such a disconnect between MDs and RNs. Maybe I'm being too idealist to think there could actually be mutual respect and admiration? I know I genuinely admire the MDs I've worked alongside during rotations. I would hope that that same respect can be extended to me as an RN...?

Several MDs I know, including my mentor were RNs before med school. (Actually he was a CNA, LPN, RN, then MD. Is now a radiation oncologist and the patients rave about his bedside manner, and when I told him “I kind of wish I went medicine but guess it’s too late now” as a nursing student, he gave me the initial push to pursue medicine). There is much RNs and MDs can learn from one another. They are overlapping but distinctly different fields.

 

[Select All That Apply]

@sb247 You are right on the money. Lots of conflation and false equivalency in this thread. It's hard to establish a conversation on professional parity when the issue is continually being misrepresented. There was no mention of nurses being "trained chimps" nor was there a comment that merited a diagnosis of someone being cancer. With all due respect, I understand that threads like this are an attempt to bridge the gap. However, these topics are often discussed haphazardly and always by someone who has only seen one side of the fence. I noticed that even practicing physicians on this site who have been on both sides are hesitant to offer a strong commentary which I think is more insightful than any actual commentary about this matter. There can be a detailed conversation about matters of appropriate practice because it does actually happen... it's actual practice.

 

[RNtoMD87]

@sb247 You are right on the money. Lots of conflation and false equivalency in this thread. It's hard to establish a conversation on professional parity when the issue is continually being misrepresented. There was no mention of nurses being "trained chimps" nor was there a comment that merited a diagnosis of someone being cancer. With all due respect, I understand that threads like this are an attempt to bridge the gap. However, these topics are often discussed haphazardly and always by someone who has only seen one side of the fence. I noticed that even practicing physicians on this site who have been on both sides are hesitant to offer a strong commentary which I think is more insightful than any actual commentary about this matter.

I was responding to this one persons comment.

Holding meds due to some arbitrary parameter learned in nursing school without an order or informing the physician and this is supposedly critical thinking

Falsely represented in several ways. First we don't hold meds (at least experienced nurses) for "arbitrary reasons". The blood pressure med, dose, parameters, underlying issues, their previous response to the dose (or lack there of), etc is all considered. There is "critical thinking" involved.

Second, I don't "not tell the doctor". I don't call the doctor in the middle of the night. I wait until about 5 am in the morning when they make rounds (WHEN I know the doctor and that they're okay with that. Some I would call right off no matter what. Its "developing a working relationship")

And the difference is, I have no problems with people pointing out flaws in the nursing model/mindset/dogma etc. No one asked him to start attacking nurses. Every healthcare worker deserves respect. I treat the janitor with the same respect (if not more) than the CEO. Because they show me this respect.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

@RNtoMD87 yes! get more years of nursing if you want more patient care experience! and I strongly suggest you travel... honestly, it was the best year of my nursing career! You will meet so many different types of people (patients/staff members) and it is such a great learning experience 🙂.

But most importantly, whatever you do, be such a wonderful nurse and reliable team member that you will NEVER hear anyone (especially MDs) accuse you of having "the nursing mindset" 😉. And if you do hear that, just take it as a learning opportunity, do some self reflection, improve your practice, and move on.

Just remember, whether you are a RN or MD... the care you provide should always be patient centered.

PM if you have any questions about traveling .

 

[RNtoMD87]

@RNtoMD87 yes! get more years of nursing if you want more patient care experience! and I strongly suggest you travel... honestly, it was the best year of my nursing career! You will meet so many different types of people (patients/staff members) and it is such a great learning experience 🙂.

But most importantly, whatever you do, be such a wonderful nurse and reliable team member that you will NEVER hear anyone (especially MDs) accuse you of having "the nursing mindset" 😉. And if you do hear that, just take it as a learning opportunity, do some self reflection, improve your practice, and move on.

Just remember, whether you are a RN or MD... the care you provide should always be patient centered.

PM if you have any questions about traveling .

I will PM you when I get a chance.

And I only receive positive feedback from CNAs, RNs and MDs on the floor. When I first started, I was weak in my management of vents and had a weak shift report, but I hammered that weakness out.

The only time I ever receive negative feedback is on SDN.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

I will PM you when I get a chance.

And I only receive positive feedback from CNAs, RNs and MDs on the floor. When I first started, I was weak in my knowledge of vents and had a weak shift report, but I hammered that weakness out.

The only time I ever receive negative feedback is on SDN.

Meh... that's just background noise for you then from the SDN keyboard warriors dont worry about it since it doesn't apply to you 🙂. Just let your experiences, stats, LORs and character speak for you.

Remember, some people are just different and they think differently. We dont know their background story or what they went through to make them believe what they believe. And it's ok... maybe they just need a hug, a beer, a vacation, a better nursing team ... etc. I dont know. I do know that we cant control how they feel, what they say, or what they do... we can only control ourselves.

So as these young'ns say nowadays "you do you" 😀...

Enjoy your nursing life, have a pot luck at work (those "old nurses" will love you!), on your day off drink a mai tai, catch a few waves if you're next to the beach, and treasure where you are at this moment in time. When you become a doctor and get to walk in their shoes, then you can look back and reflect with your MD lenses what some of them are saying.

*cheers*

 

[RNtoMD87]

Well luckily there aren't many old nurses in the ICUs here. I'm one of the "old guys" here.

Most of the "old" nurses I see work on the medicine floors.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

Well luckily there aren't many old nurses in the ICUs here. I'm one of the "old guys" here.

Most of the "old" nurses I see work on the medicine floors.

Lol! Then all the more reason for you (being the oldest of your nursing family) to host the pot luck !

 

[RNtoMD87]

We do that for birthday parties, everybody brings food. I don't eat most of the garbage they eat. My diet is pretty strict consisting almost solely of oatmeal, sweet potatoes, eggs, lean meat, vegetables, and rice.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@sb247 You are right on the money. Lots of conflation and false equivalency in this thread. It's hard to establish a conversation on professional parity when the issue is continually being misrepresented. There was no mention of nurses being "trained chimps" nor was there a comment that merited a diagnosis of someone being cancer. With all due respect, I understand that threads like this are an attempt to bridge the gap. However, these topics are often discussed haphazardly and always by someone who has only seen one side of the fence. I noticed that even practicing physicians on this site who have been on both sides are hesitant to offer a strong commentary which I think is more insightful than any actual commentary about this matter. There can be a detailed conversation about matters of appropriate practice because it does actually happen... it's actual practice.

Did you tag me by accident and then delete it?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No debate intended - I was never implying that an RNs knowledge or education is on par with a physician. I absolutely respect the enormous amount of education it takes to be an MD. I was simply agreeing with a previous poster who said she had issues with the limited pathology in nursing education. I was never comparing nursing education to that of an MD. Clearly, 2 to 4 years of RN school doesn't compare to the 8-10+ it takes to be a doctor.

I think that quote I provided was pretty good at explaining some of the difference. The training is different, so we look at the patient from a different perspective, that's all. Sorry if you felt it fell flat

I'm not jaded just yet - I'm still in school and am merely an amoeba in the medical profession. I actually only came here to get answers to my questions that I couldn't get on the nursing forum or from school.

I will say that it is a bit disappointing to read there can be such a disconnect between MDs and RNs. Maybe I'm being too idealist to think there could actually be mutual respect and admiration? I know I genuinely admire the MDs I've worked alongside during rotations. I would hope that that same respect can be extended to me as an RN...?

I’ve worked in quite a few hospitals and settings over the last decade. The vast majority of MDs and nurses get along great. There are usually a couple nurses who are lazy and antagonistic, and there is usually one, sometimes a couple doctors who are total dicks. Everyone else gets along fine and works together great.

 

[deleted480308]

I’ve worked in quite a few hospitals and settings over the last decade. The vast majority of MDs and nurses get along great. There are usually a couple nurses who are lazy and antagonistic, and there is usually one, sometimes a couple doctors who are total dicks. Everyone else gets along fine and works together great.

Yep, and usually the docs hate that rude doc too

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yep, and usually the docs hate that rude doc too

Likewise with the nurses hating the useless nurse. We had one named Linda... travel nurse that is really gonna kill a patient. Oh and she “spoke to her dead husband” still.

Idiot went in to my patients rooms and got them all pissed off, and didn’t chart anything on her own patients. Oh and left a patients ventric off all night.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Likewise with the nurses hating the useless nurse. We had one named Linda... travel nurse that is really gonna kill a patient. Oh and she “spoke to her dead husband” still.

Idiot went in to my patients rooms and got them all pissed off, and didn’t chart anything on her own patients. Oh and left a patients ventric off all night.

Ime the lazy nurse gets all besty with the nurse manager so that they can be lazy af without any consequences.