THE SOAP 2013 Thread

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greg1184 said:
Going back to the question about reapplying to places that you didn't get an interview before. I didn't match into radiology so I had to soap. 4/5 of the programs that contacted me for an interview was those that I applied before. I ended up getting a spot in a program that I originally applied to and didn't get an interview!

Regardless, I made it! 🙂
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How did you not match into rads? I thought you had a pretty solid profile no?
 
I will be drinking heavily on Friday - whether it is alone on the sofa or out with ppl is up to YOU, SOAP. Don't promote alcoholism.
 
For any D.O's that are having trouble in the soap. There are several spots in Bluefield WV Hospital both FP and IM spots if you are interested? 🙂🙂🙂🙂

There is hope in this madness. Keep pressing on
 
IamnotFreud said:
How did you not match into rads? I thought you had a pretty solid profile no?
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This process is unpredictable. Yeah it is very disappointing I went to 11 interviews and did not match, but nevertheless, I got in somewhere.
 
I've been keeping up on this thread out of curiosity and I've noticed something that I'm wondering if anyone could shed light on:

It sounds like programs can only offer as many spots as they have unfilled per round (i.e., if Program X has two spots, then during round 1 they offered two people positions). If this is true and applicants can be offered up 30, this seems to heavily favor "good on paper" applicants and snuff those average applicants who otherwise would fit well with a program.

I guess I was under the impression that the SOAP rounds were like mini-matches with programs and applicants again making small ROLs, running the algorithm, and repeat 4 times. There is probably some logistical problems in doing it this way, but it would seem that this method would allow those with less than stellar applications at least have a shot.

Maybe I'm way off base, and I apologize if I am; but I really feel like they might be missing out on great residents this way...
 
beegeforty4 said:
I've been keeping up on this thread out of curiosity and I've noticed something that I'm wondering if anyone could shed light on:

It sounds like programs can only offer as many spots as they have unfilled per round (i.e., if Program X has two spots, then during round 1 they offered two people positions). If this is true and applicants can be offered up 30, this seems to heavily favor "good on paper" applicants and snuff those average applicants who otherwise would fit well with a program.

I guess I was under the impression that the SOAP rounds were like mini-matches with programs and applicants again making small ROLs, running the algorithm, and repeat 4 times. There is probably some logistical problems in doing it this way, but it would seem that this method would allow those with less than stellar applications at least have a shot.

Maybe I'm way off base, and I apologize if I am; but I really feel like they might be missing out on great residents this way...
Click to expand...
SOAP is not a "mini match". Instead, only programs submit lists, and as you said offers are sent to the top X people on a program's list where X = the current number of unfilled spots.

This does favor those with "better" applications. If you look at this thread, you'll see that some people got 4+ offers in the first round, then picked one and turned down the rest. Others got no offers -- but presumably might get offers in later rounds as the 1st round people reject offers. This is why the main process is run as a match -- avoiding these multiple rounds and rejections (plus avoiding the possibility that taking an offer in an early round might "lose" a better offer in a later round -- a match addresses that issue completely).

But, not always. Remember that a program's strategy in SOAP is not necessarily to rank people based upon how "good" they are (which would be the dominant strategy in a match), but rather on some combination of how good they are + how likely they are to come to that program. So, if I had one spot open and had a superstar apply for it but thought they might pick somewhere else (or another field), I might pass on them and rank someone else who I thought was more realistic -- as if I go for the superstar and they turn me down, my next pick(s) might already have accepted offers from other programs and be gone.

All that said, a SOAP like process is probably the best possible given the timeline available.
 
aProgDirector said:
But, not always. Remember that a program's strategy in SOAP is not necessarily to rank people based upon how "good" they are (which would be the dominant strategy in a match), but rather on some combination of how good they are + how likely they are to come to that program. So, if I had one spot open and had a superstar apply for it but thought they might pick somewhere else (or another field), I might pass on them and rank someone else who I thought was more realistic -- as if I go for the superstar and they turn me down, my next pick(s) might already have accepted offers from other programs and be gone.
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So, if I read you correctly, someone who is a great candidate could be just as manipulative as some of these PDs I've been reading about (present company excluded, of course!) and say to all their interviewers that they are definitely for them, and leave each PD hanging (save the one s/he picks)? Or is that more difficult to pull over on a PD because they are the ones making the initial offer?

(I know this has nothing to do with the torment a lot of these posters are going though, but I was hoping it would give some respite knowing that the BS game could be playing both ways.)
 
As the saying goes, "misery loves company".

Those of us who still haven't found a position may find "solace" from the fact that many other people are also in the same position; but the fact remains that we don't have a residency come July 1.
 
aProgDirector said:
SOAP is not a "mini match". Instead, only programs submit lists, and as you said offers are sent to the top X people on a program's list where X = the current number of unfilled spots.

This does favor those with "better" applications. If you look at this thread, you'll see that some people got 4+ offers in the first round, then picked one and turned down the rest. Others got no offers -- but presumably might get offers in later rounds as the 1st round people reject offers. This is why the main process is run as a match -- avoiding these multiple rounds and rejections (plus avoiding the possibility that taking an offer in an early round might "lose" a better offer in a later round -- a match addresses that issue completely).

But, not always. Remember that a program's strategy in SOAP is not necessarily to rank people based upon how "good" they are (which would be the dominant strategy in a match), but rather on some combination of how good they are + how likely they are to come to that program. So, if I had one spot open and had a superstar apply for it but thought they might pick somewhere else (or another field), I might pass on them and rank someone else who I thought was more realistic -- as if I go for the superstar and they turn me down, my next pick(s) might already have accepted offers from other programs and be gone.

All that said, a SOAP like process is probably the best possible given the timeline available.
Click to expand...

So essentially, these people know where they end up SOAPing into? Or is the process not over at that point in time? I am also curious about the process. Thanks aPD.
 
Knicks said:
As the saying goes, "misery loves company".

Those of us who still haven't found a position may find "solace" from the fact that many other people are also in the same position; but the fact remains that we don't have a residency come July 1.
Click to expand...

I just hope people have something to fall back on, even if it's just enough to keep bread on the table, the lights on and the space heater running. I'll probably be ok in the long run but a friend of mine from med school also SOAPed unsuccessfully and I'm not sure he'll have anything to do after this. I feel terrible for him. It sucks.
 
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beegeforty4 said:
So, if I read you correctly, someone who is a great candidate could be just as manipulative as some of these PDs I've been reading about (present company excluded, of course!) and say to all their interviewers that they are definitely for them, and leave each PD hanging (save the one s/he picks)? Or is that more difficult to pull over on a PD because they are the ones making the initial offer?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you want to look at it that way. Personally, I think that being asked the question by a PD is unacceptable in the first place, so giving them a BS answer is completely acceptable.

emboli said:
So essentially, these people know where they end up SOAPing into? Or is the process not over at that point in time? I am also curious about the process. Thanks aPD.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you match via SOAP, you know exactly where you are going. If you get offers, they are for specific programs/fields. You pick the one you want, and you're done. If you choose an Advanced spot, then you still get to choose a prelim spot (and vice versa).
 
beegeforty4 said:
I've been keeping up on this thread out of curiosity and I've noticed something that I'm wondering if anyone could shed light on:

It sounds like programs can only offer as many spots as they have unfilled per round (i.e., if Program X has two spots, then during round 1 they offered two people positions). If this is true and applicants can be offered up 30, this seems to heavily favor "good on paper" applicants and snuff those average applicants who otherwise would fit well with a program.

I guess I was under the impression that the SOAP rounds were like mini-matches with programs and applicants again making small ROLs, running the algorithm, and repeat 4 times. There is probably some logistical problems in doing it this way, but it would seem that this method would allow those with less than stellar applications at least have a shot.

Maybe I'm way off base, and I apologize if I am; but I really feel like they might be missing out on great residents this way...
Click to expand...

I think alot of programs are limiting themselves to candidates they expect to accept their offer. As APD points out, more than half the positions disappear each round. If 30 or even 10 programs compete for one candidate every round, there would be alot more than 3 rounds before almost every position disappears.
 
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emboli said:
So essentially, these people know where they end up SOAPing into? Or is the process not over at that point in time? I am also curious about the process. Thanks aPD.
Click to expand...

Yes people that SOAP know where they end up immediately. Because they have to accept the offer from a program.
 
When round 3 starts tomorrow at noon will the NRMP list be updated at noon? Or is it updated at a later time and what time would that be?
 
Aight good night guys...may tomorrow be better than today
 
Good luck tomorrow. I'm going back to my rotation tomorrow but my heart is with you guys. As bad as I felt Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday morning, I can't begin to imagine what those of you that didn't get offers today think of this stupid game being played with our futures.
 
Hey all. Just went through the soap process for the first time this year and wow was it stress inducing. I am amg, top 30 school, 240/250/P all first try. Was originally rads and had published rads research. Didn't like the work so much though so applied to cat IM. Interviewed @ 6, didn't match. Fell prey to honeyed words from pds who sent love letters and didn't interview at more. In soap only got one interview. Luckily they offered first round. Like others have said, I think the key is to convince the pd that you really would go there if they offer, because in soap every offer a program makes is limited and precious.

I really wonder what happened with the applicant pool as competitiveness seemed to skyrocket. Even the number of soap positions for many specialties seemed absurdly low.

Best of luck to those still waiting. Stay strong and don't lose hope.
 
please help. does anyone know what time the NRMP will update the list for round 3 tomorrow? or do we just take our chances at noon and hope programs are not already filled?
 
AMG. Applied to a surgical subspecialty without a backup (probably should have had a backup specialty).
 
aProgDirector said:
But, not always. Remember that a program's strategy in SOAP is not necessarily to rank people based upon how "good" they are (which would be the dominant strategy in a match), but rather on some combination of how good they are + how likely they are to come to that program. So, if I had one spot open and had a superstar apply for it but thought they might pick somewhere else (or another field), I might pass on them and rank someone else who I thought was more realistic -- as if I go for the superstar and they turn me down, my next pick(s) might already have accepted offers from other programs and be gone.

All that said, a SOAP like process is probably the best possible given the timeline available.
Click to expand...

but that doesn't deter the old scramble tactics at all from schools' PDs talking to one another. while the application process is formal, i think word of mouth still trumps everything.
 
How many hundreds/thousands will stay unmatched/unsoaped?
 
molten said:
How many hundreds/thousands will stay unmatched/unsoaped?
Click to expand...

Exactly my point! I for one will not stay silent while so many doctors are placed on the sidelines only to let nurse practitioners and PA's take over primary care! Not matching into a specialty is one thing but all qualified doctors should have a primary care residency spot to match into given that there are so many patients that are waiting to be seen! I didn't work my ***** off all these years for nothing! I'm a DOCTOR god damn it and I won't let this injustice stand and niether should you! The only way to change the system is to change the rules of the game...anybody have any powerful friends in congress that they could call up? I'm open to suggestions.
 
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changethesystem said:
Exactly my point! I for one will not stay silent while so many doctors are placed on the sidelines only to let nurse practitioners and PA's take over primary care! Not matching into a specialty is one thing but all qualified doctors should have a primary care residency spot to match into given that there are so many patients that are waiting to be seen! I didn't work my ***** off all these years for nothing! I'm a DOCTOR god damn it and I won't let this injustice stand and niether should you! The only way to change the system is to change the rules of the game...anybody have any powerful friends in congress that they could call up? I'm open to suggestions.
Click to expand...

Sorry in advance for taking this thread a bit off topic.

It's a sad time of transition in medicine indeed. We're being pressured by government cuts to ACGME funding at the top (easy solution is to let residents bill medicare at a reduced rate), and NP/PAs rising from the bottom. The mid-level societies are particularly clever in using "underserved primary care" as an in and promptly running for high-paying subspecialties in big cities. I only expect them to acquire more autonomy over time. The winds of US health care are blowing towards cheaper care for the masses rather than quality. Eventually US docs are going to be as demoralized as Germany's.

I do think we should expand residency training slots, perhaps by decoupling them from medicare funding. Also bring back GP positions with 1 year post-grad training, or have MDs without residency work in PA positions.

Sorry if my ideas here violate some unwritten rule or reignite a flame war discussion.
 
Hello everyne! I didnt match! I had 15 offers of interviews, many at really good univ programs, such as CASE, and i went to only 13- big mistake. Then i only ranked 12- bad idea! now im unmatched. I thought i do better going in the soap that taking that one spot i didnt rank and i was so confident that i didnt go to 2 of the interviews... i feel like i was hit by a bus!
so far i've had 0 offers on SOAP. I had 1 phone interview from a place that's already full. My husband and I are in major sock, don't know what to do with ourselves. I guess Im writting for some support... it's such a soul wrenching process!
how is everyone else doing? thinking of all of you and praying for the whole group!
 
No idea. i thought i would definately match and never gave a second thought about this. My advisor told me that i should look into MPH programs or do research for the year and then try again. Trying to get into anesthesiology and i still have some good options after SOAP. But this is just unbelievable. I thought if i was good enough to get 9 interviews than i should get at least one from SOAP
 
changethesystem said:
Exactly my point! I for one will not stay silent while so many doctors are placed on the sidelines only to let nurse practitioners and PA's take over primary care! Not matching into a specialty is one thing but all qualified doctors should have a primary care residency spot to match into given that there are so many patients that are waiting to be seen! I didn't work my ***** off all these years for nothing! I'm a DOCTOR god damn it and I won't let this injustice stand and niether should you! The only way to change the system is to change the rules of the game...anybody have any powerful friends in congress that they could call up? I'm open to suggestions.
Click to expand...

I'm an IMG with zero resources. But I hear you.
 
Has anyone received any calls since the 2nd cycle (5pm on Wed)? I am still trying to stay optimistic, despite the odds...

This whole process is absolutely nerve wrecking. I am at just as much of a loss as anyone else when it comes to paying off this 250k debt...
 
changethesystem said:
Exactly my point! I for one will not stay silent while so many doctors are placed on the sidelines only to let nurse practitioners and PA's take over primary care! Not matching into a specialty is one thing but all qualified doctors should have a primary care residency spot to match into given that there are so many patients that are waiting to be seen! I didn't work my ***** off all these years for nothing! I'm a DOCTOR god damn it and I won't let this injustice stand and niether should you! The only way to change the system is to change the rules of the game...anybody have any powerful friends in congress that they could call up? I'm open to suggestions.
Click to expand...

whats more frustrating is that PA and NP can work and act like a "doctor" without going through med school and taking any medical exams USMLEs, etc

while a MD cannot practice as a PA or RN/NP. the MDs have to go back to PA or RN school and take their exams, while everything they know we know and everything we know they do not know. how screw up is that.
 
MItoDCDr2009 said:
No idea. i thought i would definately match and never gave a second thought about this. My advisor told me that i should look into MPH programs or do research for the year and then try again. Trying to get into anesthesiology and i still have some good options after SOAP. But this is just unbelievable. I thought if i was good enough to get 9 interviews than i should get at least one from SOAP
Click to expand...

some options are MPH, MHA (masters in healthcare admin), MPA (master in public admin)

most of these are 2 yr programs but can generaly be done in 1 year if pushed to the limit.

bit of a background, i went thru the scramble twice, traumatized for life. ended up doing a medical/clinical/ehr consultant job and now seeking to try to get back into residency for possibly the coming ERAS season.
 
almost 9... im scared to open my NRMP and find NOTHING (like the other rounds)... got nothing! anyone got an offer?
 
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I got nothing.. onto round 4
 
what specialties did you guys apply for in SOAP (and originally)?
 
Got nothing too. I applied for anesthesiology but put in Prelim IM and surgery
 
Sorry if anyone asked this earlier, but will the list be updated at 12 as well?

This week has been the longest week ever. It's hard to explain how sad I feel inside.
 
The number of programs have not changed....so its possible no offer was extended (i know that sounds ridiculous
 
hola27 said:
The number of programs have not changed....so its possible no offer was extended (i know that sounds ridiculous
Click to expand...

That is incorrect, the list is in the process of changing, as offers are currently being accepted by those individuals who have them.
 
I am guessing it wasnt hard to get a medical consultant job.....can you send me a PM with the places you applied or you can put it here if you want thanks
 
hola27 said:
I am guessing it wasnt hard to get a medical consultant job.....can you send me a PM with the places you applied or you can put it here if you want thanks
Click to expand...

Please share if you don't mind. No offers here either and considering options for the future. Thanks.
 
id love to know as well... all of you who dont match at the end of soap, lets post next week ideas on what we might do next year... each adviser can provide different clues and we might benefit from hearing what others in our place have done/will do,
 
hola27 said:
I am guessing it wasnt hard to get a medical consultant job.....can you send me a PM with the places you applied or you can put it here if you want thanks
Click to expand...

the term consultant is used lightly and broadly. in no ways i am a consultant for the big firms. the term consultant is labelled to just about anything and can be company specific to just put a name/description on a job vacancy.

couple of things to ponder if you ended up not in clinical medicne
1. possibly go back to school and work as a PA, i ruled this out as i dont want to tack on more debts and i know i want to do more than just a PA

2. go back to school for phd and possibly teach, or get a MPH or MHA or MPA and do some hospital or healthcare admin job at hospital or government and hopefully CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

3. find a "consultant" job , likely in the field of EHR technology as a MD you have the clinical knowledge and lingo. as a "consultant" you are likely to be more like a trainer/implementation specialist meaning you will work with doctors and their staff 1-1 to train them on the technology. great networking too, i have met bunch of great doctors thru this and have no problems getting them to write me a LOR. they CANNOT write anything clinical but they all will vouch for my professionalism and character for the field of medicine.
 
okay so for the "EHR consultant job search, I guess you type in medical consulting jobs right
 
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