THE SOAP 2013 Thread

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Yeah, many people I know who didn't match before went on to do EMR consulting work. Epic is big at my school, so they work as go-live specialists helping hospitals deploying the system for the first time. The way one friend described it, the work is quite cush. He basically was given free room/board/travel expenses and worked 12 hour shifts each day for however long he wants while deployment is going on. The work was being on-call in case staff have questions. You don't have to train them as professionals do that. They just want someone who knows the lingo and can speak to MDs and other staff in their language. You're also not the final layer of support and can escalate questions if need be. Pay is anywhere from $60-$100/hour depending on your qualifications. Sometimes everything went so smoothly he just sat and studied for his step exams for the whole shift in an empty call room.

You can search for go-live work on google. Or else raingroups is a large gathering of positions in the midwest.

Alternatively, there are pharma and biotech sales/marketing jobs for MDs as well. Medical Science Liaison (MSL), basically a traveling educational rep on the company's products, is a good entry into the field as many senior positions require many years of experience on the business side of things. http://www.rxeconsult.com/articles/view.php?id=142 for more details

Finally, many wall street investment banks have transition programs for docs who want to be bankers or management consultants. They value smarts rather than business knowledge per se, so you start out as an analyst like everyone else but have an inside track to an associate role. There is a short boot camp in business since most people don't have MBAs coming in.
http://www.goldmansachs.com/what-we-do/investment-banking/industry-sectors/healthcare.html
http://www.mckinsey.com/careers/your_background/advanced_professional_degrees/medical_degree_faq
 
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Dral said:
Unless you're playing the game too, I think they meant it as "I can't believe such obviously intelligent ppl have to be put in this situation."

I think it was meant in a "good" way.
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Twas a compliment. Obviously very intelligent people getting shafted. Thats what I meant. 🙂
 
i cant imagine the final five apps being very useful. i will still do it, but im sure by now programs are still weighed down by hundreds of other apps from rounds 1-3...if our app squeaks through, it would be shocking
 
and I guess most of these places would want you to stay for a long period
 
monkeymonk said:
Yeah, many people I know who didn't match before went on to do EMR consulting work. Epic is big at my school, so they work as go-live specialists helping hospitals deploying the system for the first time. The way one friend described it, the work is quite cush. He basically was given free room/board/travel expenses and worked 12 hour shifts each day for however long he wants while deployment is going on. The work was being on-call in case staff have questions. You don't have to train them as professionals do that. They just want someone who knows the lingo and can speak to MDs and other staff in their language. You're also not the final layer of support and can escalate questions if need be. Pay is anywhere from $60-$100/hour depending on your qualifications. Sometimes everything went so smoothly he just sat and studied for his step exams for the whole shift in an empty call room.

You can search for go-live work on google. Or else raingroups is a large gathering of positions in the midwest.
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$60-100/hr?! I know board certified IM/locums working for $60/hr.
 
and I guess most of these places would want you to stay for a long period
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from what i experience, usually 6month-1 yr
some can be as short as 3 months, all depends on the project
 
Still no offers for me either.

As far as jobs, I have a lot of research experience and intend on getting a post-doc position somewhere. I'm just frustrated that board scores are such a huge determinant. I passed everything, have graduated, but its not enough...I guess. That's fine, I'm good at research and it won't hurt to get some more publications. 🙂
 
CDI said:
$60-100/hr?! I know board certified IM/locums working for $60/hr.
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yep. usually start from what i seen with just a MD and no other experience around $20/hr.
if you have some background in database, programming, understands SQL and other computer languages, and perhaps have some exp in EHR and certified for some big EHR such as epic, nextgen, allscripts, meditech, the pay can be close to $100/hr

know a lady getting paid $125/hr but she has extensive experience in allscripts acute hospital system.
 
since some were offering their 0.02 on how to improve "the system"...i offer mine...

when SOAPing/applying..i think there should be an option to waive a portion of salary...at this point im willing to waive over 50%!! 50 pack of ramen noodles only $10 at costco...b/w that and taking food from patient trays during the day, food expenses are covered.
 
HIJay said:
yep. usually start from what i seen with just a MD and no other experience around $20/hr.
if you have some background in database, programming, understands SQL and other computer languages, and perhaps have some exp in EHR and certified for some big EHR such as epic, nextgen, allscripts, meditech, the pay can be close to $100/hr

know a lady getting paid $125/hr but she has extensive experience in allscripts acute hospital system.
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Okay I am seriously considering this. Is there any other advice you can offer. Companies I should apply with, etc? New to this. Thanks in advance!
 
tachycardia44 said:
since some were offering their 0.02 on how to improve "the system"...i offer mine...

when SOAPing/applying..i think there should be an option to waive a portion of salary...at this point im willing to waive over 50%!! 50 pack of ramen noodles only $10 at costco...b/w that and taking food from patient trays during the day, food expenses are covered.
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I totally agree. At this point I have been very use to being poor. Im not necessarily asking for money in a residency position, I just want to pay my bills. I need the training. So, I agree with you.
 
HIJay said:
some options are MPH, MHA (masters in healthcare admin), MPA (master in public admin)

most of these are 2 yr programs but can generaly be done in 1 year if pushed to the limit.

bit of a background, i went thru the scramble twice, traumatized for life. ended up doing a medical/clinical/ehr consultant job and now seeking to try to get back into residency for possibly the coming ERAS season.
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this is what I'm afraid of. Being traumatized after going through this more than once. I'm an AMG, and this is my second time through SOAP. I know my chances get slimmer and slimmer as the years go on. I think this next cycle will be my last try. Besides, lots of programs don't interview people 3 years or more removed from med school, so it feels like do or die at this point. I do have one option, and that is to take Step 3, and do good on it, so that could increase my chances. I even got that vibe on interviews, that they want me to take it. I just hope it all works out this time around.
 
HIJay said:
yep. usually start from what i seen with just a MD and no other experience around $20/hr.
if you have some background in database, programming, understands SQL and other computer languages, and perhaps have some exp in EHR and certified for some big EHR such as epic, nextgen, allscripts, meditech, the pay can be close to $100/hr

know a lady getting paid $125/hr but she has extensive experience in allscripts acute hospital system.
Click to expand...

Eh? I joined raingroups to look over the latest go lives around my area and the rate there for med students was $60/hr (which is why the positions went rather quickly). It goes higher with more Epic certification and titles. Granted, the job doesn't come with benefits IIRC, and work is contractual/part time. Your earnings will depend on your willingness to hop around the country working many 12 hour shifts in a row wherever there is a go live going on.
 
Illinoisgrad said:
this is what I'm afraid of. Being traumatized after going through this more than once. I'm an AMG, and this is my second time through SOAP. I know my chances get slimmer and slimmer as the years go on. I think this next cycle will be my last try. Besides, lots of programs don't interview people 3 years or more removed from med school, so it feels like do or die at this point. I do have one option, and that is to take Step 3, and do good on it, so that could increase my chances. I even got that vibe on interviews, that they want me to take it. I just hope it all works out this time around.
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i took step 3 as well, didnt do so hot but at least i barely passed. i think i got 196/76
step 1 is 230/96, step 2 237/98 and CS pass all on 1st attempt. original specialty is EM, but will likely go for FM, peds, psych and IM for coming ERAS
 
Illinoisgrad said:
this is what I'm afraid of. Being traumatized after going through this more than once. I'm an AMG, and this is my second time through SOAP. I know my chances get slimmer and slimmer as the years go on. I think this next cycle will be my last try. Besides, lots of programs don't interview people 3 years or more removed from med school, so it feels like do or die at this point. I do have one option, and that is to take Step 3, and do good on it, so that could increase my chances. I even got that vibe on interviews, that they want me to take it. I just hope it all works out this time around.
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I know an IMG in your shoes, took step 3 this last year did well, went on over 10 interviews this year, and found out he matched on Monday. DEFINITELY TAKE STEP 3 and do well!
 
monkeymonk said:
Eh? I joined raingroups to look over the latest go lives around my area and the rate there for med students was $60/hr (which is why the positions went rather quickly). It goes higher with more Epic certification and titles. Granted, the job doesn't come with benefits IIRC, and work is contractual/part time. Your earnings will depend on your willingness to hop around the country working many 12 hour shifts in a row wherever there is a go live going on.
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nice. i am in nyc, perhaps explaining the HUGE difference in the pay rates?

everything is more expensive in NYC yet the pay remains low, as i believe there are too many applicants for the same job

i do want to move out of nyc one day. too expensive to live here
 
if anything, the addition of the 'no initiation of contact' rules only hurt some of the truly good and moral applicants

the reality is that SOAP is still very much a scramble.
 
HIJay said:
nice. i am in nyc, perhaps explaining the HUGE difference in the pay rates?

everything is more expensive in NYC yet the pay remains low, as i believe there are too many applicants for the same job

i do want to move out of nyc one day. too expensive to live here
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True true. That's the case for MD salaries as well. Desirable locations for lifestyle like NYC, Boston, west coast are all inundated with docs, so hospitals can afford to pay them 25% less. In contrast, rural Louisiana... let's just say I know a few docs who fly in for locums hospitalist work every other week because it's so lucrative.
 
halekulani said:
if anything, the addition of the 'no initiation of contact' rules only hurt some of the truly good and moral applicants

the reality is that SOAP is still very much a scramble.
Click to expand...

I feel like at this point, we should be able to contact schools who haven't initiated contact with us. I would love to at least send out an email to them. Some of my mentors would love to do so ....and it sucks that I can't.
 
hope one day one of the soap-er/scrambler from SDN becomes a PD of a program or sit in the ACGME or NRMP/ERAS board of directors and start changing the system
 
halekulani said:
if anything, the addition of the 'no initiation of contact' rules only hurt some of the truly good and moral applicants

the reality is that SOAP is still very much a scramble.
Click to expand...

Very true.

I'm trying to absorb that programs in the primary care specialty I applied to switch into would rather take someone who failed to match into some non primary care area and then applied to primary care in SOAP just to have any job over me, who took a great deal of time to make a deliberate decision to retrain, and has a proven track record of being a good resident, good scores, etc. I'd really like to know what the programs are thinking. Granted, it's gotta be overwhelming to be hit with thousands of applications. But still....
 
HIJay said:
the term consultant is used lightly and broadly. in no ways i am a consultant for the big firms. the term consultant is labelled to just about anything and can be company specific to just put a name/description on a job vacancy.

couple of things to ponder if you ended up not in clinical medicne
1. possibly go back to school and work as a PA, i ruled this out as i dont want to tack on more debts and i know i want to do more than just a PA

2. go back to school for phd and possibly teach, or get a MPH or MHA or MPA and do some hospital or healthcare admin job at hospital or government and hopefully CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

3. find a "consultant" job , likely in the field of EHR technology as a MD you have the clinical knowledge and lingo. as a "consultant" you are likely to be more like a trainer/implementation specialist meaning you will work with doctors and their staff 1-1 to train them on the technology. great networking too, i have met bunch of great doctors thru this and have no problems getting them to write me a LOR. they CANNOT write anything clinical but they all will vouch for my professionalism and character for the field of medicine.
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Excellent post. 👍
 
skatalite said:
I feel like at this point, we should be able to contact schools who haven't initiated contact with us. I would love to at least send out an email to them. Some of my mentors would love to do so ....and it sucks that I can't.
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case and point.
morally good people trying to follow the rules are only hurt by this process.

please check your PMs
 
HIJay said:
hope one day one of the soap-er/scrambler from SDN becomes a PD of a program or sit in the ACGME or NRMP/ERAS board of directors and start changing the system
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How would you change the system? You have an unequal supply and demand. Some people will not get slots.
 
Question: i tried to apply to this yrs match with an incomplete application (step 2ck and CS scores didnt come out until december, >24x on both) and am a non-us IMG, expected to graduate in may. It was not the smartest decision and now im hitting myself because even if i now re-apply this year with a 'complete' app and possible a step 3 I am afraid I won't get interviews from places I applied because its my second time around. Thoughts?
 
The SOAP list still says it was generated at 5 pm on 3-13-12. So it has not been updated since then. When should we expect a new update???????

Or should we assume the unfilled programs on it now are available for round 3 at noon?
 
first of all AMGs should have priority no matter what. for the most part these are left over spots, often in primary care.

this isn't about FMGs or IMGs being inferior in skills or intellect - that is obviously untrue with many passing the step1/2 with flying colors. there are many well qualified if not overqualified applicants who will be outstanding doctors

this is simply about protection of a country's citizens. the US market should not be obligated to be a globalized one. no other country offers such provisions for US grads. DO grads also have a huge advantage to apply in the allo match whereas AMGs are not allowed to. and finally, this is a scramble. i think there is a terrible disservice done to an AMG if he or she is unable to obtain a position esp without any red flags.
 
skatalite said:
I totally agree. At this point I have been very use to being poor. Im not necessarily asking for money in a residency position, I just want to pay my bills. I need the training. So, I agree with you.
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Believe it or not it can still be tight even with that 40-50k in residency depending on where you live. Unfortunately with continued budget constraints it may come to reducing salaries or doing away with them even further. However, I feel that this would just make it even harder for people of lesser means to go into medicine. At least there is SOME light at the end of the tunnel after 4 yrs of med school. Can you imagine if we had another 3-7 years of accumulating debt?

Survivor DO
 
DrBowtie said:
How would you change the system? You have an unequal supply and demand. Some people will not get slots.
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One way to reduce the supply of applicants would be to automatically (but silently) remove from consideration any candidate that submits their two-digit Step score.

On a more serious note, is it time to implement a two-strikes rule (or even a one-and-done rule) for the match and SOAP? Re-applicants are only exacerbating the problem for current graduates.
 
DrBowtie said:
How would you change the system? You have an unequal supply and demand. Some people will not get slots.
Click to expand...

nothing is easy, especially with our defunct healthcare system. but hoping someone, somewhere, sometime will start.

do people realize that as a doctor in US, you have everybody else's hands in the doctors pockets/wallets except the hands of the doctor. why is that?
you go thru 4 yr undergrad, 4 yr med school and then 3-7 yrs of training and have people not in medicine and with your expertise on how to practice and treat patient and how much you deserve to get paid. it is just a messed up system.

as far as residency, either government subsidize more spots which is highly unlikely, or make it straight up lassiez faire for the hospitals to hire residents directly.

they hire PA/NP with avg pay in 80-90k starting, why not hire a more qualified with more clinical background and knowledge for the same resident salary at around 40-50k starting?

the problem also lies with patients. they need to be educated about our current state of affair of healthcare. patients all think how rich a doctor makes, if they actually know how much a doctor gets paid for an office visit such as 99213, 99214 or certain procedure such a TKA or THA, they be shock.

there was an article few yrs back surveying patients and they thought medicare reimburses an ortho for TKA/THA close to 14-20k/procedure. then when they actually saw the actual medicare fee schedule it is actually only $2000, which includes 30 days post op global period.
 
HIJay said:
nothing is easy, especially with our defunct healthcare system. but hoping someone, somewhere, sometime will start.

do people realize that as a doctor in US, you have everybody else's hands in the doctors pockets/wallets except the hands of the doctor. why is that?
you go thru 4 yr undergrad, 4 yr med school and then 3-7 yrs of training and have people not in medicine and with your expertise on how to practice and treat patient and how much you deserve to get paid. it is just a messed up system.

as far as residency, either government subsidize more spots which is highly unlikely, or make it straight up lassiez faire for the hospitals to hire residents directly.

they hire PA/NP with avg pay in 80-90k starting, why not hire a more qualified with more clinical background and knowledge for the same resident salary at around 40-50k starting?

the problem also lies with patients. they need to be educated about our current state of affair of healthcare. patients all think how rich a doctor makes, if they actually know how much a doctor gets paid for an office visit such as 99213, 99214 or certain procedure such a TKA or THA, they be shock.

there was an article few yrs back surveying patients and they thought medicare reimburses an ortho for TKA/THA close to 14-20k/procedure. then when they actually saw the actual medicare fee schedule it is actually only $2000, which includes 30 days post op global period.
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None of this describes changes to the match. Those were the changes I interpreted you calling for.
 
NRMP has issued the updated list.

I'm impressed how few spots are left.

For those who will be submitting your last 5 during round 3, I sincerely wish you well 👍
 
DrBowtie said:
None of this describes changes to the match. Those were the changes I interpreted you calling for.
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as i have said, i personally think the match should be eliminated. i personally dont think why doctors are the only one who has to go thru a federally funded residency program to get licensed. this as i said will likely not happen as everything now is $$$. hospitals want the government to pay so the hospitals dont have to pay. at least in nyc, most hospitals are in the red because of the defunct insurance pay out. it is a vicious cycle. you cannot attempt to fix the match alone without fixing other parts of the system. they are all interconnected somehow, called it the holistic view of our healthcare system if you will.

all my other buddies in law, business, PA, RN, pharmacy, engineers are able to practice their field straight out of school without going thru 'the match'

as i mentioned too, patients need to be educated about PA and NP. the problem also lies that there are so many patients and the waiting time is so long some patients just dont care who they see as long as they see someone. thus excerbating the demands of PA and NP. if the patients get educated on the quality and knowledge of PA/NP vs MD/DO, it may or may not be a difference maker.

i personally would never let a paralegal or legal aide handle my law cases before a judge, why would i ever expect someone with inferior knowledge and skills to take care of my health.
 
HIJay said:
i took step 3 as well, didnt do so hot but at least i barely passed. i think i got 196/76
step 1 is 230/96, step 2 237/98 and CS pass all on 1st attempt. original specialty is EM, but will likely go for FM, peds, psych and IM for coming ERAS
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll be adding yet another specialty to my list for next year, to increase the number of interviews. I unfortunately didn't pass my first attempts on step except for CS, so I think they are looking for me to actually be able to pass on a first attempt, but doing well on it would be icing on the cake. I was planning on taking it before residency started if I got matched, and I actually thought that I'd have a damn good chance this time because I thought the majority of my interviews went very well. Now, I'm not going to rush and take it. I'll just make sure I get it done in time to have my scores back by beginning of September.

Does anyone know how long it usually takes for Step 3 scores to come back anyway? Is it the typical 3 weeks, or a little longer because of that clinical cases portion?
 
NuckingFuts said:
NRMP has issued the updated list.

I'm impressed how few spots are left.

For those who will be submitting your last 5 during round 3, I sincerely wish you well 👍
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think we all will need any luck we can get. thanks for keeping up and being nice 🙂
 
Illinoisgrad said:
Yeah, I'll be adding yet another specialty to my list for next year, to increase the number of interviews. I unfortunately didn't pass my first attempts on step except for CS, so I think they are looking for me to actually be able to pass on a first attempt, but doing well on it would be icing on the cake. I was planning on taking it before residency started if I got matched, and I actually thought that I'd have a damn good chance this time because I thought the majority of my interviews went very well. Now, I'm not going to rush and take it. I'll just make sure I get it done in time to have my scores back by beginning of September.

Does anyone know how long it usually takes for Step 3 scores to come back anyway? Is it the typical 3 weeks, or a little longer because of that clinical cases portion?
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i think mine took 3 weeks, took it during early summer not sure if that made a difference.
step 3 is hell. by the end of day 1, you just want to end it. by middle of day 2 i was about to select anything to get it over with. i feel it is more of an endurance test than anything.
 
notinkansas said:
Very true.

I'm trying to absorb that programs in the primary care specialty I applied to switch into would rather take someone who failed to match into some non primary care area and then applied to primary care in SOAP just to have any job over me, who took a great deal of time to make a deliberate decision to retrain, and has a proven track record of being a good resident, good scores, etc. I'd really like to know what the programs are thinking. Granted, it's gotta be overwhelming to be hit with thousands of applications. But still....
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wonder about that too. I would think that a PD would be fearful of the non primary care applicant wanting to leave the program after a year or two, and then have a void to try and fill later on down the road, when you could have a resident who truly wanted to have the position, but may not have superstar scores. But at least they'll probably stick with you. But I guess they really look at scores, and want to say they have some of the best and brightest working at their program
 
whats the diff between neuro a, c and r?
 
skatalite said:
Thanks. I think we all will need any luck we can get. thanks for keeping up and being nice 🙂
Click to expand...

You're very welcome.

Although I am not myself in the SOAP (way beyond that point), I mentor a subset of medical students at an allopathic med school, 2 of whom are in the SOAP (I am not a dean, just an attending who's been asked to mentor).

Anyway, I am utterly disgusted by the way this process has proceeded, but, unfortunately, this is perhaps the least worst system made available amongst perhaps a set of very bad options.

This system is intertwined with the broken healthcare system, and ultimately the downward spiraling economy- meaning, it won't be fixed anytime soon I'm afraid.

Anyway, I digress.

Best wishes to all 🙂
 
NuckingFuts said:
You're very welcome.

Although I am not myself in the SOAP (way beyond that point), I mentor a subset of medical students at an allopathic med school, 2 of whom are in the SOAP (I am not a dean, just an attending who's been asked to mentor).

Anyway, I am utterly disgusted by the way this process has proceeded, but, unfortunately, this is perhaps the least worst system made available amongst perhaps a set of very bad options.

This system is intertwined with the broken healthcare system, and ultimately the downward spiraling economy- meaning, it won't be fixed anytime soon I'm afraid.

Anyway, I digress.

Best wishes to all 🙂
Click to expand...

yep exactly my point from my previous posts on how to fix this defunct system we called healthcare.

thanks for being supportive. wish i had you as an attending when i was going through this!
 
NuckingFuts said:
You're very welcome.

Although I am not myself in the SOAP (way beyond that point), I mentor a subset of medical students at an allopathic med school, 2 of whom are in the SOAP (I am not a dean, just an attending who's been asked to mentor).

Anyway, I am utterly disgusted by the way this process has proceeded, but, unfortunately, this is perhaps the least worst system made available amongst perhaps a set of very bad options.

This system is intertwined with the broken healthcare system, and ultimately the downward spiraling economy- meaning, it won't be fixed anytime soon I'm afraid.

Anyway, I digress.

Best wishes to all 🙂
Click to expand...

One of the big issues is that the government limits the number of residency spots. We have a mismatch between the number of medical school graduates and the number of spots available because of this. With all the predictions of physician shortages, more medical schools won't help unless there are also more residency slots.
 
Y3M said:
whats the diff between neuro a, c and r?
Click to expand...

i think
a=advanced , meaning starts at pgy2 in 2014
c=categorial phy1-4 starts 2013
r=reserved, meaning for someone who already completed pgy1, starts pgy 2 this yr 2013
 
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