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The Three-Year Pharmacy Education Model- A Critical Review

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by Abilify, Nov 20, 2005.

  1. Abilify

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    I've done quite a bit of research on the concept of three-year pharmacy schools. What exactly is the benefit of a three-year school? It seems to me that the only benefit for students is to graduate a year early. While that is a noble goal and all, there seems to be a lot of cons involved with a three year school, like....

    • Sub-Standard Education: It seems to me that many of the three year schools have adopted an “Integrated Sequence” model for teaching physiology, medicinal chemistry/pharmacology and therapeutics. Almost all three-year schools operate on the quarter system, with the exception of USN and some others. It seems to me that in order to keep up with the schedule, a lot of important material is left out. Thus, students are left with the highlights of important material instead of knowing the intricate details.
    • Faculty: I’ve went and looked at many of the three-year school websites and noticed that many of the pharmacy practice professors are young and just out of their residency. I am not saying that having young professors is a bad thing, but when you have the majority of your professors coming off of their residency into your classroom, this could be a problem. The one good thing is that they will be quite familiar with concepts they learned in school. However, the bad thing is that these people will not be able to write a good test, and will not accept the fact that they don’t. This is where it is good to have experienced pharmacy practice faculty on staff.
    • Burnout Factor: It seems to me that this is a major issue among students and faculty members that doesn’t seem to happen as much at traditional schools. The students suffer burnout for the fact there is no breaks except for the week off here and there. Faculty suffers burnout from the fact they must publish in order to keep their job. It’s hard to do that when you have classroom responsibilities all year long as well as maintaining their practice site responsibilities.
    • Organizational Activity: It seems to me that this is something that is a constant challenge at most 3 year schools due to time constraints. It also doesn't help that the attitude of most students is to put in their three years and get out. That is not a good breeding ground for people that want to get involved.

    In light of these cons, what are the educational benefits by going to a three-year school other than the ability to graduate a year earlier?
     
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  3. ultracet

    ultracet 1K Member
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    it seems to me that a lot of people do it for money..... get out asap to begin making the money....

    also for convienence and families....

    as far as education goes... i don't really know as i haven't run into anyone from a 3 year school on rotations... i can only hope they are well prepared.....

    anyone know the comparison of first time pass rates on the naplex? how about the amount of time spent reviewing?

    as far as faculty... won't this be the same for any new school?


    organizational activity: haha
    that's a profession-wide problem... not just a 3 year school problem....


    but i don't have any pros to offer.... sorry
     
  4. npage148

    npage148 Senior Member
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    A couple faculty members at UB call these 3 years schools, count/pour/lick/stick school. They say they are there to fill retail vacancies. I personally dont know much about them
     
  5. ultracet

    ultracet 1K Member
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    :laugh:
    the irony is that this is in the mission statment of one of them...

    i would like to go on record saying that out of all of the 3 year programs i looked at.. and their misson statments... there was only one that said this
     
  6. Smilescali

    Smilescali Almost there...
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    The block system at USN is very interesting. Focusing on one topic at a time seems very logical to me and I feel like many students will retain more knowledge that way. The program seems more organized and the staff at USN is just awesome. However, I will admit it is probably not for everyone. I have researched many pharmacy schools and all of these "cons" are not exclusive to 3-year programs. First time Naplex pasing rate at USN is 95-97%. :thumbup:
     
  7. Abilify

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    How can you retain something when you only see it once? At other schools, you will get it 2 to 3 times before you start rotations. Also, how can you say the staff at USN is "just awesome"? What makes them "just awesome"? I think that many pharmacy schools have friendly professors that care about you, but that doesn't mean they can teach.
     
  8. Sosumi

    Sosumi Senior Member
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    At our medical school, they learn things in modules in their first 2 years... i.e., pharmacology + pathophysiology + therapeutics all at once before moving to the next module.

    They're considering doing that at our pharmacy school, but I kind of like having to review the material once again in 3rd year for therapeutics. It'd be overwhelming for me to have to learn all the drugs for pharmacology, then all of sudden having to also learn the physiology, pathophysiology, and then the therapeutic decision making all at once. I feel like I have a much better handle on the therapeutics now because we have gone over the pathophysiology and pharmacology already and so it's not completely new and thus most of us have retained more of the info.
     
  9. Smilescali

    Smilescali Almost there...
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    Like I said the block system works well for some people and not well for others. These are my opinions. I know a lot of people that are in pharmacy school all over the U.S. and the students I have talked to at USN are the only students that don't complain about their professors/ school on a regular basis. Just an observation.... All of my interactions with the STAFF at USN have been positive (I can't say the same for many other schools). The opinions regarding the professors being great have come from people who actually attend that school.

    Additionally, 3 -year programs are alternatives to the traditional 4- year programs. The main benefit is what you stated.... you graduate a year earlier.
     
  10. calrx

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    What schools website says that?
     
  11. pharmaz88

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    LOL at your faculty trying to dis other schools.

    I can't speak for any others, but MWU-CPG is actually about as anti-retail as a school can get. They'll come right out at the interview and tell you, "If you aspire to work at Walgreens, then don't come here. We're not that type of school." Then, in the curriculum, you'll get the same reinforcement of retail = evil, and clinical = next-to-godliness.

    As far as there being one less year, don't think that we spend any fewer contact hours in classes. We go straight through the summers, when 4-year schools are taking vacation, and we put in much longer hours in class during the week. You do have less overall time to study between exams, so like with USN, these programs aren't for everybody... but by no means is anyone being shorth-changed on their education. The 3-year program is accelerated, not abbreviated.
     
  12. pharmaz88

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    And there you go.

    Not every pharmacy student is an early-to-mid-20's recent grad, free of non-school obligations. Pharmacy is a popular choice as a 2nd career, especially for people who've gotten burned by offshoring. For those of us in our 30's or beyond, who might also have families at home, there's a certain appeal in not wasting an extra year in school just so we can learn at a comfortable pace.
     
  13. bananaface

    bananaface Pharmacy Supernerd
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    Do you think the age of the faculty is more related to the age of the school? Or do you notice mostly green faculty members at the more longstanding programs?
     
  14. Jeddevil

    Jeddevil Senior Member
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    What a joke. I am sure that the majority of your classmates will fill clinical pharmacy jobs instead of retail, right? The fact is that the majority of pharmacy jobs are in the retail setting so all schools are there to fill retail vacancies. But at least they had a captive audience to spread their anti-three year school drivel.

    Based on my experience on rotations and limited intern experience, you guys that want all the clinical jobs can have them. You will get no competition from me. Retail is where I am heading and look forward to doing so. Getting there in one less year works out great for my family. Preceptors I have spoken with that attended 4 year schools do not think that we are any less prepared than we would be at 4 year schools, so this inferior education crap doesn't have a lot of ground to stand on with me. We don't get summers off, we go year round still completing the same amount of coursework. I love having integrated sequence, learning about all aspects of one drug class at once. To each his own.
     
  15. Abilify

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    You would be shocked to know I attend a three year program as well. I have almost completed my didactic portion of my education and I very much feel it is abbreviated as well as accelerated. Thus, my posting of this topic
     
  16. ultracet

    ultracet 1K Member
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    since you asked........


    south
     
  17. lisi

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    Because of the block system employed by USN, it actually has MORE didactic contact hours than most 4 year schools (2020 didactic contact hours as compared to the more standard 3 or 4 year schools 1500-1600). Consequently, I don't consider it abbreviated or accelerated---just arranged differently. Experiential hours are pretty much the same. I would encourage you all not to generalize programs and not to get into the 3-year versus 4-year school battle. Pharmacy has enough problems regarding the divisions within the profession without adding another "pecking order" to the list. As for faculty attitudes about community pharmacy and bad-mouthing other schools, I would have to wonder about the professional behavior that they are supposed to modeling for their students. "Dissing" faculty/other programs/honest and necessary pharmacist worksites is not very professional.
     
  18. ultracet

    ultracet 1K Member
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    I understand that Abilify has provoked a lot of defensive posts here from you 3 year program people....

    s/he had several points... not just the one regarding the substandard education....

    what is y'all's take on the other 3...
    faculty demographics?
    burnout factor?
    organizations?

    i mean is burnout an issue at the other 3 year schools?
    are the majority of professors very young/just out of residencies?
     
  19. lord999

    Pharmacist Faculty Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Try contrasting this to a research-intensive school like Minnesota or Florida. I actually sat in a departmental meeting where the discussion turned to our department priorities. An extremely cogent argument was made for deemphasizing undergraduate education. It's not rewarding, financially or for tenure. One professor cited University of Illinois-Chicago's biopharmaceutics department for actively pushing away teaching responsibility to the practice department. Another mentioned the University of Florida's policy of separating research faculty from clinical faculty in terms of pay scales. We also are in the process of integrating medicinal chemistry and pharmacology at Minnesota. We actually are supposed to move toward an "Integrated Sequence" system.

    I counter your argument about having brand-new faculty being poorer.
    The two exceptions I know to this rule are UCSF, where Dean Koda-Kimble and Gugliemo have an extreme problem in retaining Pharm. D. faculty that actually practice for a living. I also would comment that the agreed-upon WORST professors in the Minnesota department of pharmacy practice are the "experienced" professors. Due to research away from patients, lack of clinical updating, and a lack of appreciation for what is in practice, there is an overemphasis on legacy drugs and archaic practices.

    Burnout happens more at my sort of universities than yours. After the term is over, our jobs aren't done. I actually worked much harder during the intersession than I did in session. I expect to be here finishing up grant work and paper writing during Thanksgiving and Winter Break. However, this rule holds for the tenure-track faculty. Clinical faculty are rarely judged on research; they are expected to maintain their practice. Due to most school's utilizing the year-round rotation system, there is no difference in practice maintenance from a 9-month vs. a year-round.

    Pharmacy school sucks. You just pick your poison based on what your values and chance of admission is. The only thing I regret about my education was the undue influence of ex-Arizona grads, who try to make my alma mater a research facility and fail laughably. I also am not quite set on the new leadership that's taken over the school.

    I realize that for those who haven't experienced it, it's shoddy education. I often joke that it's a "shake-and-bake" education, but that was primarily due to admissions issues. I know no benefit to either institution.
     
  20. Rfour

    Rfour Senior Member
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    Why the knock on 3 year schools? Most of what you need to know for any job is learned on the job anyway.

    As for retail vs. clinical - to each his own. But if I wanted to play make-believe doctor I would have just gone to medical school.

    I just laugh at the people who spent a year doing residency - find out that clinical sucks then end up working retail anyway. Let's see if you figure roughly the 50 grand or so they gave up for residency and invested that at a modest 7% for 30 years well hmmm you do the math... but I guess you'd make more than enough to make up for that extra year you spent at your awesome 4 year program. :laugh:
     
  21. Abilify

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    I honestly think there are some problems that need to be looked at in a 3 year curriculum, which is why I posted. I do not mean to hurt your feelings, but I wanted to take a closer look at this. What about the other three points I listed? Does that happen at USN as well? What is USN doing to counter it?
     
  22. bananaface

    bananaface Pharmacy Supernerd
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    Students at 3 year schools have less time to work during school because of the accelerated pace. In this regards, they may come out a bit greener in general than students at a 4 year school. We need competent people entering. When you are the final check, it's not an appropriate time to just be learning the ropes. The same problem happens at 4 year schools in areas without alot of local internship sites available.
     
  23. Jeddevil

    Jeddevil Senior Member
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    To answer bbmuffin's three questions:

    1. We have some young professors mixed with older, more experienced. It seems to work, but I have nothing to compare it to.

    2. I am about half way through and I am not burned out yet. I do seem to get burned out about every end of qtr before finals, but that happend even the first qtr. The break works well.

    3. Organization: I have no desire to participate in any of that stuff so it wouldn't matter if I was at a 3 or 4 year school. I have no idea how they work, just that they would take up time that I like spending at home doing something else not related to school at all. I don't think we have a huge turnout in oirganizations except for one that a bunch of the young, do-gooder, single kids like to participate in, Lambda, lambda, lambda or something. I don't need a social club.

    Take care.
     
  24. blueclassring

    blueclassring Senior Member
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    I am choosing the three year program primarily because it will allow me to get out into the workforce faster. I know this is what I want to do, and I'd rather dedicate my summers to getting finished earlier. I"m 27 and want to start making money.
     
  25. gablet

    gablet Senior Member
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    I'm wondering, if you really feel that you are not getting a quality education, what are you doing to combat it? Instead of stating reasons why all 3 year programs are inferior, maybe you could either do something to change your school or transfer to a quality school.
     
  26. Abilify

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    I think recognizing the fact there is a problem is the first step. For a long time, I felt that my school was awesome and there were no problems in our approach to education. I would not acknowledge comments from my girlfriend and friends that are student pharmacists at other pharmacy schools that my school was missing some key elements in the curriculum until recently. Maybe it’s just my school, and then again maybe its not, which is why I am exploring the issue and wanted to see what others thought.

    As I mentioned previously, I am doing research on the subject. Once I am done, I am mulling the idea of publishing something about this in AJPE depending on the results. The big thing I am noticing while researching this is the burnout factor for faculty and some students. I am not in a position at this time to open my mouth at the school in fear of retribution. As far as transferring, that is not an option at a three-year school since the curriculum is different compared to a four-year school.
     
  27. pharmchc

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    scroll down
     
  28. pharmaz88

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    1. Utterly ridiculous. Please make sure you say stuff like this in your entrance interview, so your highly advanced cognitive skills can shine through.

    2. Don't remember the name of the school that several of your friends attended?
     
  29. pharmchc

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    you brought up three great factors.
    i have two friends that are close to me who actually attend/attended the 3yr schools. well from i know and what they tell me, til this day they regret even considering applying to the 3yr school. but i can tell you my friends EAT, DRINK, SLEEP, TALK AND LIVE PHARMACY,it's a school in the east coast. Both of them were highly stressed out and my other friend in her third year tells me that people have actually had nervous breakdowns because the stress level is so high. i felt really bad for them b/c i remember they couldn't come home for breaks and I wasn't as close to them, and when they finally did call, they would pretty much tell me how much they hated the schedule and curriculum. So for all the people who are saying that they don't care how challenging or fast the school's pace is and they just want the money,, please consider what you are getting yourself into. I don't and can't understand how you can condense soooo much info in less than two years... it's pharm school w/ sooo much information to know and remember. And also pharmacy school is very expensive, which leaves a person in a 3year school to have no room to screw up. .my friend would cry after getting 1 grade less than a C, b/c she said there's no time to fail, b4 u know it, the semester/quarter or whatever they go by is almost done. I tried to tell my friend in her third year to join sdn, but she says she ain't got time for this crap..for organizations, she said there is none, there's no student activities and really no student resources b/c everyone is tooo busy with academics that no one joins. my other friend who's graduated already told me how no clinical pharmacies called for an interview or any of his friends that graduated with him,, but he had a few proposals from retail,, by the way he hates retail pharmacy... anyways,, judging from both my friends, it doesn't sound like something i would consider just to graduate a year early,, it doesn't sound worth it. So for those who are considering the 3 years, I suggest to talking with those students in the 3yr schools to get their honest opinion...it's a pharmacy school, not arts, it's gotta be twice as hard!
     
  30. pharmaz88

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    LOL. I'm someone who has posted here for several years, who has helped numerous non-trolls on this site, and whom many other posters know in real-life.

    I also am someone who knows that you are a troll. You might actually be in pharmacy school; but somehow you appear to still be at a high-school level. You have already proven yourself to be a liar by first stating that you don't remember the name of the school, and then changing your story to claim that you're not a snitch/whatever.

    My pointing-out of the flaws and discrepancies in your post was (debatably) witty and succint. Your reply, which resorts to the use of explicitives and a butchery of the English language, shows that you are utterly ill-prepared to pursue any sort of a professional career at this point in time.

    ...one more thing. If you truly are one year shy of graduation with a PharmD, and still haven't grapsed the importance of paragraph breaks in written communication, then I am truly sorry for you.


    <edit: Nice try deleting your original post. Too bad it didn't delete what was captured when I quoted you.>


    ...okay, end or retort. Sorry to all for derailing this thread.
     
  31. pharmchc

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    Oh yeah and this is a casual F-O-R-U-M , not english class.. Beyootch! PPLLEEASE do us all normal people a favor and GET A LIFE!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!
     
  32. pharmaz88

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    pharmchc,
    I could type out another reply, but you're already doing such a wonderful job of proving my point for me. Thank you.
     
  33. pharmchc

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    Hey lonely woman,, it's okay to be mad at the world....there's help for people like you. They're called psychiatrists!! :laugh:
     
  34. marx

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    Pharmchc you rock! I was laughing my pants off reading your posts. I hope my colleagues will have a personality because 'some' are sooo uptight and it makes the days go by soooo slow and work-life miserable, you know what I mean! We all know that brains get you into pharmacy school and graduation, but personality gets the you the job. So keep up the good spirit! and you are definately correct; people should loosen up a bit and that they are truly in the wrong profession if they are critical of others, others' lifestyles, way of speaking, writing and living. I admire your honesty and personality! Peace
     
  35. marx

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    What school do you attend? In our first week of school, we were taught to not judge or be critical of others. And they inflicted that upon us. You're setting yourself to be at fault if you continue to be critical of others; That's a big no-no in pharmacy and patient care. More than 50% of your patients will be the total opposite of you, your beliefs and lifestyle. You are in a profession where your personal opinion can damage your career and also the company's reputation. I hope you think before you speak or write your thoughts about others, because to many, that is considered being judgemental and critical for no obvious cause. Good luck!
     
  36. pharmaz88

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    Okay, against my better judgement, I'll bite.

    I attend MWU-CPG, as it says under my user name to the immediate left of this post.

    Thank you for the insightful lecture on no-no's and other things that were "inflicted" upon you during school. Having worked in pharmacy for several years, as well as having a previous career in finance, I can assure you that I am fully aware of the diversity of patients/clients, and that one's own opinions cannot be represented as those of the employer.

    I do not judge my patients; however I do reserve every right to comment on those who perpetuate falsehoods, or paint our profession in a negative or unprofessional color. Like it or not, a certain decorum is expected of pharmacists by the public. The use of "BEEEEEYOTCH!!!!", :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: , and assorted vulgarities does not easily fit with this model. True, this is merely an internet forum, and maybe pharmchc always acts professional in practice. ...maybe.

    Funny that you should chastise me for judging or being critical. My original post to pharmchc merely pointed out the obvious fact (and inherent sadness) that she would believe and perpetuate a completely false and baseless statement, as well as questioning her claim to not know the name of a school attended by several friends in the same field as herself. In reply, I was attacked with a barrage of nonsense, including multiple statements that would indicate an anal/scatalogical fetish.

    Thank you for your wish of "good luck". Likewise, I'm sure.

    Anyways, I'm done with this thread. Hopefully removing myself will allow it to get back on track.
     
  37. 28657

    28657 Smile like you mean it
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    Wow...SDN really has gone to $hit. And it's news to me that swearing/poor grammar, and overusage of smilies equals personality....but thanks for the update!

    RoCk On MaRx en PhARMchc ! ! U guy giv pharm. great name! ! ! :D :thumbup:

    (And no, I don't need some snide ass remark about my swearing. Cuz I'z gots personality on top of brains...yo)

    As for 3 year schools - I think the only people who could say for sure that there is a difference in the quality of graduating students are faculty that have worked for both 3 and 4 year schools. I go to a 3 year, and I am TOTALLY burned out. "Burn out" isn't a bad thing....if 3 year students really are supposed to be "retail fillers", then we wouldn't have much to be burned out about, now would we?
     
  38. bananaface

    bananaface Pharmacy Supernerd
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    Game on. :cool:

    If anyone wants any particular posts removed, just give me a holler.
     
  39. gablet

    gablet Senior Member
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    I would think a post like this (in quotes below) is inconsistant with the ideals of the profession of pharmacy and sdn. If this person (and the one who applauded him/her) is for real, our profession is severly damaged. We can have disagreements without resorting to this.

    "Like I said, you're one anal ass chic/lady/grandma or whatever you call yourself; and I don't know what kind of gratification you get from being ignorant as you are. You definately make a screwed up ass pharmacist and it sounds like you picked a wrong profession; truthfully, you sound like a lonely woman. Did someone screw you over so bad that your so angry at the world or something??!! Your choice of vocabulary is meaningless. So take my advice and go buy yourself some toys to pleasure yourself with, cuz you need it baaaddd!!! and you know you do!!! oh i forgot you're making a schedule of when you're going to take a crap!"
     
  40. Jeddevil

    Jeddevil Senior Member
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    PharmAZ knows better than to feed the trolls, but he was attacked by a real idiot troll. I don't believe a thing the trolls say. Won't even respond to such stupidity.

    3-year schools are hard and they throw a lot at you at once. If you don't think you can handle it, don't apply to one. It really is that easy.

    Thanks for banning the trolls. Those two were out of hand.
     
  41. jamboo54

    jamboo54 Member
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    Hmm maybe it might be good to get back to the original topic...


    I attend MWU-CPG and I don't feel I have the ability to compare with other schools because I have not personally attended them.

    Technically, 3 year programs are accelerated and not abbreviated (to repeat what was said before). I don't know how much other people learn at other schools so I can't really compare. I don't feel as though I'm getting a poor education though. Have to keep in mind that we go through the summers so we make up for that one lost year.

    I'm only a first year so I don't really know about the burnout factor. I've talked to many 2nd and 3rd years and none have said anything about burning out or knowing anyone that burned out. I think it really does depend on the person though. If you are intelligent and know how to manage time then you will be just fine. If you aren't that intelligent and have poor time management then you will probably burnout at any school. I will admit that I am 21 and don't really have any other responsibilities other than going to school. But I will also say that my stress level is almost negligible compared to my stress level in undergrad so far - but I also think that I was more of an over-achiever in undergrad.

    Don't know what to say about faculty. So far I think I've only met like 2-3 faculty members that seem young. The rest are older and experienced.

    If you want to be apart of organizations then there is every opportunity to do so. There are plenty of people in my class that have joined one or two professional organizations already.

    I don't get why people think that in 3 year programs people don't have time. Its not like our days are longer or weeks are longer. Its accelerated since we don't have summer vacation. So we go at the same pace, I would assume, just do it throughout the whole year instead. Also, I think there are more people with families in the accelerated programs so that may play a role in this "lack of time" everyone talks about.

    About that post that said something about how 3 year programs are there to fill retail positions. I would disagree with that because MWU-CPG is pushing clinical onto us pretty strongly. Also, even if it were true it doesn't matter because if thats what the school wants to do then thats what the school wants to do. Lot of people want to do only retail and then these schools are just perfect. Its the individuals choice whether or not they want to apply to those schools then.

    I think I'll also put a disclaimer in considering the hot environment of this thread: I didn't try to hurt or insult anyone on purpose with this post :)
     
  42. lisi

    lisi Member
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    You didn't hurt my feelings at all. What I'm trying to point out is that you can't generalize or take experiences at one pharmacy school and assume that it is the same at all pharmacy schools, regardless if they are 3-yr or 4-yr programs. Let me address all of the points you made regarding what you suspect to be true at all 3-yr pharmacy schools:

    1. Substandard curriculum: If "important" material were actually left out, ACPE would take issue with the program's curricular design. As I pointed out earlier, at USN we actually have more contact hours than in 4-yr programs. We don't use that time to try to cram more material down students' throats, but rather to provide evidenced-based educational models that involve students in their own learning and to provide constant feedback to students following assessments (also based on good assessment practices, which can be found in the educational literature). I would actually argue that many schools waste their time on unnecessary material, simply because that is what tenured faculty have taught for 20 years. Additionally, there are several ways in which the effectiveness of a curriculum can be measured. Board scores are one way (USN fares well here). Employer satisfaction surveys are another. Preceptor surveys are another. USN students have fared well in these assessments as well, comparing favorably to employers' and preceptors' comparisons to students/graduates from other programs.

    2. Faculty: At USN we have a mix of senior, midlevel, and junior faculty. More importantly, we have been successful at retaining faculty. In today's pharmacy education milieu, where the competition for good faculty is even more intense than it is for pharmacy positions, faculty turnover in established or new schools, in 3-yr or 4-yr pharmacy schools is the key issue. Like a previous poster, I also wouldn't generalize that time in service as a professor = quality teaching. Based on student evaluations, our younger faculty on the whole, receive better evals than our older faculty by a wide margin.

    3. Burnout: Our assessments of our students and faculty indicate that burnout is not an issue here. I attribute that to the block curricular design and the way in which curricular time is managed both for faculty and students in such an environment.

    4. Student Organizations: USN has had excellent participation in student organizations, both professional fraternities and in student chapters of professional pharmacy organizations. Our participation rate is currently at about 60%. Although comparative data is not yet currently available from AACP, I suspect that this compares favorably with 4-yr schools.

    Again, this reiterates my point that one should be very careful about over-generalization. It's very easy if one is dissatisfied with one's education to take the "grass must be greener" approach; however, I would suggest that to have a truly critical review, one really needs to go beyond just surface assumptions and really get into equal assessments of pharmacy program components that can be measured. In my opinion, what you'll find is that the strength of a pharmacy program cannot be so easily distilled down into whether it has adopted a 3-yr structure or a 4-yr structure. It's more complex than that and has alot to do with the commitment that faculty, students, and administration make to the education and educational processes that students experience in any program.
     
  43. Abilify

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    Thanks for the thought out response. I appreciate that!

    As far as ACPE is concerned, the school is conducting a self study at the moment for an assessment that will be happening soon. It will be interesting to see what ACPE says.

    As far as burnout, or lack of one, at USN, does USN faculty have a "get published or die" attitude for professional growth and promotion? I know that seems to be the big stressor at some of the schools I've looked into recently for faculty.

    I think it's good to have a good mix of ages teaching positions. However, I think, or at least I would think, it would be difficult to find leadership among other PP faculty if they are all the same young age. I know one issue right now is the fact they all think they can write a test, when they have never written a test in their entire lives. It has been mentioned by the higer ups (administration) about the possibility to take a course on it, but for some reason many of the pp faculty with the exception of a few took offense to it.
     
  44. fairyofsong

    fairyofsong Senior Member
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    I attend South University, a 3-year school in Georgia. I'm in my first year and have strong opinions about MY school (I can't speak for all 3 years). As far as the faculty, I cannot STRESS how privileged I feel to be in the presence of our faculty. We have an anatomy professor who was a pediatrician for some number of years. She is brilliant. Also, we have a biochem professor who went to school at John Hopkins and taught at Harvard. He has been involved with people such as Littman and Lehninger (sp?) (electron transport people). The way he teaches and involves the students is amazing--he really knows how to seem "on our level" so to speak. The faculty are so willing to help you and discourage the idea of "weeding people out".

    The curriculum is strenuous. It's totally do-able and that's what keeps our (my classmates & I) heads above water. You devote your life to school but I don't see where that is any different than a 4-year. The way I look at it, at a 4-year, you have to work hard so why not work a little harder (in a 3-yr) and get done a year sooner?

    Getting done a year sooner is the benefit. You are able to begin working sooner and get on with your life. Most of us have already spend 3-4 years in undergrad and want to be done as soon as possible.

    I do NOT feel as if we are getting "short-changed" as far as the education. I'm sure there will be comparative studies in the near future between 3 & 4yrs.. however, I seriously am pleased with my 3 year!
     
  45. ultracet

    ultracet 1K Member
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    i know you all are a new school and i was just wondering what the retention rate is so far...

    do you have a clue?
     
  46. dgroulx

    dgroulx Night Pharmacist
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    I only get two summers off in my 4-year program at UF. This equates to 6 months total summer time off in the entire 4 years, then 1 week for spring break (years 1-3) , 3 weeks for winter break (years 1-3). I know that 3-year programs have breaks inbetween their quarters. I could never understand how they made up the extra course work. I already take 8 classes at one time, so I doubt that they could pile on more.

    I realize that the accredited 3-year programs have a good enough curriculum for accreditation. It's just hard to understand how the same amount of coursework all gets crammed in.
     
  47. Abilify

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    I almost fell out of my chair reading this. I realize you feel "privileged" to be in the good graces of a pediatrician and a biochem teacher, but come on. How in the world can you know about the weeding out process that supposedly does not occur? You are a first year. How many people has SU lost in your class as well as others? It maybe something worth looking up for you.

    Again, you are in the middle of your second quarter of pharmacy school. Let me ask you something... how do you know what you are suppose to know so that you do not feel that you are getting "short-changed"? I am sure the comparative studies will be interesting...especially mine. :D
     
  48. Requiem

    Requiem Senior Member
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    Hey, genius: Get your head out of your school's ass, and stop talking as if you've experienced a 3 year school.

    You've experienced 3 months of a first year program, know nothing about 'burn out', and how can you possibly justify these ridiculous claims that it's "totally do-able" or that faculty seriously discourage "weeding-out".

    Do you know that, the reason you actually go to school is to WEED OUT THE TOP STUDENTS that will actually become pharmacists? If you get into pharmacy school but aren't able to make it, you get WEEDED OUT.

    I also like the two completely relevant anecdotal stories about your 'awesome prof.' I have a good prof, want a biography on him? he's like, toally on our level, know what i mean?
     
  49. sharktiger

    sharktiger Junior Member

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    But you also need to look at the caliber of student getting accepted

    (((SOMETHING ACPE DOES NOT LOOK INTO WHEN ...CONDUCTING)))

    The Current Pharmacy Student Profile:

    GPA 3.9 -- from a community college of 30 students class size (not from a REAL University of 500 diverse student body class size)

    Undergraduate -- no science degree or have not graduated from a college

    Pharmacy experiences -- volunteer for a few months (not getting a real pay check)

    Citizenship status -- non-US citizen...on a Student visa from another country

    English proficiency -- major accent (most likely refer than give counseling)

    _____________
    _____________
    _____________
    _____________
     
  50. pharm120

    pharm120 Member
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    Funny... I pay 100,000 dollars to LEARN. Not to be weeded out. I'm sure 100% of my classmates do the same. As soon as we are accepted into pharmacy school and as soon as they start taking our money, it becomes a business transaction and they owe us students something in return. The weeding out is supposed to stop at the application to pharmacy school process. If you can't cut it, you don't get accepted.

    Of course it doesn't always happen that way because some people refuse to study when they get accepted, but for those that do study a lot and still fail, the school is just stealing your money which borders on the line of fraud and theft.
     
  51. Abilify

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    I think you fail to understand that being a student is a privilege not a right. This goes along the same lines of student rights as well. You have no rights. period.
     

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