The Three-Year Pharmacy Education Model- A Critical Review

[bananaface]

I think you fail to understand that being a student is a privilege not a right. This goes along the same lines of student rights as well. You have no rights. period.

If it were true that students have no rights, there would be one more school in operation than there is now.

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[Requiem]

Funny... I pay 100,000 dollars to LEARN. Not to be weeded out. I'm sure 100% of my classmates do the same. As soon as we are accepted into pharmacy school and as soon as they start taking our money, it becomes a business transaction and they owe us students something in return. The weeding out is supposed to stop at the application to pharmacy school process. If you can't cut it, you don't get accepted.

Of course it doesn't always happen that way because some people refuse to study when they get accepted, but for those that do study a lot and still fail, the school is just stealing your money which borders on the line of fraud and theft.

You see, I have a very hard time coming to grips with this statement. I want to assume you're not actually this ignorant; however, you've given ample evidence to the contrary.

The only 'business transaction' is the fact you pay for credit hours, and thereby receive "instruction" on the subject.

You say "If you can't cut it, you don't get accepted." Then why the hell doesn't every single school have a 100% retention rate? Why the hell are people FORCED to WITHDRAW by the school because of their marks?

Also another statement about fraud suggests that if I accept you into my school, assuming you have the ability - but you don't "cut it" in the program, i'm thereby stealing your money? That's completely WRONG. The responsibility lies within the STUDENT. it's not the school's responsiblity to make you a pharmacist, it's your own. If you mess up, it's not fraud. It's your fault.

Weeding out, my friend, never stops occuring. Even if you as a pharmacist don't do your job well, someone else can come along and get hired for your position. Will you then blame your employer for his 'fraudulent business transaction'?

Just because you get into pharmacy school doesn't mean you'll become a pharmacist, and just because you pass the national exams doesn't mean you'll keep a job. Weeding out is LIFE.

 

[gablet]

...I am exploring the issue and wanted to see what others thought.

As I mentioned previously, I am doing research on the subject. Once I am done, I am mulling the idea of publishing something about this in AJPE depending on the results.

You are not simply "exploring the isssue." You are generalizing 3 year schools and attacking all those that disagree with you. If you are truly doing research on this subject, you would not be so defensive against the positive responses to a 3 year school.

You might get a better result (and get to the truth) if you are open to the posibility that the concept of a 3 year school can and does work. No, it is not for everyone, but it works for many. There are hundreds of capable pharmacists that come from 3 year schools. You have obviously had a bad experience at your school and want to attribute the root of the problem to being because it is a 3 year school. Try to be more open-minded and then we can have an intelligent discussion.

Or maybe you just want a particular result and are blocking all others. In your words, you want to publish, "depending on the results."

 

[Abilify]

If you are truly doing research on this subject, you would not be so defensive against the positive responses to a 3 year school.

You might get a better result (and get to the truth) if you are open to the posibility that the concept of a 3 year school can and does work. No, it is not for everyone, but it works for many. There are hundreds of capable pharmacists that come from 3 year schools. You have obviously had a bad experience at your school and want to attribute the root of the problem to being because it is a 3 year school. Try to be more open-minded and then we can have an intelligent discussion.

How am I being defensive? Critical, yes. Not defensive. I am open to the possibility of the concept working. However, some concepts of the three year program are a little flawed. That doesn't mean EVERY three year program is flawed by any means. I wouldn't go so far as to say I've had a bad experience at my school; in fact overall my experience has been quite positive. One thing that you will eventually learn when you get through didactic classes is that you can be openly critical about anything pertaining to pharmacy regardless if you like it or not. You have to be. It's your responsibility to be skeptical. If you continue to take everything at face value, you will be in for some surprises down the road.

As far as an intelligent discussion, I am begining to think that that is not possible on this issue because so many people are incredibly proud of their schools, they can not stand back and look at the program objectively. You are very similar to fairyofsong for the fact you just started your program. I realize you are incredibly proud of MWU being that you just started there, but do you really think you can answer the questions I am asking based on a quarter and a half? I am glad that lisi and lord have responded to this. Then again, they are not students. (well, lord sort of is, but he will be in school the rest of his life! )

 

[jamboo54]

Do you know that, the reason you actually go to school is to WEED OUT THE TOP STUDENTS that will actually become pharmacists? If you get into pharmacy school but aren't able to make it, you get WEEDED OUT.

Ok so i don't think you understand the definition of "weeding out". You think that if a person fails and has to drop out it's weeding out. Thats not actually true. "Weeding" is a process that schools do in order to PURPOSELY get rid of weak students. However, I'll admit that its not an official school policy or anything -people just speculate that this happens. This happens a lot in undergrad. My gen chem class was known as a weed out class. On the other hand, my ochem class was not a weed out class; however, people did fail and yes I guess technically they were "weeded out" but not to the extent of the gen chem class.

One of the first things I realized when I started pharmacy school was that the professors are not there to fail students. They want you to learn and pass the test. Professors are extremely happy when the class does extremely well on the test and the average is high 80s or something. If the test average was 80s in undergrad, professors would be angry and then make the next test harder so more students fail. So RELATIVELY, pharmacy schools do not "weed out" students like they do in undergrad.

Funny... I pay 100,000 dollars to LEARN. Not to be weeded out. I'm sure 100% of my classmates do the same. As soon as we are accepted into pharmacy school and as soon as they start taking our money, it becomes a business transaction and they owe us students something in return. The weeding out is supposed to stop at the application to pharmacy school process. If you can't cut it, you don't get accepted.

Of course it doesn't always happen that way because some people refuse to study when they get accepted, but for those that do study a lot and still fail, the school is just stealing your money which borders on the line of fraud and theft.

I agree with you completely except I think you could have worded your last statement differently to avoid all the confrontation. However, i think this whole business transaction thing this applies more with private schools than public schools. Private schools are pretty much businesses and we are their customers. Public schools get government subsidies and what not so I don't know if they are as much a business as private schools. MWU-CPG is a private school and I feel they treat students EXTREMELY well because they don't want to lose students and not have people apply in the future because then they don't make a profit.

 

[ultracet]

As far as an intelligent discussion, I am begining to think that that is not possible on this issue because so many people are incredibly proud of their schools, they can not stand back and look at the program objectively.

It really is too bad that people cannot look at their programs objectively and admit their flaws...
after all we know that EVERY program has its flaws


I have explained in another thread that people here don't like it when you post something they don't agree with.....

 

[dgroulx]

One of the first things I realized when I started pharmacy school was that the professors are not there to fail students. They want you to learn and pass the test. Professors are extremely happy when the class does extremely well on the test and the average is high 80s or something. If the test average was 80s in undergrad, professors would be angry and then make the next test harder so more students fail. So RELATIVELY, pharmacy schools do not "weed out" students like they do in undergrad.

Actually, at UF they do make the next test harder if the average is an 80. But, only if it was in a class that is supposed to be difficult. Everyone makes good grades in the easier classes like Med Chem. In reality, I think it depends on the individual professor.

The point is that you can never make generalized statements about pharmacy schools. They are all different.

 

[gablet]

It really is too bad that people cannot look at their programs objectively and admit their flaws...
after all we know that EVERY program has its flaws


I have explained in another thread that people here don't like it when you post something they don't agree with.....

So if you say something positive about your program then you are wrong?

Abilify basically wrote that 3 year schools do not provide the quality education that 4 year schools do. Then, when people posted positive things about their program, Abilify ripped them and attacked them personally. That is not an intelligent discussion. That is immaturity.

 

[gablet]

I realize you are incredibly proud of MWU being that you just started there, but do you really think you can answer the questions I am asking based on a quarter and a half?

I purposely did not comment on your questions directly because I only know 6 teachers on campus and have only been there for 11 weeks.

What I did was comment on your responses. Again, you just want a particular result and are blocking all others. In your words, you want to publish, "depending on the results."

 

[Jeddevil]

Gablet, just tell him/her what he/she wants to hear. Abilify, you are so right. We get such a crappy edumacasion here at the ole' 3- year school MWU. I feel like I am getting ripped off every day I go to class. I wish so much that I would have accepted one of my 4 invites to 4-year schools. I would have been so much better off. The only way I get through it all is by realizing that since I am in one of the hottest markets in the US, I will get paid at least as much, if not more, than all the 4 years grads nationwide with exception of californians, even though I am not learning anything.

By the way, this thread sucks as do the majority of the threads on this board the last 3 months. What happened to the entertaining and interesting Student Doctor Net?

 

[Requiem]

A lot of people who haven't even graduated high school, let alone aaccepted into pharmacy school, have been pretending to be pharmacy students.

I'm fairly confident of this, as the level of intelligence in almost every thread is so disturbingly low I question what's going on as well.

I just re-assure myself that most people here are just trolls, and then I'm semi-relieved by the state of affairs here, because if half the people actually pretending to be in pharmacy school actually are I'm scared for you Americans. The questions, opinions and ideas they present are so disturbing (i.e How much money? I just want to make 100k a year), etc that it frightens me if they're actually future pharmacists.

 

[Glycerin]

By the way, this thread sucks as do the majority of the threads on this board the last 3 months. What happened to the entertaining and interesting Student Doctor Net?

You are more than welcome to start an entertaining and/or interesting thread. No need to wait for someone else to do it.

 

[Glycerin]

A lot of people who haven't even graduated high school, let alone aaccepted into pharmacy school, have been pretending to be pharmacy students.

That's a bold statement to make without knowing the validity of it.

I just re-assure myself that most people here are just trolls, and then I'm semi-relieved by the state of affairs here, because if half the people actually pretending to be in pharmacy school actually are I'm scared for you Americans. The questions, opinions and ideas they present are so disturbing (i.e How much money? I just want to make 100k a year), etc that it frightens me if they're actually future pharmacists.

People are people are people. Some are greedy, some are not. Those who are will soon learn that money isn't everything. With regard to the many "How much money will I make?" types of threads, you can't let the ones on SDN skew your perception of Amercian pharmacists. I shouldn't need to point out that in comparison to the rest of the American pharmacy workforce, the members of the pharmacy forums here are very small in number.

 

[ultracet]

So if you say something positive about your program then you are wrong?

Abilify basically wrote that 3 year schools do not provide the quality education that 4 year schools do. Then, when people posted positive things about their program, Abilify ripped them and attacked them personally. That is not an intelligent discussion. That is immaturity.

I never said that posting something positive about your program is wrong.

What i said is that EVERY program has flaws. YOURS included *gasp*

you need to learn to admit it

i'm sure every program has positives in it as well...

As far as what Abilify has said... Yes they posted something that is not all that popular of an opinion. The best people to honestly judge the first point are those who are on rotations or have graduated from a 3 year program and i'm sure that was the intended audience...


Why has everyone neglected the other points that were brought up??????

The first person Abilify challenged spoke on the block system... they have not personally experienced it and wanted to know about knowledge retention... You yourself cannot speak on that either since you are, as you admit, 11 weeks into your program.


Abilify has not done anything but challenge your opinions and views in an attempt to get a logical explanation that can be backed up...

Seeing as how logic has run dry here... i seriously doubt any more benefit can come of this thread

 

[imperial frog]

A couple faculty members at UB call these 3 years schools, count/pour/lick/stick school.

Where does the lick come into play? Cause every time I lick the Oxy and the V when I fill them, the customers always come back and complain.

 

[Abilify]

Gablet, just tell him/her what he/she wants to hear. Abilify, you are so right. We get such a crappy edumacasion here at the ole' 3- year school MWU. I feel like I am getting ripped off every day I go to class. I wish so much that I would have accepted one of my 4 invites to 4-year schools. I would have been so much better off. The only way I get through it all is by realizing that since I am in one of the hottest markets in the US, I will get paid at least as much, if not more, than all the 4 years grads nationwide with exception of californians, even though I am not learning anything.

By the way, this thread sucks as do the majority of the threads on this board the last 3 months. What happened to the entertaining and interesting Student Doctor Net?

Yeah, that's exactly what I want to hear. What's funny is that I think of your school quite highly.

Click this thread for something entertaining....

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3136258#post3136258

 

[Trancelucent1]

Where does the lick come into play? Cause every time I lick the Oxy and the V when I fill them, the customers always come back and complain.

LOL Now that's quality entertainment.

 

[Abilify]

Where does the lick come into play? Cause every time I lick the Oxy and the V when I fill them, the customers always come back and complain.

Do you get complaints when you dispense Duragesic? I love squeezing the gel on to some bread for a snack!

 

[fairyofsong]

The PURPOSE of this post was to inform the original poster about different schools as they presented their opinion on 3 year schools. This post has become unenjoyable and harsh. I posted with the intention of informing and I feel like a couple of "professional" students have attacked my opinions and views. I said nothing to offend anyone or make anyone upset-- a few people just felt the need to oppose someone... I gues it just happened to be me.


Seriously, lets think about how we comment to people.

 

[ultracet]

Seriously, lets think about how we comment to people.

I think they were fully aware of how they were commenting to you and everyone else...

The problem comes when you made some claims about your school that people challenged and apparently you don't like that.

Pharmacy schools may still "weed out" that's a fact of life...
I really am curious at the "we don't weed out" school's retention rate.
I am serious...
do you happen to know it?

i'm glad you don't feel short changed in your brief education at your school.

Obviously there is someone out there who has felt that their education is not up to the standards of some other schools.

 

[imperial frog]

The PURPOSE of this post was to inform the original poster about different schools as they presented their opinion on 3 year schools. This post has become unenjoyable and harsh.

You do kind of control your own posts...if you think it's unenjoyable and harsh you didn't have to post it.

 

[Abilify]

I posted with the intention of informing and I feel like a couple of "professional" students have attacked my opinions and views. I said nothing to offend anyone or make anyone upset-- a few people just felt the need to oppose someone... I gues it just happened to be me.

I think the "professional" students just pointed out a major bias on your part. Don't you think you were just a tad over the top in your post?

 

[gablet]

I think the "professional" students just pointed out a major bias on your part. Don't you think you were just a tad over the top in your post?

Isn't that just the pot calling the kettle black!! What about this comment? Maybe just a little over the top!?!

"Like I said, you're one anal ass chic/lady/grandma or whatever you call yourself; and I don't know what kind of gratification you get from being ignorant as you are. You definately make a screwed up ass pharmacist and it sounds like you picked a wrong profession; truthfully, you sound like a lonely woman. Did someone screw you over so bad that your so angry at the world or something??!! Your choice of vocabulary is meaningless. So take my advice and go buy yourself some toys to pleasure yourself with, cuz you need it baaaddd!!! and you know you do!!! oh i forgot you're making a schedule of when you're going to take a crap!"

 

[pharmaz88]

"Like I said, you're one anal ass chic/lady/grandma or whatever you call yourself; and I don't know what kind of gratification you get from being ignorant as you are. You definately make a screwed up ass pharmacist and it sounds like you picked a wrong profession; truthfully, you sound like a lonely woman. Did someone screw you over so bad that your so angry at the world or something??!! Your choice of vocabulary is meaningless. So take my advice and go buy yourself some toys to pleasure yourself with, cuz you need it baaaddd!!! and you know you do!!! oh i forgot you're making a schedule of when you're going to take a crap!"

You talkin' to me??



...and to everyone else: My 3-year program can beat up your 4-year program!

 

[pharm120]

I went to UoP and I can say with great honesty that many of my fellow classmates including myself are much less prepared than the 4 year schools like UCSF.

The whole idea of seeing something once and don't remembering it is SO true. In UoP, you see almost everything once. The only thing you really see twice is the physiology aspect which doesn't help you in the pharmacy much.

UoP is like solo learning. The top 200 drugs brand and generic are only 10% of one class grades even though it is by far the most important stuff you will ever learn. And its a multiple choice test whether or not you fill the prescription or don't. So you have a 50/50 shot. Basically this leads to 90% of the class not studying it and missing half of the questions and still getting an A in the class, then graduating not knowing anything.

So based on my experience of a 3 year school, I would not recommend it. Not to mention 1 in every 6 of the 200 students who went to UoP got held back another year anyway so it ended up being the typical 4 year plan only you're paying 100,000 dollars for it.

If you don't have a choice and it is the only school you are accepted to, then go for it. But if you have other options, stay away... far away. The stress and aggrevation of not knowing anything when you go out on rotations far outweighs any benefit of graduating a year early. Plus you're paying a ton more than at a public school so its not even like you're saving much money by graduating a year early.

Oh yeah and that reply to me above about employeers weeding out people is true. But you don't pay your employeer for the right to work there. You're forgetting all about that. You pay the pharmacy school, a LOT.

 

[ultracet]

Isn't that just the pot calling the kettle black!! What about this comment? Maybe just a little over the top!?!

"Like I said, you're one anal ass chic/lady/grandma or whatever you call yourself; and I don't know what kind of gratification you get from being ignorant as you are. You definately make a screwed up ass pharmacist and it sounds like you picked a wrong profession; truthfully, you sound like a lonely woman. Did someone screw you over so bad that your so angry at the world or something??!! Your choice of vocabulary is meaningless. So take my advice and go buy yourself some toys to pleasure yourself with, cuz you need it baaaddd!!! and you know you do!!! oh i forgot you're making a schedule of when you're going to take a crap!"

Alright Rocket Scientist....

Off to school you go....

Typically when you say "pot calling the kettle black" that means that the person is denouncing (in this case Abilify saying fairy was over the top) what the other one was saying (fairy actually being over the top) when they do it too (Abilify being over the top).

To prove your point you posted a quote... When I read it I thought... That doesn't sound like Abilify.... Wonder when in the world that was said and how did I miss it...

So I looked...
oh wait...
it wasn't Abilify...
it was a troll who has been banned

sheesh....

 

[imkim01]

"1 in every 6 of the 200 students who went to UoP got held back another year anyway so it ended up being the typical 4 year plan only you're paying 100,000 dollars for it."

wow... it is surprising that the retention rate at UOP is not even 90%. Is the rate normal at 4 year schools? I heard MCPHS Worcester has 90% retention rate.

I went to UoP and I can say with great honesty that many of my fellow classmates including myself are much less prepared than the 4 year schools like UCSF.

The whole idea of seeing something once and don't remembering it is SO true. In UoP, you see almost everything once. The only thing you really see twice is the physiology aspect which doesn't help you in the pharmacy much.

UoP is like solo learning. The top 200 drugs brand and generic are only 10% of one class grades even though it is by far the most important stuff you will ever learn. And its a multiple choice test whether or not you fill the prescription or don't. So you have a 50/50 shot. Basically this leads to 90% of the class not studying it and missing half of the questions and still getting an A in the class, then graduating not knowing anything.

So based on my experience of a 3 year school, I would not recommend it. Not to mention 1 in every 6 of the 200 students who went to UoP got held back another year anyway so it ended up being the typical 4 year plan only you're paying 100,000 dollars for it.

If you don't have a choice and it is the only school you are accepted to, then go for it. But if you have other options, stay away... far away. The stress and aggrevation of not knowing anything when you go out on rotations far outweighs any benefit of graduating a year early. Plus you're paying a ton more than at a public school so its not even like you're saving much money by graduating a year early.

Oh yeah and that reply to me above about employeers weeding out people is true. But you don't pay your employeer for the right to work there. You're forgetting all about that. You pay the pharmacy school, a LOT.

 

[bananaface]

This one guy that I couldn't stand in high school said one thing of importance: "When you are in a debate, the second you get emotional, you lose. Even if you are on the right side of the argument, you lose the debate."

Maybe we should talk about issues instead of just smack talking and facing off. It would help if people who disagreed gave support for their reasoning and called upon those they disagree with them to counter in an evidence based fashion. All of this petty squabbling isn't getting the issue much further, and is bound to make enemies of those who may be allies on other fronts of discussion.

 

[dgroulx]

Maybe we should talk about issues instead of just smack talking and facing off. It would help if people who disagreed gave support for their reasoning and called upon those they disagree with them to counter in an evidence based fashion. All of this petty squabbling isn't getting the issue much further, and is bound to make enemies of those who may be allies on other fronts of discussion.

I posted a question earlier, which I thought was relevant and no one responded. I'll ask again.

It seems that 3-year schools get a 4-5 week vacation in between their quarters. It looks like they get anywhere from 12-14 weeks off in a calendar year. This equates to an entire summer off. At a 4-year school, you also get spring & winter breaks which accounts for an extra 4 weeks off. So, 3-year schools only put you in school for 4 weeks longer each year. That would equate to 3 months more total school time in 3 years. How can an entire year of pharmacy school get crammed into 3 months, which is less than one semester of school?

 

[gablet]

it wasn't Abilify...
it was a troll who has been banned

You're right, sorry Abilify.

 

[gablet]

I think to answer the original question..

1. We could start by listing the the required pre-recs for each school and then the classes that are taken in each pharmacy school.

2. Is one school better than another because it requires more classes just to get into pharmacy school? For instance, some schools may require biochemistry, but at my school we take that class in pharmacy school.

3. From what I hear (on SDN and from faculty), the NAPLEX is too easy of a test to judge the expertise of a pharmacist, but the first time passing rate for that test could be a measure of the quality of the school.

 

[bananaface]

I posted a question earlier, which I thought was relevant and no one responded. I'll ask again.

It seems that 3-year schools get a 4-5 week vacation in between their quarters. It looks like they get anywhere from 12-14 weeks off in a calendar year. This equates to an entire summer off. At a 4-year school, you also get spring & winter breaks which accounts for an extra 4 weeks off. So, 3-year schools only put you in school for 4 weeks longer each year. That would equate to 3 months more total school time in 3 years. How can an entire year of pharmacy school get crammed into 3 months, which is less than one semester of school?

I have 11 weeks of class in the fall, 10 in winter, and 11 in spring. So, I'm in school for 32 out of 52 weeks for the first 3 years, plus 8 rotations x 4 weeks each (still 32) during the 4th. That's 128 weeks of school altogether. If they are going 38-40 weeks for 3 years, they are getting 114 to 120 weeks of school. I think we should to check our estimate of time spent at the 3 year school for accuracy using a few real life setups. Maybe some people here who attend the 3 year schools can describe their curriculum hours.

 

[Abilify]

I have 11 weeks of class in the fall, 10 in winter, and 11 in spring. So, I'm in school for 32 out of 52 weeks for the first 3 years, plus 8 rotations x 4 weeks each (still 32) during the 4th. That's 128 weeks of school altogether. If they are going 38-40 weeks for 3 years, they are getting 114 to 120 weeks of school. I think we should to check our estimate of time spent at the 3 year school for accuracy using a few real life setups. Maybe some people here who attend the 3 year schools can describe their curriculum hours.

At my 3 year school, we spend 88 weeks in the class room (including finals week). We also have 38 weeks of rotations (6 @ 5 weeks per rotation and 2 @ 4 weeks per rotation) giving us 126 weeks of school altogether.

2. Is one school better than another because it requires more classes just to get into pharmacy school? For instance, some schools may require biochemistry, but at my school we take that class in pharmacy school.

That's an interesting question. On first thought, I wouldn't think so. However, if you require more science to get into pharmacy school, which some schools are doing now, you will end up with students more grounded in science. I don't know of any three year programs doing this but I know UTenn and some other 4 years are.

 

[Abilify]

It seems that 3-year schools get a 4-5 week vacation in between their quarters. It looks like they get anywhere from 12-14 weeks off in a calendar year. This equates to an entire summer off. At a 4-year school, you also get spring & winter breaks which accounts for an extra 4 weeks off. So, 3-year schools only put you in school for 4 weeks longer each year. That would equate to 3 months more total school time in 3 years. How can an entire year of pharmacy school get crammed into 3 months, which is less than one semester of school?

I don't know of any school that does 4-5 week vacations in between quarters. I know some that have one 4-5 week vacation that is also used as a remediation period if they use block scheduling.

 

[lisi]

At USN, the didactic portion of the P1 and P2 school years are each 36 weeks in length. Students are in class for 6 hours/day (8-3 with an hour off for lunch) for 9/10 days in a two week period. We've very carefully calculated the number of contact hours in the classroom recently for accreditation reports. To that end, there are 984 contact hours in the P1 year and 994 contact hours in the P2 year. There is also a short capstone didactic course that occurs during the P3 year just prior to graduation. There are 42 contact hours in this course. In total, USN's pharmacy program has 2020 didactic contact hours. Also for accreditation purposes, we compared our contact hours to both 3-yr and 4-yr programs in the western region. This was done by looking at credit hour breakdowns on their websites and converting semester or quarter credit hours to contact hours. (The conversion factors is 15 contact hours = 1 semester credit hour and 10 contact hours = 1 quarter credit hour). In total, we compared our didactic contact hours to five 4-year pharmacy programs and two 3-year pharmacy programs. For the comparator schools, the didactic contact hours ranged from a high of 1590 to a low of 1345. So even though USN has a 3 yr program, we have 430 more didactic contact hours than even the highest number of contact hours at the comparator school. Just as a reference, although we could have included more comparator schools, what I found is that most pharmacy programs average around 1500 didactic contact hours (+/- about 20 hours). Equating those additional contact hours to credit hours shows that didactically, USN has the equivalent of about 28-29 semester credit hours more or 43 quarter credit hours more. While this is not true of all 3-yr programs, it does point out that all 3-yr programs shouldn't be lumped together in comparisons to 4-yr programs.

As for experiential contact hours, USN has a total of 2000 credit hours. The typical conversion for experiential contact hours is 40 experiential contact hours (or one 40-hr week) = 1 credit hour, so USN's experiential curriculum is the equivalent of 50 weeks in length.

Our students get about 1 week off for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks off for the holidays, and a couple of days off in the spring for spring break. They also have a six-week break during the summer, unless they need to remediate didactic coursework in which they didn't achieve the 90% passing standard on an exam. The P3 experiential year starts as soon as the P2 year is completed; however, one 6-week rotation block is scheduled as an "off" block.

Students must also have a minimum of 60 additional elective didactic contact hours or 240 additional elective experiential hours.

My point is that it is possible to have a 3-yr program in which the course content isn't "lost" or "crammed" in. It can, and it does work.

I also am glad to see that this discussion has gotten to what the original posting suggested--a critical review. Any critical reveiw requires that statements be backed up with fact, so I applaud the last few posts that have begun exploring mechanisms to make evidence-based comparisons between and among programs.

 

[MutantClone]

Just wanted to make a comment about faculty @ 3 yr schools.

The reason why you see many clinical faculty at these schools being so young and fresh out of their training is because they are more open to doing things in a different way.

Can you imagine being a faculty member at a 4 year school, where you have been for 10 years then interviewing somewhere and they tell you, "oh, by the way, we're only a 3 year school, hope you don't have a problem with that".

I'm sure many of you have seen the old, set in their ways faculty members. It takes someone that is open to new ideas and different ways of doing things to take the risk in joining a 3 year program.

Additionally, as far as the clinical side goes, younger faculty are (in general) more current on their therapeutics. Instead of older faculty who may still be teaching that nitrogen mustard is still the drug of choice for hodgkin's disease, you'll get someone who knows that things have changed in the last decade.

 

[Abilify]

At USN, the didactic portion of the P1 and P2 school years are each 36 weeks in length. Students are in class for 6 hours/day (8-3 with an hour off for lunch) for 9/10 days in a two week period. We've very carefully calculated the number of contact hours in the classroom recently for accreditation reports. To that end, there are 984 contact hours in the P1 year and 994 contact hours in the P2 year. There is also a short capstone didactic course that occurs during the P3 year just prior to graduation. There are 42 contact hours in this course. In total, USN's pharmacy program has 2020 didactic contact hours. Also for accreditation purposes, we compared our contact hours to both 3-yr and 4-yr programs in the western region. This was done by looking at credit hour breakdowns on their websites and converting semester or quarter credit hours to contact hours. (The conversion factors is 15 contact hours = 1 semester credit hour and 10 contact hours = 1 quarter credit hour). In total, we compared our didactic contact hours to five 4-year pharmacy programs and two 3-year pharmacy programs. For the comparator schools, the didactic contact hours ranged from a high of 1590 to a low of 1345. So even though USN has a 3 yr program, we have 430 more didactic contact hours than even the highest number of contact hours at the comparator school. Just as a reference, although we could have included more comparator schools, what I found is that most pharmacy programs average around 1500 didactic contact hours (+/- about 20 hours). Equating those additional contact hours to credit hours shows that didactically, USN has the equivalent of about 28-29 semester credit hours more or 43 quarter credit hours more. While this is not true of all 3-yr programs, it does point out that all 3-yr programs shouldn't be lumped together in comparisons to 4-yr programs.

As for experiential contact hours, USN has a total of 2000 credit hours. The typical conversion for experiential contact hours is 40 experiential contact hours (or one 40-hr week) = 1 credit hour, so USN's experiential curriculum is the equivalent of 50 weeks in length.

Our students get about 1 week off for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks off for the holidays, and a couple of days off in the spring for spring break. They also have a six-week break during the summer, unless they need to remediate didactic coursework in which they didn't achieve the 90% passing standard on an exam. The P3 experiential year starts as soon as the P2 year is completed; however, one 6-week rotation block is scheduled as an "off" block.

Students must also have a minimum of 60 additional elective didactic contact hours or 240 additional elective experiential hours.

My point is that it is possible to have a 3-yr program in which the course content isn't "lost" or "crammed" in. It can, and it does work.

I also am glad to see that this discussion has gotten to what the original posting suggested--a critical review. Any critical reveiw requires that statements be backed up with fact, so I applaud the last few posts that have begun exploring mechanisms to make evidence-based comparisons between and among programs.

Has USN ever thought about publishing the data you presented? I think it is interesting how USN has many more hours than other 4 year schools in the west and manages to shave a year off of pharmacy school.

On average, how many students typically remediate during that 4-5 week block?

 

[ultracet]

As far as USN and their contact hours are concerned...

If you are just using the credit hours at a 4 year school to compare it to what your in class time is, you are kidding yourself. That is comparing apples and oranges.

The fact is, just because a class is given a set number of credit hours doesn't mean that it only meets for that many hours per week. Yes, I realize that is the way it should be but it isnt.

For instance we had a 1 hour class that met TIW and had a lab. It was also much more work than our 6 hour class.

I believe courses are given this designation based on what the school deems important and as to not look like they "overload" the student with 30 hours/semester and keep it around 22

 

[dgroulx]

I have 11 weeks of class in the fall, 10 in winter, and 11 in spring. So, I'm in school for 32 out of 52 weeks for the first 3 years, plus 8 rotations x 4 weeks each (still 32) during the 4th. That's 128 weeks of school altogether. If they are going 38-40 weeks for 3 years, they are getting 114 to 120 weeks of school. I think we should to check our estimate of time spent at the 3 year school for accuracy using a few real life setups. Maybe some people here who attend the 3 year schools can describe their curriculum hours.

That's pretty close to mine. If I don't count final exam weeks, years 1 & 2 are 32 weeks each. Years 3 & 4 are 38 weeks. That totals 140 weeks of school over the 4 year period.

I also agree with bbmuffin, that you can't count credit hours and try to equate them to actual hours of lecture & lab time. I am taking 8 classes this semester for a total of 19 credit hours. They just list things as 2 credit hours, so they can cram in more classes.

 

[lisi]

That's pretty close to mine. If I don't count final exam weeks, years 1 & 2 are 32 weeks each. Years 3 & 4 are 38 weeks. That totals 140 weeks of school over the 4 year period.

I also agree with bbmuffin, that you can't count credit hours and try to equate them to actual hours of lecture & lab time. I am taking 8 classes this semester for a total of 19 credit hours. They just list things as 2 credit hours, so they can cram in more classes.

Both you and bbmuffin are incorrect. The credit hour/contact hour determination the way I laid them out is correct and is something that is monitored by accrediting agencies. Schools/Colleges/Universities can't just set them any way they please. The standard laboratory class conversion is 3 contact hours = 1 credit hour. These credit hour calculations are accurate and accrediting agencies would look askance at any school that diverted too much from these standards. In fact, one of the reasons we looked into this so carefully is because we wanted to make sure that our system of awarding credit hours was justifiable given the accreditation standards.

 

[lisi]

Has USN ever thought about publishing the data you presented? I think it is interesting how USN has many more hours than other 4 year schools in the west and manages to shave a year off of pharmacy school.

On average, how many students typically remediate during that 4-5 week block?

It depends....some blocks don't have anyone coming back in the summer, some blocks may have 10-15 (about 10% of the class), and some blocks only have 1 or 2. Students have exams about every two weeks, usually on a Friday. If they don't pass with a 90% the first time, they come back on Monday and take a different test over the same material. If they don't pass that one with 90%, they come back in the summer and review the material over the course of one week. The week culminates with an exam that they must pass at 90%.

 

[Smilescali]

At USN, the didactic portion of the P1 and P2 school years are each 36 weeks in length. Students are in class for 6 hours/day (8-3 with an hour off for lunch) for 9/10 days in a two week period. We've very carefully calculated the number of contact hours in the classroom recently for accreditation reports. To that end, there are 984 contact hours in the P1 year and 994 contact hours in the P2 year. There is also a short capstone didactic course that occurs during the P3 year just prior to graduation. There are 42 contact hours in this course. In total, USN's pharmacy program has 2020 didactic contact hours. Also for accreditation purposes, we compared our contact hours to both 3-yr and 4-yr programs in the western region. This was done by looking at credit hour breakdowns on their websites and converting semester or quarter credit hours to contact hours. (The conversion factors is 15 contact hours = 1 semester credit hour and 10 contact hours = 1 quarter credit hour). In total, we compared our didactic contact hours to five 4-year pharmacy programs and two 3-year pharmacy programs. For the comparator schools, the didactic contact hours ranged from a high of 1590 to a low of 1345. So even though USN has a 3 yr program, we have 430 more didactic contact hours than even the highest number of contact hours at the comparator school. Just as a reference, although we could have included more comparator schools, what I found is that most pharmacy programs average around 1500 didactic contact hours (+/- about 20 hours). Equating those additional contact hours to credit hours shows that didactically, USN has the equivalent of about 28-29 semester credit hours more or 43 quarter credit hours more. While this is not true of all 3-yr programs, it does point out that all 3-yr programs shouldn't be lumped together in comparisons to 4-yr programs.

As for experiential contact hours, USN has a total of 2000 credit hours. The typical conversion for experiential contact hours is 40 experiential contact hours (or one 40-hr week) = 1 credit hour, so USN's experiential curriculum is the equivalent of 50 weeks in length.

Our students get about 1 week off for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks off for the holidays, and a couple of days off in the spring for spring break. They also have a six-week break during the summer, unless they need to remediate didactic coursework in which they didn't achieve the 90% passing standard on an exam. The P3 experiential year starts as soon as the P2 year is completed; however, one 6-week rotation block is scheduled as an "off" block.

Students must also have a minimum of 60 additional elective didactic contact hours or 240 additional elective experiential hours.

My point is that it is possible to have a 3-yr program in which the course content isn't "lost" or "crammed" in. It can, and it does work.

I also am glad to see that this discussion has gotten to what the original posting suggested--a critical review. Any critical reveiw requires that statements be backed up with fact, so I applaud the last few posts that have begun exploring mechanisms to make evidence-based comparisons between and among programs.

Lisi,
Thank you for the clarification and presenting the facts on this matter as they relate to the accrediation standards for pharmacy schools. I found this post very informative and helpful.

 

[bananaface]

Both you and bbmuffin are incorrect. The credit hour/contact hour determination the way I laid them out is correct and is something that is monitored by accrediting agencies. Schools/Colleges/Universities can't just set them any way they please. The standard laboratory class conversion is 3 contact hours = 1 credit hour. These credit hour calculations are accurate and accrediting agencies would look askance at any school that diverted too much from these standards. In fact, one of the reasons we looked into this so carefully is because we wanted to make sure that our system of awarding credit hours was justifiable given the accreditation standards.

I have some professors I'd like you to speak to.

Our faculty has at times in the past openly acknowledged making a couple of the courses worth fewer credits than would be warranted by contact hours, so that we can take more electives during certain quarters without paying extra tuition. The Dean's fund paying the extra tuition for when we take over 18 credits may have something to do with the effort to keep down our number of credit hours. At the same time, some electives we take are 3 credits and should only be worth 2. It's give and take, I guess.

 

[ultracet]

Both you and bbmuffin are incorrect. The credit hour/contact hour determination the way I laid them out is correct and is something that is monitored by accrediting agencies. Schools/Colleges/Universities can't just set them any way they please. The standard laboratory class conversion is 3 contact hours = 1 credit hour. These credit hour calculations are accurate and accrediting agencies would look askance at any school that diverted too much from these standards. In fact, one of the reasons we looked into this so carefully is because we wanted to make sure that our system of awarding credit hours was justifiable given the accreditation standards.

It seems that there is a trend on here with regards to individuals in 4 year schools.

I understand the accreditation process and exactly what you are saying.

I understand you all worked very closely with them and that's great as it seems not many schools do.

However I believe a more accurate comparison would be credit hours to credit hours or class schedule to class schedule.

I am fully aware that 3 hrs of lab=1 hr as well as 2 hours of PBL= 1 credit hour..

This is an issue that our students fight with every semester with our classes

Our 6 hour classes are 10 in class hours

We do have some classes that adhere to the expectations but by no means is it all of them.

and apparently they don't care too much when it comes to accreditation as we were just reaccredited for 6 more years....

 

[dgroulx]

However I believe a more accurate comparison would be credit hours to credit hours or class schedule to class schedule.

That would be more accurate, but really hard to accomplish. I have so many projects assigned to me that have to be completed during "my time". I am assuming that 3 year schools also have about 30 hours of assignments to do each week on top of their normal class meeting times. I pretty much multiply my credit hours by 3 to see how much work needs to be done.

For instance, late Wednesday the day before Thanksgiving, a pharmacogenomics project was posted on Blackboard. It had 13 research questions on it, plus one extra credit problem. We had Thursday & Friday off for Thanksgiving, but not really, because of the assignment. If you went out of town for the holidays, you missed the assignment. Hell, we had assignments posted during the summer that were due on the first day back to school. How do you measure this in credit hours?

 

[ultracet]

That would be more accurate, but really hard to accomplish. I have so many projects assigned to me that have to be completed during "my time". I am assuming that 3 year schools also have about 30 hours of assignments to do each week on top of their normal class meeting times. I pretty much multiply my credit hours by 3 to see how much work needs to be done.

For instance, late Wednesday the day before Thanksgiving, a pharmacogenomics project was posted on Blackboard. It had 13 research questions on it, plus one extra credit problem. We had Thursday & Friday off for Thanksgiving, but not really, because of the assignment. If you went out of town for the holidays, you missed the assignment. Hell, we had assignments posted during the summer that were due on the first day back to school. How do you measure this in credit hours?

I agree but i think that everyone has crap like that to happen...
we do anyway...
and thus i think it would balance out between schools
but perhaps there are schools out there who don't do that....


anyone know?

 

[lisi]

It seems that there is a trend on here with regards to individuals in 4 year schools.

I understand the accreditation process and exactly what you are saying.

I understand you all worked very closely with them and that's great as it seems not many schools do.

However I believe a more accurate comparison would be credit hours to credit hours or class schedule to class schedule.

I am fully aware that 3 hrs of lab=1 hr as well as 2 hours of PBL= 1 credit hour..

This is an issue that our students fight with every semester with our classes

Our 6 hour classes are 10 in class hours

We do have some classes that adhere to the expectations but by no means is it all of them.

and apparently they don't care too much when it comes to accreditation as we were just reaccredited for 6 more years....

I should have been more clear regarding accreditation...the regional accrediting agencies are the ones that are more of the sticklers regarding credit hours. They typically want to assure that credit hour assignments conform pretty closely to identifiable norms, but perhaps even more importantly, they'll look at the institution overall to ensure that policies regarding credit hours are fairly uniform across all programs. What was asserted earlier was that faculty arbitrarily set credit hours to best suit a particular objective (like keeping the total number of hours down, so it doesn't appear that students are overloaded). Institutionally, there should be some internal policy regarding how credit hours are calculated. I know at least in my experience that there was a specific accreditation standard from the regional accrediting agency directed at credit hours and credit hour determination and we spent a couple of pages of text with supporting tables and figures regarding our method of awarding credit hours in our self-study just to make sure that our method met that standard.

ACPE typically wouldn't get involved with credit hour determinations--none of their accreditation standards are directed at a method of converting class time/lab time/experiential time into credit hours.

 

[museabuse]

I have 11 weeks of class in the fall, 10 in winter, and 11 in spring. So, I'm in school for 32 out of 52 weeks for the first 3 years, plus 8 rotations x 4 weeks each (still 32) during the 4th. That's 128 weeks of school altogether. If they are going 38-40 weeks for 3 years, they are getting 114 to 120 weeks of school. I think we should to check our estimate of time spent at the 3 year school for accuracy using a few real life setups. Maybe some people here who attend the 3 year schools can describe their curriculum hours.

At MWU... there are 8 quarters and each quarter consists of 11 weeks of classroom. So 88 weeks of schooling. In between quarter 4 and 5 we have 2 rotations(one hospital and one retail) each 5 weeks. THen after 8th quarter we have 6 rotations(you have to do one hospital, one retail and one faculty rotation, the rest is up to u) each 5 weeks. That adds up to a total of 128 weeks of school all together.

I also work 15-20 hours a week while in school and worked full time as a tech for 2 years prior. I will have plenty of experience when i graduate.

I am 30 years old and I know I want to be a pharmacist. I want to get through school as fast as possible and get on with my life( that does not mean I am going to have less knowledge than if I went to a four year school).

Also whether it is three or four years it doesn't matter. It is what YOU put into it. I could go to a four year and party all the time and not retain crap. I could go to a three year school and study every day and retain a lot(or the other way around).

If anyone feels cheated then maybe they didn't teach themselves enough... you can't rely on your professors to tell you everything you need to know... If you want to learn it all and retain a lot you have to be proactive. People do not become experts because someone handed everything to them on a platter... they took their begining education and ran with it by reading journals, trials, databses, other text books, etc....

 

[dgroulx]

I could go to a four year and party all the time and not retain crap.

You would also flunk out. I can honestly tell you that there are not enough hours in the day to keep on top of the work load at my school. We already have people repeating an entire year of school, who didn't party. Those that chose to party, failed when they repeated and are no longer in the program.

If you don't retain what was taught in the previous semester, you have to relearn it quickly or else you will flunk the next semester and have to repeat an entire year. In year three, they are still popping questions for things I learned back in year one. You have to retain your learning in order to advance.

Remember the purpose of this thread is to compare programs.

 

[museabuse]

You would also flunk out.
Remember the purpose of this thread is to compare programs.

Maybe that was the wrong example... there are people that do enough just to pass(probably don't retain much)... then there are people that study all the time and retain a lot of the info. All I am saying is it doesn't matter if it is 3 or 4 years, its what you put in is what you can get out.
Every class at my 3 year programs builds on what you have already learned. Many things pop up and you are expected to understand it. If not, then you have to study harder.

I can say that there were only a couple in my class who did not make it to year two. But that is not the case with previous classes. Perhaps now that there are a lot more qualified students to choose from the admissions office is doing a better job at weeding out the ones that would not cut it. Perhaps it also has to do with the fact that the average age of my class is 29. Most of us are not distracted by many things that younger students are distracted by.
Just from comparing the two schools in arizona... one a private 3 year program... and one a public 4 year program... the class demographics are different... ie. age, sex, race. We have more older students, more men, and I would venture to say less minorities than the public institution. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing just something that is different between the two schools.